For the sake of conversation, let's say that the economy doesn't see any real job growth for another 5 years. At that point you have 100,000 people with degrees but no experience and thousands more (like me) with experience but who have been out of work for a while. My point is that it could take a decade to dig back out of the hole to a pre-2007 employment level. I should go back for a nursing degree; people are always getting sick. Plus, I look awesome in scrubs.
iheartbooks makes the right point: it's not that there are too many people coming out of architecture schools, it's that there is currently too much competition among those grads for the available traditional firm positions.
According to Daniel Pink, every architecture grad has the "design mind" thinking/problem solving skills that are in high demand in business these days. So maybe a detour to another field is a good idea for fresh grads?
yeah we need to get them interested in other fields so that I dont have so much competition for a job LOL
don't schools regulate how many they graduate based on the market?
a study a few years ago by the aia said that not enough were being graduated to meet the market demands
if only they knew what we know now
unemployment nationally may remain absurdly high for at least a decade.
I wonder if it is time to start asking some difficult questions, including whether or not we need to start looking at the number of H1-B and L-1 visas out there with an eye to decreasing the number of new ones or cancelling those held by people who are laid off. I don't bring this up to be controversial, and I hesitate to bring this up at all, not least because I don't really know what I think about it, and any change would effect friends potentially. On the other hand, one part of me thinks that in difficult times citizenship, legal immigration and birth status have to have some advantage. I only to ask in the spirit of ensuring that all policy options are being considered by our elected leaders. Other countries have started sending non-immigrant foreign workers home, and ours is one profession where there seem to be a lot of visa-holders.
What do you think? Is this something the country needs to start reviewing?
I'd like to think that Liberty Bell/Daniel Pink is right and there is a fringe demand for architects in other markets; however without seeing a lot of proof that architects are indeed finding these opportunities it's a little hard to believe. I often find that the architects profiled in the "alternative careers" sections (like the "out of the box" series here on Archinect) are often well-connected and independently wealthy people who could do whatever they want anyway. At the very least it seems like the "alternative career" offerings are usually easier to find when the job market has more jobs than applicants and businesses are more likely to take a chance on someone outside their narrow search requirements because so few people have applied.
That said, I am reserving Daniel's book right now from the public library (got to love free resources) to see if it provides a change of perspective.
I think there are alternative careers for architects - after all, I'm kind of in one myself, but one has to recognize that the profession would be in serious trouble if alternative careers were to become the typical career. The profession is only healthy if the vast majority of us who have training in the field are actually employed in it.
"we need to start looking at the number of H1-B and L-1 visas out there with an eye to decreasing the number of new ones or cancelling those held by people who are laid off"
just fyi, work visas are automatically canceled for people who are laid off, without even as much as a grace period to make leaving arrangements.
When I started in this profession, it still was quite common for many firms to employ a fairly high percentage of studio staff who were NOT graduate architects. These were 'drafters' and few aspired to design.
Around this time, the schools began to grow and graduate many more 'professionals' who inevitably supplanted the 'drafters' and competed with each other for whatever design opportunity existed. Despite periodic labor shortages, wages for the rank and file eroded across the board, reflecting the inevitable laws of supply and demand.
In "the old days" downturns inevitably led to staff reductions - largely among the drafting staff, just like today. The big difference - displaced 'drafters' could find work drafting in other industries. That seems an unlikely scenario for unemployed graduate architects.
I've argued for years that the academy just doesn't get it and probably never will. It's not in the school's economic interests to curtail enrollment. For antitrust reasons, the profession (through AIA) is relatively powerless to limit the numbers aspiring to enter architecture.
This is not an optimistic assessment. The schools are not controllable and unlikely to change unless their students rebel. I personally believe the schools' arguments that their graduates are well prepared to pursue careers 'alternative' to traditional practice are both wrong and irresponsible.
^ Of course. I think the point is that the market is literally saturated with out-of-work architects facing the prospects of being out of the profession for some time to come. In the face of this crisis, alternatice careers are perhaps the only way some of us will be able to make a livelihood.
I think academia now more than ever has a responsibility to their students to educate them about these other avenues...which takes a little more than a 30 minute presentation in a professional practice course. And for those of us outside of academia, it would be helpful to learn from others on this forum how they pursued/acquired work outside of the field (field meaning anything construction/design related...I am interested to hear from people who put their "design mind" to use in something totally unrelated to architecture).
Yes, I agree we could be looking at a decade to get back to where we were, maybe it will never "come back".
There is significantly less building activity, so without that, no architecture jobs. Top that off with the fact that banks are not lending for projects, and we have the perfect storm.
I can't stress how important the bank lending is, how many clients do you know that have all the money on hand in cash to build? It is the start of everything in the process.
Some of my colleagues think this is a "healthy correction", I disagree. I think this will have more downward pressure on salaries (and fees), that is if you can even find a job.
Sorry, wish I was more optimistic, but yes, I think taking your skills and re-inventing your role in the workplace is the only way to go.
Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers:
"I personally believe the schools' arguments that their graduates are well prepared to pursue careers 'alternative' to traditional practice are both wrong and irresponsible. "
"Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers:"
I read somewhere that thousands of NEW visas are being granted every month under the two Programs, include some 45,000 in 2009 for companies getting TARP funding and contracting jobs under ARRA projects. I guess my question is, in a recession as serious as this one shouldn't the number of new guest worker visas be zero? And should we consider doing what many European countries are now doing and paying visa holders to go home?
WinstonSmith: Respectfully, what's your point, please? Are you suggesting US design firms are trying to hire overseas labor at the expense of unemployed domestic graduates? If so, I find that hard to embrace - the added complexity would not be worthwhile in this economy. There's just too much available labor already in-country.
It's an interesting and difficult problem. The EU and Australia both utilize systems that really limit the amount of foreign labor moving into their countries and basically give preference to their own citizens. While the US isn't exactly welcoming everyone to come here and work, we aren't exactly turning away foreign applicants either.
In some ways, it's really nice that we can look forward to a diverse and multi-cultural workplace that can really benefit from a vast knowledge base. However it does seem like a problem when US citizens are shut out of their own country in the name of diversity. I personally face this daily living in a state that gives employment preference to Native Americans and people of Hispanic descent.
All in all, I don't think there is an easy answer.
I'm a great supporter of immigration and I wouldn't want to see that change. The use of immigration as a means to create a more dynamic and diverse America is a time tested American institution, and should continue.
Guest workers are not, however, immigrants. There are two reasons for guest workers according to stated US policy: H1 visas are intended to attract non-immigrant foreigners to fill US labor shortages, primarily in technical industries during boom times. L1 visas are intended to facilitate foreign direct investment by enabling foreign companies to send their managers to help run US manufacturing plant they build here.
Which begs the question: should we continue to issue those visas in large numbers when there is no labor shortage and when there isn't much FDI to be had?
If we expect the recession to be short and sharp and we expect to be short of architects within a year or so, then we should by all means continue to invite new and qualified guest workers in. But what happens if we expect the recession to be prolonged and the industry to permanently shrink?
I agree it's a tough problem, but this really isn't about our country's diversity. One doesn't buld diversity with guest workers.
quizzical, very nice post above (your perspective one).
Schools really do not have any reason to lessen enrollment, and if fancy graphics programs can attract more students, why not? On the other hand, I do think some schools are starting to embrace the idea of cross-discipline creative thinking - Ball State has a class combining business and architecture students, and I think UK is starting something similar as well.
I happen to be teaching a pro practice class this semester, .._. .._ _._. _._, and I've spent WAY more than 30 minutes talking to my students about alternative careers! It's painful, I see it in their faces, but I'm trying to help them think about goals other than finding an internship in a traditional firm right after graduation, because I doubt that will happen for the majority of them.
Actually the EU and Australian governments have been even more erosive of their citizen's wages and quality of life than the U.S. the last twenty years (if that is even conceivable). I think the fact that I posted that video earlier kind of goes to show that I've been researching the colonization of the West for many years now.
England is not the England my generation and earlier would like to think it still is...its gone. Same thing with every major City in the U.S..
Look up the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965...and in particular what everyone's favorite drunken traitorous senator (now deceased thank the Lord) said when he passed it...your jaw very might well hit the floor.
quizzical: actually, yeah. i've encountered this once recently: last spring, right before i was going to graduate i received a call from my mother, who said she saw a help wanted ad for a very high profile chicago firm (basically, high profile enough that it caught her eye). this was in a low circulation suburban weekly that's delivered to subscription holders by usps.
in disbelief (i sort of thought it was a scam), i called the firm to ask about the ad. the first two people i spoke with were pretty sure that there was no ad, and that the firm wasn't hiring anyone new. it wasn't until a third individual mentioned, oh, that must be the ad placed by the lawyer so that we can keep visas for some non-citizen who was working/getting hired/whatever. so basically, they had some lawyers place an ad that was purposely cheap and not going to get a lot of responses that they'd have to deal with.
pretty sad and disenchanting, i think. i mean WHY go through all of this WHEN there are plenty of eager and qualified people do that job and you wouldn't have to pay a lawyer, pay for the visas, and deal with all this bs. i had forgotten about this until i read this thread.
Architecture is supposed to be one six high priority labor shortage areas and thus one of the single largest guest worker industries. I haven't seen cumulative stats, but in 2009, SOM, Genzler and RTKL were among the largest users of the program, with KPF, Vinoly, Perkins Eastman and HOK not too far behind, according to the State Dept.
Urbanist, WOW, I had no idea. Sounds like a news story in there somewhere....
If we were able to compile some solid stats, I bet we could get that in the papers (I have some media contacts).
For instance from my informal poll, I peg the unemployment rate for architects in the %40 to %50 range, and that’s not taking into account the partime, reduced salaries etc...
So with that backdrop, if the gov't is identifying this field as an area where we need to bring in outside workers, well that seems to be a rhetorical argument.
On a side note, here is an interesting Bill Moyers piece which just aired on the implications of the recent supreme court decision:
I can verify that at least one major Chicago firm had guest workers employed during the last recession in 2001-2002 after cutting a large portion of the local staff. This firm did a lot of international work and was able to pay the workers less than market rate and gained native speakers for the country where the projects were located. I was shocked at the time not that they wanted foreign language speakers but that they were paid significantly less than other staff. I know this because a personal acquaintance was a middle manager at the firm. But in the broad scope as it relates to architecture, H1 visa holders are not a significant threat to the industry. The greater threat in my opinion is the diminished capacity for Architectural grads and even recently licensed individuals to think mechanically and execute appropriately. In short I see the Architects continuing to get less qualified to the job beyond being a traffic cop for design. Part of this is in no small way related to the continuing bifurcation of the design process into smaller and more specialized packages. The owner wants one stop shopping but unfortunately its become too litigious to provide it. Maybe this is where the AIA should be focusing it's energy- the lobbying for more protective insurance laws for design professionals. As it stands the AIA documents do a lot to protect us but at the expense of us having to farm out much more of the risk, thus the rewards. I have, despite being very small and having inconsistent workflow, been able to do very well for myself by taking on risk other architects will not. I will design my own mechanical systems often with the help of HVAC contractors and I will do my own structural engineering to the horror of my insurance broker. But for that I can keep more of the fee for myself. I didn't set out to practice this way but when having a mortgage and kids to feed ( now grown thank god ) and staring at paltry fees one gets brave enough to take it all. This recession just might force many sole practitioners to the same.
Think about how many times you may have heard comments such as, "We designed it and had an Architect draw it up" or "It was basically our idea " - this is what the buyer is thinking in many cases. They do not and can not in many cases comprehend what it is we have provided. To think the pure part of design, the idea, is what we are hired to do only is to misunderstand what our clients are hiring us for - the execution of the vision for which we are expected to be expert. Some experienced buyers will know better and are a joy to work for, but the vast majority will find a graph paper sketch and a stack of Better Homes and Gardens was the design. It is like working for a first year Architecture student feeling their oats for the first time except in this case they write the check. This is why you have to be expert in order to quietly assert your authority over the design idea and execution, you need to logically and rational discount design move based on fact, because you can not win a battle of ideas with someone who is paying you.
LB_ It's good to know that some schools are making the effort to educate their students about the profession. I think too many schools are purposefully blind to issues regarding the profession in a larger sense (i.e. this isn't another rant about not learning CD's in school).
It's interesting to note that other professions have measures in place to somewhat regulate the amount of college graduates. Veterinarians have to apply to an association that regulates colleges that offer Vet programs in addition to the schools they are applying for and have to get accepted from both to move on with their studies. Although it does make the application process that much more of a hassle, there is a much stronger connection between academics and profession. It's easy to see how NCARB or the AIA could step up and fill this role...although I fear that they would use it as an opportunity to make money rather than provide any real service.
These salaries seem low to me, which makes me suspect that these firms are trying to hire relatively junior people cheaply. Also, wasn't the a year when nobody was supposed to be hiring?
it's a competitive business now more than ever. if you want to sit behind a desk, do a little work, and collect a paycheck, you're probable going to have to move on to another field. most will probably say, "that's not me," but then, when i look at a thread like this, or from my own observations pre- and post-great recession, there were a hell of a lot of people that wanted to do just that. everyone that's left from management down to the lowest intern is going to have to prove why they belong through their intelligence, design-ability, risk-taking, or management skills. i don't see anything changing anytime soon, so be ready to get out there and work your ass off, or start looking for a different line of work.
wow - lots of threads of thought flowing on this thread.
with regards to foreign workers here: it just smells like really bad policy to start arbitrarily cutting off work visas. not only from the disruption it places on those people, but also from the standpoint that i just can't see that being something that will ultimately benefit the profession overall. i know, if you're unemployed right now, that it's really tempting to see this as a matter of someone else potentially 'taking' your job, but the health of our country depends on the flow of ideas that people who come here (legally) bring with them. most of the firms we think of as the most creative tend, i've noticed, tend to have a fairly diverse staff all the way around.
remember people: the banks are more responsible for this mess than anyone inside the profession itself.
I sat down and spoke with the President of a local arch and engineering firm in my area who was very obviously of foreign extraction (indian). His accent was very thick. He told me that he was recently made the president. The name of the firm is the last two names of two obviously very authenticaslly american surnames.
I would disagree the banks are more responsible. A handful of very high level connected "investment" banks with the help or many in DC our responsible. The average local commercial lending bank was not dealing with swap contracts, or at least did know they were feeding the beast from upstream. To say the healthy flow of ideas comes from diversity of staff via H1 visas is like saying staff without H1 visa holders are not capable of ideas. That is wrong.
If H1 visa holders are not paying FICA taxes than its an unfair advantage for the foreign worker over the local.
he.. Hellmuth Obata Kassebaum shows up four times.. must be different offices.
outed, I didn't say anything about cancelling valid visas... just looking into limiting new ones granted and not replacing those relinquished. The program was designed to alleviate actual shortages, not to facilitate low wage exploitation. If it's a loophole, then one can argue that loophole should be closed. The schools may not be willing to police the # of graduates, but one can argue that it is a Federal goverent responsibility to police their own programs. Those salaries make my suspect that the bulk
of those hires were recent grads.
also, one theory on the h1b visas...most of the firms on urbanist's list are large firms with projects overseas. one of the reasons why they are hiring so many foreign workers is to help staff overseas projects. our firm recently started acquiring work china, and we hired three chinese interns to help with language and cultural barriers in the design process. there is a reason why firms are hiring h1b staff, and it's not for a lack of american talent; it's simply that h1b workers have language skills that are highly in demand right now.
I pulled that up using the fedstats app (a government stats search engine application), but the source is USCIS, Dept of Homeland Security. I'm sure you can it off www.uscis.gov somewhere. I can't link stuff odd the app. All these stats are public record.
Actually Jaf, at a previous employer (one of the firms on that list), virtually all but one of the juniors on my team were Chinese and Indian nationals, and we were working exclusively on domestic projects... mostly upstate and in NJ.
From what Ive found H1 are required to pay FICA but F-1 are not however H1 holders from a country in which the US has a tax treaty on this topic can be exempt, be entitled to a refund upon leaving the country or be taxed at a rate which will be transferred to the program of their home country if they choose.
Jafidler, interestingly, with that team, I actually tried to go out and get China work just because I wanted to give the people my bosses were hiring work to do they would find personally rewarding, in their own country, as opposed to the "sustainable" suburban subdivisions that are my own stock in trade.
I don't think they're starting salaries.. just relatively junior. Unless they're really experienced people getting paid pathetically. It's hard to tell. Homeland Security doesn't disclose what those people were paid to do.. just the average salaries.
Most big firms start M.Arch grads at 45-55k I thought.
I don't really know how to interpret those salaries. I was more interested in the number if hires. Anecdotally, I do know that one big firm on that list (not the one I was working for) was paying an experienced foreign national, GSD M.Arch with about 10yrs US experience and licensed in San Fran about 67k last year, but she wasn't a new hire. That seemed low to me.
Are we approaching critical mass?
too many architects out there?
WAYYYY too many graduates is the problem. Keeps pricing the architects with experience out of the market.
I think the school are graduating something like 18,000 fresh bloods a year or something like that.
I don't know if too many architects are the problem.
Architects have a great deal to offer society. We might even benefit from having more people that think like them in the world.
I think the problem is that too many people want to practice architecture in the traditional sense.
Young designers could, and may now have too, have a meaningful impact on different parts of society, rather then just buildings.
Wouldn't it be something to have an architect in the white house?
We need more positive, optimistic discussions and comments on Archinect. Questions like “too many architects out there” don’t help anyone.
I agree with Piggy. Too many architects out there. Too many coming fresh out of school especially.
For the sake of conversation, let's say that the economy doesn't see any real job growth for another 5 years. At that point you have 100,000 people with degrees but no experience and thousands more (like me) with experience but who have been out of work for a while. My point is that it could take a decade to dig back out of the hole to a pre-2007 employment level. I should go back for a nursing degree; people are always getting sick. Plus, I look awesome in scrubs.
iheartbooks makes the right point: it's not that there are too many people coming out of architecture schools, it's that there is currently too much competition among those grads for the available traditional firm positions.
According to Daniel Pink, every architecture grad has the "design mind" thinking/problem solving skills that are in high demand in business these days. So maybe a detour to another field is a good idea for fresh grads?
yeah we need to get them interested in other fields so that I dont have so much competition for a job LOL
don't schools regulate how many they graduate based on the market?
a study a few years ago by the aia said that not enough were being graduated to meet the market demands
if only they knew what we know now
nasty news in the NYT today:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35504954/ns/business-the_new_york_times/
unemployment nationally may remain absurdly high for at least a decade.
I wonder if it is time to start asking some difficult questions, including whether or not we need to start looking at the number of H1-B and L-1 visas out there with an eye to decreasing the number of new ones or cancelling those held by people who are laid off. I don't bring this up to be controversial, and I hesitate to bring this up at all, not least because I don't really know what I think about it, and any change would effect friends potentially. On the other hand, one part of me thinks that in difficult times citizenship, legal immigration and birth status have to have some advantage. I only to ask in the spirit of ensuring that all policy options are being considered by our elected leaders. Other countries have started sending non-immigrant foreign workers home, and ours is one profession where there seem to be a lot of visa-holders.
What do you think? Is this something the country needs to start reviewing?
I'd like to think that Liberty Bell/Daniel Pink is right and there is a fringe demand for architects in other markets; however without seeing a lot of proof that architects are indeed finding these opportunities it's a little hard to believe. I often find that the architects profiled in the "alternative careers" sections (like the "out of the box" series here on Archinect) are often well-connected and independently wealthy people who could do whatever they want anyway. At the very least it seems like the "alternative career" offerings are usually easier to find when the job market has more jobs than applicants and businesses are more likely to take a chance on someone outside their narrow search requirements because so few people have applied.
That said, I am reserving Daniel's book right now from the public library (got to love free resources) to see if it provides a change of perspective.
I think there are alternative careers for architects - after all, I'm kind of in one myself, but one has to recognize that the profession would be in serious trouble if alternative careers were to become the typical career. The profession is only healthy if the vast majority of us who have training in the field are actually employed in it.
"we need to start looking at the number of H1-B and L-1 visas out there with an eye to decreasing the number of new ones or cancelling those held by people who are laid off"
just fyi, work visas are automatically canceled for people who are laid off, without even as much as a grace period to make leaving arrangements.
Here's one person's perspective.
When I started in this profession, it still was quite common for many firms to employ a fairly high percentage of studio staff who were NOT graduate architects. These were 'drafters' and few aspired to design.
Around this time, the schools began to grow and graduate many more 'professionals' who inevitably supplanted the 'drafters' and competed with each other for whatever design opportunity existed. Despite periodic labor shortages, wages for the rank and file eroded across the board, reflecting the inevitable laws of supply and demand.
In "the old days" downturns inevitably led to staff reductions - largely among the drafting staff, just like today. The big difference - displaced 'drafters' could find work drafting in other industries. That seems an unlikely scenario for unemployed graduate architects.
I've argued for years that the academy just doesn't get it and probably never will. It's not in the school's economic interests to curtail enrollment. For antitrust reasons, the profession (through AIA) is relatively powerless to limit the numbers aspiring to enter architecture.
This is not an optimistic assessment. The schools are not controllable and unlikely to change unless their students rebel. I personally believe the schools' arguments that their graduates are well prepared to pursue careers 'alternative' to traditional practice are both wrong and irresponsible.
^ Of course. I think the point is that the market is literally saturated with out-of-work architects facing the prospects of being out of the profession for some time to come. In the face of this crisis, alternatice careers are perhaps the only way some of us will be able to make a livelihood.
I think academia now more than ever has a responsibility to their students to educate them about these other avenues...which takes a little more than a 30 minute presentation in a professional practice course. And for those of us outside of academia, it would be helpful to learn from others on this forum how they pursued/acquired work outside of the field (field meaning anything construction/design related...I am interested to hear from people who put their "design mind" to use in something totally unrelated to architecture).
Yes, I agree we could be looking at a decade to get back to where we were, maybe it will never "come back".
There is significantly less building activity, so without that, no architecture jobs. Top that off with the fact that banks are not lending for projects, and we have the perfect storm.
I can't stress how important the bank lending is, how many clients do you know that have all the money on hand in cash to build? It is the start of everything in the process.
Some of my colleagues think this is a "healthy correction", I disagree. I think this will have more downward pressure on salaries (and fees), that is if you can even find a job.
Sorry, wish I was more optimistic, but yes, I think taking your skills and re-inventing your role in the workplace is the only way to go.
Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFE...eature=related
"I personally believe the schools' arguments that their graduates are well prepared to pursue careers 'alternative' to traditional practice are both wrong and irresponsible. "
absolutely.
this is incredible:
"Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers:"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
thanks ckl. I didn't know that.
I read somewhere that thousands of NEW visas are being granted every month under the two Programs, include some 45,000 in 2009 for companies getting TARP funding and contracting jobs under ARRA projects. I guess my question is, in a recession as serious as this one shouldn't the number of new guest worker visas be zero? And should we consider doing what many European countries are now doing and paying visa holders to go home?
WinstonSmith: Respectfully, what's your point, please? Are you suggesting US design firms are trying to hire overseas labor at the expense of unemployed domestic graduates? If so, I find that hard to embrace - the added complexity would not be worthwhile in this economy. There's just too much available labor already in-country.
My 2006 MArch graduate class had a huge number of H-1 visas, and the MS building science program I think was 100% H-1 visa.
It's an interesting and difficult problem. The EU and Australia both utilize systems that really limit the amount of foreign labor moving into their countries and basically give preference to their own citizens. While the US isn't exactly welcoming everyone to come here and work, we aren't exactly turning away foreign applicants either.
In some ways, it's really nice that we can look forward to a diverse and multi-cultural workplace that can really benefit from a vast knowledge base. However it does seem like a problem when US citizens are shut out of their own country in the name of diversity. I personally face this daily living in a state that gives employment preference to Native Americans and people of Hispanic descent.
All in all, I don't think there is an easy answer.
I'm a great supporter of immigration and I wouldn't want to see that change. The use of immigration as a means to create a more dynamic and diverse America is a time tested American institution, and should continue.
Guest workers are not, however, immigrants. There are two reasons for guest workers according to stated US policy: H1 visas are intended to attract non-immigrant foreigners to fill US labor shortages, primarily in technical industries during boom times. L1 visas are intended to facilitate foreign direct investment by enabling foreign companies to send their managers to help run US manufacturing plant they build here.
Which begs the question: should we continue to issue those visas in large numbers when there is no labor shortage and when there isn't much FDI to be had?
If we expect the recession to be short and sharp and we expect to be short of architects within a year or so, then we should by all means continue to invite new and qualified guest workers in. But what happens if we expect the recession to be prolonged and the industry to permanently shrink?
I agree it's a tough problem, but this really isn't about our country's diversity. One doesn't buld diversity with guest workers.
quizzical, very nice post above (your perspective one).
Schools really do not have any reason to lessen enrollment, and if fancy graphics programs can attract more students, why not? On the other hand, I do think some schools are starting to embrace the idea of cross-discipline creative thinking - Ball State has a class combining business and architecture students, and I think UK is starting something similar as well.
I happen to be teaching a pro practice class this semester, .._. .._ _._. _._, and I've spent WAY more than 30 minutes talking to my students about alternative careers! It's painful, I see it in their faces, but I'm trying to help them think about goals other than finding an internship in a traditional firm right after graduation, because I doubt that will happen for the majority of them.
Actually the EU and Australian governments have been even more erosive of their citizen's wages and quality of life than the U.S. the last twenty years (if that is even conceivable). I think the fact that I posted that video earlier kind of goes to show that I've been researching the colonization of the West for many years now.
England is not the England my generation and earlier would like to think it still is...its gone. Same thing with every major City in the U.S..
Look up the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965...and in particular what everyone's favorite drunken traitorous senator (now deceased thank the Lord) said when he passed it...your jaw very might well hit the floor.
I have no idea, but how many work visas are issued for architecture jobs? I have never thought about this topic to be honest.
quizzical: actually, yeah. i've encountered this once recently: last spring, right before i was going to graduate i received a call from my mother, who said she saw a help wanted ad for a very high profile chicago firm (basically, high profile enough that it caught her eye). this was in a low circulation suburban weekly that's delivered to subscription holders by usps.
in disbelief (i sort of thought it was a scam), i called the firm to ask about the ad. the first two people i spoke with were pretty sure that there was no ad, and that the firm wasn't hiring anyone new. it wasn't until a third individual mentioned, oh, that must be the ad placed by the lawyer so that we can keep visas for some non-citizen who was working/getting hired/whatever. so basically, they had some lawyers place an ad that was purposely cheap and not going to get a lot of responses that they'd have to deal with.
pretty sad and disenchanting, i think. i mean WHY go through all of this WHEN there are plenty of eager and qualified people do that job and you wouldn't have to pay a lawyer, pay for the visas, and deal with all this bs. i had forgotten about this until i read this thread.
Gibson
Architecture is supposed to be one six high priority labor shortage areas and thus one of the single largest guest worker industries. I haven't seen cumulative stats, but in 2009, SOM, Genzler and RTKL were among the largest users of the program, with KPF, Vinoly, Perkins Eastman and HOK not too far behind, according to the State Dept.
Urbanist, WOW, I had no idea. Sounds like a news story in there somewhere....
If we were able to compile some solid stats, I bet we could get that in the papers (I have some media contacts).
For instance from my informal poll, I peg the unemployment rate for architects in the %40 to %50 range, and that’s not taking into account the partime, reduced salaries etc...
So with that backdrop, if the gov't is identifying this field as an area where we need to bring in outside workers, well that seems to be a rhetorical argument.
On a side note, here is an interesting Bill Moyers piece which just aired on the implications of the recent supreme court decision:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
I can verify that at least one major Chicago firm had guest workers employed during the last recession in 2001-2002 after cutting a large portion of the local staff. This firm did a lot of international work and was able to pay the workers less than market rate and gained native speakers for the country where the projects were located. I was shocked at the time not that they wanted foreign language speakers but that they were paid significantly less than other staff. I know this because a personal acquaintance was a middle manager at the firm. But in the broad scope as it relates to architecture, H1 visa holders are not a significant threat to the industry. The greater threat in my opinion is the diminished capacity for Architectural grads and even recently licensed individuals to think mechanically and execute appropriately. In short I see the Architects continuing to get less qualified to the job beyond being a traffic cop for design. Part of this is in no small way related to the continuing bifurcation of the design process into smaller and more specialized packages. The owner wants one stop shopping but unfortunately its become too litigious to provide it. Maybe this is where the AIA should be focusing it's energy- the lobbying for more protective insurance laws for design professionals. As it stands the AIA documents do a lot to protect us but at the expense of us having to farm out much more of the risk, thus the rewards. I have, despite being very small and having inconsistent workflow, been able to do very well for myself by taking on risk other architects will not. I will design my own mechanical systems often with the help of HVAC contractors and I will do my own structural engineering to the horror of my insurance broker. But for that I can keep more of the fee for myself. I didn't set out to practice this way but when having a mortgage and kids to feed ( now grown thank god ) and staring at paltry fees one gets brave enough to take it all. This recession just might force many sole practitioners to the same.
Think about how many times you may have heard comments such as, "We designed it and had an Architect draw it up" or "It was basically our idea " - this is what the buyer is thinking in many cases. They do not and can not in many cases comprehend what it is we have provided. To think the pure part of design, the idea, is what we are hired to do only is to misunderstand what our clients are hiring us for - the execution of the vision for which we are expected to be expert. Some experienced buyers will know better and are a joy to work for, but the vast majority will find a graph paper sketch and a stack of Better Homes and Gardens was the design. It is like working for a first year Architecture student feeling their oats for the first time except in this case they write the check. This is why you have to be expert in order to quietly assert your authority over the design idea and execution, you need to logically and rational discount design move based on fact, because you can not win a battle of ideas with someone who is paying you.
LB_ It's good to know that some schools are making the effort to educate their students about the profession. I think too many schools are purposefully blind to issues regarding the profession in a larger sense (i.e. this isn't another rant about not learning CD's in school).
It's interesting to note that other professions have measures in place to somewhat regulate the amount of college graduates. Veterinarians have to apply to an association that regulates colleges that offer Vet programs in addition to the schools they are applying for and have to get accepted from both to move on with their studies. Although it does make the application process that much more of a hassle, there is a much stronger connection between academics and profession. It's easy to see how NCARB or the AIA could step up and fill this role...although I fear that they would use it as an opportunity to make money rather than provide any real service.
ok.. here's some stats:
year end 2008 to 2009 new applications for H1B visas, # and avg salary
SOM 183 $62,959
Gensler 48 $62,376
HOK 43 $57,264
RTKL 42 $51,405
KPF 34 $56,590
EDAW AECOM 25 $67,598
Vinoly 25 $46,118
Pelli Clarke Pelli 24 $43,069
Perkins & Will 24 $55,736
Perkins Eastman 17 $54,144
HOK 17 $63,424
These salaries seem low to me, which makes me suspect that these firms are trying to hire relatively junior people cheaply. Also, wasn't the a year when nobody was supposed to be hiring?
Im not familiar with H1 visas but I suspect there is no payroll tax? No Federal or State witholdings?
it's a competitive business now more than ever. if you want to sit behind a desk, do a little work, and collect a paycheck, you're probable going to have to move on to another field. most will probably say, "that's not me," but then, when i look at a thread like this, or from my own observations pre- and post-great recession, there were a hell of a lot of people that wanted to do just that. everyone that's left from management down to the lowest intern is going to have to prove why they belong through their intelligence, design-ability, risk-taking, or management skills. i don't see anything changing anytime soon, so be ready to get out there and work your ass off, or start looking for a different line of work.
wow - lots of threads of thought flowing on this thread.
with regards to foreign workers here: it just smells like really bad policy to start arbitrarily cutting off work visas. not only from the disruption it places on those people, but also from the standpoint that i just can't see that being something that will ultimately benefit the profession overall. i know, if you're unemployed right now, that it's really tempting to see this as a matter of someone else potentially 'taking' your job, but the health of our country depends on the flow of ideas that people who come here (legally) bring with them. most of the firms we think of as the most creative tend, i've noticed, tend to have a fairly diverse staff all the way around.
remember people: the banks are more responsible for this mess than anyone inside the profession itself.
I sat down and spoke with the President of a local arch and engineering firm in my area who was very obviously of foreign extraction (indian). His accent was very thick. He told me that he was recently made the president. The name of the firm is the last two names of two obviously very authenticaslly american surnames.
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/dirty-work--in-sourcing-american-jobs-with-h-2b-guestworkers-84431512.html
I would disagree the banks are more responsible. A handful of very high level connected "investment" banks with the help or many in DC our responsible. The average local commercial lending bank was not dealing with swap contracts, or at least did know they were feeding the beast from upstream. To say the healthy flow of ideas comes from diversity of staff via H1 visas is like saying staff without H1 visa holders are not capable of ideas. That is wrong.
If H1 visa holders are not paying FICA taxes than its an unfair advantage for the foreign worker over the local.
he.. Hellmuth Obata Kassebaum shows up four times.. must be different offices.
outed, I didn't say anything about cancelling valid visas... just looking into limiting new ones granted and not replacing those relinquished. The program was designed to alleviate actual shortages, not to facilitate low wage exploitation. If it's a loophole, then one can argue that loophole should be closed. The schools may not be willing to police the # of graduates, but one can argue that it is a Federal goverent responsibility to police their own programs. Those salaries make my suspect that the bulk
of those hires were recent grads.
Urbanist - would you share with us the source of the numbers you provide above, please.
Graduate MBA programs make no bones that they want a 60/40 mix US born to foreign born in their classes. At some schools its even higher.
also, one theory on the h1b visas...most of the firms on urbanist's list are large firms with projects overseas. one of the reasons why they are hiring so many foreign workers is to help staff overseas projects. our firm recently started acquiring work china, and we hired three chinese interns to help with language and cultural barriers in the design process. there is a reason why firms are hiring h1b staff, and it's not for a lack of american talent; it's simply that h1b workers have language skills that are highly in demand right now.
2Step -- H1 visa holders working in the US are subject to all of the same taxes as any other US worker.
blue
I pulled that up using the fedstats app (a government stats search engine application), but the source is USCIS, Dept of Homeland Security. I'm sure you can it off www.uscis.gov somewhere. I can't link stuff odd the app. All these stats are public record.
Actually Jaf, at a previous employer (one of the firms on that list), virtually all but one of the juniors on my team were Chinese and Indian nationals, and we were working exclusively on domestic projects... mostly upstate and in NJ.
From what Ive found H1 are required to pay FICA but F-1 are not however H1 holders from a country in which the US has a tax treaty on this topic can be exempt, be entitled to a refund upon leaving the country or be taxed at a rate which will be transferred to the program of their home country if they choose.
Globalism is my friend. My IQ is also the same as my shoe size.
Jafidler, interestingly, with that team, I actually tried to go out and get China work just because I wanted to give the people my bosses were hiring work to do they would find personally rewarding, in their own country, as opposed to the "sustainable" suburban subdivisions that are my own stock in trade.
Urbanist, wow that is a shocking statistic.
SOM 183 $62,959
Gensler 48 $62,376
HOK 43 $57,264
RTKL 42 $51,405
KPF 34 $56,590
EDAW AECOM 25 $67,598
Vinoly 25 $46,118
Pelli Clarke Pelli 24 $43,069
Perkins & Will 24 $55,736
Perkins Eastman 17 $54,144
HOK 17 $63,424
Urbanist, those were starting salaries for MArch grads? That's a hell of alot better than I thought they would be.
I don't think they're starting salaries.. just relatively junior. Unless they're really experienced people getting paid pathetically. It's hard to tell. Homeland Security doesn't disclose what those people were paid to do.. just the average salaries.
Most big firms start M.Arch grads at 45-55k I thought.
Urbanist, wow, some interesting stats, my first take on it was they were looking for seasoned people at fire sale prices.
According to NCARB there are around 97,000 architects in the US.
I read an article on the WSJ (AIA data) putting the layoffs at architecture firms at 40K last year.
So, unfortunately it's just math. And I think those stats do not capture part time folks, or people who have accepted salary cuts of like 20-30%.
I don't really know how to interpret those salaries. I was more interested in the number if hires. Anecdotally, I do know that one big firm on that list (not the one I was working for) was paying an experienced foreign national, GSD M.Arch with about 10yrs US experience and licensed in San Fran about 67k last year, but she wasn't a new hire. That seemed low to me.
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