As a recent grad cast into the mire that is the present economy, I have noticed the plethora of unpaid internships that have abounded since the current "troubles." While the AIA is very clear on its standpoint with regard to unpaid internship, their wording and stance seems much more aggressive towards those who would take an unpaid internship, than those who provide them. I read a recent, general, article about how, if you find yourself out work that you should try and continue to get experience anyway you can in order to not be left behind. The article went on to say that what happens in recessions is that those who find themselves unemployed, not gaining experience, largely get left behind once the veil lifts. What are those new to the profession supposed to do? It is for this reason that I have not joined AIA, I see no benefit, and don't believe they have my best interests. What bewilders me is that an association that is supposed to look out for the well being of those in the profession, completely disregards the source of this epidemic within the profession that I think rots it to the core and turns many from the profession. I only wish they were more aggressive and take action like pressure schools not to hire those who do it (no top school would dare do that, but I dare to dream), revoke their memberships, and bar them from AIA sponsored events and awards(I have heard they do this already, then explain this: http://aiauk.org/2008/11/keynote.html
From my viewpoint it is the biggest issue facing the profession. The profession would be better for it and I would join an association that would do that.
first, understand that the aia is only a professional organization - they have no legal standing in terms of enforcing paid or unpaid internships. yes, they have articulated a policy stance that has consequences (i might agree with you that it's more in theory than in action) for those who use unpaid labor.
that said, they have far less to do with our current state of affairs than goldman sachs or lehman brothers. the reality is we have far more labor supply right now than there is demand for our services. this is only going to be exacerbated this coming year as the recession lingers on, a wave of new grads hits the streets, and older architects hang on past the time when they would 'normally' have gone into retirement.
add to the top of all that, the few sectors where there is work (governmental work of all stripes) are seeing ever greater pressures to make their dollars go farther and have been steadily reducing fees on those few projects which exist. myself alone, i've responded to 3 library projects in the past month, all of which had a stated fee upfront and all of which were a full 2% of the construction value less than what we were getting a scant 18 months ago. that difference is the salary for one person for a year. in the private sector, it's even worse - most architects are being asked to give away services up front, to help developers, landlords, etc. just to help get the work, no matter how long a shot it is to actually move forward. and architects are falling over themselves to do it.
i'm not excusing anyone's actions but there's not a whole lot that is black and white in the profession right now. lots of people are struggling just to hold on to their firms and not fall into bankruptcy. it's an absolutely wretched time overall and it's going to have waves of repercussions for the next decade or longer.
you asked what you're supposed to do - the question is: what do you expect from all this? paying jobs simply are scarce. if the entire profession were to fully pay (meaning no cuts, no furloughs, etc.) everyone that could be paid within the current climate, we'd be closer to 50 % unemployment. think about that and then tell me what's supposed to happen...
I would agree with you, but I am sure that you will agree with me that unpaid labor in architecture is not just a result of current climate. The truth of the matter is that it is something that has occurred historically in the profession, in good times and bad. True, the AIA is just a professional organization, but it is that very inability to affect change that makes me question its role and use. I understand that firms are hurting, but when one firm provides a fee based upon certain percentage of free labor, it forces firms to use unpaid labor in order to compete, as well as possibly bankrupt the very firms that decide to take the moral high ground and not use unpaid intern, therefore leaving us only with firms that resort to such actions. By cutting fees through the use of unpaid interns, these firms set the earning potential of the profession back ten years by showing landlords and developers that they can get these services at this cost, therefore, when the economy lifts back up, they demand the same service for the same cost.
architecture isn't necessary
efficient product delivery is
knowing who's liable is
a return on investments is
building maintnance is
unless you're barnum enough to work it into the package
There is a fancy like interior design firm around here that works even with projects in Dubai, ( I bet they are not working for free), but they recruited several slabors to work for them full time for free after an interview and a test. WOW! Shoking.
The article went on to say that what happens in recessions is that those who find themselves unemployed, not gaining experience, largely get left behind once the veil lifts.
I honestly wouldn't worry about this. You are entry level. It doesn't matter if you start at entry level today or two years from now. What you can do to remain "valid" in the profession is self teach yourself programs like Revit. That's what employers will look for in an entry level position when they are ready to hire.
And yes, taking an unpaid internship does this profession no good. Fees are super tight and those that are working are working for peanuts. That said, you don't fix the problem by taking advantage of desperate people going after free labor.
Fundamentally, the AIA is neither an investigating nor a policing organization ... it is an organization of volunteer members who collectively decide what the AIA will, and will not, do.
Aside from existing policies (*) designed to prevent design awards, Fellowship, etc. from going to members who employ unpaid labor, the AIA has clear ethical standards with respect to the payment for labor, as follows:
Ethical Standard 5.1 Professional Environment: Members should provide their associates and employees with a suitable working environment, compensate them fairly, and facilitate their professional development.
The AIA has equally clear procedures for dealing with members who violate those ethical standards.
Rule 4.101 Members having substantial information which leads to a reasonable belief that another Member has committed a violation of this Code which raises a serious question as to that Member’s honesty, trustworthiness, or fitness as a Member, shall file a complaint with the National Ethics Council.
To the extent individual members are unwilling to file complaints in the face of ethical violations, then the parent organization can do little to address the problem about which you complain.
To refuse to join the AIA because you don't like what's happening in this area is - in my view - the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand. You complain bitterly about the AIA failing to protect "your" rights, but you don't want to engage in addressing the problem directly.
(*) Every AIA design award my firm has pursued required that we certify to the following: "I declare that I do not employ unpaid intern architects, including working students, and neither does any firm of which I am an owner or manager."
outed, i respect your opinions on this board and know that they are backed by experience, but i have not read a post with so many excuses in a long time. there is no excuse for this practice. period. the aia needs to take a harder stance on the issue and act, not simply state a position, to crack down on the practice.
i think we all understand that this is a very difficult time for the profession. there will be a lot of firms that fold and many people who leave the profession. those of us who are fortunate enough to survive need to do everything we can to make the changes necessary to come out of this stronger, as an individual, as an office, and as a profession. right now seems like the perfect time to reevaluate how we practice, and this issue isn't a bad place to start.
"the aia needs to take a harder stance on the issue and act, not simply state a position."
jafidler
: since you're so passionate about this question, why don't you tell us all what YOU are going to do personally to help the AIA deal with this problem. As both file and outed suggest above, there is no "they" in AIA ... only "we". What, pray tell, would that "harder stance" be and how are you going to help it come about?
I am sick to death of people coming on here to complain about the AIA, but never doing anything whatsoever besides complain.
unpaid internships? take it up with the US dept of labor, not the AIA. the fed has explicit rules as to what constitutes a legal unpaid internship - i.e. you cannot do work on real projects for paying clients or competitions (anything speculative where there is potential to make money - or for marketing purposes), do tasks that an administrator would do (like fetching coffee, answering phones, filing, or making copies), and it cannot last more than 3 months.
unpaid interns are not employees - they should be treated as students/trainees who are simply getting training and exposure to what happens in a real office. the moment you have them do something that you'd normally pay someone else to do, you're doing something highly illegal.
even if things are tough right now - it's black and white in terms of what is legal and and what isn't.
babs, look, i am not the aia, i am not an aia member, and to be honest, i have no interest in joining the aia, precisely because they have only given the impression of being utterly inefficient and ineffectual. show me that the aia has the strength or interest to effect change that i find meaningful, and i will gladly join.
would i join the nra because i wanted to change the organization? of course not. i would join because i felt sympathetic with their views. at this point, i, like many within my generation of architects, do not feel sympathetic towards what the aia is offering, and that is very unfortunate.
File - Maybe your right, maybe I should join the AIA and try and change it from the inside rather than ranting from the inside. But I have a heard time respecting an organization that has a set code of conduct and ethical practices that specifically prohibit the practice yet lavish praise and distinction (FAIA and National Design Awards, Eisenman and Holl just to name two) upon people who violate these rules. What this says to me is that the association's words are hollow, and I think that an organization that is "the voice of the architecture profession" should show more outrage and less complacency. They can do a lot of things, to say otherwise is bs. They can do all the things that I mentioned above in my first post.
Babs- Archinect is an open discussion forum and a sounding board from the profession. I simply wanted to get other people's opinion on the subject. With regard to never "doing anything about it," I don't want to be part of an organization that I don't believe has the profession's best interests at hand. I am a young designer, newly out of school, but I know that a large portion of my fellow peers feel that AIA concentrates mainly on those who own or run a firm. A group that has declining new membership should look at some of these issues if they hope to attract us.
the AIA states "EMPLOY unpaid interns" - if eisenman and holl are conducting legal unpaid internships, then they are within the AIA's ethical rules.
IMO - there are two issues - firms exploiting recent grads because they are ignoring the law, and access to LEGAL unpaid internships by those who are economically disadvantaged. The AIA seems to have only taken a stance on the aspect that is actually illegal, but not where it's an issue of social justice.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried.'
- Winston Churchill
Everybody wants to turn their back on AIA because it's not perfect and because it doesn't satisfy their own particular personal need. However, if you really stop to think about it, it's the only game in town ... either we fix the problems with AIA or we go totally unrepresented.
It's your choice.
At some level, I'm with babs on this one -- so many people here bitch and moan about AIA but aren't willing to roll up their sleeves and try to change the organization to better fit their ideal of what that professional organization ought to do.
The NRA analogy is not relevant (IMHO) to this discussion because the NRA is fundamentally a political organization aimed at protecting a very narrow set of rights. The AIA, on the other hand, is the only organization available to represent a broad ranges of interests for architects -- while it does have a political arm, it's main thrust is to develop tools and programs aimed at helping architects practice more successfully.
You may not think AIA to be an effective organization, but perhaps you ought to take a moment to consider what our profession might look like if AIA had never existed.
ja - no offense taken by me. and i think we both agree on what the aia should do (in terms of what they can do, which would be to publicly revoke the membership status of people found guilty of violating their ethical code). the pragmatist in me thinks that an organization such as theirs, which is already getting beaten around the head financially is not going to risk losing even more members by tossing high profile firms. i personally think that makes them worse than chickensh**s', but...
all that said, yes, it would be best if the aia backed up it's own code of conduct with some real teeth. however, they're not the root cause for why firms are taking on people without pay, whether legal or not (and nevermind the ethical implications). fixing the root cause isn't going to happen quickly. at all.
ultimately, it's up to those of us who have the responsibility for a firm to each make the 'right' choice in those situations, whether or not the aia is looking over their shoulders or not.
Can we name some names in this forum? Which firms are the worst offenders? We've heard of illegal interns at Steven Holl and Peter Eisenman. Can anyone verify this? Can we produce a list here of companies that are violating labor laws? Lets put it out there in the open and lets be specific?
Peter was my professor and he told us "They are not working for free, I'm teaching them and they will get a job anywhere they want".
You can sit here and argue that he is violating labor laws from our perspective but he's been doing it for past 30 years and we all know it...so don't you think somebody would have done something about it? I bet he had a really good argument/attorney that proved it otherwise.
Most people rarely, if ever, turn employers in for labor violations and infractions of labor laws.
I'm not sure if you have actually attempted to do so but you'll find that the labor department is pretty ignorant and detached to the general public in a lot of states.
There's also the whole shtick that you should be "grateful for the opportunities" you get.
Anytime anyone ever uses the term grateful when it comes to employment is obviously not using a logical rhetoric.
Gratefulness doesn't exist is modern non-primitive economies. Even in the modern world should be working and should have access to work. One must work-- therefore, one cannot be grateful for what is expected.
AIA/unpaid internships
As a recent grad cast into the mire that is the present economy, I have noticed the plethora of unpaid internships that have abounded since the current "troubles." While the AIA is very clear on its standpoint with regard to unpaid internship, their wording and stance seems much more aggressive towards those who would take an unpaid internship, than those who provide them. I read a recent, general, article about how, if you find yourself out work that you should try and continue to get experience anyway you can in order to not be left behind. The article went on to say that what happens in recessions is that those who find themselves unemployed, not gaining experience, largely get left behind once the veil lifts. What are those new to the profession supposed to do? It is for this reason that I have not joined AIA, I see no benefit, and don't believe they have my best interests. What bewilders me is that an association that is supposed to look out for the well being of those in the profession, completely disregards the source of this epidemic within the profession that I think rots it to the core and turns many from the profession. I only wish they were more aggressive and take action like pressure schools not to hire those who do it (no top school would dare do that, but I dare to dream), revoke their memberships, and bar them from AIA sponsored events and awards(I have heard they do this already, then explain this:
http://aiauk.org/2008/11/keynote.html
From my viewpoint it is the biggest issue facing the profession. The profession would be better for it and I would join an association that would do that.
deacon,
first, understand that the aia is only a professional organization - they have no legal standing in terms of enforcing paid or unpaid internships. yes, they have articulated a policy stance that has consequences (i might agree with you that it's more in theory than in action) for those who use unpaid labor.
that said, they have far less to do with our current state of affairs than goldman sachs or lehman brothers. the reality is we have far more labor supply right now than there is demand for our services. this is only going to be exacerbated this coming year as the recession lingers on, a wave of new grads hits the streets, and older architects hang on past the time when they would 'normally' have gone into retirement.
add to the top of all that, the few sectors where there is work (governmental work of all stripes) are seeing ever greater pressures to make their dollars go farther and have been steadily reducing fees on those few projects which exist. myself alone, i've responded to 3 library projects in the past month, all of which had a stated fee upfront and all of which were a full 2% of the construction value less than what we were getting a scant 18 months ago. that difference is the salary for one person for a year. in the private sector, it's even worse - most architects are being asked to give away services up front, to help developers, landlords, etc. just to help get the work, no matter how long a shot it is to actually move forward. and architects are falling over themselves to do it.
i'm not excusing anyone's actions but there's not a whole lot that is black and white in the profession right now. lots of people are struggling just to hold on to their firms and not fall into bankruptcy. it's an absolutely wretched time overall and it's going to have waves of repercussions for the next decade or longer.
you asked what you're supposed to do - the question is: what do you expect from all this? paying jobs simply are scarce. if the entire profession were to fully pay (meaning no cuts, no furloughs, etc.) everyone that could be paid within the current climate, we'd be closer to 50 % unemployment. think about that and then tell me what's supposed to happen...
I would agree with you, but I am sure that you will agree with me that unpaid labor in architecture is not just a result of current climate. The truth of the matter is that it is something that has occurred historically in the profession, in good times and bad. True, the AIA is just a professional organization, but it is that very inability to affect change that makes me question its role and use. I understand that firms are hurting, but when one firm provides a fee based upon certain percentage of free labor, it forces firms to use unpaid labor in order to compete, as well as possibly bankrupt the very firms that decide to take the moral high ground and not use unpaid intern, therefore leaving us only with firms that resort to such actions. By cutting fees through the use of unpaid interns, these firms set the earning potential of the profession back ten years by showing landlords and developers that they can get these services at this cost, therefore, when the economy lifts back up, they demand the same service for the same cost.
architecture isn't necessary
efficient product delivery is
knowing who's liable is
a return on investments is
building maintnance is
unless you're barnum enough to work it into the package
Unpaid internships are illegal.
Anyone who is advocating for them is guilty of conspiracy, tax evasion and fraud.
There is a fancy like interior design firm around here that works even with projects in Dubai, ( I bet they are not working for free), but they recruited several slabors to work for them full time for free after an interview and a test. WOW! Shoking.
I honestly wouldn't worry about this. You are entry level. It doesn't matter if you start at entry level today or two years from now. What you can do to remain "valid" in the profession is self teach yourself programs like Revit. That's what employers will look for in an entry level position when they are ready to hire.
And yes, taking an unpaid internship does this profession no good. Fees are super tight and those that are working are working for peanuts. That said, you don't fix the problem by taking advantage of desperate people going after free labor.
Fundamentally, the AIA is neither an investigating nor a policing organization ... it is an organization of volunteer members who collectively decide what the AIA will, and will not, do.
Aside from existing policies (*) designed to prevent design awards, Fellowship, etc. from going to members who employ unpaid labor, the AIA has clear ethical standards with respect to the payment for labor, as follows:
Ethical Standard 5.1 Professional Environment: Members should provide their associates and employees with a suitable working environment, compensate them fairly, and facilitate their professional development.
The AIA has equally clear procedures for dealing with members who violate those ethical standards.
Rule 4.101 Members having substantial information which leads to a reasonable belief that another Member has committed a violation of this Code which raises a serious question as to that Member’s honesty, trustworthiness, or fitness as a Member, shall file a complaint with the National Ethics Council.
To the extent individual members are unwilling to file complaints in the face of ethical violations, then the parent organization can do little to address the problem about which you complain.
To refuse to join the AIA because you don't like what's happening in this area is - in my view - the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand. You complain bitterly about the AIA failing to protect "your" rights, but you don't want to engage in addressing the problem directly.
(*) Every AIA design award my firm has pursued required that we certify to the following: "I declare that I do not employ unpaid intern architects, including working students, and neither does any firm of which I am an owner or manager."
outed, i respect your opinions on this board and know that they are backed by experience, but i have not read a post with so many excuses in a long time. there is no excuse for this practice. period. the aia needs to take a harder stance on the issue and act, not simply state a position, to crack down on the practice.
i think we all understand that this is a very difficult time for the profession. there will be a lot of firms that fold and many people who leave the profession. those of us who are fortunate enough to survive need to do everything we can to make the changes necessary to come out of this stronger, as an individual, as an office, and as a profession. right now seems like the perfect time to reevaluate how we practice, and this issue isn't a bad place to start.
jafidler
: since you're so passionate about this question, why don't you tell us all what YOU are going to do personally to help the AIA deal with this problem. As both file and outed suggest above, there is no "they" in AIA ... only "we". What, pray tell, would that "harder stance" be and how are you going to help it come about?
I am sick to death of people coming on here to complain about the AIA, but never doing anything whatsoever besides complain.
unpaid internships? take it up with the US dept of labor, not the AIA. the fed has explicit rules as to what constitutes a legal unpaid internship - i.e. you cannot do work on real projects for paying clients or competitions (anything speculative where there is potential to make money - or for marketing purposes), do tasks that an administrator would do (like fetching coffee, answering phones, filing, or making copies), and it cannot last more than 3 months.
unpaid interns are not employees - they should be treated as students/trainees who are simply getting training and exposure to what happens in a real office. the moment you have them do something that you'd normally pay someone else to do, you're doing something highly illegal.
even if things are tough right now - it's black and white in terms of what is legal and and what isn't.
babs, look, i am not the aia, i am not an aia member, and to be honest, i have no interest in joining the aia, precisely because they have only given the impression of being utterly inefficient and ineffectual. show me that the aia has the strength or interest to effect change that i find meaningful, and i will gladly join.
would i join the nra because i wanted to change the organization? of course not. i would join because i felt sympathetic with their views. at this point, i, like many within my generation of architects, do not feel sympathetic towards what the aia is offering, and that is very unfortunate.
File - Maybe your right, maybe I should join the AIA and try and change it from the inside rather than ranting from the inside. But I have a heard time respecting an organization that has a set code of conduct and ethical practices that specifically prohibit the practice yet lavish praise and distinction (FAIA and National Design Awards, Eisenman and Holl just to name two) upon people who violate these rules. What this says to me is that the association's words are hollow, and I think that an organization that is "the voice of the architecture profession" should show more outrage and less complacency. They can do a lot of things, to say otherwise is bs. They can do all the things that I mentioned above in my first post.
Babs- Archinect is an open discussion forum and a sounding board from the profession. I simply wanted to get other people's opinion on the subject. With regard to never "doing anything about it," I don't want to be part of an organization that I don't believe has the profession's best interests at hand. I am a young designer, newly out of school, but I know that a large portion of my fellow peers feel that AIA concentrates mainly on those who own or run a firm. A group that has declining new membership should look at some of these issues if they hope to attract us.
the AIA states "EMPLOY unpaid interns" - if eisenman and holl are conducting legal unpaid internships, then they are within the AIA's ethical rules.
IMO - there are two issues - firms exploiting recent grads because they are ignoring the law, and access to LEGAL unpaid internships by those who are economically disadvantaged. The AIA seems to have only taken a stance on the aspect that is actually illegal, but not where it's an issue of social justice.
- Winston Churchill
Everybody wants to turn their back on AIA because it's not perfect and because it doesn't satisfy their own particular personal need. However, if you really stop to think about it, it's the only game in town ... either we fix the problems with AIA or we go totally unrepresented.
It's your choice.
At some level, I'm with babs on this one -- so many people here bitch and moan about AIA but aren't willing to roll up their sleeves and try to change the organization to better fit their ideal of what that professional organization ought to do.
The NRA analogy is not relevant (IMHO) to this discussion because the NRA is fundamentally a political organization aimed at protecting a very narrow set of rights. The AIA, on the other hand, is the only organization available to represent a broad ranges of interests for architects -- while it does have a political arm, it's main thrust is to develop tools and programs aimed at helping architects practice more successfully.
You may not think AIA to be an effective organization, but perhaps you ought to take a moment to consider what our profession might look like if AIA had never existed.
ja - no offense taken by me. and i think we both agree on what the aia should do (in terms of what they can do, which would be to publicly revoke the membership status of people found guilty of violating their ethical code). the pragmatist in me thinks that an organization such as theirs, which is already getting beaten around the head financially is not going to risk losing even more members by tossing high profile firms. i personally think that makes them worse than chickensh**s', but...
all that said, yes, it would be best if the aia backed up it's own code of conduct with some real teeth. however, they're not the root cause for why firms are taking on people without pay, whether legal or not (and nevermind the ethical implications). fixing the root cause isn't going to happen quickly. at all.
ultimately, it's up to those of us who have the responsibility for a firm to each make the 'right' choice in those situations, whether or not the aia is looking over their shoulders or not.
Can we name some names in this forum? Which firms are the worst offenders? We've heard of illegal interns at Steven Holl and Peter Eisenman. Can anyone verify this? Can we produce a list here of companies that are violating labor laws? Lets put it out there in the open and lets be specific?
Peter was my professor and he told us "They are not working for free, I'm teaching them and they will get a job anywhere they want".
You can sit here and argue that he is violating labor laws from our perspective but he's been doing it for past 30 years and we all know it...so don't you think somebody would have done something about it? I bet he had a really good argument/attorney that proved it otherwise.
Most people rarely, if ever, turn employers in for labor violations and infractions of labor laws.
I'm not sure if you have actually attempted to do so but you'll find that the labor department is pretty ignorant and detached to the general public in a lot of states.
There's also the whole shtick that you should be "grateful for the opportunities" you get.
Anytime anyone ever uses the term grateful when it comes to employment is obviously not using a logical rhetoric.
Gratefulness doesn't exist is modern non-primitive economies. Even in the modern world should be working and should have access to work. One must work-- therefore, one cannot be grateful for what is expected.
Especially in our industry oorchi! We don't want to burn bridges. I'm sick and tired of hearing that shit!
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