I've worked on a number of BAA projects, and let me tell you they're a joke. Amazingly, "buy american" really means buy products from America OR economically disadvantaged countries, countries that we have free trade agreements with, etc...

See discussion on 4specs boards

I should clarify... the projects weren't a joke... the BAA requirements are.

Unfortunately I guess that Switzerland doesn't qualify as economically disadvantaged! Thanks for the link, it will at least give me somewhere to start

no... but it is a WTO organization country... From those boards:

I make NO claims to the accuracy or completeness of this list, but it comes from one of the documents Chris mentioned above (dated somewhere in 2007 I believe):

(1) A World Trade Organization Government Procurement Agreement country:

Aruba, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea (Republic of), Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Singapore, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, or United Kingdom

(2) Free Trade Agreement country:

Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Morocco, Nicaragua, or Singapore

(3) A least developed country:

Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, East Timor, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Vanuatu, Yemen, or Zambia

(4) A Caribbean Basin country:

Antigua and Barbuda, Aruba, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, British Virgin Islands, Costa Rica, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Grenada, Guyana, Haiti, Jamaica, Montserrat, Netherlands Antilles, St.Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, or Trinidad and Tobago.

On top of that... your contracting office can exclude items that aren't available here (there should be a list from the contracting officer of excluded items somewhere), and if there's a signifcant price difference you can abandon it entirely (10% I think?)... you should def check the language of the act itself... there's more loopholes then requirements. I'm pretty sure there was a link on the 4specs boards.

RealLife, do you know if

Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR) clause 52.225-11 Buy American Act--Construction Materials under Trade Agreements'

and 52.225-12 "Notice of Buy American Act Requirement-- Construction Materials under Trade Agreements"

still apply under the ARRA? is there still an exemption for World Trade Organization Government Procurement Agreement countries?

Does anyone else know of any possible American Manufacturers of Cement Board Cladding?

as good as swiss pearl? doesn't exist

but i think hardi panel and sil-leed are u.s. mfr'd

rococco... no clue about ARRA implications on BAA regulations. The projects I worked on were before ARRA, and I haven't touched the stuff with a ten foot pole since.

Swiss Pearl?! You have a pretty forward thinking client for your average school district. Seriously though, if the client thinks that a heavy gauge metal panel will get dented what do they think would happen to a cement board? Those things don't dent...they just crack and break. When I was doing K-12 work I saw many schools where kids literally took aluminum baseball bats to walls. One place they quickly learned how easy it was to damage EIFS...thus I was called to design an alternative. So, your Swiss Pearl panels will look good at turnover but I give it a few short months before some enterprising kid learns a good whack can crack that material too. Put the panels up high and leave full wythe masonry anywhere that can take abuse.

The durablility has been a concern but we let the school district take a panel and abuse it as they saw fit. It graffiti was easily cleaned and it handled the knife test... now I'm not sure about a metal bat, but then again the only place it is accessible is at the front entry

Man, it just really irks how it just gets harder and harder to be able to design a school that doesn't do second duty as a bunker or prison, I mean seriously...

Well here's an idea for an alternative...

What about a Lightweight Concrete panel that is stained/acid etched and then polished.... is that even possible? what would the life span be?

not all new schools look like bunkers...ap møller

puddles here's the key phrase in your video: "Without typical budget constraints"

Hardie is making a push into the panel market - one of the few large displays at last spring's AIA show. Not sure the finish will pass your client's test, but would be worth checking out.

Hardie

hardie's too thin, color options are kinda bleh.

imo it's not worth the price.

I disagree. Spent 4+ years doing K-12 schools and almost all of the addition/renovations we did to 1950-60's era built schools looked far more like prisions or bunkers than the new school buildings out there. Even the older 1930's age schools, although charming in many ways, were masonry bunkers compared to what is out there today.

Guess what I was trying to say about the Swiss Pearl is that you should try to push harder on the metal panels. If the only place where it could be damaged is a main entrance where vandalism will likely be minimized there really shouldn't be an issue.

I should clarify, the 50-60's schools looked like bunkers prior to renovations.

Aqua, I was also mainly just grumping about the extreme conservative nature of the school boards here (probably everywhere), it just takes a lot of work to get anything done that is not just a brick shoebox... but then again that's why we are here, to change things.

speaking to the question of US manufacturers - your only option at this point, I believe, is HardiePanel (there was another one... blanking on it... started with a C... but I think they went out of business?) I researched this extensively about 8 months ago. Here's the bottom line :

HardiePanel has HORRIBLE color choices AND let me tell you, their technical staff is atrocious compared to the know-how you'll get from the European companies (very few details on hand; the details they do have are sketchy at best and lack vital information), AND if you're planning to use the material in any way other than the method they recommend (face-screwed straight to blocking), not only will they not warantee it, but they won't even understand what you're talking about. So forget trying to work with the experts to develop any kind of unique detail. (Also, the fry reglet products they recommend as trim look like butt.)

If you cut the panels at all, remember that you'll need to paint the edges afterwords (they need to be sealed). You may want to site-paint them anyhow, because again their shop-painted color options are horrible. This adds expense.

HOWEVER : when we were looking at them, they were phenomenally cheaper than using Eternit (which we picked over Swiss Pearl), even allowing for the site-painting issue. The thickness was comparable(about 5/16") so I'm not sure what holz is referring to.

To be honest, I don't give a damn about the buy american act stuff, but I will say that saving a huge chunk of money on the facade is going to allow you to put lots more money into the inside of the building where the students will actually get to benefit from it. I agree that the swiss stuff is awesome and sexy and that hardie panel, right now, is kind of a joke in comparison -- but honestly if you're on a tight budget (as schools usually are) I would find it kind of irresponsible to put so much into the facade panels when you could pinch a little there and not really compromise the durability.

Of course, if you get the hardie samples and they don't hold up to the district's durability tests, then that's a different story. Just some things to think about.

OH and btw, if this school is in the northwest, you could use Hardie's new line of "artisan" panels -- these are designed more for rainscreen use and looked to me to be a step up from the regular panel. I couldn't use them for my project (they can only be used in Oregon, Washington, and a couple other states I think) though so didn't get to research them.

this thread is a good example of why archinect rocks.

manta, they may have been same thickness, but the projects i've worked on or seen that used hardi panel warped more than swiss pearl (at least here in the NW) - and didn't hold up as well to abuse.

if you think school buildings have to be fairly sturdy, you should look at city parks projects. vandal resistant takes on a whole new meaning.

manta, I think the "C" company you were trying to think of was Cembonit. The warping that Holz mentioned is why we honestly aren't even considering Hardiboard/panel. In Arkansas we have some crazy humidity in the summer and any saw cuts on Hardiboard warp and just look terrible.

We also looked at Sil-Leed from Cement Board Fabricators, but as my boss so kindly pointed out, little boys with pocket knives (in this case, himself) can carve things like "I hate my Teacher" into it willynilly and theres not much we can do about it but replace said panel... But...

Yesterday I spoke to a local concrete sub, and we are looking into essentially polishing and acid-staining some precast concrete panels and just using those. So I thought I would submit the idea to you guys and see if anyone can poke some holes in it.

I also thought about doing it as a tilt up application, but need the finish on both finish faces of a 3hr fire wall... I guess it could be two thin pours that are tilted together back to back... that may be another option.

We were hoping to have an adjacent porch soffit be the same material as the wall... but I am not sure we can get away with hanging precast there.

Anyway to the point does anyone have any experience with using stained concrete on an exterior wall, UV is definitely a concern of mine.

Thanks for everyone's comments so far! As always, it's been great to have a community like this to turn to.

have you looked into the process (fotobeton) at TU eberswalde by h&dem?



pdf - fotobeton (auf deutsch)

i think they were able to keep costs lower by doing the same image over and over - but the process seemed really interesting...

not sure about the buy american thing but as far as panels you could look at:
superpanel
fibre-c
fundermax

jealous - thanks for the links, I had not heard of those companies, at first glance I don't think I will be able to use them for ARRA projects but they could definitely be a possibility for other projects.

holz - I am actually pitching to use these guys on another project in the office right now Intaglio Composites

although i like your example images a lot better than the ones in their gallery

rococco -- yes, cembonit was it! I remember their logo.

holz -- I had no idea about the warping -- that's really interesting. At the time I researched it (earlier this year) there was only one project I could go see in my town, and it was less than 1 year installed. So I never really got any good info on long-term stability / maintenance. I will file that away for future ref.

rococco -- the concrete idea sounds like a much better option, honestly. I really, really wish that we could get some decent fiber cement panel manufacturers set up in the states... if for nothing other than avoiding customs delays etc.

there's also that japanese company trying to get into the market... nichiha? something like that? I ruled them out pretty quickly because of lack of info, but it might be worth checking for future ref.

oh I can't wait to go see that damn H&deM building in person some day. I get the feeling that the images just don't truly convey the awesomeness of the material use. Just like every singe zumthor project...