My partner and I took on a 'commission' last March to design a house. An oceanfront house, 5000+ SF in a high end market. We are straight out of school and unlicensed, we found this guy on Craigslist. He offered us 8$ an hour. We hired a lawyer, started a business, drew up a contract bent sharply in our favor and began.
Owner's position was that he wanted to hire some young architects who were going to give him something fun and creative, which turned out to mean slides instead of staircases, murphy beds, and an operable oceanside wall (which client generously hand drew details for...) After working with client for several months we provided a bill for our time, we had provided site surveying, measuring existing conditions, contextual research, built model of existing building, several client meetings, eight iterations of schematic designs and a rendering of one of the most realistic solutions. For this we had charged nearly 800$, about 100 hours of work.
Client responds that we are charging too much, and that if we continue on this path when we "aren't even to first base" that he should have gone with a rubber stamp architect (which he had tried twice before). Keep in mind that the property is appraised at $2.6 million.
As much as I would love to complete this project and get through all of the kinks and have our first built work out there for our 800$ fee, I can't do it. It is delay, delay, delay. I feel contempt for the owner for taking advantage of our services and feel unethical if I were to give him what he wants. At the same time I need closure, I sit down to work and there is always my conscious reminding me of a commitment that I made that is disintegrating and I have always upheld my end of the deal in past business.
1) not exactly sure what your scope of services is, but $8/hr is embarrassingly low. even for SD work, he would be paying tens of thousands of dollars.
2) the client is building a multi-million dollar mansion and is bitching about a few hundred bucks? something doesn't sound legit.
3) you need to clarify what exactly he wants (a set of CDs?, SD set to take to another architect?, etc.)
- My partner and I both work full time in the Architecture industry, the business is a part time (extra cirricular job)
- Not independently wealthy
- Client claims to offer payment in 'reputation' as 'word travels fast' in this area where the house is located. This has some truth to it, the area is rapidly redeveloping and most of the houses are devoid of any architectural life at all. A good looking house could draw a lot of attention.
how is a contract paying you $8/hr '... bent sharply in (your) favor'?
if you're not lying, you cannot work for several months before sending the first invoice. did you get a retainer? did the client pay for the site survey? who hires a fake architect to design their oceanfront $2.6 million property and then pays them in 'reputation'?
dude, your 'reputation' will be 'willing to work for almost nothing'. this 'client' sounds like an absolute douche to work for. he's getting thousands of dollars worth of effort for pocket change; and complaining about it, too.
how much do you value your time and skills?
i'm not trying to be mean, but i've been through this and it's not worth it.
I'm with sectionalhealing and FRaC. This person sounds like an idiot who you should steer far away from. Someone who can afford a multi million dollar house should not be looking for people on Craigslist (unless it's for what randomized suggested). The fact that he couldn't talk to his friends to get a recommendation for an architect tells me he doesn't have many friends, and that he doesn't take construction, let alone architecture, seriously.
I mean for chrissake. My partner and I get paid in "reputation" because our clients all move in the same circles and recommend us highly - AND they pay us upwards of $100 per hour, because they value our expertise.
The fact that he's already burned through two architects should warn you.
Since you say you hired a lawyer to start up the business, call that lawyer back and ask for a letter saying that you are canceling out of the contract due to non-payment, end of story. Then run away. As fast as you can.
to add to lb's advice i would also suggest suing the guy in small claims court.
if you have '... provided site surveying, measuring existing conditions, contextual research, built model of existing building, several client meetings, eight iterations of schematic designs and a rendering of one of the most realistic solutions.' then it should be a slam dunk to get your $800.
EIGHT DOLLARS AN HOUR?! Are you kidding me? Do you realize you have to pay self-employment taxes to the tune of nearly 40% on those wages? Wow. I charge around $70 an hour for out-of-office design work, depending on client, and have never once had a problem getting paid.
Honestly, I would go after him in small claims court (you don't need a lawyer in small claims court, and the second you contact a lawyer you will be out your $800 anyway). You should know now, however, that you will never see this money (or you will have to go to more trouble than $800 is worth to see this money). This client knew what architectural services go for and intentionally sought out a rube on craigslist to take advantage of. I am very sorry for you that you are learning this lesson the hard way but trust me, this man never, ever, ever intended on paying you for all your effort. If he did, he would have gone to a reputable firm instead of using craigslist to search -- intentionally! -- for *students*, who as you might guess, obviously wouldn't know anything about the business. The fact that he is a real estate lawyer -- and therefore presumably knowledgeable about the construction and real estate industries -- is even more damning.
Do yourself a favor and never, ever undercut your services -- especially so extraordinarily deeply. You get what you sell yourself for (in this case, nothing). Again, this is a very good lesson to learn although I wish deeply that you had come on here earlier so we could have helped you learn this before you put so much effort into the work. I'm very sorry.
This is so fucked up I can't even express it. Even a shit drafting job pays minimum $15/hour, and you don't have to pay self-employment taxes. What on earth possessed you to think your hard-won education and talent was worth LESS THAN A BARISTA MAKES is beyond me. Please never make this mistake again.
- The contract is 'bent sharply in our favor' not because of our compensation, but as to our liability after the project is built which is zero.
Am I incorrect in assuming that in the future, as I am looking for future work that is legitimate and not in this area (we are planning to move far away in the near future) that it would be beneficial to have a large expansive house project built, client and contractor references, etc? Let's imagine that the client is great and loves every idea that rushes out of our pens and builds it and loves it, and our later clients see it and love it and hire us for a commission, are we then idiots for doing what amounts to extensive spec work?
There is a culture of performing design work for free that I am not happy about, but I am sure that I am not the only naive designer who has gone through this process.
Thanks for helping to clear my conscious anyways, I will soon go about ending our contract and moving on to greener pastures.
Am I incorrect in assuming that in the future, as I am looking for future work that is legitimate and not in this area (we are planning to move far away in the near future) that it would be beneficial to have a large expansive house project built, client and contractor references, etc
This is absolutely correct, but you need to focus on that word "legitimate". You have to pick your clients just like they pick you, and as you get more experience you'll be better at sensing who is going to make a good client and who is not going to be worth the pain.
Clients are inseparable from their projects; they leave their mark not only on you, your finances, your emotional well-being, but on the design and construction execution as well. Therefore, the "large expansive built house project" you thought you were going to have with this client was never a possibility from day one. It's not that you shouldn't seek out those opportunities -- of course you should -- it's just that those opportunities come from particular types of clients, and this guy isn't that type of client. Therefore you have to evaluate not just the "project" opportunity, but the client as well, when you are considering this kind of thing in the future. We're trying to help point out the red flags you missed this time around, so that next time, you'll have a better shot of evaluating your opportunities.
Also, following up on what liberty bell writes, clients tend to recommend other clients that have similar traits as themselves. This is not always the case, but more often than not, a referral from a tough client tends to end up as another tough client. And, don't think that you "happy client" is not sharing the fact that you were so cheap - making it very hard to all of a sudden charge their friends fair market rates.
And keep in mind the following:
The client will probably say he came up with all the ideas, and you just drew them up.
The client is probably a jerk with everyone, and you will be "tainted" by his jerkiness. His "friends" will probably avoid you just because they don't really like him.
In my early just out of school days I did a residential project for a state supreme court justice. He screwed me on the fee, would not pay and laughed that he had a whole staff of lawyers to make my life awful if I tried to get my money. I never got a referral out of it, and everyone who knew him thought he was a jerk. The only way it helped my career was as a giant life lesson in picking clients, avoiding bad clients getting retainers up front, etc. By the way, a year later he was brought up on charges of having his assistants and law clerks buy him controlled drugs under various names with bogus prescriptions and was thrown off the supreme court.
Sometimes, I question our, as in the architecture community, sense of value in relationship to our skills, time, resourcefulness, and knowledge. I know this has been said in numerous threads before, but we tend to let clients devalue our services for some apparent reason.
ovalle, the answer to your question is this: that WE don't see the value in what we do, so in some screwed way, by charging some ricockulous fee, we are essentially agreeing with the client; that any monkey can do our job.
value your education, value your skills, and value your profession. then and only then will clients value you.
Why are we so quick to blame the client....two kids just out of college, unlicensed, untested, INEXPERIENCED...Perhaps what the designers presented was crap? Perhaps what they dreamed up was not feasible....just saying..
I was thinking this over today and I question whether it is ultimately even possible to remove oneself from liability in the event of harm coming to the public from one's design. Anyone know anything about that? If you sign a contract with the owner saying "I am not liable and I'm not carrying insurance", and then one day some improperly fastened piece of incorrectly detailed flashing falls off the edge of the the roof and hits some poor person on the sidewalk, aren't you still liable regardless of what you signed with the client?
Well in terms of suing someone, someone hit by a piece of building is going to go after the owner, who is going to go after either the contractor or the architect. If the contractor is a corporate entity that has disbanded after doing one job - as is surprisingly common - then there might not be anyone to sue. but in my state, where being a licensed professional means you are personally liable for your design, even if I've disbanded my corporation a lawsuit can come after me as a person.
In which case, I think a contract saying I have no liability for construction flaws - not design flaws - is protection enough. But I'm not really sure.
I love this one...Schools make one big mistake and that is they let students graduate who think they can jump over skyscrapers. I can only image the design presented and well wonder how buildable it could be. Lots of nice curves and slides do not constitute a building design. Oh I guess that is why you tell the client he needs a structural engineer, and well the plumbing contractor can figure out how to plumb the place and the mechanical contractor he can figure out how to heat and cool the place...and well someone can fix the roof leaks cause...well....Mr. Wright he designed them into all of his buildings. If you had been successful with your design the guy would have been happy and given you a bottle of wine with a check for a $1,000.00. I think you failed your client. So go try again, and well from personal experience, your working for peanuts!
In which case, I think a contract saying I have no liability for construction flaws - not design flaws - is protection enough. But I'm not really sure.
Exactly what I was wondering though -- can you ever, through contractual agreement with the client, protect yourself from liability due to DESIGN flaws? I don't think you can. Especially since, if the public is harmed -- well, you didn't sign anything with the public, did you?
Manta- you can come close. You can have a very strict indemnity clause in your contract basically stating that you have NO liability on the project. So, if a flashing detail does not work, the owner has given up the right to sue you.
Also, every contract should have a very strict Site Safety clause that states clearly that the GC is responsible for site safety. While your contract with the owner cannot bind the GC to anything, you can "warrant" that the Owner's contract with the GC will stipulate certain things making clear that they are 100% responsible for site safety.
BUT, if Gross Negligence is proven, then your indemnifications/limits of liability don't typically apply to my knowledge.
Poisoned minds? Your contract must not have been clear if the client was expecting CD level drawings in 80 hours for $800...You have shown your lack of experience and professionalism here. It was YOUR duty to make sure there were no misunderstandings of this magnitude. I side on the client on this one....Most clients are nuts....this does not make you any less responsible.
I'm not an attorney, but based on years of experience dealing with professional liability insurance representatives and attorneys representing both owners and design professionals, I will give my two cents on the "can you eliminate your liability" question.
Anyone can write anything they want in a contract and, at least some of the time, get another party to agree to it. However, valid enforceable contracts have to meet a slightly higher test than just "he signed it!" The answer to this question varies from state to state, but probably not significantly. In short, it is very close to impossible, if not completely impossible, to totally eliminate your liability for design work that you perform. You often read discussions on this forum and others about "limitation of liability clauses" in contracts. In most jurisdictions, limitation of liability is perfectly legal...but is has to be reasonable. In other words, most courts will look to a limitation of liability clause and see if the limitation is in some reasonable proportion to the value of the work performed. In other words, if you design a $60,000,000 office building and you put in your contract that your liability is limited to $50,000, it is very possible that a court will rule that your clause is not reasonable or in the public interest. I have never heard an attorney or insurance representative advise that a "no liability" clause be used. They know such a clause would be thrown out by a court, regardless of whether both parties signed the contract.
Essentially, your limited liability typically needs to be some amount that will save you from complete ruin, but still allow an injured party to know that you felt a good sting due to your error(s).
One other thing to note, limitation of liability clauses in contracts protect you only from the other party or parties to that contract. There would be no limitation on your liability to third parties, such as the person hit by the falling piece of flashing described in a post above (assuming that person was not one of the signatories to the contract). That injured person could sue you for whatever they could get and your contract would be irrelevant. So, while you might be able to successfully limit your liability to your client(s), you are fully exposed to personal injury claims that might arise from your design.
BUT, if Gross Negligence is proven, then your indemnifications/limits of liability don't typically apply to my knowledge.
One other thing to note, limitation of liability clauses in contracts protect you only from the other party or parties to that contract. There would be no limitation on your liability to third parties, such as the person hit by the falling piece of flashing described in a post above
vs.
The contract is 'bent sharply in our favor' not because of our compensation, but as to our liability after the project is built which is zero.
The first two comments echo my intuition. Loremipsum, if I were you, regardless of what you can *technically* build in your state without an architect's stamp required, I would be very very wary of signing your name to any design that will be built in any form, unless you are carrying E&O & liability insurance. No matter how you feel that the contract was "in your favor" and insulated you from liability, ultimately that's never going to be 100% possible. This entire scenario has many red flags -- I hope you can appreciate that, regardless of what some might have supposed regarding your design quality.
''FYI - Our design was very reasonable, and the client was very happy with it :)
The client was expecting construction documents at the stage we were done with schematic designs.
some of you people have poison minds!''
Agree. The amount of negativity, bitterness and pessimism here is off the charts. [I'm not including those funny chaps and lasses who like to make cute sarcastic comments. Cant take things too seriously.]
I cannot encourage or stroke someone who dreamed up this ill conceived idea to take this project on and charge less than what someone makes at In and Out Burger! Sorry if that makes me negative.....I take what I do very seriously.
I cannot encourage or stroke someone who dreamed up this ill conceived idea to take this project on and charge less than what someone makes at In and Out Burger! Sorry if that makes me negative.....I take what I do very seriously.
It's not the content of what you said, it's the delivery. Everyone makes mistakes, there's no reason to have such a negative visceral PERSONAL reaction. Are you really suggesting that because you care about your profession that gives you license to be an asshole?
I'm not referencing just your comments, either. There are some on nearly every thread.
Does EVERYTHING have to be sugar coated, happy and positive? Dont post something if you dont want the full spectrum of responses, from a huge variety of experience levels that frequent this site. All sides should be examined.
And nearly every thread is a bit over the top, I think I have written something on maybe two or three threads here...so......
Oct 21, 09 2:17 pm ·
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So,
My partner and I took on a 'commission' last March to design a house. An oceanfront house, 5000+ SF in a high end market. We are straight out of school and unlicensed, we found this guy on Craigslist. He offered us 8$ an hour. We hired a lawyer, started a business, drew up a contract bent sharply in our favor and began.
Owner's position was that he wanted to hire some young architects who were going to give him something fun and creative, which turned out to mean slides instead of staircases, murphy beds, and an operable oceanside wall (which client generously hand drew details for...) After working with client for several months we provided a bill for our time, we had provided site surveying, measuring existing conditions, contextual research, built model of existing building, several client meetings, eight iterations of schematic designs and a rendering of one of the most realistic solutions. For this we had charged nearly 800$, about 100 hours of work.
Client responds that we are charging too much, and that if we continue on this path when we "aren't even to first base" that he should have gone with a rubber stamp architect (which he had tried twice before). Keep in mind that the property is appraised at $2.6 million.
As much as I would love to complete this project and get through all of the kinks and have our first built work out there for our 800$ fee, I can't do it. It is delay, delay, delay. I feel contempt for the owner for taking advantage of our services and feel unethical if I were to give him what he wants. At the same time I need closure, I sit down to work and there is always my conscious reminding me of a commitment that I made that is disintegrating and I have always upheld my end of the deal in past business.
Isn't craigslist mostly used to get screwed?
But seriously, if you signed a contract, sue the basterd. Some people buy belts for this amount of money and he gets a design for an entire house???
Notes :
- Client is a Real Estate Lawyer.
- Architecture Licensure is not required for design of a house in this state.
- Craigslist has treated me very well in the past.
1) not exactly sure what your scope of services is, but $8/hr is embarrassingly low. even for SD work, he would be paying tens of thousands of dollars.
2) the client is building a multi-million dollar mansion and is bitching about a few hundred bucks? something doesn't sound legit.
3) you need to clarify what exactly he wants (a set of CDs?, SD set to take to another architect?, etc.)
are you independently wealthy?
because if not you can't run a business per your description. i call b.s. (straight outta school and working for $8/hr no way!)
Clarifications :
- My partner and I both work full time in the Architecture industry, the business is a part time (extra cirricular job)
- Not independently wealthy
- Client claims to offer payment in 'reputation' as 'word travels fast' in this area where the house is located. This has some truth to it, the area is rapidly redeveloping and most of the houses are devoid of any architectural life at all. A good looking house could draw a lot of attention.
how is a contract paying you $8/hr '... bent sharply in (your) favor'?
if you're not lying, you cannot work for several months before sending the first invoice. did you get a retainer? did the client pay for the site survey? who hires a fake architect to design their oceanfront $2.6 million property and then pays them in 'reputation'?
dude, your 'reputation' will be 'willing to work for almost nothing'. this 'client' sounds like an absolute douche to work for. he's getting thousands of dollars worth of effort for pocket change; and complaining about it, too.
how much do you value your time and skills?
i'm not trying to be mean, but i've been through this and it's not worth it.
I'm with sectionalhealing and FRaC. This person sounds like an idiot who you should steer far away from. Someone who can afford a multi million dollar house should not be looking for people on Craigslist (unless it's for what randomized suggested). The fact that he couldn't talk to his friends to get a recommendation for an architect tells me he doesn't have many friends, and that he doesn't take construction, let alone architecture, seriously.
I mean for chrissake. My partner and I get paid in "reputation" because our clients all move in the same circles and recommend us highly - AND they pay us upwards of $100 per hour, because they value our expertise.
The fact that he's already burned through two architects should warn you.
Since you say you hired a lawyer to start up the business, call that lawyer back and ask for a letter saying that you are canceling out of the contract due to non-payment, end of story. Then run away. As fast as you can.
to add to lb's advice i would also suggest suing the guy in small claims court.
if you have '... provided site surveying, measuring existing conditions, contextual research, built model of existing building, several client meetings, eight iterations of schematic designs and a rendering of one of the most realistic solutions.' then it should be a slam dunk to get your $800.
EIGHT DOLLARS AN HOUR?! Are you kidding me? Do you realize you have to pay self-employment taxes to the tune of nearly 40% on those wages? Wow. I charge around $70 an hour for out-of-office design work, depending on client, and have never once had a problem getting paid.
Honestly, I would go after him in small claims court (you don't need a lawyer in small claims court, and the second you contact a lawyer you will be out your $800 anyway). You should know now, however, that you will never see this money (or you will have to go to more trouble than $800 is worth to see this money). This client knew what architectural services go for and intentionally sought out a rube on craigslist to take advantage of. I am very sorry for you that you are learning this lesson the hard way but trust me, this man never, ever, ever intended on paying you for all your effort. If he did, he would have gone to a reputable firm instead of using craigslist to search -- intentionally! -- for *students*, who as you might guess, obviously wouldn't know anything about the business. The fact that he is a real estate lawyer -- and therefore presumably knowledgeable about the construction and real estate industries -- is even more damning.
Do yourself a favor and never, ever undercut your services -- especially so extraordinarily deeply. You get what you sell yourself for (in this case, nothing). Again, this is a very good lesson to learn although I wish deeply that you had come on here earlier so we could have helped you learn this before you put so much effort into the work. I'm very sorry.
This is so fucked up I can't even express it. Even a shit drafting job pays minimum $15/hour, and you don't have to pay self-employment taxes. What on earth possessed you to think your hard-won education and talent was worth LESS THAN A BARISTA MAKES is beyond me. Please never make this mistake again.
Further Clarifications :
- We did get paid our $800.
- The contract is 'bent sharply in our favor' not because of our compensation, but as to our liability after the project is built which is zero.
Am I incorrect in assuming that in the future, as I am looking for future work that is legitimate and not in this area (we are planning to move far away in the near future) that it would be beneficial to have a large expansive house project built, client and contractor references, etc? Let's imagine that the client is great and loves every idea that rushes out of our pens and builds it and loves it, and our later clients see it and love it and hire us for a commission, are we then idiots for doing what amounts to extensive spec work?
There is a culture of performing design work for free that I am not happy about, but I am sure that I am not the only naive designer who has gone through this process.
Thanks for helping to clear my conscious anyways, I will soon go about ending our contract and moving on to greener pastures.
This is absolutely correct, but you need to focus on that word "legitimate". You have to pick your clients just like they pick you, and as you get more experience you'll be better at sensing who is going to make a good client and who is not going to be worth the pain.
Clients are inseparable from their projects; they leave their mark not only on you, your finances, your emotional well-being, but on the design and construction execution as well. Therefore, the "large expansive built house project" you thought you were going to have with this client was never a possibility from day one. It's not that you shouldn't seek out those opportunities -- of course you should -- it's just that those opportunities come from particular types of clients, and this guy isn't that type of client. Therefore you have to evaluate not just the "project" opportunity, but the client as well, when you are considering this kind of thing in the future. We're trying to help point out the red flags you missed this time around, so that next time, you'll have a better shot of evaluating your opportunities.
Also, following up on what liberty bell writes, clients tend to recommend other clients that have similar traits as themselves. This is not always the case, but more often than not, a referral from a tough client tends to end up as another tough client. And, don't think that you "happy client" is not sharing the fact that you were so cheap - making it very hard to all of a sudden charge their friends fair market rates.
Good points, thanks for the advice.
And keep in mind the following:
The client will probably say he came up with all the ideas, and you just drew them up.
The client is probably a jerk with everyone, and you will be "tainted" by his jerkiness. His "friends" will probably avoid you just because they don't really like him.
In my early just out of school days I did a residential project for a state supreme court justice. He screwed me on the fee, would not pay and laughed that he had a whole staff of lawyers to make my life awful if I tried to get my money. I never got a referral out of it, and everyone who knew him thought he was a jerk. The only way it helped my career was as a giant life lesson in picking clients, avoiding bad clients getting retainers up front, etc. By the way, a year later he was brought up on charges of having his assistants and law clerks buy him controlled drugs under various names with bogus prescriptions and was thrown off the supreme court.
so pathetic.
walk away from it, man.
This whole thing has bad idea written all over it!
Real estate lawyer? Real estate SHARK.
Chalk it up to ignorance.
Carol Ann, move away from the light!
Hire your own attorney, sue him if you can.
Carol Ann, move away from the light!
He knew what was up from the git-go, and you did not.
What?...you used pens???..Not Revit?
this happens to everyone (at least) once in their career. But do not back down. Get the fucking 800$ and get out of there.
This might be off tangent but I saw this article in business week and was astonished at what some entrepreneurs are charging for their services:
"Fees range from a few hundred dollars for a newsletter design to $2,500 for a Web site project; monthly retainer fees start around $2,500."
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/10/1009_entrepreneurs_25_and_under/6.htm
Sometimes, I question our, as in the architecture community, sense of value in relationship to our skills, time, resourcefulness, and knowledge. I know this has been said in numerous threads before, but we tend to let clients devalue our services for some apparent reason.
ovalle, the answer to your question is this: that WE don't see the value in what we do, so in some screwed way, by charging some ricockulous fee, we are essentially agreeing with the client; that any monkey can do our job.
value your education, value your skills, and value your profession. then and only then will clients value you.
failing that, get a gun and become a criminal.
i'd say take leon's advice!
Why are we so quick to blame the client....two kids just out of college, unlicensed, untested, INEXPERIENCED...Perhaps what the designers presented was crap? Perhaps what they dreamed up was not feasible....just saying..
mylieb has a point...
client probably got what they paid for, these "kids" probably got what they deserved.
sounds like they were made for each other.
I was thinking this over today and I question whether it is ultimately even possible to remove oneself from liability in the event of harm coming to the public from one's design. Anyone know anything about that? If you sign a contract with the owner saying "I am not liable and I'm not carrying insurance", and then one day some improperly fastened piece of incorrectly detailed flashing falls off the edge of the the roof and hits some poor person on the sidewalk, aren't you still liable regardless of what you signed with the client?
Well in terms of suing someone, someone hit by a piece of building is going to go after the owner, who is going to go after either the contractor or the architect. If the contractor is a corporate entity that has disbanded after doing one job - as is surprisingly common - then there might not be anyone to sue. but in my state, where being a licensed professional means you are personally liable for your design, even if I've disbanded my corporation a lawsuit can come after me as a person.
In which case, I think a contract saying I have no liability for construction flaws - not design flaws - is protection enough. But I'm not really sure.
I love this one...Schools make one big mistake and that is they let students graduate who think they can jump over skyscrapers. I can only image the design presented and well wonder how buildable it could be. Lots of nice curves and slides do not constitute a building design. Oh I guess that is why you tell the client he needs a structural engineer, and well the plumbing contractor can figure out how to plumb the place and the mechanical contractor he can figure out how to heat and cool the place...and well someone can fix the roof leaks cause...well....Mr. Wright he designed them into all of his buildings. If you had been successful with your design the guy would have been happy and given you a bottle of wine with a check for a $1,000.00. I think you failed your client. So go try again, and well from personal experience, your working for peanuts!
Exactly what I was wondering though -- can you ever, through contractual agreement with the client, protect yourself from liability due to DESIGN flaws? I don't think you can. Especially since, if the public is harmed -- well, you didn't sign anything with the public, did you?
I thought for sure there was a '0' missing at the end of all the fee numbers... It's actually embarrassing
FYI - Our design was very reasonable, and the client was very happy with it :)
The client was expecting construction documents at the stage we were done with schematic designs.
some of you people have poison minds!
Manta- you can come close. You can have a very strict indemnity clause in your contract basically stating that you have NO liability on the project. So, if a flashing detail does not work, the owner has given up the right to sue you.
Also, every contract should have a very strict Site Safety clause that states clearly that the GC is responsible for site safety. While your contract with the owner cannot bind the GC to anything, you can "warrant" that the Owner's contract with the GC will stipulate certain things making clear that they are 100% responsible for site safety.
BUT, if Gross Negligence is proven, then your indemnifications/limits of liability don't typically apply to my knowledge.
Poisoned minds? Your contract must not have been clear if the client was expecting CD level drawings in 80 hours for $800...You have shown your lack of experience and professionalism here. It was YOUR duty to make sure there were no misunderstandings of this magnitude. I side on the client on this one....Most clients are nuts....this does not make you any less responsible.
I'm not an attorney, but based on years of experience dealing with professional liability insurance representatives and attorneys representing both owners and design professionals, I will give my two cents on the "can you eliminate your liability" question.
Anyone can write anything they want in a contract and, at least some of the time, get another party to agree to it. However, valid enforceable contracts have to meet a slightly higher test than just "he signed it!" The answer to this question varies from state to state, but probably not significantly. In short, it is very close to impossible, if not completely impossible, to totally eliminate your liability for design work that you perform. You often read discussions on this forum and others about "limitation of liability clauses" in contracts. In most jurisdictions, limitation of liability is perfectly legal...but is has to be reasonable. In other words, most courts will look to a limitation of liability clause and see if the limitation is in some reasonable proportion to the value of the work performed. In other words, if you design a $60,000,000 office building and you put in your contract that your liability is limited to $50,000, it is very possible that a court will rule that your clause is not reasonable or in the public interest. I have never heard an attorney or insurance representative advise that a "no liability" clause be used. They know such a clause would be thrown out by a court, regardless of whether both parties signed the contract.
Essentially, your limited liability typically needs to be some amount that will save you from complete ruin, but still allow an injured party to know that you felt a good sting due to your error(s).
One other thing to note, limitation of liability clauses in contracts protect you only from the other party or parties to that contract. There would be no limitation on your liability to third parties, such as the person hit by the falling piece of flashing described in a post above (assuming that person was not one of the signatories to the contract). That injured person could sue you for whatever they could get and your contract would be irrelevant. So, while you might be able to successfully limit your liability to your client(s), you are fully exposed to personal injury claims that might arise from your design.
Be careful out there....
One other thing to note, limitation of liability clauses in contracts protect you only from the other party or parties to that contract. There would be no limitation on your liability to third parties, such as the person hit by the falling piece of flashing described in a post above
vs.
The contract is 'bent sharply in our favor' not because of our compensation, but as to our liability after the project is built which is zero.
The first two comments echo my intuition. Loremipsum, if I were you, regardless of what you can *technically* build in your state without an architect's stamp required, I would be very very wary of signing your name to any design that will be built in any form, unless you are carrying E&O & liability insurance. No matter how you feel that the contract was "in your favor" and insulated you from liability, ultimately that's never going to be 100% possible. This entire scenario has many red flags -- I hope you can appreciate that, regardless of what some might have supposed regarding your design quality.
''FYI - Our design was very reasonable, and the client was very happy with it :)
The client was expecting construction documents at the stage we were done with schematic designs.
some of you people have poison minds!''
Agree. The amount of negativity, bitterness and pessimism here is off the charts. [I'm not including those funny chaps and lasses who like to make cute sarcastic comments. Cant take things too seriously.]
I cannot encourage or stroke someone who dreamed up this ill conceived idea to take this project on and charge less than what someone makes at In and Out Burger! Sorry if that makes me negative.....I take what I do very seriously.
I cannot encourage or stroke someone who dreamed up this ill conceived idea to take this project on and charge less than what someone makes at In and Out Burger! Sorry if that makes me negative.....I take what I do very seriously.
mlag,
It's not the content of what you said, it's the delivery. Everyone makes mistakes, there's no reason to have such a negative visceral PERSONAL reaction. Are you really suggesting that because you care about your profession that gives you license to be an asshole?
I'm not referencing just your comments, either. There are some on nearly every thread.
Does EVERYTHING have to be sugar coated, happy and positive? Dont post something if you dont want the full spectrum of responses, from a huge variety of experience levels that frequent this site. All sides should be examined.
And nearly every thread is a bit over the top, I think I have written something on maybe two or three threads here...so......
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