OK I know this topic has been covered every which way from Sunday, but I wanted to get some thoughts about my specific case. Here's the deal
I'm a first year grad going to an art+design school that mostly uses Mac. However, the laptop requirement for Arch dept is a PC. In fact they have their own system they've configured and loaded (with software) for incoming students. The departments IT folks say they will offer some support if you purchase their system. About as painless as you can get (minus the cost) Here's the rub. I come from a graphic design background and have been all Mac for the last ten years. My current system is an old PowerBook and a 30" Apple cinema display and Adobe's CS for mac. In either case I'll need to get a new laptop, but I figure I can use the display either way (PC or Mac). Of course I'll be able to use my existing Adobe suite only on a Mac. Although I feel comfortable trouble shooting on a Mac, the department has offered to do most of the troubleshooting for the PC. If you were in my shoes, a totally intergrated Mac user who knows nothing about PC's (nothing) what would you do...get a MBP or go with the departments PC which is a HP EliteBook 8530w Mobile Workstation w/ 2.80 GHz running Windows Vista.
Here are three more points to consider...
1. I've had two upper level students tell me they've had no problem working from their Macs.
2. I'll have to learn the Windows OS if I get a Mac or if I get a PC. But I'd rather not use this OS for personal things.
right. OK
3. I really don't mind using a PC if it really does make a difference. But form the posts I've read here, there are pluses an minuses of both equating to a wash. How's that %Jack%
Windows Vista will be the biggest mistake you will ever make in your life. It might be the worlds worst operating system. That alone would make my decision for me.
The question is what software are they loading on the school PC and are you expected to turn in work done with that software -- you don't want to be converting CAD file formats on deadline. If they are expecting you to run a power-hungry program like Revit on the PC then you are probably better off with the set up they recommend.
I use Parallels/XP on my mac to run PC programs and it works fine, especially with 2 monitors, but I do find that I think twice about going to all the trouble to launch it just to do a quick drawing, which works against developing the intuitive grasp of the CAD software that comes from using it all the time.
And then there's the question of CAD-monkeydom after school - are your career goals going to lead to a firm that is running PC's? If so, might as well jump now. (or at least when Windows 7 comes out).
Stick with what you know and love. There are a plethora of programs that allow Windows to run concurrently and you can try them all to see which you like best and which runs the fastest. I grew up with Windows 95 until I pirated XP, quickly moved on to linux for a few years and now I have a mbp.
If you choose a Mac, you have the option of running any OS. If you buy a PC, you can only go back to your old powerbook for osx nostalgia.
.._. is speaking the truth about Vista. Windows 7 is almost out and I hear there are problems running photoshop already. You also have to worry about old software (created for 32 or 64 bit XP) running on Vista/7. I've heard horror stories about incompatibility with Vista.
^^That thing looks very clunky. I also don't like the black/grey placement. Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't care, but I bet you do care and agree.
Sometimes I say to myself, "I could have bought a similar spec'd PC for 1/2 the price" but the truth is that it would only be 1/64 the pleasure. The GUI is important because you interact with it all the time! You can also get a free iPod touch if you buy a Mac; sell it on ebay or craigslist and consider it a rebate.
Planned obsolescence. Just enough whiz & flash to open your wallet but it lasts as long as winter in a temperate climate (as many months as fingers or less).
Always chose the software first, then the OS, then the hardware. People get caught up with the beauty of Macs without realising the impact it could have on your day to day workflow.
I sold my Macbook Pro within 10 months after purchasing it. My conclusion was that macs aren't necessarily faster than a pc. Second of all, I spent most of the day using Windows thought bootcamp anyway. At first I had all the CAD/BIM software on Windows and everything else on the Mac side. It was a huge pain and very unproductive constantly rebooting between the two OS. Parallels is not an option for intensive cad work.
At this moment you can get a notebook with a special CAD graphics card ( Quadro line) , memory up to 16 GB, Quad core, Blue ray etc. You can get these options on a MacBook Pro
Good points from both sides. I get the sense the professors care more about the end result and less about which software program students used to get there. The department did not load Revit although I'm sure that upper level students try to pick it up and incorporate it. And to your other point Spruce, I can't realistically predict what opportunities I would follow after graduating, but as of right now last on the list (and I mean the very bottom...shoot me if I have to do this) is being a cadmonkey in a big firm that focuses on large commercial and institutional projects. No offense to those who enjoy doing this type of work, it's just not the scale or work environment that brought me back to school after ten years of earning my stripes in a different profession.
Anyone ever done any cad work for timberframed structures? What about less conventional infill (strawbale, cob/adobe, rammed earth etc.) I wonder what the best software to use for this type of work would be?
Is there a software suite that also assists with construction management, cut lists, material scheduling, etc?
Revit benchmarks faster on a macbook pro in windows mode than about any other comparble PC out there. And Autodesk is now supporting their windows products on Macs. Plus there are already comments out there that Revit 2010 is "unsupported" on Windows 7.
What products is Autodesk supporting? As far as I know they've put out survey, that's about it (correct me if I am wrong).
Windows 7 has had great reviews from the design community (graphic/web designers).
You are buying the same hardware, only difference is the operating system and design. Mac wins, hands down, for design. Personally, I hate OS X and Vista, and from what I have seen of W7 I am very optimistic.
Tech support has always been the killer for me. Until Apple supports overnight repairs on site, they aren't in the same professional league.
If any of these things change, I would switch and pay more for the design, but so far no changes.
I have to admit, though, that PCs are coming closer and closer. Decide for yourself:
Off topic, but that Autodesk page is scary if you have been around for while -- they have swallowed up an awful lot of good products - only ACAD and Inventor were developed in house!
Perhaps this is a question that deserves it's own post, but ultimately it has to do with which platform I drop money on. Is there a specific program that will manage the construction of residential size jobs while also being a fairly solid cad product. I'm probably not asking the question correctly or with the appropriate nomenclature. Laymans terms... Is there a cad program that will generate a materials list, material performance, and generate cost analysis reports based off of the design. If there is, does that program run better on a Mac or PC?
re: tidalwave - Revit benchmarks faster on a macbook pro in windows mode than about any other comparble PC out there
I clicked into your link and cannot find the critical details for the benchmark comparison. What I have seen are two lines of hardware description for the computers that were tested for revit performance, and that raised my skeptical to the reliability of the result
Corner 1: IBM T43p w/ 1 gig ram.
Corner 2: MacBook Pro Dual Core w/ 1 gig ram.
T43p (from google result) is a computer with Pentium M processor while it was being compared to a MacBook Pro with a Dual Core processor. The hardware difference is sort of huge. Other than that, specification of the 1GB ram (its actual speed in MHz etc), hard-drive and the graphic card will also account for the overall performance of each computer for revit.
+++++++
Weirdly but in fact a lot of people tend to compare a better equipped mac to a less equipped pc... and for many occasions, the price difference is not considered as a factor in the comparison.
The price difference for laptops (mac vs pc) may be less. However for desktop computers, you can often buy two PCs of same hardware configuration in the price of a mac, especially for latest models. You may be able to earn so-called sales service, sleek mac-looking, after-sales service (i'm not sure) while buying a mac... can you argue that this sort of things are worth the big price difference?
Nonetheless other factors such as user-friendliness, especially for people who do not know much about configuring a computer, is perhaps the main decisive factor for choosing between a mac and a pc.
i recently assembled a pc with i7-CPU (4cores, 8threads, overclocked to 4GHz), 12GB 1600mhz ram and a decent graphic card, only costing me around a thousand bucks, which in theory run all the software and handle large and complicated files without any troubles.
There's another thread over at AUGI that has the benchmarks.
I actually use a PC. I'm not necessarily saying Mac is the way to go but I do know people using it...
I'm in the group that thinks it depends on how and how much you value your user interface and appearance. I use a mac solely because it's a lot of fun. Everything is all smooth, straightforward, cool lookin', and... yea. That's about it. It's prettier, which I find definitely affects my workflow quite positively, at points being inspirational in it's simplicity.
Apple designers are just that, designers. They truly care about the aesthetics of the situation. PC companies... do not. Are you a designer who cares about aesthetics? If so, then I'd go for a mac. If you're more into cranking out dwgs and building an inexpensive monster, then definitely PC.
Of course, I vastly over-generalize... Plenty of aesthetically-oriented PC users and production-oriented mac users, I'm sure.
Stick with what you know, go for a mac since you can still run windows and you can use dropbox (or an express card SSD/SD card on the new 15" and 13" models) to keep everything synced between your operating systems. running multiple adobe software programs at the same time on a pc really slows the system down, i've had better experience on a mac in that department. Running all your pc software on bootcamp (32 bit vista here) is fine although i'm not sure what others have experienced especially on 64bit vista and windows 7... i've heard most people are still sticking to xp.
At home i'd get an external display and full sized keyboard to make things easier... you are set to be super productive with your 30" display plus your notebook display. What ever you decide to do just remember to back up, since even support with trouble shooting won't help you recover data.
As a former PC person who has been using PCs for 15 years, starting with MS-DOS....I had just switched to a MBP last year, and now I feel myself resisting booting over to the Windows side as much as possible. There is simply no comparison to the thoughtfulness put into the interface design.
Granted, I still have a PC workstation for the really heavy rendering and stuff, but when I am on the move I would say for most purposes MBP+Bootcamp will run almost anything you throw at it, plus you get to use the mac side to maintain your sanity from time to time. If the MBP has trouble handling it, by that point you should probably be using a desktop anyways (300+ megabyte Rhino files)
On the windows side I have run Max 2010, Maya, CATIA, Rhino+Grasshopper of course, and rendering programs such as Maxwell Render and Vray. Rendering times are decent but not awesome, especially if you are used to 8 or 16 core workstations. Just keep in mind as far as production goes, you will be using Windows most of the time, as the majority of programs architects use are Windows exclusive. Our school also only officially supports XP; for most programs XP is more stable, compatible, and there is a much larger installed user base so the aforementioned "google" troubleshooting is a lot easier.
That link there about the mac vs. pc comparison in revit is too old to be relevant. It was from way back when mbp's didn't have an officially supported driver....
mac vs pc...what again?
OK I know this topic has been covered every which way from Sunday, but I wanted to get some thoughts about my specific case. Here's the deal
I'm a first year grad going to an art+design school that mostly uses Mac. However, the laptop requirement for Arch dept is a PC. In fact they have their own system they've configured and loaded (with software) for incoming students. The departments IT folks say they will offer some support if you purchase their system. About as painless as you can get (minus the cost) Here's the rub. I come from a graphic design background and have been all Mac for the last ten years. My current system is an old PowerBook and a 30" Apple cinema display and Adobe's CS for mac. In either case I'll need to get a new laptop, but I figure I can use the display either way (PC or Mac). Of course I'll be able to use my existing Adobe suite only on a Mac. Although I feel comfortable trouble shooting on a Mac, the department has offered to do most of the troubleshooting for the PC. If you were in my shoes, a totally intergrated Mac user who knows nothing about PC's (nothing) what would you do...get a MBP or go with the departments PC which is a HP EliteBook 8530w Mobile Workstation w/ 2.80 GHz running Windows Vista.
Here are three more points to consider...
1. I've had two upper level students tell me they've had no problem working from their Macs.
2. I'll have to learn the Windows OS if I get a Mac or if I get a PC. But I'd rather not use this OS for personal things.
go mac or snack on flac.
i am waiting for your third point.
right. OK
3. I really don't mind using a PC if it really does make a difference. But form the posts I've read here, there are pluses an minuses of both equating to a wash. How's that %Jack%
Windows Vista will be the biggest mistake you will ever make in your life. It might be the worlds worst operating system. That alone would make my decision for me.
The question is what software are they loading on the school PC and are you expected to turn in work done with that software -- you don't want to be converting CAD file formats on deadline. If they are expecting you to run a power-hungry program like Revit on the PC then you are probably better off with the set up they recommend.
I use Parallels/XP on my mac to run PC programs and it works fine, especially with 2 monitors, but I do find that I think twice about going to all the trouble to launch it just to do a quick drawing, which works against developing the intuitive grasp of the CAD software that comes from using it all the time.
And then there's the question of CAD-monkeydom after school - are your career goals going to lead to a firm that is running PC's? If so, might as well jump now. (or at least when Windows 7 comes out).
I still suggest staying with a Mac.
Stick with what you know and love. There are a plethora of programs that allow Windows to run concurrently and you can try them all to see which you like best and which runs the fastest. I grew up with Windows 95 until I pirated XP, quickly moved on to linux for a few years and now I have a mbp.
If you choose a Mac, you have the option of running any OS. If you buy a PC, you can only go back to your old powerbook for osx nostalgia.
.._. is speaking the truth about Vista. Windows 7 is almost out and I hear there are problems running photoshop already. You also have to worry about old software (created for 32 or 64 bit XP) running on Vista/7. I've heard horror stories about incompatibility with Vista.
^^That thing looks very clunky. I also don't like the black/grey placement. Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't care, but I bet you do care and agree.
Sometimes I say to myself, "I could have bought a similar spec'd PC for 1/2 the price" but the truth is that it would only be 1/64 the pleasure. The GUI is important because you interact with it all the time! You can also get a free iPod touch if you buy a Mac; sell it on ebay or craigslist and consider it a rebate.
Do you really trust the school's IT department?
I stand corrected. Do you think they make them ugly on purpose?
Yes.
Planned obsolescence. Just enough whiz & flash to open your wallet but it lasts as long as winter in a temperate climate (as many months as fingers or less).
Always chose the software first, then the OS, then the hardware. People get caught up with the beauty of Macs without realising the impact it could have on your day to day workflow.
I sold my Macbook Pro within 10 months after purchasing it. My conclusion was that macs aren't necessarily faster than a pc. Second of all, I spent most of the day using Windows thought bootcamp anyway. At first I had all the CAD/BIM software on Windows and everything else on the Mac side. It was a huge pain and very unproductive constantly rebooting between the two OS. Parallels is not an option for intensive cad work.
At this moment you can get a notebook with a special CAD graphics card ( Quadro line) , memory up to 16 GB, Quad core, Blue ray etc. You can get these options on a MacBook Pro
Good points from both sides. I get the sense the professors care more about the end result and less about which software program students used to get there. The department did not load Revit although I'm sure that upper level students try to pick it up and incorporate it. And to your other point Spruce, I can't realistically predict what opportunities I would follow after graduating, but as of right now last on the list (and I mean the very bottom...shoot me if I have to do this) is being a cadmonkey in a big firm that focuses on large commercial and institutional projects. No offense to those who enjoy doing this type of work, it's just not the scale or work environment that brought me back to school after ten years of earning my stripes in a different profession.
Anyone ever done any cad work for timberframed structures? What about less conventional infill (strawbale, cob/adobe, rammed earth etc.) I wonder what the best software to use for this type of work would be?
Is there a software suite that also assists with construction management, cut lists, material scheduling, etc?
Revit benchmarks faster on a macbook pro in windows mode than about any other comparble PC out there. And Autodesk is now supporting their windows products on Macs. Plus there are already comments out there that Revit 2010 is "unsupported" on Windows 7.
Check this AUGI thread...
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=35939
and Adobe programs run faster on PCs.
What products is Autodesk supporting? As far as I know they've put out survey, that's about it (correct me if I am wrong).
Windows 7 has had great reviews from the design community (graphic/web designers).
You are buying the same hardware, only difference is the operating system and design. Mac wins, hands down, for design. Personally, I hate OS X and Vista, and from what I have seen of W7 I am very optimistic.
Tech support has always been the killer for me. Until Apple supports overnight repairs on site, they aren't in the same professional league.
If any of these things change, I would switch and pay more for the design, but so far no changes.
I have to admit, though, that PCs are coming closer and closer. Decide for yourself:
http://apcmag.com/dell-adamo-vs-apple-macbook-air.htm
Right, but still no Max or Autocad running on OS X.
The survey I mentioned was gathering information about possible interest in making Mac compatible versions.
Personally, tech support is crucial and Apple is not going to support their computers running Windows, so that makes it no tech support for Boot camp.
I hope things change, I like Macs a lot, but there are few significant things missing for the professional world.
What kind of tech support does one need?? I find Google to be more than sufficient for finding answers.
What kind of tech support does one need?? I find Google to be more than sufficient for finding answers.
The kind that comes to me to replace a broken DVD player or whatever
Off topic, but that Autodesk page is scary if you have been around for while -- they have swallowed up an awful lot of good products - only ACAD and Inventor were developed in house!
I fear for the safety of my beloved rhino. Stay away autodesk!
yep spruce.
Perhaps this is a question that deserves it's own post, but ultimately it has to do with which platform I drop money on. Is there a specific program that will manage the construction of residential size jobs while also being a fairly solid cad product. I'm probably not asking the question correctly or with the appropriate nomenclature. Laymans terms... Is there a cad program that will generate a materials list, material performance, and generate cost analysis reports based off of the design. If there is, does that program run better on a Mac or PC?
re: tidalwave - Revit benchmarks faster on a macbook pro in windows mode than about any other comparble PC out there
I clicked into your link and cannot find the critical details for the benchmark comparison. What I have seen are two lines of hardware description for the computers that were tested for revit performance, and that raised my skeptical to the reliability of the result
Corner 1: IBM T43p w/ 1 gig ram.
Corner 2: MacBook Pro Dual Core w/ 1 gig ram.
T43p (from google result) is a computer with Pentium M processor while it was being compared to a MacBook Pro with a Dual Core processor. The hardware difference is sort of huge. Other than that, specification of the 1GB ram (its actual speed in MHz etc), hard-drive and the graphic card will also account for the overall performance of each computer for revit.
+++++++
Weirdly but in fact a lot of people tend to compare a better equipped mac to a less equipped pc... and for many occasions, the price difference is not considered as a factor in the comparison.
The price difference for laptops (mac vs pc) may be less. However for desktop computers, you can often buy two PCs of same hardware configuration in the price of a mac, especially for latest models. You may be able to earn so-called sales service, sleek mac-looking, after-sales service (i'm not sure) while buying a mac... can you argue that this sort of things are worth the big price difference?
Nonetheless other factors such as user-friendliness, especially for people who do not know much about configuring a computer, is perhaps the main decisive factor for choosing between a mac and a pc.
i recently assembled a pc with i7-CPU (4cores, 8threads, overclocked to 4GHz), 12GB 1600mhz ram and a decent graphic card, only costing me around a thousand bucks, which in theory run all the software and handle large and complicated files without any troubles.
There's another thread over at AUGI that has the benchmarks.
I actually use a PC. I'm not necessarily saying Mac is the way to go but I do know people using it...
The trackpad on my Macbook Pro stopped working tonight...go with a pc.
</sarcasm, but seriously>
I'm in the group that thinks it depends on how and how much you value your user interface and appearance. I use a mac solely because it's a lot of fun. Everything is all smooth, straightforward, cool lookin', and... yea. That's about it. It's prettier, which I find definitely affects my workflow quite positively, at points being inspirational in it's simplicity.
Apple designers are just that, designers. They truly care about the aesthetics of the situation. PC companies... do not. Are you a designer who cares about aesthetics? If so, then I'd go for a mac. If you're more into cranking out dwgs and building an inexpensive monster, then definitely PC.
Of course, I vastly over-generalize... Plenty of aesthetically-oriented PC users and production-oriented mac users, I'm sure.
Stick with what you know, go for a mac since you can still run windows and you can use dropbox (or an express card SSD/SD card on the new 15" and 13" models) to keep everything synced between your operating systems. running multiple adobe software programs at the same time on a pc really slows the system down, i've had better experience on a mac in that department. Running all your pc software on bootcamp (32 bit vista here) is fine although i'm not sure what others have experienced especially on 64bit vista and windows 7... i've heard most people are still sticking to xp.
At home i'd get an external display and full sized keyboard to make things easier... you are set to be super productive with your 30" display plus your notebook display. What ever you decide to do just remember to back up, since even support with trouble shooting won't help you recover data.
http://www.getdropbox.com/
Now i wonder when apple will update their lines with intel's latest?
Thanks Kardiogramm. Good advice. Think I will stick with apple
As a former PC person who has been using PCs for 15 years, starting with MS-DOS....I had just switched to a MBP last year, and now I feel myself resisting booting over to the Windows side as much as possible. There is simply no comparison to the thoughtfulness put into the interface design.
Granted, I still have a PC workstation for the really heavy rendering and stuff, but when I am on the move I would say for most purposes MBP+Bootcamp will run almost anything you throw at it, plus you get to use the mac side to maintain your sanity from time to time. If the MBP has trouble handling it, by that point you should probably be using a desktop anyways (300+ megabyte Rhino files)
On the windows side I have run Max 2010, Maya, CATIA, Rhino+Grasshopper of course, and rendering programs such as Maxwell Render and Vray. Rendering times are decent but not awesome, especially if you are used to 8 or 16 core workstations. Just keep in mind as far as production goes, you will be using Windows most of the time, as the majority of programs architects use are Windows exclusive. Our school also only officially supports XP; for most programs XP is more stable, compatible, and there is a much larger installed user base so the aforementioned "google" troubleshooting is a lot easier.
Another vote for the MBP.
I wouldn't worry about Rhino being swallowed by Autodesk...you know, since it was originally developed as an Autocad plugin and all.
That link there about the mac vs. pc comparison in revit is too old to be relevant. It was from way back when mbp's didn't have an officially supported driver....
also, revit runs more than fine in parallels.
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