I am needing to learn a 3d modeling program for a masters program in interior design. The tree that the school recommends are 3D Studio Max, Rhinoceros and Sketchup. I know CAD but am not at all familiar with 3d programs so I was wondering which would be best for someone looking to do 3d rendered models for interiors?
From my experience:
-Rhino is user-friendly, easy to understand, intuitive in its use.
-3Dsmax is harder to grasp, but is amazing in terms of rendering light effects and interiors
If you can't pick just one, I'd suggest building a model in rhino, as it will be much quicker and easier, especially if you are doing detail work and such. Then import the rhino model into 3Dsmax and render it there.
Rhino will be easiest for you to pick up as the two programs (Rhino and CAD) share many of the same commands. It is such a powerful program that you can do so much with.
However, you would want to look into a rendering plug-in for Rhino, or import into 3Dsmax for renders as ORomaniuk suggested
Look at firms you'd like to work at. Find out what they are using. Find out the industry standard.
I get a lot of models from clients, from Microstation to Revit to SketchUp. I've never come across a Rhino model nor been asked if we can use them (for renderings).
rhino is more than worth exploring because it's interoperability is amazing it's speed power and easy of use too
the reason you would maybe not see so many rhino files even thou some of the hottest architects use it is because it is so good at sending data to other applications as well and receiving data from them
something you keep in house
conformity to anything understood as a 'industry standard' is not advisable and will only lead to towards being a better customer to anti competitive monopolistic ways of mega corporations who will not listen to users.
where as this week in active beta development of Rhino i got 2 new features i wanted
trace: there's a very simple explanation for that. why would anyone want a professional to render their rhino model if they can use vray or maxwell and make it look professional in house?
i tend to like rhino for its flexibility. i'm not limited to doing strict orthagonal design (ie sketchup, revit, autocad, etc) nor am i limited by the unitlessness of maya and its far simpler/ cheaper than max. plus the number of plugins/ ease of scripting in rhino is amazing. its basically limitless...
Plenty of our clients have inhouse talent, but rarely is there time to create perfect marketing images for the client in a timely manner. This is what we do, we do it well and we do it fast.
I've yet to come across an architecture firm that can do what a talented 3D firm can, even firms as large as Gensler or other behemoths. It just doesn't make sense to dedicate resources for marketing and take away from the architectural process.
3DMAX..end of story. yes it's a corporate giant that says - anything you can do I can do better, and IT CAN. i'm sure they have a team dismantling Rhino daily trying to figure out why it's so 'hip' with architects these days. Compared to 3DMAX, Rhino is like half a keyboard.
trace has a point, the difference between a 'high quality' in-house rendering and a 'high quality' marketing rendering is huge, although with VRAY making anyone look like a render champ it's harder to tell these days. I remember the old school Raytracing days, where you had to master tricks of the trade to make things hot.
to get from say a VRAY image that is almost perfect with a slight grainy feel because in-house had to do it overnight to a clean-crisp marketing perfection is a matter weeks, seriously.
on top of that, when renderings are done in house the designer if he's around will keep changing stuff and running the budget down, if you send it out the designer (who probably should be designing anyway) won't have a chance to realize ever design suggestion they had really didn't look that good.
like i've always said, if you need to constantly draw and build models to determine a great design, perhaps you shouldn't be designing.
K.J. i've argued the last sentence many times under other names on this forum...it would deserve another thread, and it's not worth it. i've decided so what if I can make $1000/hr designing while some poor schmuck slaves over a zillion models in the office, while I am out drinking. not really my problem, is it?
i could only wish to be a part owner, but being a driver who has experience in every car and choosing the one with the proper efficiency to power ratio is a very positive experience.
shouldboy ;) needs self reflection for his alter ego
(by the way, poster of this thread, it's really about your logic being efficiently accomadate by some software's logic, so WE here can't really tell you whats best)
Thank you all for your thoughts on this! After further research I'm wondering if since this would be my first attempt at any type of 3d program and so as to not spend a ton of money if sketchup with a vray plug-in for rendering might be the way to go? Let me know what you think.... Thanks so much!
SU is a great little program, but somewhat limited. The problem you run into is that it is not like most 3D programs. For example, if you learned Max and jumped to Maya, you'd still understand the fundamentals (or almost any other 3D program).
Sketch-up isn't even half a keyboard, it's like the number pad and that's it...People have asked me technicaly SU questions, and not having really used it much, I often figure the limits out in 15 minutes and go 'well if you had 3dMax or even AutoCAD you wouldn't be so limitied"
trace is right, there are fundamentals to 3d Modeling that Rhino, Maya, and Max all share and Sketch-up does not. you may learn SU quickly, but in the long run it's not worth it.
3d studio max is for rendering, lighting, materials, the works... It's a surface modeller, does some things really well, other things not so much...
sketchup is for *sketching*... quick output etc. which is useful, study details, sketch an idea, etc. there are some nice things about the push and pull, that you are constantly working in a hidden line 3D view which people can understand and relate to, etc. but it's not that quick for output... you need more before you can show somebody like a line drawing, and it's actually not quite as flexible as sketchup for something quick, push and pull... *illustration* looking output...
I would learn 3d studio max first, (as well as autocad for 2D stuff), and sketchup will be easy to use once you have those down... actually, instead of buying the software, i would take a class on 3d studiomax first... use it in the computer lab, and once you are in school, they will probablly have it at the school's computer lab anyway...
you can actually customize all of the sketchup keystrokes to mimic 3D studio max keys so that it's easy to work in both depending on what you need to do, but if you know max, you can do almost everything pretty well... when working in sketchup is to constantly make groups and components... i set group to ctrl-g in sketchup, that way I can constantly draw and group objects... otherwise everything is just a line or surface and it can get messy...
these days, I think you need to know different software to be flexible... technology keeps changing it's important to be able to adapt to whatever software tool you have in front of you once you are out in the workplace...
I would discourage you from using sketch up or 3d max.
Sketchup is weak and limits your design.
3dmax has more tools then you need as an architect unless you want to do some hardcore animation.
Work on learning rhino while using maxwell to render in.
Then focus on learning some coding and parametric modeling.
The Grasshopper plugin for Rhino is good to learn some basics but in the end is a fery weak and clumsy tool. Try to pick up a copy of revit.
Rhino - Complex surface modeling (not for comprehensive buildings necessarily, i.e. complex wall/roof/panelized system but not for documenting entire buildings)
Sketchup - Basic and generalized modeling and rendering of simple structures (schematic and where accuracy is not an issue)
Revit - Documentation of entire buildings, and some production renderings/animations
To me, there is little overlap between these software which in a way is a good thing. I think the problem is when people pits these softwares against each other instead of using them together. I realize not everyone can afford all the different softwares for everything: but in an academic setting you are getting heavily "discounted" software (legit and maybe not-so-legit), and in a professional setting it depends on the kind of work you do so you don't need all the software unless you're a large company (in which case you can afford all the different software anyway).
In defense of sketch up...its a great fast 3d tool.
So many programs: photoshop, 3dmax, autoCAD 2009 etc. have way more functions and tools than you really need. They are overly complex and hard to learn. Sketch Up is quick and easy and intuitive. Of course it has limitations but its a great way to start the process of design and get some quick massing studies done. Its also good to get some basic context modeled. There is also a Vray plug in or Podium to get decent renders. With these plugins you can also add lights, textures, reflections etc.
It isn't the best tool in the world. Its limited but for the the learning curve, and most importantly the cost it really can't be beat.
That being said...if I had to learn a program I would chose Rhino. It seems to balance the simplicity and intuitive aspect of sketchup with the power of 3d max. A nice balance. And again, the rendering plug ins work fine. I still think that photo-realistic renderings are mostly unnecessary to actually design. They are great for developers to round up funding for the project or start making sales though, but at that stage renderings can easily be contracted out to a professional rendering firm.
Learn Sketch Up and Rhino and master Photoshop and you will be fine. Don't worry about mastering renderings unless you want to sit in an architecture office and render other people's designs. If that turns you on then go for it all.
Agree with Slartibartfast... I'd learn all of the above.
The issue with Rhino is: it's not that widely used in firms, it's probably enough for school, but you might not have it at your office... When working, it's important, both in your own firm and when working with other firms to be able to work with industry standard software... Sometimes you might need to work with rendering firms and they'll usually probably use 3D studio max...
Revit will be good to know too... But the more software you can pick up the better, once you know one, it'll be easier to pick up others...
Revit would be #1 for architecture, but he was asking for interior design.
Is there any use for Revit in interior design?
Personally, I still love FormZ, but that's what I know and can move fast with (Max sucks for designing things). But I'll be switching to Revit soon (but my God, talk about a rip off of a price tag!! how nice they throw in Acad and Arch Desktop for "only" $500 more).
I do wish there was an alternative to Autodesk. Their pricing structure is abusive, to say the least.
The reason I like Rhino a lot better than 3d Studio for the MODELLING process is the fact that it is much more precise than MAX. Its snaps are better, its tolerances are better. Anytime you want to 3d Print something you would use Rhino. Nowadays most jewelers use Rhino; they make the 3d Model, print it in 3d, cover it in wax or some other protective media; and then cover the mold in gold/silver or another metal. 3d Studio is a much more powerful tool for animations or cinematography. Its original use was not for architecture.Some scenes in the matrix were created/coordinated using 3d Studio!
And perhaps the MAIN difference between Rhino and Max is that Rhino is a NURBS modelling tool. N-U-R-B-S stands for Nonuniform Rational B-Spline. It is a mathematical algorithm for representing curved surfaces. I don't know if you have noticed, but everything is MAX is triangulated/faceted. That is why when you import from Rhino into MAX, all your nice curved geometry becomes triangulated. The difference in modelling logic is what causes difficulty in transfering a model from one program into another.
Last but not least, Rhino's plug-in called "grasshopper" is an amazing tool for creating parametric models. To an extent- REVIT is parametric because components in REVIT are all controlled by certain paramaters. REVIT however is not as advanced as Rhino w/ Grasshopper in terms of modelling because it does not allow you the same amount of freedom to incorporate your own scripts. Think of it this way: you want a specific function built into a model (say energy analysis). MAX may have a plug-in for it and Rhino doesn't, but you can surely program your model to output the information you want. Rather than waiting for someone to come out with a plug-in for MAX, Rhino w/ grasshopper allows you to do everything yourself. And for this reason, there is an entire major dedicated to this type of computer modelling at universities like Columbia and Carnegie Mellon.
In sum, 3d Studio and Rhino and both good programs for different uses. Other programs like CAD and microstation are just basic vesions of these programs and Sketch-Up is exactly for that (sketching-up.) Using sketch up for final work is like not having the talent to draw and yet not having the ambition to learn professional software (for which I ask: why even consider yourself an architect?) And for those of you who still like using FormZ- Stop right now... that is the worst program to use for anything.
Based on what you're studying, I say go with 3DS Max. I'd have said Rhino if you were an architecture student since the work you do in Rhino could easily be transferred for manufacturing, and it has powerful plugins like Grasshopper, and implemented with Python, VBscript etc. However, you'll likely not require those to model renderings and visualizations, so 3DS Max is the better and quicker option as it has a powerful rendering engine, animation capabalities (Rhino sucks in this area), lighting and camera options. Throwing up ideas and modelling quickly with many iterations is easy in Max since its primarily poly based modelling. Rhino is primarily nurbs (suited for the manufacturing industry that require accuracy and high tolerances) so takes much longer time to model, explore options and make changes quickly.
If you need a software for more than just visualization/renderings, go with Rhino.
3D Studio Max or Rhinoceros or Sketchup?
I am needing to learn a 3d modeling program for a masters program in interior design. The tree that the school recommends are 3D Studio Max, Rhinoceros and Sketchup. I know CAD but am not at all familiar with 3d programs so I was wondering which would be best for someone looking to do 3d rendered models for interiors?
one hand for each program
From my experience:
-Rhino is user-friendly, easy to understand, intuitive in its use.
-3Dsmax is harder to grasp, but is amazing in terms of rendering light effects and interiors
If you can't pick just one, I'd suggest building a model in rhino, as it will be much quicker and easier, especially if you are doing detail work and such. Then import the rhino model into 3Dsmax and render it there.
I love Sketchup, but as far as I know there is no way to put lights in your model, other than the sun. Not the best for interiors...
All the above!
Rhino will be easiest for you to pick up as the two programs (Rhino and CAD) share many of the same commands. It is such a powerful program that you can do so much with.
However, you would want to look into a rendering plug-in for Rhino, or import into 3Dsmax for renders as ORomaniuk suggested
REVIT!
;)
-Jeff
www.therevitkid.com
rhino
No Revit----
Rhino and no export to 3d max --- vray for rhino, maxwell for rhino
Brazil and or Flamingo nXt plus Penguin
3D Studio Max with VRay if you want the most flexibility.
Max is quite good for small, detail modeling, like furniture.
You'll have the most access to resources, such as furniture, materials, plants, etc.
Other advantages are that you'll be able to work with future clients and consultants easier.
rhino with a vray pug-in
Look at firms you'd like to work at. Find out what they are using. Find out the industry standard.
I get a lot of models from clients, from Microstation to Revit to SketchUp. I've never come across a Rhino model nor been asked if we can use them (for renderings).
Just something to keep in mind.
Trace -- add AutoCAD Architecture's renderings to your list, and that's what I see as well.
Is Rhino worth exploring?
rhino is more than worth exploring because it's interoperability is amazing it's speed power and easy of use too
the reason you would maybe not see so many rhino files even thou some of the hottest architects use it is because it is so good at sending data to other applications as well and receiving data from them
something you keep in house
conformity to anything understood as a 'industry standard' is not advisable and will only lead to towards being a better customer to anti competitive monopolistic ways of mega corporations who will not listen to users.
where as this week in active beta development of Rhino i got 2 new features i wanted
trace: there's a very simple explanation for that. why would anyone want a professional to render their rhino model if they can use vray or maxwell and make it look professional in house?
i tend to like rhino for its flexibility. i'm not limited to doing strict orthagonal design (ie sketchup, revit, autocad, etc) nor am i limited by the unitlessness of maya and its far simpler/ cheaper than max. plus the number of plugins/ ease of scripting in rhino is amazing. its basically limitless...
Plenty of our clients have inhouse talent, but rarely is there time to create perfect marketing images for the client in a timely manner. This is what we do, we do it well and we do it fast.
I've yet to come across an architecture firm that can do what a talented 3D firm can, even firms as large as Gensler or other behemoths. It just doesn't make sense to dedicate resources for marketing and take away from the architectural process.
Simply comes down to being good at what you do.
the ability to integrate the production and rendering environment under one app sure saves time
Antithenes you sure you don't work for Rhino?
3DMAX..end of story. yes it's a corporate giant that says - anything you can do I can do better, and IT CAN. i'm sure they have a team dismantling Rhino daily trying to figure out why it's so 'hip' with architects these days. Compared to 3DMAX, Rhino is like half a keyboard.
trace has a point, the difference between a 'high quality' in-house rendering and a 'high quality' marketing rendering is huge, although with VRAY making anyone look like a render champ it's harder to tell these days. I remember the old school Raytracing days, where you had to master tricks of the trade to make things hot.
to get from say a VRAY image that is almost perfect with a slight grainy feel because in-house had to do it overnight to a clean-crisp marketing perfection is a matter weeks, seriously.
on top of that, when renderings are done in house the designer if he's around will keep changing stuff and running the budget down, if you send it out the designer (who probably should be designing anyway) won't have a chance to realize ever design suggestion they had really didn't look that good.
like i've always said, if you need to constantly draw and build models to determine a great design, perhaps you shouldn't be designing.
What does your last sentence mean, eigenvectors?
K.J. i've argued the last sentence many times under other names on this forum...it would deserve another thread, and it's not worth it. i've decided so what if I can make $1000/hr designing while some poor schmuck slaves over a zillion models in the office, while I am out drinking. not really my problem, is it?
no your problem is projection and assumption
worker owned, user driven
i could only wish to be a part owner, but being a driver who has experience in every car and choosing the one with the proper efficiency to power ratio is a very positive experience.
shouldboy ;) needs self reflection for his alter ego
i don't follow...
(by the way, poster of this thread, it's really about your logic being efficiently accomadate by some software's logic, so WE here can't really tell you whats best)
even being a driver is subjective.
quarkxpress!
oh wait, i mean rhino.
Thank you all for your thoughts on this! After further research I'm wondering if since this would be my first attempt at any type of 3d program and so as to not spend a ton of money if sketchup with a vray plug-in for rendering might be the way to go? Let me know what you think.... Thanks so much!
Students "buy" their software!?
Unfortunately yes
There are discounts for students.
SU is a great little program, but somewhat limited. The problem you run into is that it is not like most 3D programs. For example, if you learned Max and jumped to Maya, you'd still understand the fundamentals (or almost any other 3D program).
Sketch-up isn't even half a keyboard, it's like the number pad and that's it...People have asked me technicaly SU questions, and not having really used it much, I often figure the limits out in 15 minutes and go 'well if you had 3dMax or even AutoCAD you wouldn't be so limitied"
trace is right, there are fundamentals to 3d Modeling that Rhino, Maya, and Max all share and Sketch-up does not. you may learn SU quickly, but in the long run it's not worth it.
they're different
3d studio max is for rendering, lighting, materials, the works... It's a surface modeller, does some things really well, other things not so much...
sketchup is for *sketching*... quick output etc. which is useful, study details, sketch an idea, etc. there are some nice things about the push and pull, that you are constantly working in a hidden line 3D view which people can understand and relate to, etc. but it's not that quick for output... you need more before you can show somebody like a line drawing, and it's actually not quite as flexible as sketchup for something quick, push and pull... *illustration* looking output...
I would learn 3d studio max first, (as well as autocad for 2D stuff), and sketchup will be easy to use once you have those down... actually, instead of buying the software, i would take a class on 3d studiomax first... use it in the computer lab, and once you are in school, they will probablly have it at the school's computer lab anyway...
you can actually customize all of the sketchup keystrokes to mimic 3D studio max keys so that it's easy to work in both depending on what you need to do, but if you know max, you can do almost everything pretty well... when working in sketchup is to constantly make groups and components... i set group to ctrl-g in sketchup, that way I can constantly draw and group objects... otherwise everything is just a line or surface and it can get messy...
these days, I think you need to know different software to be flexible... technology keeps changing it's important to be able to adapt to whatever software tool you have in front of you once you are out in the workplace...
I would discourage you from using sketch up or 3d max.
Sketchup is weak and limits your design.
3dmax has more tools then you need as an architect unless you want to do some hardcore animation.
Work on learning rhino while using maxwell to render in.
Then focus on learning some coding and parametric modeling.
The Grasshopper plugin for Rhino is good to learn some basics but in the end is a fery weak and clumsy tool. Try to pick up a copy of revit.
This is my take on the whole thing:
3dsMax - Presentation quality Renderings & Animations
Rhino - Complex surface modeling (not for comprehensive buildings necessarily, i.e. complex wall/roof/panelized system but not for documenting entire buildings)
Sketchup - Basic and generalized modeling and rendering of simple structures (schematic and where accuracy is not an issue)
Revit - Documentation of entire buildings, and some production renderings/animations
To me, there is little overlap between these software which in a way is a good thing. I think the problem is when people pits these softwares against each other instead of using them together. I realize not everyone can afford all the different softwares for everything: but in an academic setting you are getting heavily "discounted" software (legit and maybe not-so-legit), and in a professional setting it depends on the kind of work you do so you don't need all the software unless you're a large company (in which case you can afford all the different software anyway).
In defense of sketch up...its a great fast 3d tool.
So many programs: photoshop, 3dmax, autoCAD 2009 etc. have way more functions and tools than you really need. They are overly complex and hard to learn. Sketch Up is quick and easy and intuitive. Of course it has limitations but its a great way to start the process of design and get some quick massing studies done. Its also good to get some basic context modeled. There is also a Vray plug in or Podium to get decent renders. With these plugins you can also add lights, textures, reflections etc.
It isn't the best tool in the world. Its limited but for the the learning curve, and most importantly the cost it really can't be beat.
That being said...if I had to learn a program I would chose Rhino. It seems to balance the simplicity and intuitive aspect of sketchup with the power of 3d max. A nice balance. And again, the rendering plug ins work fine. I still think that photo-realistic renderings are mostly unnecessary to actually design. They are great for developers to round up funding for the project or start making sales though, but at that stage renderings can easily be contracted out to a professional rendering firm.
Learn Sketch Up and Rhino and master Photoshop and you will be fine. Don't worry about mastering renderings unless you want to sit in an architecture office and render other people's designs. If that turns you on then go for it all.
Agree with Slartibartfast... I'd learn all of the above.
The issue with Rhino is: it's not that widely used in firms, it's probably enough for school, but you might not have it at your office... When working, it's important, both in your own firm and when working with other firms to be able to work with industry standard software... Sometimes you might need to work with rendering firms and they'll usually probably use 3D studio max...
Revit will be good to know too... But the more software you can pick up the better, once you know one, it'll be easier to pick up others...
Revit would be #1 for architecture, but he was asking for interior design.
Is there any use for Revit in interior design?
Personally, I still love FormZ, but that's what I know and can move fast with (Max sucks for designing things). But I'll be switching to Revit soon (but my God, talk about a rip off of a price tag!! how nice they throw in Acad and Arch Desktop for "only" $500 more).
I do wish there was an alternative to Autodesk. Their pricing structure is abusive, to say the least.
intellicad 100% autocad clone
look out for Ares and also look into Archimedes
and rhinoceros is a fine alternative to it too
doublecad and i just got a e-mail about progecad smart
199$
free
free
free
25 saves free - 140$
These days you can do 3d models in photoshop and use the filters to make a good rendering.
The reason I like Rhino a lot better than 3d Studio for the MODELLING process is the fact that it is much more precise than MAX. Its snaps are better, its tolerances are better. Anytime you want to 3d Print something you would use Rhino. Nowadays most jewelers use Rhino; they make the 3d Model, print it in 3d, cover it in wax or some other protective media; and then cover the mold in gold/silver or another metal. 3d Studio is a much more powerful tool for animations or cinematography. Its original use was not for architecture.Some scenes in the matrix were created/coordinated using 3d Studio!
And perhaps the MAIN difference between Rhino and Max is that Rhino is a NURBS modelling tool. N-U-R-B-S stands for Nonuniform Rational B-Spline. It is a mathematical algorithm for representing curved surfaces. I don't know if you have noticed, but everything is MAX is triangulated/faceted. That is why when you import from Rhino into MAX, all your nice curved geometry becomes triangulated. The difference in modelling logic is what causes difficulty in transfering a model from one program into another.
Last but not least, Rhino's plug-in called "grasshopper" is an amazing tool for creating parametric models. To an extent- REVIT is parametric because components in REVIT are all controlled by certain paramaters. REVIT however is not as advanced as Rhino w/ Grasshopper in terms of modelling because it does not allow you the same amount of freedom to incorporate your own scripts. Think of it this way: you want a specific function built into a model (say energy analysis). MAX may have a plug-in for it and Rhino doesn't, but you can surely program your model to output the information you want. Rather than waiting for someone to come out with a plug-in for MAX, Rhino w/ grasshopper allows you to do everything yourself. And for this reason, there is an entire major dedicated to this type of computer modelling at universities like Columbia and Carnegie Mellon.
In sum, 3d Studio and Rhino and both good programs for different uses. Other programs like CAD and microstation are just basic vesions of these programs and Sketch-Up is exactly for that (sketching-up.) Using sketch up for final work is like not having the talent to draw and yet not having the ambition to learn professional software (for which I ask: why even consider yourself an architect?) And for those of you who still like using FormZ- Stop right now... that is the worst program to use for anything.
Revit-Python
Based on what you're studying, I say go with 3DS Max. I'd have said Rhino if you were an architecture student since the work you do in Rhino could easily be transferred for manufacturing, and it has powerful plugins like Grasshopper, and implemented with Python, VBscript etc. However, you'll likely not require those to model renderings and visualizations, so 3DS Max is the better and quicker option as it has a powerful rendering engine, animation capabalities (Rhino sucks in this area), lighting and camera options. Throwing up ideas and modelling quickly with many iterations is easy in Max since its primarily poly based modelling. Rhino is primarily nurbs (suited for the manufacturing industry that require accuracy and high tolerances) so takes much longer time to model, explore options and make changes quickly.
If you need a software for more than just visualization/renderings, go with Rhino.
Learn (in order) and use ALL in concert:
Rhino
Sketchup
3DS Max
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