This doesn't answer your question, camhard, but the shoe is on the other foot with your post.

I had never seen the term "keener" before, and had to go look it up to see that it's a proper word and not slang. So you in your (frustrated) enthusiasm taught me something.

But, I had to go look it up in order to learn it. I couldn't have prepared for that.

It's frustrating to sit in the same room with an effusive keener, it's true. Why not see this as an opportunity for you to speak up more? It's your tuition and your education, too, you know. Time to be a little bolder and stake your claim in the classroom or studio. And don't worry, in this process you will become more confident of your knowledge and opinions.

keener: (Canadian slang, noun) Individual eager to demonstrate knowledge or participate enthusiastically in school, church, seminars, etc. Like nerd, geek, brown-noser, smartypants, etc. but with more emphasis on willingness and enthusiasm, and less on social inadequacy, sycophancy, or natural ability.

Does posting definitions make me a keener?

^meh, only if you keep it up... it kind of contributes something to this discussion though, as apparently it is not as widely used as I thought.

Seriously though, I probably shouldn't post this because I'm sure people from my class will at some point read this, and who I am isn't exactly hard to figure out, but...
Here's a post from today (remember, this is an undergraduate program):
"Gehry: 100% dud, or only 99.9? - This guy’s designs have always affected my neurons strongly, although on a much more inferior level than jujol’s. His architecture is like petting a dog from tail to head. If Eugene Viollet-le-Duc had met Frank Gehry he would have puked down his shirt. Really, he would have!"

Seriously: One, while as I've stated above that I don't really know a whole lot, I'm pretty sure they don't just arbitrarily hand out Pritzkers to weak designers. How rediculously pompous is it to not only make a claim that a respected, famous architect is actually no good, but to do so to a bunch of peers who you have never met. Name dropping doesn't make you a smart or experienced. I could google 10 famous architects, see that they don't even work in the same style and say that they would all be turning in their graves if they saw each others work. "His architecture is like petting a dog from tail to head"????? I mean I've never actually experienced a Gehry building, but I'm pretty sure they aren't that awkward. They certainly don't look it to my untrained eye.

This is the kind of thing I want to be ready for. They can name drop all they want, but I want to be able to actually understand/develop some sort of supported argument, rather than broadly discussing extremely well-known architects and coming up with strange similes.

Are there any similarities between Gehry's and Jujol or le Duc's work? These are the things I want to be able to notice. I mean, both Jujol and Gehry seem to like very dynamic lines (I don't even know if this is an appropriate way of describing the curves in their work); does this mean anything?

Citizen - I definitely need to become more vocal, I just really hate being wrong. If I knew that I was prepared for any challenges (even if they are unrelated), I'd be more likely to be confident enough to speak up.

Soon you will realize, he or she is your dog!

aren't the youth supposed to be unbelievably flippant and tear down the reigning masters? Isn't that how shit/the guard gets changed? your peers are probably grasping for cred and most likely are parroting actual published criticism of Mr. Gehry.

also, name-dropping, however obsequious, is incredibly useful.

Camhard, there is no wrong in these discussions, there is only more or less assertive. Seriously, this guy is just spouting his opinions, that's it. He sounds supremely confident in his expression, it's true, but that does not make him correct, or even smart, for that matter.

I remember sitting in on film courses as an undergrad (no, not silent movies, though almost) and being amazed and apalled at all the pompous blather I heard being uttered by film students. To use some big words: supercilious and meretricious commentary, each trying to outdo the other.

It wasn't until years later that I realized: oh, my God. Some architecture students are even bigger blowhards than those cinema windbags.

There is no way you can stay ahead of this type of personality. He will opine only on things he's confident of, and there's no predictor for that. I say, relax and study up on what interests you. Don't worry over or try to compete with the ersatz intellectual. It's a losing battle.

KEENER!!

Do you really still use this? I haven't heard it in ages

Other words I love from Canadia (also used by townies from Michigan, Illinois, upstate NY):

twofer (pack of 24 beers)
hoofed in the nuts
burnout
skid
cougar (I first heard it way back in Vancouver)
YYZ RULES
BT's (not British Telecom)

oh yeah, they also don't use plurals in referring to beer (to compensate for the LEAFS)

'hey guy, we went up to Algonquin and must've drank 200 beer.'

apologies to any Canadians - especially those of you from Tronno - I haven't lived there in years

^ hahaha so true. To my Western Canadian ear, hearing "lets go to the LC and pick up some BEERS" sounds horribly foreign. It's something only the exchange students would say, along with words like "fishes" or "mooses".
I actually had to explain it to a Norwegian friend one time, being quite adamant that it was the correct way to say it, despite what any American (or worse yet, grammar book) might tell her otherwise.

Also, it's much more commonly called a two-four (as opposed to a twofer). In Ontario, they even call the Victoria Day holiday "May two-four", a double entendre referring both to the date, and the common practice of drinking plenty of beer.

As for the real point of this thread. Lighten up you keener!
Just read up and immerse yourself in information. Learn to simply talk about architecture before necessarily "critiquing" it.

my philosophy on life is don't complain, get angry about something you can't change.This post just seems an observant revelation that there are annoying people in the world. Is there anything you can do practically to stop their behavior? I don't really think so. People have the right to speak their minds no matter how horrible you find their personalities to be. The only thing that can be changed is your attitude (sometimes that can't even be changed) about them. Be happy and try ignoring them. I think that is a good solution to this problem. Also, I think one unhelpful trait a person has is judging/guessing what other people are. I try to judge only when it is practical for me to do so (jobs, people that will affect my goals in life). This sounds selfish, but I am being honest. And I try to only judge people that directly affect me (is this person intentionally trying to harm my existence?). If those people are being malicious and hurting you and you know that for sure - talk to them directly. But if its just their personalities, let it go. The only thing you can do is better yourself. Find out your own weaknesses objectively (not saying you have any) and build up on them.

I agree with citizen, there are no wrongs or rights. It's how you perceive the world.

If you have a hard time voicing your opinions in class, why don't you meet your professor during office hours. In my opinion, having colleagues are great to discuss and expand ideas but your professor is the main person that counts. Privately, show him what type of person you are without other people clouding your viewpoint. I do this, and it works. You can create a much better relationship with someone 1 on 1.

Being formerly from Torrono and now living in Winterpeg, I approve of this message.

I didn't know that 'keener' was a Canadian thing. For more, go here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/anthonywright/cdneng.html

I have nothing of value to contribute to this thread, except maybe to say that deep down we're all insecure, just don't let anyone in studio see it. In other words, fake it till ya make it.

Seriously though, if you're curious about how uplifting or devastating confidence can be, watch Pumping Iron, the old documentary with Arnold Schwarzenegger. He walks into a room with his huge smile, and you can see his competitors actually deflate. Incredible.

Wow, I learned a new word AND I can apply it exactly to someone I know. Thanks camhard!

Also, in my experience, the only legitimate "keeners" are the ones who are able to reference history and international projects off the tip of their tongue. The others are usually BSing you. Many people are much better at the latter than the former.

PS. Hi Dustin! Although I've never seen it I can totally picture that bit about the Governator in my head. He said about as much in the speech he gave us at graduation. Hilarious.

as in from being too keen?

camhard,

Architecture, for me at least, is more about pursuing a design solution for a client. In that way, its a pursuit of a pure, essential expression of my understanding of their needs, impressed upon by the conditions and circumstances of the site and greater environment. In that way its a pursuit of truth. And the pursuit of truth leads one to discover beauty.

I'm mentioning this because by taking this approach, the keeners in your life become irrelevant. Your response to them, if you choose to respond at all, automatically elevates the conversation from talking about people to expressing ideas. I think you will find quickly that once you move to ideas, your keeners will grow quiet. You will also prevent yourself from becoming one of the irrelevant designers who obesess about aesthetics.