Architects are Not Lawyers......so don't trust anything you read here. If Architects were Lawyers they would be practicing Law not Architecture. Associate AIA members are not Architects it is those aspiring to be Architects. So take what they say as a grain of salt.
Dec 31, 13 4:18 pm ·
·
Geezertect,
they are similar but have two subtle differences. Collusion occurs when an agreement is made. Conspiracy to collude occurs when there is an attempt to collude but no agreements are established but that is legal hair splitting but in either case... Would be a violation of law.
There is a legal exception when it comes to public advertisement of prices like a store with a store catalog. What I said is when there is direct communication (eg. One on one, direct interpersonal dialog vs. talking out loud to a crowd and overhearing it) and SOME forms of indirect communication with competitors/potential competitors.
There are strict rules about how competitors and potential competitors are allowed to communicate with each other. There are exceptions such as employees while they are employees. There are exceptions when it comes to publically publishing to customers/clients prices. It isn't that the info can't be found just like the old AIA price table for architectural services. The issue arises when a competitor or potential competitor has unlawful influence on the pricing set by another competitor / potential competitor. It comes down to having too much direct influence on pricing that impedes fair, open and independent pricing of competitors/potential competitors. It is a legally enforced "ethics" based law for fair free market competition. The law is not for making you rich but giving customers and clients best pricing value established by fair open free market competition.
The antitrust laws doesn't care about making a business man rich and the laws are for equal and open competition free of monopolies and unlawful price fixing.
Dec 31, 13 4:28 pm ·
·
Snooker... I am a building designer so I am a competitor with architects on some projects.
In additions most licensed architects are not real Architects because they don't build what they design. You know what architect is derived from? Arkhitekton which means "Chief Builder". Do you build buildings?
The contemporary definition of architect in architectural licensing law in a contemporary fabrication when the laws were enacted without public ballot vote of citizens in nearly if not all of the states. That is another issue.
Miles, I have personally read the actual antitrust laws of the U.S. DOJ and also their 'administrative rules" CFRs. Have you?
Unlike the "crackerjack" legal and professional ethics courses they teach you in architecture school, I spent a lot more hours of my time to know and understand the in and outs of every law that would have implications on me and my business. I have studied these laws so I can keep a step ahead of the pack of wolves called the lawyers.
Lets move on. I originally posted what I said as a precautionary statement not teach the forum the antitrust laws.
thank you for your comments. They seem to be the comments most aligned with my original questions about design fees in this forum thread. I have estimated 20 hours for schematic design and 20 hours for design development at an hourly rate.
I am licensed with experience but, this will be my first independent foray where I will try to make a legitimate profit that can sustain future independent eandevors. So, I am trying to determine a fee model that can accommodate future work and sustain a fledgling (and hopefully soon to be profitable ) business.
Good luck. I'm not saying you should do what I did, because it was likely risky, but: I practiced in the residential market for 5 years without E&O insurance. I did have regular business liability insurance through my homeowner/car insurance provider, it cost a couple hundred a year. I finally got the E&O when I took on a public project that required it, and it cost about two grand a year. I also got it through my regular insurance agent.
Guess what my news years resolution is... not to be so negative when talking about architecture. Although you know how resolutions are.
Anywho, a happy new year's to you! And don't call it 'hardi', that is too product specific. It must be labeled 'cementitious hard board siding'. Okay, I really don't give a damn what you call it, I am really not all anal retentive like most architects, perhaps it is since I'm not an architect.
I actually love architecture so much I am going to start designing my single family home for a property I own in Perry Park of Larksur, CO. Those redrock outcroppings are sooo beautiful...ehh, see the new attitude!
^ Great suggestion... I've listened to a few -- they are outstanding.
Jan 1, 14 11:59 am ·
·
Ok, so here is summary of the price discussion so far:
curkm thinks one bitcoin is too much...
handsum, it would seem 1 bitcoin might actually be too high? those things are apparently worth a lot. i would say 0.156 bitcoins/hr would be good.
...and richbaltkins risks persectution for braking antiturst laws by pointing out that it would equate to about 700 united states dollars
It doesn't matter if you use Bitcoin or other e-currencies if they translate to real monetary value via an exchange rate. The current conversion rates for it in USD is something on the order of $760-$765 for a single Bitcoin. I'm not going to say if it is too much or too little. I'm reserving any comment. All I say is you decide for yourself.
Now lets all hope that i'm not an agent provactor planted here to entrp architects in price discussions violating anitttrust laws, because it not like architent is world of warcraft
the way i read it, is that richard follows his law and i follow my law. even if someone includes a title like assoc. aia behind there name as an attempt to lend credibility, i'm not going to believe everything they say. especially if what they say can contribute to my profession's race to the bottom, which is a bad thing.
i'm afraid of losing my ability to make a better life for myself through hard work. i am not afraid of phony laws or government or richard balkins. i'm not going to make decisions based on fear. if richard balkins wants to be afraid of big brother suing him for talking about charge-out rates, that's his prerogative, but i don't think others should follow his example. it's not becoming.
where i looked, 1 bitcoin is worth about $770. if you charge $770 per hour as an architect, i think you'll price yourself out of business. i figured about $120-125 might be reasonable. of course that depends on a lot of factors specific to your situations, but sole proprietor, not a big staff, residential remodel, not too much experience post-licensure, it sort of feels about right to me. i don't have the breadth of experience others here might have though, and i've never touched a residential project. if you were a principal of a mid-size firm working on commercial, i would guess that could be doubled and then some. of course if other people in your area are offering similar services for $75, it will be hard to compete.
We could talk fee structures all day long and never reach any agreement on what to charge a client for a specific job. So, if the OP asks the inmates of Archinect what to charge for a remodel of a rowhouse he could receive a different answer from each respondent. I bill several bitcoins per hour, whereas, another poster may charge a single bitcoin. So, there is no collusion between the contributors to the conversation. Of course, the client will try to drive down costs because that is what clients do. If you don't want to pay my fee than move along, or maybe, I will give you a better rate because you have a hot wife who will be the one who is always at the office choosing paint colors. It's Capitalism, baby.
Design Fee Question
Dude,
Architects are Not Lawyers......so don't trust anything you read here. If Architects were Lawyers they would be practicing Law not Architecture. Associate AIA members are not Architects it is those aspiring to be Architects. So take what they say as a grain of salt.
Geezertect,
they are similar but have two subtle differences. Collusion occurs when an agreement is made. Conspiracy to collude occurs when there is an attempt to collude but no agreements are established but that is legal hair splitting but in either case... Would be a violation of law.
There is a legal exception when it comes to public advertisement of prices like a store with a store catalog. What I said is when there is direct communication (eg. One on one, direct interpersonal dialog vs. talking out loud to a crowd and overhearing it) and SOME forms of indirect communication with competitors/potential competitors.
There are strict rules about how competitors and potential competitors are allowed to communicate with each other. There are exceptions such as employees while they are employees. There are exceptions when it comes to publically publishing to customers/clients prices. It isn't that the info can't be found just like the old AIA price table for architectural services. The issue arises when a competitor or potential competitor has unlawful influence on the pricing set by another competitor / potential competitor. It comes down to having too much direct influence on pricing that impedes fair, open and independent pricing of competitors/potential competitors. It is a legally enforced "ethics" based law for fair free market competition. The law is not for making you rich but giving customers and clients best pricing value established by fair open free market competition.
The antitrust laws doesn't care about making a business man rich and the laws are for equal and open competition free of monopolies and unlawful price fixing.
Snooker... I am a building designer so I am a competitor with architects on some projects.
In additions most licensed architects are not real Architects because they don't build what they design. You know what architect is derived from? Arkhitekton which means "Chief Builder". Do you build buildings?
The contemporary definition of architect in architectural licensing law in a contemporary fabrication when the laws were enacted without public ballot vote of citizens in nearly if not all of the states. That is another issue.
Even suri wasn't such a pompous ass.
Miles, I have personally read the actual antitrust laws of the U.S. DOJ and also their 'administrative rules" CFRs. Have you?
Unlike the "crackerjack" legal and professional ethics courses they teach you in architecture school, I spent a lot more hours of my time to know and understand the in and outs of every law that would have implications on me and my business. I have studied these laws so I can keep a step ahead of the pack of wolves called the lawyers.
Lets move on. I originally posted what I said as a precautionary statement not teach the forum the antitrust laws.
Donna Sink,
thank you for your comments. They seem to be the comments most aligned with my original questions about design fees in this forum thread. I have estimated 20 hours for schematic design and 20 hours for design development at an hourly rate.
I am licensed with experience but, this will be my first independent foray where I will try to make a legitimate profit that can sustain future independent eandevors. So, I am trying to determine a fee model that can accommodate future work and sustain a fledgling (and hopefully soon to be profitable ) business.
Thanks
Guess what? Not insulting you this time. I was cracking up at your first few posts. Good job.
Now I'm back to my EIFS details and Hardi-banding.
Hi gruen,
Guess what my news years resolution is... not to be so negative when talking about architecture. Although you know how resolutions are.
Anywho, a happy new year's to you! And don't call it 'hardi', that is too product specific. It must be labeled 'cementitious hard board siding'. Okay, I really don't give a damn what you call it, I am really not all anal retentive like most architects, perhaps it is since I'm not an architect.
I actually love architecture so much I am going to start designing my single family home for a property I own in Perry Park of Larksur, CO. Those redrock outcroppings are sooo beautiful...ehh, see the new attitude!
hey, DT, now that's what I'm talking about.
i would recommend that you listen to mark freelander's professional practice lectures. he is a construction attorney in chicago and his lectures are full of valuable information of fee structuring, contracts, liability, etc. http://www.schiffhardin.com/design-build/lecture-notes/architecture-544---spring-2011
^ Great suggestion... I've listened to a few -- they are outstanding.
Ok, so here is summary of the price discussion so far:
curkm thinks one bitcoin is too much...
handsum, it would seem 1 bitcoin might actually be too high? those things are apparently worth a lot. i would say 0.156 bitcoins/hr would be good.
...and richbaltkins risks persectution for braking antiturst laws by pointing out that it would equate to about 700 united states dollars
It doesn't matter if you use Bitcoin or other e-currencies if they translate to real monetary value via an exchange rate. The current conversion rates for it in USD is something on the order of $760-$765 for a single Bitcoin. I'm not going to say if it is too much or too little. I'm reserving any comment. All I say is you decide for yourself.
Now lets all hope that i'm not an agent provactor planted here to entrp architects in price discussions violating anitttrust laws, because it not like architent is world of warcraft
or is it???
I get paid in Bitcoin for posting here.
the way i read it, is that richard follows his law and i follow my law. even if someone includes a title like assoc. aia behind there name as an attempt to lend credibility, i'm not going to believe everything they say. especially if what they say can contribute to my profession's race to the bottom, which is a bad thing.
i'm afraid of losing my ability to make a better life for myself through hard work. i am not afraid of phony laws or government or richard balkins. i'm not going to make decisions based on fear. if richard balkins wants to be afraid of big brother suing him for talking about charge-out rates, that's his prerogative, but i don't think others should follow his example. it's not becoming.
where i looked, 1 bitcoin is worth about $770. if you charge $770 per hour as an architect, i think you'll price yourself out of business. i figured about $120-125 might be reasonable. of course that depends on a lot of factors specific to your situations, but sole proprietor, not a big staff, residential remodel, not too much experience post-licensure, it sort of feels about right to me. i don't have the breadth of experience others here might have though, and i've never touched a residential project. if you were a principal of a mid-size firm working on commercial, i would guess that could be doubled and then some. of course if other people in your area are offering similar services for $75, it will be hard to compete.
i'm afraid of losing my ability to make a better life for myself through hard work.
Welcome to 2014, everyone in the US! This is our current state of being!
I'm terrified of it too, curt.
We could talk fee structures all day long and never reach any agreement on what to charge a client for a specific job. So, if the OP asks the inmates of Archinect what to charge for a remodel of a rowhouse he could receive a different answer from each respondent. I bill several bitcoins per hour, whereas, another poster may charge a single bitcoin. So, there is no collusion between the contributors to the conversation. Of course, the client will try to drive down costs because that is what clients do. If you don't want to pay my fee than move along, or maybe, I will give you a better rate because you have a hot wife who will be the one who is always at the office choosing paint colors. It's Capitalism, baby.
dogecoin, son.
dogecoin.
COINYE
Pronounced like Kanye?
oh shit, somebodyj's trying really hared to make my head explode this morning.
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