The new Yankee's stadium has Chicago in an uproar. it seems the 2nd City-itis is rearing it's head again. People are starting to look around and say why cant we have nice things too? Theres a strong argument going on at the suntimes and Trib online right now about tearing down wrigley vs. saving it. HOK did a neat west side expansion proposal that would bring retail and Bar / Restaurant space to the park while preserving it's interior. The new Yankee stadium has that awesome classically inspired arcade but is it just novel because its new? It still has that awkward outfield home run line all the new parks seem to have - a planning error?
But really, is the park worth saving? Would anyone actually go to Lakeview to watch the perpetual losers in a new stadium? Can a stadium transcend it's purpose?
why because zambrano likes a luxurious locker room? the price of those new yankee and met tickets are recockulous. how will the frat boys and sorority girls be able to afford the price of admission??? new stadiums are a money suck on their communities and corporate america can't spend the ducats like they used to for sponsorship, naming rights, corporate suites etc. the new basketball and football stadiums in indy are running a 50 million dollar deficit and the old stadium which was torn down still isn't paid for. you of all people ep should be having a tea party at the mere suggestion of something so irresponsible!
as an aside. who are these people predicting the cubs to win it all??? with the exception of soriano they have a platoon outfield. d. lee will never hit the way he used to. the middle infield is okay. the pitching is good. but please.
personally, i think tearing down wrigley would verge on the dumbest move in the history of sports. yankee field had an aura because of what had occured there, but the yankees are not the yankees because they played in a classic stadium... as a matter of fact, yankee stadium was a terrible park, cavernous and characterless in my view. its importance was a consequence of the actions of the teams that played there.
wrigley is a completely different type of historical field. it is known more for its look and feel than they are for the teams achievements within them. The cubs have been terrible for the majority of their existence, and i maintain that the single biggest reason the cubs have had so much success popularity wise (despite their propensity for losing) is due almost 100% to the stadium and surrounding neighborhood. Wrigley (and perhaps fenway) is about the experience of seeing wrigle... yankee stadium was about the experience of seeing the yankees. They are completely different motivators, and so completely different situations IMO.
I actually don't really like the new Yankee's stadium -- with the caveat of not having seen it in person yet, only going from pictures. But in pictures it certainly seems kind of dull to me. Makes you wonder why they bothered to go through the effort of razing the old one and spending all that money to build something new and dull. See Pirates stadium for a great example on how to make something new that's actually novel, inspiring to a city, inspiring to a team and much, much better than what was there previously.
Isn't the point of a stadium -- in fact, isn't the point of a sports team -- to unite and excite the people? Right now, the storied, albeit decaying, seats of Wrigley Field seem to be doing that just fine. The experience is not cushy or great but if you want cushy luxury you can watch the game on your flat screen at home.
**note: I am not a baseball fan so I am really just making random comments here. Just speaking from my point of view as a football fan I guess. Don't know if any of this is really applicable, just trying to spark debate out of curiousity.
Evilp, i'm not a huge fan of baseball, but what happened in the Bronx was a massive crime. The old stadiums may not be the best places to catch a game but nothing will replace all the layers of history that that many great players and games have contributed to the space. How awesome is it to be able to take your son or daughter to the same field greats like Ruth used to play on and watch a game? I don't think all stadiums are worth saving but some definitely are, and Yankee stadium was arguably at the top of that list. I don't understand why we can't simply renovate these old stadiums rather than tearing them down and building new ones but the almighty bottom line is king in this country.
As far as a new cubs stadium, I imagine there are alot of long time cubbies fans who would take issue with that but if the collective will wants a new stadium i don't see huge issue with it. I still think a renovation job would be better than an all new stadium.
Good point lletdownl, and great comparison with Fenway -- fenway is DEFINITELY all about the crappy but wholly urban and squished and populous and crowded and raucous and ridiculous experience. But also about the crazy religious fervor of the fans of course... I wonder if the feeling has changed over there since the Sox finally started winning?
Im not advocating either way Vado, this isnt about tea parties yet - I happen to like Wrigley. But stadiums should be paid for by the teams in my opinion. Or Obama.
Funding aside, if a team like the Cubs decided to move to an empty lot on the westside and build there, what would you do with it? The neighborhood is essentially the cubs.
Having spent the last hour looking at photos of new yankee stadium I find the new citi field to be a lot more interesting.
I think rondo's comment above sums it all up. Plus, the era of the swankiest corporate palaces might end with the two new york ballparks, the new cowboys stadium and the under construction new jersey meadowlands football stadium. Let's see what the economy does over the next several years. The day's of corporate naming rights, etc. maybe over.
its old...instead of tar down, i think maybe build on top of it. 1, fill with dirt and 2, then build.
or maybemove the team to suburbs (chicago sucks anyhow) and then build a cool dome stadium in blatant rip-off of awe some jays (go jays!!!!bcanada rocks...except maple leafs who= major wtf!?!)...maybe even in an outer suburb like gary, indiana or bnton harbor, michigan.
Gary has the Railcats!. You can ride the South Shore down to the game and they'll let ya off right at the field. Their home opener is against the Joliet Jackhammers!
I think the comparison of Wrigley to Fenway is a good one. I don't think you can tear it down, move it, etc. You have to gut and renovate it. That is what Fenway did, and the results are amazing. Fenway is pretty clean, and has great amenities. Wrigley's concourse is in need of massive gutting. (It will probably be more difficult as there is a lot less space to work with.)
And I'm sorry, but Yankee stadium was a hole. It was just as badly beat up as Wrigley with none of the charm. The pathetic excuse for a monument park, the dinged faded metal, the brutality of the geometry makes for a very unenjoyable experience. Wrigley & Fenway will always offer something to a person in their seat. Wrigley just needs to make itself less of a urinal. (I've never been to Shea, sorry.)
(Vado, the Railcats stadium looks sweet! Everytime I drive by, I think about goin' to a game.)
And the reason the Yankee fans are crying in their beers (or not in the bleachers), over the history is cause they have a ridiculous intro video where everyone talks about how great it is to be a Yankee fan.
and sometimes scars can be a good thing... more indelible than most things... as architects, sometimes we put too much faith in bricks and mortar...
Postal, all the sober assesments of Yankee Stadium have all told me the same thing: the place was a dump, but i still don't know. I mean its so easy to hate the yankees (I've been a Braves fan most of my life) but there was still alot of history on that field. It maybe alright, last i heard they were planning on keeping the old diamond from yankee stadium in a new park so us mortals can play ball on the same field many of the greats have but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The new Yankee stadium has less seats than its predecessor and to my knowledge, was built almost entirely so Steinbrener could sell sky boxes but hey that's what the new New York is all about...
The braves are a pain in the ass, always so much promise but they never seem to be able to take it all the way. I can see how easy it is to hate them seeing how they're postseason staples, at least they were when i was still paying attention to them.
i say tear the whole damn thing down. somehow, i can't help but think it is the epicenter of all the so-called "irish pubs" in chicago. these "pubs" are irish in name only, and exist only to reinforce the phantasmagorical and somewhat homoerotic image of false-manliness that former frat boys have about themselves. the key formula for propagating this is as follows:
an o' in the name
walnut stained wood paneling
guiness on tap
these things help to make self-hating, homosexual chicago males feel more straight; they are further reinforced when hit on by the desperate cougars and lincoln park trixies who frequent these establishments.
i think i might expand on this in my defunct blog, or maybe start a thread about it. this has been bothering me for a really, really long time and i could easily write a book about it.
le bossman, I always like to point out to people who claim Irish heritage that ~4 million Irish people live in Ireland and that ~40 million Irish people live in the US. If Ireland is so great, how come no one lives in it?
Similarly, most people who claim to be Italian left Italy due to Mazzini's and Garibaldi's push to unify Italy. How can you claim to be a nationality that only existed after your family left the country? These people are not Italian in slightest.
bossman, I totally agree about the irish pub bullshit. wonderk will hate me forever for saying this, but my least favorite day of the year is saint patty's in chicago. I've become a little too belligerent about it I think... when people ask "why aren't you wearing green?!!" I shout "because I'm a REAL irishman you fucking pansy!"
ok, not really, but in my dreams, yes. I HATE st. patty's day, and you couldn't drag me into an "irish" bar if you paid me free rounds for life. it's like the people who claim irish ancestry and march in the parades and stuff and have not one single tie to ireland, no kin there, no nothing.
I guess it probably wouldn't annoy me if these annual idiot poseurs didn't pass out in my apartment vestibule, piss on the outside of my building, and puke on the sidewalk out front. And I live nowhere *near* any irish anything.
I have relatives in Castle Bar, am I then allowed to then puke where I want? I hope they make that law, licensed to puke
Never thought of Wrigley as being the Irish Pub epicenter but your right. Its like the dense nucleus. My favorite is when a group of people will be like Lets go to Irish Oak and someone will be like I dont like that place and then propose an exact replica of the place they dont like. Oh well, at least the tax receipts are good for the city.
And c'mon, we all like to make fun of wrigleyville but you have to admit, it can be pretty fun. Its kind of like perpetual tailgate party. And theres some cool places mixed in there to.
If the stadium was razed and replaced on the site the neighborhood would survive. But if it moved away - I shutter to think what would happen. It would probably be like Poltergeist when the house implodes on itself. The whole area would just suck into a vortex of gloom and cease to exist.
you can have the license if you want it, evilp! but if you're a real irishman you don't puke in the street on st patty's day in the middle of a bunch of frat boys ;-)
"I think the comparison of Wrigley to Fenway is a good one. I don't think you can tear it down, move it, etc. You have to gut and renovate it. That is what Fenway did, and the results are amazing. "
And that's what Yankee Stadium sorta did in the 1970s, and the results were appalling--or at least, enough of an alibi to ultimately dispose of it all.
Of course, it was the 70s. Even the built-anew ballparks of the day were ultimately candidates for implosion.
I wouldn't call Fenway a gut and renovate job. It has been more of a surgical renovation. They added the Monster Seats, Right Field Roof Deck, gutted to 600 Club for skyboxes, gutted the laundry building for the Big Concourse, etc.
They added seats and amenities where they could...
as a baseball-fan architect (full disclosure: im a lifelong orioles fan, the perfect example of how having a critically acclaimed beautiful stadium does not really help the team....but having a lousy owner sure can hurt it....) married to a die-hard cubs fan, and now having been to wrigley a bunch of times....it has real charm and character, something many many sports arenas (inside and out) lack. and, the fans LOVE IT. it definitely needs some renovation, but that can be done without taking away from teh charm of the place, and without moving it from its current neighborhood. part of the greatness of wrigley is that it is in a residential neighborhood that positively THRIVES off of hte stadium. not to mention the whole tradition of watching from the surrounding rooftops - urbanistically, it really works.
and, after what chicago did to soldiers' field....with the greco-roman stuff anachronistically rising above the stands.....i would be afraid to allow chicago reimagine its most storied and beloved ballpark!
Apr 27, 09 5:53 pm ·
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Wrigley Field - Tear it down or Leave it?
The new Yankee's stadium has Chicago in an uproar. it seems the 2nd City-itis is rearing it's head again. People are starting to look around and say why cant we have nice things too? Theres a strong argument going on at the suntimes and Trib online right now about tearing down wrigley vs. saving it. HOK did a neat west side expansion proposal that would bring retail and Bar / Restaurant space to the park while preserving it's interior. The new Yankee stadium has that awesome classically inspired arcade but is it just novel because its new? It still has that awkward outfield home run line all the new parks seem to have - a planning error?
But really, is the park worth saving? Would anyone actually go to Lakeview to watch the perpetual losers in a new stadium? Can a stadium transcend it's purpose?
why because zambrano likes a luxurious locker room? the price of those new yankee and met tickets are recockulous. how will the frat boys and sorority girls be able to afford the price of admission??? new stadiums are a money suck on their communities and corporate america can't spend the ducats like they used to for sponsorship, naming rights, corporate suites etc. the new basketball and football stadiums in indy are running a 50 million dollar deficit and the old stadium which was torn down still isn't paid for. you of all people ep should be having a tea party at the mere suggestion of something so irresponsible!
as an aside. who are these people predicting the cubs to win it all??? with the exception of soriano they have a platoon outfield. d. lee will never hit the way he used to. the middle infield is okay. the pitching is good. but please.
personally, i think tearing down wrigley would verge on the dumbest move in the history of sports. yankee field had an aura because of what had occured there, but the yankees are not the yankees because they played in a classic stadium... as a matter of fact, yankee stadium was a terrible park, cavernous and characterless in my view. its importance was a consequence of the actions of the teams that played there.
wrigley is a completely different type of historical field. it is known more for its look and feel than they are for the teams achievements within them. The cubs have been terrible for the majority of their existence, and i maintain that the single biggest reason the cubs have had so much success popularity wise (despite their propensity for losing) is due almost 100% to the stadium and surrounding neighborhood. Wrigley (and perhaps fenway) is about the experience of seeing wrigle... yankee stadium was about the experience of seeing the yankees. They are completely different motivators, and so completely different situations IMO.
I actually don't really like the new Yankee's stadium -- with the caveat of not having seen it in person yet, only going from pictures. But in pictures it certainly seems kind of dull to me. Makes you wonder why they bothered to go through the effort of razing the old one and spending all that money to build something new and dull. See Pirates stadium for a great example on how to make something new that's actually novel, inspiring to a city, inspiring to a team and much, much better than what was there previously.
Isn't the point of a stadium -- in fact, isn't the point of a sports team -- to unite and excite the people? Right now, the storied, albeit decaying, seats of Wrigley Field seem to be doing that just fine. The experience is not cushy or great but if you want cushy luxury you can watch the game on your flat screen at home.
**note: I am not a baseball fan so I am really just making random comments here. Just speaking from my point of view as a football fan I guess. Don't know if any of this is really applicable, just trying to spark debate out of curiousity.
Evilp, i'm not a huge fan of baseball, but what happened in the Bronx was a massive crime. The old stadiums may not be the best places to catch a game but nothing will replace all the layers of history that that many great players and games have contributed to the space. How awesome is it to be able to take your son or daughter to the same field greats like Ruth used to play on and watch a game? I don't think all stadiums are worth saving but some definitely are, and Yankee stadium was arguably at the top of that list. I don't understand why we can't simply renovate these old stadiums rather than tearing them down and building new ones but the almighty bottom line is king in this country.
As far as a new cubs stadium, I imagine there are alot of long time cubbies fans who would take issue with that but if the collective will wants a new stadium i don't see huge issue with it. I still think a renovation job would be better than an all new stadium.
Good point lletdownl, and great comparison with Fenway -- fenway is DEFINITELY all about the crappy but wholly urban and squished and populous and crowded and raucous and ridiculous experience. But also about the crazy religious fervor of the fans of course... I wonder if the feeling has changed over there since the Sox finally started winning?
Im not advocating either way Vado, this isnt about tea parties yet - I happen to like Wrigley. But stadiums should be paid for by the teams in my opinion. Or Obama.
Funding aside, if a team like the Cubs decided to move to an empty lot on the westside and build there, what would you do with it? The neighborhood is essentially the cubs.
Having spent the last hour looking at photos of new yankee stadium I find the new citi field to be a lot more interesting.
I think Wrigley could easily be renovated.
I think the consensus re old Yankee Stadium is if it hadn't been reno'd in the 1970s, it would've earned more of a Wrigley/Fenway-style "keep" status.
Tearing down Wrigley would be a huge loss to Bears fans. They, after all, are the only Chicago team that actually won championships there.
I think rondo's comment above sums it all up. Plus, the era of the swankiest corporate palaces might end with the two new york ballparks, the new cowboys stadium and the under construction new jersey meadowlands football stadium. Let's see what the economy does over the next several years. The day's of corporate naming rights, etc. maybe over.
in all seriousness Citifield may as well be FedField
its old...instead of tar down, i think maybe build on top of it. 1, fill with dirt and 2, then build.
or maybemove the team to suburbs (chicago sucks anyhow) and then build a cool dome stadium in blatant rip-off of awe some jays (go jays!!!!bcanada rocks...except maple leafs who= major wtf!?!)...maybe even in an outer suburb like gary, indiana or bnton harbor, michigan.
word....booooyyyy!
Gary has the Railcats!. You can ride the South Shore down to the game and they'll let ya off right at the field. Their home opener is against the Joliet Jackhammers!
Leave it!
We don't want another crime against humanity:
If the owners want a new stadium I'm all for letting them do whatever they want with their own money. The Chicago tax payer cannot afford any more.
As for the aesthetics of Wrigley, I'm all for a facelift on the exterior Addison/Clark corner. Inside is just fine IMO.
I think the comparison of Wrigley to Fenway is a good one. I don't think you can tear it down, move it, etc. You have to gut and renovate it. That is what Fenway did, and the results are amazing. Fenway is pretty clean, and has great amenities. Wrigley's concourse is in need of massive gutting. (It will probably be more difficult as there is a lot less space to work with.)
And I'm sorry, but Yankee stadium was a hole. It was just as badly beat up as Wrigley with none of the charm. The pathetic excuse for a monument park, the dinged faded metal, the brutality of the geometry makes for a very unenjoyable experience. Wrigley & Fenway will always offer something to a person in their seat. Wrigley just needs to make itself less of a urinal. (I've never been to Shea, sorry.)
(Vado, the Railcats stadium looks sweet! Everytime I drive by, I think about goin' to a game.)
And the reason the Yankee fans are crying in their beers (or not in the bleachers), over the history is cause they have a ridiculous intro video where everyone talks about how great it is to be a Yankee fan.
and sometimes scars can be a good thing... more indelible than most things... as architects, sometimes we put too much faith in bricks and mortar...
Postal, all the sober assesments of Yankee Stadium have all told me the same thing: the place was a dump, but i still don't know. I mean its so easy to hate the yankees (I've been a Braves fan most of my life) but there was still alot of history on that field. It maybe alright, last i heard they were planning on keeping the old diamond from yankee stadium in a new park so us mortals can play ball on the same field many of the greats have but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The new Yankee stadium has less seats than its predecessor and to my knowledge, was built almost entirely so Steinbrener could sell sky boxes but hey that's what the new New York is all about...
it's pretty easy to hate the Braves too!
The braves are a pain in the ass, always so much promise but they never seem to be able to take it all the way. I can see how easy it is to hate them seeing how they're postseason staples, at least they were when i was still paying attention to them.
i say tear the whole damn thing down. somehow, i can't help but think it is the epicenter of all the so-called "irish pubs" in chicago. these "pubs" are irish in name only, and exist only to reinforce the phantasmagorical and somewhat homoerotic image of false-manliness that former frat boys have about themselves. the key formula for propagating this is as follows:
an o' in the name
walnut stained wood paneling
guiness on tap
these things help to make self-hating, homosexual chicago males feel more straight; they are further reinforced when hit on by the desperate cougars and lincoln park trixies who frequent these establishments.
LOL. interesting analysis le boss.
yeah especially since that area was mostly full of krauts back in the day.
i think i might expand on this in my defunct blog, or maybe start a thread about it. this has been bothering me for a really, really long time and i could easily write a book about it.
le bossman, I always like to point out to people who claim Irish heritage that ~4 million Irish people live in Ireland and that ~40 million Irish people live in the US. If Ireland is so great, how come no one lives in it?
Similarly, most people who claim to be Italian left Italy due to Mazzini's and Garibaldi's push to unify Italy. How can you claim to be a nationality that only existed after your family left the country? These people are not Italian in slightest.
rockandhill, we have finally found something to agree on. respekt.
Boss are you saying that Irish culture is O'verrated?
O'Snap!
ha ha ha, vado
bossman, I totally agree about the irish pub bullshit. wonderk will hate me forever for saying this, but my least favorite day of the year is saint patty's in chicago. I've become a little too belligerent about it I think... when people ask "why aren't you wearing green?!!" I shout "because I'm a REAL irishman you fucking pansy!"
ok, not really, but in my dreams, yes. I HATE st. patty's day, and you couldn't drag me into an "irish" bar if you paid me free rounds for life. it's like the people who claim irish ancestry and march in the parades and stuff and have not one single tie to ireland, no kin there, no nothing.
I guess it probably wouldn't annoy me if these annual idiot poseurs didn't pass out in my apartment vestibule, piss on the outside of my building, and puke on the sidewalk out front. And I live nowhere *near* any irish anything.
I have relatives in Castle Bar, am I then allowed to then puke where I want? I hope they make that law, licensed to puke
Never thought of Wrigley as being the Irish Pub epicenter but your right. Its like the dense nucleus. My favorite is when a group of people will be like Lets go to Irish Oak and someone will be like I dont like that place and then propose an exact replica of the place they dont like. Oh well, at least the tax receipts are good for the city.
And c'mon, we all like to make fun of wrigleyville but you have to admit, it can be pretty fun. Its kind of like perpetual tailgate party. And theres some cool places mixed in there to.
If the stadium was razed and replaced on the site the neighborhood would survive. But if it moved away - I shutter to think what would happen. It would probably be like Poltergeist when the house implodes on itself. The whole area would just suck into a vortex of gloom and cease to exist.
you can have the license if you want it, evilp! but if you're a real irishman you don't puke in the street on st patty's day in the middle of a bunch of frat boys ;-)
I'm kidding. my rant was over the top on purpose.
your rant was awesome - This year St pattys day seemed to be extraordinarily insane. Is it me or did the entire city lose it's collective mind?
i saw a chick throwin up outside the rookery once. it wasn't st. anythings day. now there's a photo project barfing in front of famous buildings.
"I think the comparison of Wrigley to Fenway is a good one. I don't think you can tear it down, move it, etc. You have to gut and renovate it. That is what Fenway did, and the results are amazing. "
And that's what Yankee Stadium sorta did in the 1970s, and the results were appalling--or at least, enough of an alibi to ultimately dispose of it all.
Of course, it was the 70s. Even the built-anew ballparks of the day were ultimately candidates for implosion.
^speaking of which, Madison Square Garden is the most appaling sports venue i've ever experienced.
I wouldn't call Fenway a gut and renovate job. It has been more of a surgical renovation. They added the Monster Seats, Right Field Roof Deck, gutted to 600 Club for skyboxes, gutted the laundry building for the Big Concourse, etc.
They added seats and amenities where they could...
Cubs Win!
tear it down. it's a cess pool of loserdom.
oh my! i'm not sure why anyone would watch the game!
(sorry, guess the conversation took a new direction, but i saw this and thought i'd post)
as a baseball-fan architect (full disclosure: im a lifelong orioles fan, the perfect example of how having a critically acclaimed beautiful stadium does not really help the team....but having a lousy owner sure can hurt it....) married to a die-hard cubs fan, and now having been to wrigley a bunch of times....it has real charm and character, something many many sports arenas (inside and out) lack. and, the fans LOVE IT. it definitely needs some renovation, but that can be done without taking away from teh charm of the place, and without moving it from its current neighborhood. part of the greatness of wrigley is that it is in a residential neighborhood that positively THRIVES off of hte stadium. not to mention the whole tradition of watching from the surrounding rooftops - urbanistically, it really works.
and, after what chicago did to soldiers' field....with the greco-roman stuff anachronistically rising above the stands.....i would be afraid to allow chicago reimagine its most storied and beloved ballpark!
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