A reform movement by the architectural profession for change, accountability, integrity and service by NCARB for the ARE.
Commentary :
There have been multiple attempts by young and emerging professionals to create change through NCARB in reference to testing procedures and the forced transition in testing structure. All of these previous efforts have fallen on deaf ears and have resulted in nothing other than stonewalling.
The published Core Values that the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards believes in – Integrity, Service, and Accountability seem incredibly hollow when one considers the information above.
Many of believe that the very nature of this process and the lack of true discourse and Accountability on NCARB’s part are creating tragic gaps in our profession. Accountability would require that an organization provide thoughtful and accurate information to their constituents. Accountability would indicate that an organization would reconsider actions and changes in process that are arbitrary and punitive in their very nature.
The nature of Service in itself is to serve those that are represented by the organization. On every level the Service that NCARB provides is poor at best.
The results of these issues are that the core value of Integrity, of both NCARB and the architectural profession in general, are being questioned by generations of young and future architects.
Our beloved profession appears to be crumbling from the bottom up. This group of young and emerging professionals feels that they have no advocates, no voice and no power. They are actually frightened of NCARB because of the perceived control and lack of accountability that the organization has and are thus frozen from asking for any advocacy because of fears of retribution. It is difficult not to see that the mass abandonment of the profession by young people is directly linked to the issues outlined above.
This is not a new issue, but it is an issue that has yet to be fully recognized and addressed by the whole of our profession.
Is this strictly concerning the AREs or does it extend into the IDP process?? It seems to me that NCARB makes the majority of its income from future architects, but most of the privileges and benefits goes to those already licensed. It is like we are kids with negligent/abusive parents leaving us to fend for ourselves. This is an important movement that will definitely be a fight, but one I feel is worth it.
Our group currently has over 100 members as part of our FB group which is focused on both IDP issues and ARE issues plus all aspects of NCARB governance of our profession. This advocacy group is not limited to one issue.
The facebook group is a way to have any and all parties who are interested or affects by NCARB to have a place to communicate, discuss issues and plan for our advocacy efforts with NCARB.
There is really no other place for this to occur in an open forum.
first, it's the NATIONAL COUNCIL of ARCHITECTURAL REGISTRATION BOARDS. so just who do you think are there first constituents? yes, the administer tests, yes they record intern hours, and yes they are *supposed* to lesson barriers to reciprocity, but you seem to be tilting at the wrong windmill. you want change? go at the STATE Boards, contact your State Legislators, your Governor, your Congressional leaders, not NCARB. attacking NCARB is like contacting the Health Insurance Lobby and asking them to change the way health care works in this country; to them, it works just fine.
what does this mean?
The published Core Values that the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards believes in – Integrity, Service, and Accountability seem incredibly hollow when one considers the information above.??
what information? you provide none.
now, i've been a volunteer test taker and evaluator, so i have a bit more knowledge about the subject than you have, but i have to admit i have no clue what you are referencing. how might you conceive a seamless transition to a more relevant testing method? i don't remember hearing complaints back when there was this transition from paper to computer, is it the internet, is it Millennials finally realize their parents can't solve this problem by parachuting into DC? what?
Many of believe that the very nature of this process and the lack of true discourse and Accountability on NCARB’s part are creating tragic gaps in our profession. Accountability would require that an organization provide thoughtful and accurate information to their constituents. Accountability would indicate that an organization would reconsider actions and changes in process that are arbitrary and punitive in their very nature.
HUH? Wa?
accountability? for what? accurate? examples lad, examples. you can't charge the bastille if you don't tell the troops what their fighting for, who the enemy is, what is their strengths and what are their weaknesses.
what is arbitrary? the fee change? really? let me ask you something; in baseball a fair number of players have used performance enhancing drugs, about 100 or so failed the test, but how many players are in MLB? now, all of those players; the cheaters and the non cheaters are painted with the same brush. fair or unfair? they are all paying the penalty, they all have to be tested. fair or unfair? now i'll agree if you think that those that cheated perhaps should bear more of the burden, but the information got out and now all are privy to test questions. oh, in case you don't think they were punished, their names were published, they were forbidden to take exams for a period of time, previous scores were nullified and i think some were fined. is that punitive enough for you? so you have to pay more money, that means more incentive not to fail and pass the first go. in case you have not read the latest from NCARB;
The new rate of $210 per division will take effect on 1 October 2009. All exams scheduled on or after 1 October 2009 will be at the new rate. Prior to 1 October 2009, candidates can schedule future exam appointments through 31 December 2009 at the current rate of $170 per division.
Our beloved profession appears to be crumbling from the bottom up. This group of young and emerging professionals feels that they have no advocates, no voice and no power. They are actually frightened of NCARB because of the perceived control and lack of accountability that the organization has and are thus frozen from asking for any advocacy because of fears of retribution. It is difficult not to see that the mass abandonment of the profession by young people is directly linked to the issues outlined above.
if your criticism is to be directed at how NCARB works for you, then how can our profession be "crumbling from the bottom up?" using your words, isn't this a top down problem, as you state it? if there are any systemic problems with the "foundation" it's of our own doing. we take forever to complete IDP; i still have friends, very talented ones that are not licensed - it took me way too long. we fail to volunteer when NCARB calls for assistance in the tests. we fail to join the AIA and hold ourselves accountable to those entering the profession; we don't "require" firms to account for or provide the required IDP units. we undermine each other when we dumb down fees - to get the job. we are our own worst enemy. we are killing the profession, not NCARB. we fail to get involved, fail to care, so who cares when Interior Designers get more "license" to create architecture?
is NCARB without fault, hell no, but the problem is that you want to make them the enemy rather than engage in constructive dialog, and i guarantee you NCARB and the state boards will be here long after you get your license and forget about this thread, the facebook page and this matter altogether.
in the interest of full disclosure, and to shed light on my problems with NCARB|
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/06/08 8:07
Honestly, Fix, the below hardly seems vetted by attorney's, if it has then I am even more concerned.
Dear NCARB,
This petition is submitted to convey to you a collective frustration in dealing with NCARB's appalling standards of organization and customer service, and the consequent roadblock that this represents to our careers. More importantly, it is submitted to request an immediate response, action and improvement to an unacceptable situation.
It is ironic that the very organization entrusted with overseeing a critical part of the professional Architectural Licensure process and thereby safeguarding the standards of the profession, itself consistently falls short of even a basic level of professional practice.
Most architecture school graduates never complete IDP, hardly surprising considering the difficulty many experience in working with NCARB. Despite the organization's stated core values of "Integrity, Service and Accountability", for countless IDP and examination candidates, records are lost, transmittals are kept in limbo for months or never sent, timelines promised on their websites are not honored, and phone messages and emails are left unanswered.
In order to rectify the problem, NCARB needs to improve its customer service and organizational standards immediately. An outside consulting agency should be retained to examine their processes and provide recommendations for manageable solutions. Some solutions that would greatly assist the process are as follows:
1. To have informed and knowledgeable human representatives be available during office hours to answer (or obtain immediate answers for) specific record questions.
2. Establishment of realistic timelines for processing, and adherence to those.
3. To establish an online account system for 24-hour applicant access to record status, record submittal, and communications with NCARB.
We the undersigned trust that NCARB will seriously consider and expediently act upon this petition.
Thank you,
Licensure Candidates and Registered Architects Across America
The entire letter is badly worded, the second paragraph should be removed altogether, the first sentence of the third paragraph is grossly overstated - without nay evidence or basis in fact.
I'll say more later...
Bloopox
Total Entries: 3
Total Comments: 576
05/06/08 9:03
I'm a little concerned that you keep changing the petition, while collecting signatures. When I first looked at your petition and considered signing it, it was a completely different letter. If I'd signed then, I would have been signing a different document than you'd actually be sending with my name attached! I know you've been tweaking this thing, getting feedback and such and that you don't intend any dishonesty. But if you've changed the letter AT ALL since you collected any signatures then it is not appropriate to send it anywhere with those signatures still attached. You need to come up with a final draft and THEN collect your signatures. Otherwise you're misrepresenting those who signed earlier.
At this point you need to scrap your existing petition, come up with a final version, and start from scratch with collecting signatures.
A few other notes:
It isn't true that "most architecture school graduates never complete IDP." NCARB, the AIA, and the state boards have statistics on that - the most recent I've seen do show a good majority of grads eventually completing IDP and about half of grads getting licensed.
Stating something incorrect and unsubstantiated like that in your petition is not helpful in making a credible case.
As for your three solutions: all of those are supposedly in the works currently. NCARB just did some major staff turnover and redefining of responsibilities - as outlined in the "Direct Connections" that just came out. The timing of your petition isn't great, since NCARB can answer that they've just implemented all these changes and it's too early to see how they will work out.
Needlebeam
Total Entries: 1
Total Comments: 47
05/06/08 9:29
ipetitions lets you change the petition after you already have signatures? That's shady. In that case you should either start over or email each person who signed and tell them you changed it and get their permission to keep their signature.
marmkid
Total Entries: 23
Total Comments: 1037
05/06/08 9:38
you probably shouldnt be completely negative and all bashing of NCARB either
if you say that you understand that changes are being discussed to improve the system, and you thought these would also be helpful, you might get a better response that, hey your system sucks and you dont answer my emails
besides, as bloopox just said, they are in the process of making changes, so by not acknowledging that at all in your rant, you sound like you havent done any homework at all, and havent even attempted to speak with someone at NCARB
demanding immediate action also doesnt paint you in the best light. lets be honest, they arent the worst organization ever made, and they dont wrong people on purpose
the system needs some tweaking, approach it that way
saying the whole thing is messed up like you do, makes you sound uninformed about the whole process
Formerlyunknown
Total Entries: 1
Total Comments: 301
05/06/08 10:42
The "Direct Connections" NCARB newsletter that just came out outlines a total reorganizing of NCARB's customer service and record keeping functions into 6 or 7 different departments, new managers, new procedures. You say that they're not being specific enough in their goals and reforms, but the short list you provide seems to suggest the same things they say they're doing now - with no more specificity. The front page of NCARB's website now has a "start your council record online" tab and they have plans to add more online features.
My experiences with NCARB haven't been very good. I'm all for change. But I do actually think that NCARB has identified that need and is working on it.
In 2007 there were a series NCARB surveys that went out to interns, architects, recently-registered people, mentors, etc. Those identified a lot of specific shortcomings at NCARB and they do seem to be taking action to directly address those.
The best way to get specific action is to identify specific issues and make NCARB and your own state board aware of the issues - no matter how small. This means that if your certification application is delayed, or you have a computer glitch at a testing center, or your email to NCARB goes unanswered, or your IDP record is languishing in its fifth month of "final review" then you must write about the what, when, where, whys of that particular situation and send that letter to NCARB and to your state board within days of experiencing the problem.
If everybody does that then it will be a much better demonstration of the particular problems and also the volume and frequency of those problems.
garpike
Total Entries: 58
Total Comments: 3732
05/06/08 16:10
Wow, what's this wow crap?
If you did have a reason to petition, I strongly recommend having it written by a professional. Poorly constructed sentences, like the following, seem less like argument and more like whining.
Most architecture school graduates never complete IDP, hardly surprising considering the difficulty many experience in working with NCARB.
houseofmud
Total Entries: 27
Total Comments: 1479
05/06/08 19:16
I agree with Garpike - Fix NCARB is the problem. I think perhaps he/she should start a petition against the grammar and rhetoric of the petition.
Just Why
Total Entries: 19
Total Comments: 1326
05/06/08 19:57
I've been quiet on this subject until now. Like another poster stated on the original thread, I was quite "gruntled" by my NCARB experience. I was patient yet diligent throughout the process, and I certainly didn't wait until the end to file my paperwork. The staff members with which I interacted were always courteous, and I received positive results.
It seems like there has been a mad rush to IDP ever since the new version of the ARE was announced. I would expect the volume to die down after the deadline to register under the previous version has passed.
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/06/08 20:42
there are problems, many have had them, i have had them. we just need a fact based, less emotional, argument crafted. the above argument does not do it for me, and i won't sign until it does. oh, and i don't have time to craft one either.
marmkid
Total Entries: 23
Total Comments: 1037
05/07/08 5:44
there are definitely some problems, but many of those are from people with unrealistic expectations of the process
how many times is it that people complain about IDP and its because they have 5 years worth of hours they demand credit for, yet have never worried about until now
you need specific problems with NCARB, and to have it written in a thoughtful way, with potential solutions to each problem
saying their customer service is bad doesnt mean anything
who's to say you arent being a jerk to them and are just pissed when they cant help you
i'd help craft one if i thought there was a real reason for this letter, but really, i dont see the point
all it will be is a whiny complaint letter
Steven Ward
Total Entries: 55
Total Comments: 9174
05/07/08 5:53
just wait 'til fixncarb hits the a.r.e. whew!
i fought about this stupidity of the exam format, design, and content for a year or so, got nowhere, became complacent, and faded into the wallpaper. it's hard to keep up the anger once you're registered.
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/21/08 13:46
you want to hate on NCARB try this inane bit bull...
Dear Mr.
I have spoken to Mr. XXXXX and you do options available for transmittal:
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
my response -
X,
I have some questions regarding the three points below. Attached is the application and instructions for XXXXXX comity application. After speaking with X at the State Board office, she stated XXXXXXXX would accept a letter from NCARB confirming completion of IDP.
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
I don’t think I follow this point. The state board requires confirmation – for comity – that I have fulfilled NCARB’s IDP requirements, which as you can see from my record I have more than satisfied. It seems that after speaking with their comity coordinator a letter verifying completion of IDP would suffice.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
This point leaves me completely baffled. You seem to suggest that NCARB is ABLE to send my record, but not my XXXXXregistration. I don’t understand what Form 155 is, and I am unable to locate it on XXXXXX website. Your final sentence is quite confusing; your first sentence suggests that you CAN send my record, but your last sentence notes that “…NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.” Please help me understand this point.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
This last point seems to suggest that I can get proceed with getting NCARB certified, is that correct?
X, I am trying to understand this process, I don’t understand why this is so complicated. I have spoken with XXXXX regarding comity, and they have explained that over half their applicants are comity applicants. It seems from your points above that the only way to get “confirmation” or “verification” of my IDP is to pay $300.00, but then you also suggest that NCARB does not typically send “confirmation” once I became registered. Given that fact, then your points to me confirm that the ONLY way to get my comity application approved is to become NCARB certified, yet the state of XXXXXX does not require NCARB certification.
Regards,
her response back to me -
Dear Mr. X,
Once an architect becomes registered, NCARB does not send an IDP record to a state board. You will have to become certified through NCARB in order to proceed with reciprocity.
I will request a copy of your registration for you so NCARB can have a copy on record if you choose to become certified and there is no charge by the XXXXXX state board for a copy of your registration and your test scores. (You registration and test score form is called 155.)
Once an architect is registered and can qualify for certification, NCARB does not send an IDP record or any type of IDP update to a state board. You will have to be evaluated for NCARB certification and although the XXXXXXX state board does not require certification, NCARB does. I apologize that you have been given information that was misleading by the XXXXXX state board but I do want to help you start the certification process in order for you to get the reciprocity that you need with the state of Minnesota.
Sincerely,
i am in fraking Twilight Zone here, fraking rabbit hole type shit...
my state does not require NCARB certification to get reciprocity, but NCARB is telling me they don't do what my state and i am asking for, which means i need NCARB certification - EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REQUIRED?
you want an effective argument for abolishing NCARB, here it is....THEIR VISION
NCARB Vision
As the facilitator for the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public, the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards:
Requires a NAAB-accredited degree, successful completion of the Intern Development Program (IDP) and successful completion of the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Protects and enhances the validity of the Intern Develop Program (IDP) and the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Encourages all architects to become Certificate holders.
Advocates for the elimination of impediments to reciprocity.
Serves as the trusted international center of registration data and regulatory information.
Values diversity of opinion and representation.
Promotes recognition of the architect as the primary building professional qualified to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public, through the enhancement of the quality of the built environment and the richness of space and form.
you want to hate on NCARB try this inane bit bull...
Dear Mr.
I have spoken to Mr. XXXXX and you do options available for transmittal:
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
my response -
X,
I have some questions regarding the three points below. Attached is the application and instructions for XXXXXX comity application. After speaking with X at the State Board office, she stated XXXXXXXX would accept a letter from NCARB confirming completion of IDP.
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
I don’t think I follow this point. The state board requires confirmation – for comity – that I have fulfilled NCARB’s IDP requirements, which as you can see from my record I have more than satisfied. It seems that after speaking with their comity coordinator a letter verifying completion of IDP would suffice.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
This point leaves me completely baffled. You seem to suggest that NCARB is ABLE to send my record, but not my XXXXXregistration. I don’t understand what Form 155 is, and I am unable to locate it on XXXXXX website. Your final sentence is quite confusing; your first sentence suggests that you CAN send my record, but your last sentence notes that “…NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.” Please help me understand this point.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
This last point seems to suggest that I can get proceed with getting NCARB certified, is that correct?
X, I am trying to understand this process, I don’t understand why this is so complicated. I have spoken with XXXXX regarding comity, and they have explained that over half their applicants are comity applicants. It seems from your points above that the only way to get “confirmation” or “verification” of my IDP is to pay $300.00, but then you also suggest that NCARB does not typically send “confirmation” once I became registered. Given that fact, then your points to me confirm that the ONLY way to get my comity application approved is to become NCARB certified, yet the state of XXXXXX does not require NCARB certification.
Regards,
her response back to me -
Dear Mr. X,
Once an architect becomes registered, NCARB does not send an IDP record to a state board. You will have to become certified through NCARB in order to proceed with reciprocity.
I will request a copy of your registration for you so NCARB can have a copy on record if you choose to become certified and there is no charge by the XXXXXX state board for a copy of your registration and your test scores. (You registration and test score form is called 155.)
Once an architect is registered and can qualify for certification, NCARB does not send an IDP record or any type of IDP update to a state board. You will have to be evaluated for NCARB certification and although the XXXXXXX state board does not require certification, NCARB does. I apologize that you have been given information that was misleading by the XXXXXX state board but I do want to help you start the certification process in order for you to get the reciprocity that you need with the state of Minnesota.
Sincerely,
i am in fraking Twilight Zone here, fraking rabbit hole type shit...
my state does not require NCARB certification to get reciprocity, but NCARB is telling me they don't do what my state and i am asking for, which means i need NCARB certification - EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REQUIRED?
you want an effective argument for abolishing NCARB, here it is....THEIR VISION
NCARB Vision
As the facilitator for the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public, the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards:
Requires a NAAB-accredited degree, successful completion of the Intern Development Program (IDP) and successful completion of the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Protects and enhances the validity of the Intern Develop Program (IDP) and the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Encourages all architects to become Certificate holders.
Advocates for the elimination of impediments to reciprocity.
Serves as the trusted international center of registration data and regulatory information.
Values diversity of opinion and representation.
Promotes recognition of the architect as the primary building professional qualified to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public, through the enhancement of the quality of the built environment and the richness of space and form.
who are they kidding?
Aug 6, 09 10:42 am ·
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Facebook Group - aRCHITECTs for the reform of NCARB and the ARE - please join & invite your colleagues to join
aRCHITECTs for the reform of NCARB and the ARE
Organizations - Advocacy Organizations
Description:
A reform movement by the architectural profession for change, accountability, integrity and service by NCARB for the ARE.
Commentary :
There have been multiple attempts by young and emerging professionals to create change through NCARB in reference to testing procedures and the forced transition in testing structure. All of these previous efforts have fallen on deaf ears and have resulted in nothing other than stonewalling.
The published Core Values that the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards believes in – Integrity, Service, and Accountability seem incredibly hollow when one considers the information above.
Many of believe that the very nature of this process and the lack of true discourse and Accountability on NCARB’s part are creating tragic gaps in our profession. Accountability would require that an organization provide thoughtful and accurate information to their constituents. Accountability would indicate that an organization would reconsider actions and changes in process that are arbitrary and punitive in their very nature.
The nature of Service in itself is to serve those that are represented by the organization. On every level the Service that NCARB provides is poor at best.
The results of these issues are that the core value of Integrity, of both NCARB and the architectural profession in general, are being questioned by generations of young and future architects.
Our beloved profession appears to be crumbling from the bottom up. This group of young and emerging professionals feels that they have no advocates, no voice and no power. They are actually frightened of NCARB because of the perceived control and lack of accountability that the organization has and are thus frozen from asking for any advocacy because of fears of retribution. It is difficult not to see that the mass abandonment of the profession by young people is directly linked to the issues outlined above.
This is not a new issue, but it is an issue that has yet to be fully recognized and addressed by the whole of our profession.
Is this strictly concerning the AREs or does it extend into the IDP process?? It seems to me that NCARB makes the majority of its income from future architects, but most of the privileges and benefits goes to those already licensed. It is like we are kids with negligent/abusive parents leaving us to fend for ourselves. This is an important movement that will definitely be a fight, but one I feel is worth it.
What would the facebook group accomplish?
Our group currently has over 100 members as part of our FB group which is focused on both IDP issues and ARE issues plus all aspects of NCARB governance of our profession. This advocacy group is not limited to one issue.
The facebook group is a way to have any and all parties who are interested or affects by NCARB to have a place to communicate, discuss issues and plan for our advocacy efforts with NCARB.
There is really no other place for this to occur in an open forum.
doesn't change only happen for one of three reasons?
1) there's more money to be made than with the status quo
2) people die (fire codes, building codes, etc.)
3) a class action lawsuit
what direction will this facebook group head in?
there are so many flaws in the original post, it's hard to know where to begin, but in the morning i will try.
however, here's a teaser; it starts with the acronym NCARB...
first, it's the NATIONAL COUNCIL of ARCHITECTURAL REGISTRATION BOARDS. so just who do you think are there first constituents? yes, the administer tests, yes they record intern hours, and yes they are *supposed* to lesson barriers to reciprocity, but you seem to be tilting at the wrong windmill. you want change? go at the STATE Boards, contact your State Legislators, your Governor, your Congressional leaders, not NCARB. attacking NCARB is like contacting the Health Insurance Lobby and asking them to change the way health care works in this country; to them, it works just fine.
what does this mean?
The published Core Values that the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards believes in – Integrity, Service, and Accountability seem incredibly hollow when one considers the information above.??
what information? you provide none.
now, i've been a volunteer test taker and evaluator, so i have a bit more knowledge about the subject than you have, but i have to admit i have no clue what you are referencing. how might you conceive a seamless transition to a more relevant testing method? i don't remember hearing complaints back when there was this transition from paper to computer, is it the internet, is it Millennials finally realize their parents can't solve this problem by parachuting into DC? what?
Many of believe that the very nature of this process and the lack of true discourse and Accountability on NCARB’s part are creating tragic gaps in our profession. Accountability would require that an organization provide thoughtful and accurate information to their constituents. Accountability would indicate that an organization would reconsider actions and changes in process that are arbitrary and punitive in their very nature.
HUH? Wa?
accountability? for what? accurate? examples lad, examples. you can't charge the bastille if you don't tell the troops what their fighting for, who the enemy is, what is their strengths and what are their weaknesses.
what is arbitrary? the fee change? really? let me ask you something; in baseball a fair number of players have used performance enhancing drugs, about 100 or so failed the test, but how many players are in MLB? now, all of those players; the cheaters and the non cheaters are painted with the same brush. fair or unfair? they are all paying the penalty, they all have to be tested. fair or unfair? now i'll agree if you think that those that cheated perhaps should bear more of the burden, but the information got out and now all are privy to test questions. oh, in case you don't think they were punished, their names were published, they were forbidden to take exams for a period of time, previous scores were nullified and i think some were fined. is that punitive enough for you? so you have to pay more money, that means more incentive not to fail and pass the first go. in case you have not read the latest from NCARB;
The new rate of $210 per division will take effect on 1 October 2009. All exams scheduled on or after 1 October 2009 will be at the new rate. Prior to 1 October 2009, candidates can schedule future exam appointments through 31 December 2009 at the current rate of $170 per division.
Our beloved profession appears to be crumbling from the bottom up. This group of young and emerging professionals feels that they have no advocates, no voice and no power. They are actually frightened of NCARB because of the perceived control and lack of accountability that the organization has and are thus frozen from asking for any advocacy because of fears of retribution. It is difficult not to see that the mass abandonment of the profession by young people is directly linked to the issues outlined above.
if your criticism is to be directed at how NCARB works for you, then how can our profession be "crumbling from the bottom up?" using your words, isn't this a top down problem, as you state it? if there are any systemic problems with the "foundation" it's of our own doing. we take forever to complete IDP; i still have friends, very talented ones that are not licensed - it took me way too long. we fail to volunteer when NCARB calls for assistance in the tests. we fail to join the AIA and hold ourselves accountable to those entering the profession; we don't "require" firms to account for or provide the required IDP units. we undermine each other when we dumb down fees - to get the job. we are our own worst enemy. we are killing the profession, not NCARB. we fail to get involved, fail to care, so who cares when Interior Designers get more "license" to create architecture?
is NCARB without fault, hell no, but the problem is that you want to make them the enemy rather than engage in constructive dialog, and i guarantee you NCARB and the state boards will be here long after you get your license and forget about this thread, the facebook page and this matter altogether.
+1 to beta
in the interest of full disclosure, and to shed light on my problems with NCARB|
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/06/08 8:07
Honestly, Fix, the below hardly seems vetted by attorney's, if it has then I am even more concerned.
Dear NCARB,
This petition is submitted to convey to you a collective frustration in dealing with NCARB's appalling standards of organization and customer service, and the consequent roadblock that this represents to our careers. More importantly, it is submitted to request an immediate response, action and improvement to an unacceptable situation.
It is ironic that the very organization entrusted with overseeing a critical part of the professional Architectural Licensure process and thereby safeguarding the standards of the profession, itself consistently falls short of even a basic level of professional practice.
Most architecture school graduates never complete IDP, hardly surprising considering the difficulty many experience in working with NCARB. Despite the organization's stated core values of "Integrity, Service and Accountability", for countless IDP and examination candidates, records are lost, transmittals are kept in limbo for months or never sent, timelines promised on their websites are not honored, and phone messages and emails are left unanswered.
In order to rectify the problem, NCARB needs to improve its customer service and organizational standards immediately. An outside consulting agency should be retained to examine their processes and provide recommendations for manageable solutions. Some solutions that would greatly assist the process are as follows:
1. To have informed and knowledgeable human representatives be available during office hours to answer (or obtain immediate answers for) specific record questions.
2. Establishment of realistic timelines for processing, and adherence to those.
3. To establish an online account system for 24-hour applicant access to record status, record submittal, and communications with NCARB.
We the undersigned trust that NCARB will seriously consider and expediently act upon this petition.
Thank you,
Licensure Candidates and Registered Architects Across America
The entire letter is badly worded, the second paragraph should be removed altogether, the first sentence of the third paragraph is grossly overstated - without nay evidence or basis in fact.
I'll say more later...
Bloopox
Total Entries: 3
Total Comments: 576
05/06/08 9:03
I'm a little concerned that you keep changing the petition, while collecting signatures. When I first looked at your petition and considered signing it, it was a completely different letter. If I'd signed then, I would have been signing a different document than you'd actually be sending with my name attached! I know you've been tweaking this thing, getting feedback and such and that you don't intend any dishonesty. But if you've changed the letter AT ALL since you collected any signatures then it is not appropriate to send it anywhere with those signatures still attached. You need to come up with a final draft and THEN collect your signatures. Otherwise you're misrepresenting those who signed earlier.
At this point you need to scrap your existing petition, come up with a final version, and start from scratch with collecting signatures.
A few other notes:
It isn't true that "most architecture school graduates never complete IDP." NCARB, the AIA, and the state boards have statistics on that - the most recent I've seen do show a good majority of grads eventually completing IDP and about half of grads getting licensed.
Stating something incorrect and unsubstantiated like that in your petition is not helpful in making a credible case.
As for your three solutions: all of those are supposedly in the works currently. NCARB just did some major staff turnover and redefining of responsibilities - as outlined in the "Direct Connections" that just came out. The timing of your petition isn't great, since NCARB can answer that they've just implemented all these changes and it's too early to see how they will work out.
Needlebeam
Total Entries: 1
Total Comments: 47
05/06/08 9:29
ipetitions lets you change the petition after you already have signatures? That's shady. In that case you should either start over or email each person who signed and tell them you changed it and get their permission to keep their signature.
marmkid
Total Entries: 23
Total Comments: 1037
05/06/08 9:38
you probably shouldnt be completely negative and all bashing of NCARB either
if you say that you understand that changes are being discussed to improve the system, and you thought these would also be helpful, you might get a better response that, hey your system sucks and you dont answer my emails
besides, as bloopox just said, they are in the process of making changes, so by not acknowledging that at all in your rant, you sound like you havent done any homework at all, and havent even attempted to speak with someone at NCARB
demanding immediate action also doesnt paint you in the best light. lets be honest, they arent the worst organization ever made, and they dont wrong people on purpose
the system needs some tweaking, approach it that way
saying the whole thing is messed up like you do, makes you sound uninformed about the whole process
Formerlyunknown
Total Entries: 1
Total Comments: 301
05/06/08 10:42
The "Direct Connections" NCARB newsletter that just came out outlines a total reorganizing of NCARB's customer service and record keeping functions into 6 or 7 different departments, new managers, new procedures. You say that they're not being specific enough in their goals and reforms, but the short list you provide seems to suggest the same things they say they're doing now - with no more specificity. The front page of NCARB's website now has a "start your council record online" tab and they have plans to add more online features.
My experiences with NCARB haven't been very good. I'm all for change. But I do actually think that NCARB has identified that need and is working on it.
In 2007 there were a series NCARB surveys that went out to interns, architects, recently-registered people, mentors, etc. Those identified a lot of specific shortcomings at NCARB and they do seem to be taking action to directly address those.
The best way to get specific action is to identify specific issues and make NCARB and your own state board aware of the issues - no matter how small. This means that if your certification application is delayed, or you have a computer glitch at a testing center, or your email to NCARB goes unanswered, or your IDP record is languishing in its fifth month of "final review" then you must write about the what, when, where, whys of that particular situation and send that letter to NCARB and to your state board within days of experiencing the problem.
If everybody does that then it will be a much better demonstration of the particular problems and also the volume and frequency of those problems.
garpike
Total Entries: 58
Total Comments: 3732
05/06/08 16:10
Wow, what's this wow crap?
If you did have a reason to petition, I strongly recommend having it written by a professional. Poorly constructed sentences, like the following, seem less like argument and more like whining.
Most architecture school graduates never complete IDP, hardly surprising considering the difficulty many experience in working with NCARB.
houseofmud
Total Entries: 27
Total Comments: 1479
05/06/08 19:16
I agree with Garpike - Fix NCARB is the problem. I think perhaps he/she should start a petition against the grammar and rhetoric of the petition.
Just Why
Total Entries: 19
Total Comments: 1326
05/06/08 19:57
I've been quiet on this subject until now. Like another poster stated on the original thread, I was quite "gruntled" by my NCARB experience. I was patient yet diligent throughout the process, and I certainly didn't wait until the end to file my paperwork. The staff members with which I interacted were always courteous, and I received positive results.
It seems like there has been a mad rush to IDP ever since the new version of the ARE was announced. I would expect the volume to die down after the deadline to register under the previous version has passed.
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/06/08 20:42
there are problems, many have had them, i have had them. we just need a fact based, less emotional, argument crafted. the above argument does not do it for me, and i won't sign until it does. oh, and i don't have time to craft one either.
marmkid
Total Entries: 23
Total Comments: 1037
05/07/08 5:44
there are definitely some problems, but many of those are from people with unrealistic expectations of the process
how many times is it that people complain about IDP and its because they have 5 years worth of hours they demand credit for, yet have never worried about until now
you need specific problems with NCARB, and to have it written in a thoughtful way, with potential solutions to each problem
saying their customer service is bad doesnt mean anything
who's to say you arent being a jerk to them and are just pissed when they cant help you
i'd help craft one if i thought there was a real reason for this letter, but really, i dont see the point
all it will be is a whiny complaint letter
Steven Ward
Total Entries: 55
Total Comments: 9174
05/07/08 5:53
just wait 'til fixncarb hits the a.r.e. whew!
i fought about this stupidity of the exam format, design, and content for a year or so, got nowhere, became complacent, and faded into the wallpaper. it's hard to keep up the anger once you're registered.
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/21/08 13:46
you want to hate on NCARB try this inane bit bull...
Dear Mr.
I have spoken to Mr. XXXXX and you do options available for transmittal:
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
my response -
X,
I have some questions regarding the three points below. Attached is the application and instructions for XXXXXX comity application. After speaking with X at the State Board office, she stated XXXXXXXX would accept a letter from NCARB confirming completion of IDP.
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
I don’t think I follow this point. The state board requires confirmation – for comity – that I have fulfilled NCARB’s IDP requirements, which as you can see from my record I have more than satisfied. It seems that after speaking with their comity coordinator a letter verifying completion of IDP would suffice.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
This point leaves me completely baffled. You seem to suggest that NCARB is ABLE to send my record, but not my XXXXXregistration. I don’t understand what Form 155 is, and I am unable to locate it on XXXXXX website. Your final sentence is quite confusing; your first sentence suggests that you CAN send my record, but your last sentence notes that “…NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.” Please help me understand this point.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
This last point seems to suggest that I can get proceed with getting NCARB certified, is that correct?
X, I am trying to understand this process, I don’t understand why this is so complicated. I have spoken with XXXXX regarding comity, and they have explained that over half their applicants are comity applicants. It seems from your points above that the only way to get “confirmation” or “verification” of my IDP is to pay $300.00, but then you also suggest that NCARB does not typically send “confirmation” once I became registered. Given that fact, then your points to me confirm that the ONLY way to get my comity application approved is to become NCARB certified, yet the state of XXXXXX does not require NCARB certification.
Regards,
her response back to me -
Dear Mr. X,
Once an architect becomes registered, NCARB does not send an IDP record to a state board. You will have to become certified through NCARB in order to proceed with reciprocity.
I will request a copy of your registration for you so NCARB can have a copy on record if you choose to become certified and there is no charge by the XXXXXX state board for a copy of your registration and your test scores. (You registration and test score form is called 155.)
Once an architect is registered and can qualify for certification, NCARB does not send an IDP record or any type of IDP update to a state board. You will have to be evaluated for NCARB certification and although the XXXXXXX state board does not require certification, NCARB does. I apologize that you have been given information that was misleading by the XXXXXX state board but I do want to help you start the certification process in order for you to get the reciprocity that you need with the state of Minnesota.
Sincerely,
i am in fraking Twilight Zone here, fraking rabbit hole type shit...
my state does not require NCARB certification to get reciprocity, but NCARB is telling me they don't do what my state and i am asking for, which means i need NCARB certification - EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REQUIRED?
you want an effective argument for abolishing NCARB, here it is....THEIR VISION
NCARB Vision
As the facilitator for the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public, the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards:
Requires a NAAB-accredited degree, successful completion of the Intern Development Program (IDP) and successful completion of the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Protects and enhances the validity of the Intern Develop Program (IDP) and the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Encourages all architects to become Certificate holders.
Advocates for the elimination of impediments to reciprocity.
Serves as the trusted international center of registration data and regulatory information.
Values diversity of opinion and representation.
Promotes recognition of the architect as the primary building professional qualified to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public, through the enhancement of the quality of the built environment and the richness of space and form.
who are they kidding?
frak|
b3tadine[sutures]
Total Entries: 117
Total Comments: 5462
05/21/08 13:46
you want to hate on NCARB try this inane bit bull...
Dear Mr.
I have spoken to Mr. XXXXX and you do options available for transmittal:
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
my response -
X,
I have some questions regarding the three points below. Attached is the application and instructions for XXXXXX comity application. After speaking with X at the State Board office, she stated XXXXXXXX would accept a letter from NCARB confirming completion of IDP.
1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
I don’t think I follow this point. The state board requires confirmation – for comity – that I have fulfilled NCARB’s IDP requirements, which as you can see from my record I have more than satisfied. It seems that after speaking with their comity coordinator a letter verifying completion of IDP would suffice.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
This point leaves me completely baffled. You seem to suggest that NCARB is ABLE to send my record, but not my XXXXXregistration. I don’t understand what Form 155 is, and I am unable to locate it on XXXXXX website. Your final sentence is quite confusing; your first sentence suggests that you CAN send my record, but your last sentence notes that “…NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.” Please help me understand this point.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.
This last point seems to suggest that I can get proceed with getting NCARB certified, is that correct?
X, I am trying to understand this process, I don’t understand why this is so complicated. I have spoken with XXXXX regarding comity, and they have explained that over half their applicants are comity applicants. It seems from your points above that the only way to get “confirmation” or “verification” of my IDP is to pay $300.00, but then you also suggest that NCARB does not typically send “confirmation” once I became registered. Given that fact, then your points to me confirm that the ONLY way to get my comity application approved is to become NCARB certified, yet the state of XXXXXX does not require NCARB certification.
Regards,
her response back to me -
Dear Mr. X,
Once an architect becomes registered, NCARB does not send an IDP record to a state board. You will have to become certified through NCARB in order to proceed with reciprocity.
I will request a copy of your registration for you so NCARB can have a copy on record if you choose to become certified and there is no charge by the XXXXXX state board for a copy of your registration and your test scores. (You registration and test score form is called 155.)
Once an architect is registered and can qualify for certification, NCARB does not send an IDP record or any type of IDP update to a state board. You will have to be evaluated for NCARB certification and although the XXXXXXX state board does not require certification, NCARB does. I apologize that you have been given information that was misleading by the XXXXXX state board but I do want to help you start the certification process in order for you to get the reciprocity that you need with the state of Minnesota.
Sincerely,
i am in fraking Twilight Zone here, fraking rabbit hole type shit...
my state does not require NCARB certification to get reciprocity, but NCARB is telling me they don't do what my state and i am asking for, which means i need NCARB certification - EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REQUIRED?
you want an effective argument for abolishing NCARB, here it is....THEIR VISION
NCARB Vision
As the facilitator for the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public, the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards:
Requires a NAAB-accredited degree, successful completion of the Intern Development Program (IDP) and successful completion of the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Protects and enhances the validity of the Intern Develop Program (IDP) and the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Encourages all architects to become Certificate holders.
Advocates for the elimination of impediments to reciprocity.
Serves as the trusted international center of registration data and regulatory information.
Values diversity of opinion and representation.
Promotes recognition of the architect as the primary building professional qualified to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public, through the enhancement of the quality of the built environment and the richness of space and form.
who are they kidding?
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