I had a regular pin up and I brought my work (models and drawings), I misunderstood the directions and I brought one of drawing for a diagram. Overall I brought more work than all my classmate for example: one classmate brought just drawings and he missed the most important thing, the models. The instructor gave a great critic and did not seem to have any issue with fact that my classmate did not do the models(which takes more time than the drawings). when my turn to get some feedback came up, the instructor did even let me finish my explanation as always, to start asking question that would of be answered with my explanation. At the end, the instructor call my work and I quote: " you just brought a cheap work". All I'm wondering is, is ethical to call a student's work cheap?, is that even professional? I felt very bad, because I brought the models and someone that did not bring models had a good feedback.
Crits are subjective and the amount of things you bring up do not correlate to the quality of the project. I've attended and participated in many crits where one of the panel members (perhaps me at times) even had the nerve to sketch directly on a student's drawings (hand drawings at the time) or even break apart models to demonstrate ideas. It's part of design studio culture it seems and sometimes things go off the rails for no other apparent reason than the reviewer felt like it... especially if it is a guest with no other connection to the school.
The best project presentations I've seen are those with selectively chosen material... even if the minimum requirements demanded more. If the project is well thought-out, the conversation that follows will reflect the project's quality/success rather than the lack of visual material.
Perhaps "cheap" is a word you find insulting but it should be up to you, the student, to seek an explanation to the critique. One of my biggest pet-peeves while attending project reviews were students saying "well... I did what was required" Yes, yes they did, but sometimes it's still not as good as the one with a charcoal sketch inside the lid of a pizza box.
I don't know if this helps, perhaps it does not but the point it, studio crits are highly subjective and unless you ask for clarification on the spot, it's easy to take comments the wrong way. It is not unethical or unprofessional to attack a project, it is on the other hand if they attack the student.
I mean, you would never say a professor is being unethical by giving a student an F would you? unless the student really deserved much better. I think the same is true with arch criticism. If the criticism is their genuine appraisal I don't really think it's unethical.
On the other hand that does not speak for a teacher sense of tact. I once had a studio professor with a very bad sense of tact, and while this person was very honest and probably accurate much of the time, they had a very hard time being constructive and adding to the work with their criticism rather than just ripping people app art. This is of course made worse by the somewhat subjective nature of design work.
Don't let it get you down. Sometimes the best projects come from really harsh criticism.
better get used to it - wait tell you get into the profession - wait until the General Contractor gets a hold of you in a meeting - "you DumbF**k architects don't know s**t - or in studio at a certain big office "Oh that's so undergrad" hey your instructor is just trying to toughen you up.
Nov 20, 13 3:37 pm ·
·
If the work is cheap then it's perfectly fine to call it cheap. There's no ethical problem there.
You say you "felt bad" but you need to get over that. Crits arn't personal attacks. They are comments on the work as presented. How you feel does not matter. Noobdy cares how you feel now, and they sure as hell won't care when you become an architect and, trust me, people will say much nastier things about your work once it's in the public realm (rather than a studio crit).
Also, don't compare yourself to classmates—I brought a model but he didn't? that's not fair!—because no good will come of it. And understand that pin up crits are not necessarily the same as your studio grades (that is, they are not like a math course where the two big exams are each equal to %50 each of your final mark.) Your studio instructor will judge your grade (and your model-less classmate's) on the full picture of your studio (presentation crits but also behind the scenes effort, growth, and final product).
As for the presentation, Non sequitor is correct in suggesting selectively chosen material. You need to think of the presentation as it's own living beast and make an editorial choice to display your work in the best manner possible. This rarely means showing everything that you have. Working on the presentation is a good time to evaluate the questions that you should already be asking yourself such as, What am I doing? What am I building towards? What's the story? Why would anybody else care to hear about my work?
Frankly, a lot of students struggle with their presentations. A lot of professionals too, so at least you're not alone.
I agree with Miles. The entire point of a critique is for the student to learn something. If you think the critic is being lazy, or needlessly snotty, or wordy and pretentious to impress other critics, or intentionally opaque for his/her own reasons, politely and respectfully call him/her on it. Say "I don't understand what you mean by "cheap", can you tell me more? Few critics will let pass the oportunity to keep their mouths moving (myself included, for sure!).
Should have challenged him on the spot. "What do you mean by cheap?"
Right. But most students, particularly if 18 to 23, won't do that. Regardless, if the prof says a project is great, he or she should tell you what's great about it. If the prof says the project is shitty, he or she should tell you what's shitty about it. The problem with reviews is that it becomes about the reviewer and not the student. It's a soapbox for the narcissist that is more than one architecture professor. Harsh criticism, particularly if early on and they work with you by diagramming, sketching, and discussing, can make for a good project at the end of a term.
I only had one altercation in architecture school. Imagine that? Just one! The prof was a dick. He was a foreigner and came with a feudal apprenticed vassal / old school mentality. This country is more egalitarian and profs tend to be more respectful of non-traditional students, meaning anyone who came to grad school with a time gap because they had worked. We had to do a performing arts complex to jump start a declining town and I had planned to place it in a rectilinear manner on the square site set aside for it, though the geometries were not fully rectilinear. He made me skew it toward a piece of shit radio tower, the tallest thing in this town, and I complied. When it came time to be reviewed, an outside critic made a comment about how spendy it would be to build (some curves, no budget given) and that the radio tower could be dismantled or moved. True that. This outside critic always gave productive crits. The cowardly prof with an inflated attitude looked downward as I looked in his direction. It wasn't exactly the Washington Monument the project was "bowing" to.
Do you discuss projects among yourselves, meaning among the students? Do you have professors prior to this one who you bonded with who could give you some quick informal advice? Some will do that.
^agree with miles. challenge them. crits aren't just for you to be talked at-- they're supposed to be a discussion. keep in mind though that there's a difference between challenging and flipping out/going off at someone, even if they are an ass.
They are couple of points that did not include that may help to understand why that comment offended me.
1. This is not my first "rodeo", I've been in a lot of reviews and critics as part of my under graduate. This is a Professional degree( M. Arch) where we are not kids and personally I've professional experience on the field.
2. As you may know a review implies multiple guess reviewers. I was the last one to present my project to the guess and the guess allowed me to explain (as it is was suppose to be with the instructor). Also, the guess was not present when the comment was made. The reviewer told me that I had a great concept, good design strategy and seem to be very excited about my project, and suggested to use materials that my instructor felt were useless. The fact is that I was the last one to demonstrate my progress to the guess (just to the guess) which gave the guess multiple point to compare if I had cheap work or not.
3. This person is very temperamental. I didn't challenge the instructor on the spot, because it would of end up in a ward!... and I'm positive of that.
I try to be very professional, responsible and respectful this person has shown no objectivity at all. Sometimes the ins gets mad, rises the voice when someone tries to explain anything after the feedback. I think I'll use more expensive materials no more cheapboard, basswood, cardboard or plain paper for my drawings, from now on just museumboard and high quality paper...lol.
Miles, The answer is I don't know what the critic was referring to. The quality of my presentation was more than good, actually that's the only compliment have received from my instructor the quality of my presentation, which confuse me more. I joked about the materials I used, because that's a very literal interpretation of that term. I've great craftsmanship and my even the process ones are presentation quality!
archigeniss, some of the most inspired work I've seen has literally been on the back of pizza boxes and scraps of canary yellow trace. A good reviewer would not dwell on the quality on the materials you chose to draw or model from; although a dick guest can be a dick for no other reason that he/she is a dick, it seems like perhaps you are trying to defend your project's integrity by putting the blame elsewhere (ex: Cheap = paper and cardboard vs cheap = badly thought out project).
w
Nov 21, 13 8:39 am ·
·
oh shit, this is an m. arch student with these problems?
^agree with miles. challenge them. crits aren't just for you to be talked at-- they're supposed to be a discussion. keep in mind though that there's a difference between challenging and flipping out/going off at someone, even if they are an ass.
I disagree with the challenge part, and I can be confrontational. Duh. If they're an ass, it won't do any good. If they're constructive, they'll say their piece. If we're at an interim point, absorb what you can. At the end of the term, say nothing. An altercation will have a "recency effect" when coming up with evaluations, and grades, and it's the studio professor that hands those out. Still, one shouldn't design a certain way for a grade. It should be an extension of oneself. Also, a good design with lackluster graphics and models is kind of weak. If a person went through enough trouble to produce a good design, commensurate graphics and models are expected.
^I think it is healthy to challenge them up to a point. (probably mid term reviews)
You don't want to be overly confrontational about it, but when people are not being clear on their criticism and advice i feel as though it's almost necessary.
Those who start to challenge people in their final reviews are making a huge mistake. I once had a bunch of critics get mad at me because they kept suggesting that I should look at this and that and consider this other thing and that other thing... and i kept coming back at them explaining that I had done all of these things, provided my research, and explained how I integrated it into the design. I guess being thorough isn't always a good thing haha
Nov 21, 13 3:11 pm ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
Is correct to call a student's work cheap?
I had a regular pin up and I brought my work (models and drawings), I misunderstood the directions and I brought one of drawing for a diagram. Overall I brought more work than all my classmate for example: one classmate brought just drawings and he missed the most important thing, the models. The instructor gave a great critic and did not seem to have any issue with fact that my classmate did not do the models(which takes more time than the drawings). when my turn to get some feedback came up, the instructor did even let me finish my explanation as always, to start asking question that would of be answered with my explanation. At the end, the instructor call my work and I quote: " you just brought a cheap work". All I'm wondering is, is ethical to call a student's work cheap?, is that even professional? I felt very bad, because I brought the models and someone that did not bring models had a good feedback.
Crits are subjective and the amount of things you bring up do not correlate to the quality of the project. I've attended and participated in many crits where one of the panel members (perhaps me at times) even had the nerve to sketch directly on a student's drawings (hand drawings at the time) or even break apart models to demonstrate ideas. It's part of design studio culture it seems and sometimes things go off the rails for no other apparent reason than the reviewer felt like it... especially if it is a guest with no other connection to the school.
The best project presentations I've seen are those with selectively chosen material... even if the minimum requirements demanded more. If the project is well thought-out, the conversation that follows will reflect the project's quality/success rather than the lack of visual material.
Perhaps "cheap" is a word you find insulting but it should be up to you, the student, to seek an explanation to the critique. One of my biggest pet-peeves while attending project reviews were students saying "well... I did what was required" Yes, yes they did, but sometimes it's still not as good as the one with a charcoal sketch inside the lid of a pizza box.
I don't know if this helps, perhaps it does not but the point it, studio crits are highly subjective and unless you ask for clarification on the spot, it's easy to take comments the wrong way. It is not unethical or unprofessional to attack a project, it is on the other hand if they attack the student.
I think that depends on the situation.
I mean, you would never say a professor is being unethical by giving a student an F would you? unless the student really deserved much better. I think the same is true with arch criticism. If the criticism is their genuine appraisal I don't really think it's unethical.
On the other hand that does not speak for a teacher sense of tact. I once had a studio professor with a very bad sense of tact, and while this person was very honest and probably accurate much of the time, they had a very hard time being constructive and adding to the work with their criticism rather than just ripping people app art. This is of course made worse by the somewhat subjective nature of design work.
Don't let it get you down. Sometimes the best projects come from really harsh criticism.
better get used to it - wait tell you get into the profession - wait until the General Contractor gets a hold of you in a meeting - "you DumbF**k architects don't know s**t - or in studio at a certain big office "Oh that's so undergrad" hey your instructor is just trying to toughen you up.
If the work is cheap then it's perfectly fine to call it cheap. There's no ethical problem there.
You say you "felt bad" but you need to get over that. Crits arn't personal attacks. They are comments on the work as presented. How you feel does not matter. Noobdy cares how you feel now, and they sure as hell won't care when you become an architect and, trust me, people will say much nastier things about your work once it's in the public realm (rather than a studio crit).
Also, don't compare yourself to classmates—I brought a model but he didn't? that's not fair!—because no good will come of it. And understand that pin up crits are not necessarily the same as your studio grades (that is, they are not like a math course where the two big exams are each equal to %50 each of your final mark.) Your studio instructor will judge your grade (and your model-less classmate's) on the full picture of your studio (presentation crits but also behind the scenes effort, growth, and final product).
As for the presentation, Non sequitor is correct in suggesting selectively chosen material. You need to think of the presentation as it's own living beast and make an editorial choice to display your work in the best manner possible. This rarely means showing everything that you have. Working on the presentation is a good time to evaluate the questions that you should already be asking yourself such as, What am I doing? What am I building towards? What's the story? Why would anybody else care to hear about my work?
Frankly, a lot of students struggle with their presentations. A lot of professionals too, so at least you're not alone.
Should have challenged him on the spot. "What do you mean by cheap?"
I agree with Miles. The entire point of a critique is for the student to learn something. If you think the critic is being lazy, or needlessly snotty, or wordy and pretentious to impress other critics, or intentionally opaque for his/her own reasons, politely and respectfully call him/her on it. Say "I don't understand what you mean by "cheap", can you tell me more? Few critics will let pass the oportunity to keep their mouths moving (myself included, for sure!).
Should have challenged him on the spot. "What do you mean by cheap?"
Right. But most students, particularly if 18 to 23, won't do that. Regardless, if the prof says a project is great, he or she should tell you what's great about it. If the prof says the project is shitty, he or she should tell you what's shitty about it. The problem with reviews is that it becomes about the reviewer and not the student. It's a soapbox for the narcissist that is more than one architecture professor. Harsh criticism, particularly if early on and they work with you by diagramming, sketching, and discussing, can make for a good project at the end of a term.
I only had one altercation in architecture school. Imagine that? Just one! The prof was a dick. He was a foreigner and came with a feudal apprenticed vassal / old school mentality. This country is more egalitarian and profs tend to be more respectful of non-traditional students, meaning anyone who came to grad school with a time gap because they had worked. We had to do a performing arts complex to jump start a declining town and I had planned to place it in a rectilinear manner on the square site set aside for it, though the geometries were not fully rectilinear. He made me skew it toward a piece of shit radio tower, the tallest thing in this town, and I complied. When it came time to be reviewed, an outside critic made a comment about how spendy it would be to build (some curves, no budget given) and that the radio tower could be dismantled or moved. True that. This outside critic always gave productive crits. The cowardly prof with an inflated attitude looked downward as I looked in his direction. It wasn't exactly the Washington Monument the project was "bowing" to.
Do you discuss projects among yourselves, meaning among the students? Do you have professors prior to this one who you bonded with who could give you some quick informal advice? Some will do that.
^agree with miles. challenge them. crits aren't just for you to be talked at-- they're supposed to be a discussion. keep in mind though that there's a difference between challenging and flipping out/going off at someone, even if they are an ass.
They are couple of points that did not include that may help to understand why that comment offended me.
1. This is not my first "rodeo", I've been in a lot of reviews and critics as part of my under graduate. This is a Professional degree( M. Arch) where we are not kids and personally I've professional experience on the field.
2. As you may know a review implies multiple guess reviewers. I was the last one to present my project to the guess and the guess allowed me to explain (as it is was suppose to be with the instructor). Also, the guess was not present when the comment was made. The reviewer told me that I had a great concept, good design strategy and seem to be very excited about my project, and suggested to use materials that my instructor felt were useless. The fact is that I was the last one to demonstrate my progress to the guess (just to the guess) which gave the guess multiple point to compare if I had cheap work or not.
3. This person is very temperamental. I didn't challenge the instructor on the spot, because it would of end up in a ward!... and I'm positive of that.
I try to be very professional, responsible and respectful this person has shown no objectivity at all. Sometimes the ins gets mad, rises the voice when someone tries to explain anything after the feedback. I think I'll use more expensive materials no more cheapboard, basswood, cardboard or plain paper for my drawings, from now on just museumboard and high quality paper...lol.
So you actually knew all along what the critic was referring to? Specifically, the quality of your presentation.
Seems rather petty now that you tell us you're not in 2nd year undergrad.
Miles, The answer is I don't know what the critic was referring to. The quality of my presentation was more than good, actually that's the only compliment have received from my instructor the quality of my presentation, which confuse me more. I joked about the materials I used, because that's a very literal interpretation of that term. I've great craftsmanship and my even the process ones are presentation quality!
archigeniss, some of the most inspired work I've seen has literally been on the back of pizza boxes and scraps of canary yellow trace. A good reviewer would not dwell on the quality on the materials you chose to draw or model from; although a dick guest can be a dick for no other reason that he/she is a dick, it seems like perhaps you are trying to defend your project's integrity by putting the blame elsewhere (ex: Cheap = paper and cardboard vs cheap = badly thought out project).
w
oh shit, this is an m. arch student with these problems?
^agree with miles. challenge them. crits aren't just for you to be talked at-- they're supposed to be a discussion. keep in mind though that there's a difference between challenging and flipping out/going off at someone, even if they are an ass.
I disagree with the challenge part, and I can be confrontational. Duh. If they're an ass, it won't do any good. If they're constructive, they'll say their piece. If we're at an interim point, absorb what you can. At the end of the term, say nothing. An altercation will have a "recency effect" when coming up with evaluations, and grades, and it's the studio professor that hands those out. Still, one shouldn't design a certain way for a grade. It should be an extension of oneself. Also, a good design with lackluster graphics and models is kind of weak. If a person went through enough trouble to produce a good design, commensurate graphics and models are expected.
^I think it is healthy to challenge them up to a point. (probably mid term reviews)
You don't want to be overly confrontational about it, but when people are not being clear on their criticism and advice i feel as though it's almost necessary.
Those who start to challenge people in their final reviews are making a huge mistake. I once had a bunch of critics get mad at me because they kept suggesting that I should look at this and that and consider this other thing and that other thing... and i kept coming back at them explaining that I had done all of these things, provided my research, and explained how I integrated it into the design. I guess being thorough isn't always a good thing haha
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.