i always accepted late nights as this absurd thing you have to get through during school (i.e. when you're not supposed to have a normal life) but that's not a part of a real world. i always thought to myself, how could any real adult tolerate these same conditions that are almost causing me to break during just my 3 year stint in grad school?
but then i spent a summer working for a starchitect. and the bare minimum we would ever work was like 8am-8pm, which is already a damn long day. usually, though, we were there til 9 or 10, often on saturdays and sunday, and frequently even until the early morning hours. wtf?
then i worked at a small boutique high-design firm where the hours were much more tolerable (830-630 most days, occasionally stay much later or come on saturday if there's a big deadline), but that was still a damn lot of work and left me with very little free time.
so... how common is the practice of absurd hours in the working world? i really value my free time - i wanna sleep enough, i wanna exercise, i wanna have relationships, maybe get me some kids and be a good parent to them... but i also wanna be an awesome architect and not be some underling at a boring firm.
10.00 to 6.00 was the shortest i have ever worked but the office that did that was in down-cycle. for me personally 8 to 10 hours is reasonable.
the idea that no one else works hard and long hours is a fallacy. most of my family, who work in hog plants, hospitals and other reglar stuff work damn hard for little to good money. no one is getting rich. so i don't ever complain that i am working too much because at least i can move when ever i want...
my brother on the other hand is a professional street performer and earns good money usually working about 10-20 hours a week. maybe you should try that...
Architectural practice rarely is an 8-hour day / 40-hour week world. However, in our community I know of very few, if any, firms where the employees average more than 10-20% overtime over the course of a year. Sure, in some cases you may pull some late nights or long weekends to meet a deadline. But, generally there are many, many 40-42 hours weeks between such episodes.
Having said that, the industry is rife with stories of routine 70-80 hours weeks. I'd say that any firm that operates that way as a norm is either a) poorly managed, or b) deliberately taking advantage of its staff.
If you ask around before accepting a job, you generally can determine which firms in a community have the reputation of being a sweat shop. You still may find it worthwhile to accept a position in such a firm because of the experience you might gain, but at least you will know the firm's culture before the fact.
You should read a book titled "Soul murder and Slavery" by Nell Irvan Painter. It's a book the outlines how chattel slavery, employment and expectations of the antebellum had invented processes by which slave owners (and future employers) can break humans. "Soul murder" is essentially the practice turning people into products through a systematic approach of humiliation, domination and subjugation until the subordinate is rendered into a person with no concept of self-worth.
There's also the interesting book titled "Student as Nigger." This one basically says that public education and modern university are more akin to work camps than they are places of enrichment-- several factors like political correctness, increasing life expectancies, a broken pension system and other factors... students are being transformed into "niggers" as younger people are not respected as peers, their education is geared towards them not addressing anything with a highly political nature (like "crime prevention through environmental design" is essentially jim crow laws with the word "nigger" removed) and higher demands on minimum education requirements is isolating a generation into "niggerdom" so that generations can ride out the rest of their lives without having to pay for it [hello. 30-year bonds!].
Another good one is "Soul by Soul: Life Inside an Antebellum Slave Market." This one is a lot more in depth and like the other two books explains that how the system of slavery has irreversibly damaged the culture of America. The Age of Expansion was essentially built on the backs of slaves and how most all modern employment and living practices are an extension of chattel slavery. Most people who were of any success at the time and others wishing to be successful created a dogma on how to treat, buy, evaluate and related to "employees."
The point of this is most 20th century employment practices are continuations of this and just because the Civil Rights Act was passed or slavery was outlawed do not mean these cultural phenomenon just instantly vaporize over night.
I mean, seriously, I'm looking around the floor right now (7pm Friday) and the only people still here are those of us who are above the overtime pay threshhold.
i think that this is just a silly question. let's phrase it a different way.
should i work for free?
or how about for 1/2 price?
the answer is NO!! why do we put up with this?
your employers have accepted a job expecting a certain amount of hours to be worked (expense) so request a certain fee. we are promoting bad management by working constant overtime.
EXCEPTION:
if it is your fault (i.e. too much archinect or just screwing around) then you ethically should work it. occassionally, to finish a project or for a deadline you could.
Urbanist - I have not qualified for overtime since the moment i stepped out of school. Most firms pay salary for interns up here in the DC area, even though the official policy of the AIA is that interns should be paid hourly and overtime.
Every firm I worked in subtracts vacation time or pay if you work under 40 hours a week, but only one actually payed you more for working overtime (of course it wasn't time and a half and it came at the end of the year, but still). One firm i worked in required that you work an average of 8 hours a day during the week per month (if the month broke mid week, each part of the week needed to average 8+ hours a day otherwise you lost vacation). I have worked in one firm where you got a severe talking to if you were putting in less than 50 hours a week, we were told that it showed lack of commitment to the firm.
All told, still, I rarely worked past 7 or 9 unless by choice (making up time or meeting a deadline) whereas I have friends who routinely work from 8 to midnight and weekends. OF course they are only doing this when they are on deadline, but it just so happens that they are ALWAYS on deadline.
I just wish that there was a culture of comp time in architecture firms. I wouldn't mind working late and crazy hours (i wouldn't mind working at all right now) if I got something back for my sacrifice later, besides continued employment.
This is something that I find disturbing as an undergrad student... I can't believe I"ll be expected to work 20-40 hours of overtime every week at any halfway decent firm, FOR NO COMPENSATION.
Seriously, if I was compensated I wouldn't mind.... >_<
jk3hl--
Then DON'T. The only reason the profession is like this is because so many people are willing to do exactly what you said: work for no compensation. If we stand up for ourselves then we will not have this issue.
Nobody ever looks back and says "I wish I'd worked more overtime."
I was at a job a few years ago, where I'd been for 3 years without a pay raise, and I was asked to take a pay cut. Meanwhile, my work had brought in several awards and business was booming.
The reason? My boss wanted new ($4000) rims for his SUV, and his wife wanted to put a mansard roof on their house. They didn't tell me this, but that's what it amounted to. That time solidified in my mind that I'm not breaking my ass for somebody else, because chances are they wouldn't do the same for me.
Wow, jump, you are lucky! Is that Japanese culture?
I've worked one job in 7 where I was paid overtime; and it was only offered above 43 hours (I think -- can't remember) and (luckily) I never hit that threshold. The others either paid straight hourly (my favorite, and only 1 job) or straight salary with no overtime (sucks).
I completely agree that the firm will take advantage of whatever you offer them (in a way), but the problem with the "stand up for yourself and don't take the job!" fallacy is that this is really hard to do when you're actually out there interviewing. Realistically, unless you have savings to burn while trying to garner simultaneous multiple competing offers from various firms you've interviewed with, you're pretty much stuck with what the going set-up is. Sure, you can ask for overtime payment, but if the firm isn't offering it to anyone else, they won't offer it to you (because everyone else would want it). They may counter by giving you a little salary bump in order to hire you, but then you will be pressured to put in the (unpaid) overtime that justifies the extra salary you asked for. Which is fine (you do technically owe them extra time now), but it's very psychologically stressful and makes it very hard for you to draw the line at a certain amount of hours.
I've thought about the whole thing a lot and I would love a real, honest, and thoughtful discussion about how we might begin to address these sorts of issues in the real world of architecture employment.
A lot of times these kinds of discussions crop up here on archinect and people just start knee-jerking either the "that's the way it is, shut up and live with it!" reactionary-ism OR they do the opposite: "we should get paid what we work, don't stand for being dicked over!" without actually thinking through how that "stand up" might work.
I'd be interested for actual thoughtful reflection on this issue...
: I can't believe I"ll be expected to work 20-40 hours of overtime every week at any halfway decent firm, FOR NO COMPENSATION.
Spoken like someone with little or no office experience. If you're still in school and approaching graduation, in this particular economy I expect you'll be happy to accept any job offered.
I don't really mean to be snarky. But, what you're forgetting is that at "any halfway decent firm" year-end bonuses more than make up for the 'unpaid' extra hours you put in.
Admittedly, this becomes a leap of faith. But, if you persist in embracing an 'hourly' mentality, you'll be viewed as blue-color labor instead of a professional.
As one rises in the profession, the risk reward ratio evolves. The higher you go, the more your total comp. depends on year-end bonuses.
Keep thinking hourly and the longer you'll stay a CAD monkey.
That extra 10-20 hours of work per week gets you laid off last. All the kids who jockeyed for their salaries and left at 5pm or else they would jump ships are now in their liferaft or waiting in line for one.
Yes overtime is to be expected. Feds have fined several large architecture firms for not paying overtime to salaried employees who aren't in true managerial positions. Employment law is very clear; you must be an exempt employee with distinct management responsibilities to be excluded from overtime pay for overtime hours. Many firms skirt the law.
I've worked at a low hourly rate for an entry-level position with overtime pay, and at a salary that nonetheless received overtime pay at midlevel. Some firms only pay fixed salaries, expect all to put significant overtime hours in. Yes, some people leave at 5 pm unless specifically forced to stay, and some of those are shirkers and some have other responsibilities (family, kids, sick parents, etc.) in their life. Ever wonder where all the architects over age 40, 50, or 60 are? Being an architect doesn't mean your life is devoted to the "altar of architecture.
Many years ago, I worked for a studio head who insisted a routine of 9 am to 10 pm day, 1 hr for lunch and 1 hr for dinner, Sat hours of 10 am to 3 pm, regardless whether there was a deadline, regardless whether fee could support amount of needless man-hour charges. Often people sat at their work-stations and played, sitting nights in the un-airconditioned space. A tremendous waste of time and money. Most of us weren't associates, so we still qualified for overtime pay. Eventually this studio head was demoted. He was a nice guy, but clueless. The large corporate firm is well-known for its ruthless partner politics and demanding work environment. There are few middle-aged people there beyond partners.
Architecture is not just monastic time devotion, cool wardrobe, and buzz words; it's also a profit-driven business. (Unless the principals are independently wealthy, and/or have several benefactors in the background.)
My first studio experience, at entry-level, the studio head maintained an even keel over manpower hour expectations. We made the deadlines without long hours, international client was happy, project moved forward, etc. It was a content large Chicago office of a national firm, doing decent work.
Also note that overtime now won't be compensated with a bonus at year's end if you're laid off before December. For a high-percentage of presently-employed architects, lay-offs are eminent even if you're consistently the last person out the door. Face time is not the ultimate factor in determining pecking order, or value to office.
More valued is the ability to take responsibility, do accurate and complete work in a timely manner, and ability to provide leadership to the project in a meaningful manner.
: "More valued is the ability to take responsibility, do accurate and complete work in a timely manner, and ability to provide leadership to the project in a meaningful manner.
Amen to that! Our firm pays these people very, very well. And they earn every penny.
It's not about the hours - it's about the results. Focus on results and appropriate compensation will follow.
if you want to change the world (or at least pay policies) start your own firm / buy into one.
I worked at a comp time flex time job ( after 40 it was straight time). I worked for "salary" had heated discussion about why I could not leave at 40 hours.
I have been running our firm for 10 years and unless you have more experience than I do, (15 years) you get time and one half.
Do other people actually agree with Chicago that "results" are more important to your respectable firms than working overtime?
I mean, don't they all think that overtime = results? If they see you're not working as -much- they'll assume you're not working as -well- or as -hard-.
Again, I'm just an undergrad with one internship under my belt, I worked for a larger firm ~150 people in Boston. I guess I would like to spend time with friends and family on weekdays, or whatever, while still advancing my career as a trendy, professional architect.
I guess I'll have to train myself to enjoy 10 hour workdays?
i look at it as 'how many changes are needed and are they being charged/time adjusted'
in the small place i work, i can have a project dd/cd and parts ready for the cnc within a day or 2 (talking about exhibits).... but then for some reason theres another change which makes me have to remodel the unit and remake the sections/etc and the parts..... then theres another change...wtf
just finalizes that damn design already and give it to me..... it just pisses me off more when it's the little pittly b.s. that affects everything....
i can see maybe changing finishes...but when things change in size/shape/form then your back to square 1
jk3hl - to be sure, there are firms that only value the number of hours you work. IMO, those sweat shops tend to be poorly managed firms and rarely represent good career stepping stones.
Other firms focus more on what value each individual adds and don't measure contribution solely by quantity of hours. My experience suggests that this sort of firm predominates. However, some of these firms also work long hours - but compensation tends to parallel the effort, either through OT pay or generous bonuses.
Even in firms that work long hours, don't believe the managers fail to understand who's productive and who's not. It's easy to make that distinction.
Finally, I beleve firms that expect extremely long hours for minimal pay don't value their employees or their work. Don't buy into this corrupt equation - no matter the fame of the firm or the person in charge.
If you're an entry-level or mid-level person who thinks that willingness to happily do overtime is the key to job security and good reviews, you're wrong. Senior-level people are accutely aware of who is a slow-production person, or a "social butterfly" or slacker who regularly wastes time, or someone who needs to be spoon-fed each redlined work assignment. Firms have tolerated weaker architectural staff when it was difficult to staff-up. Now, hardworking people, backed by legitimate references from other firms' senior-level people, are readily available.
I'm not against all-nighters and overtime per se. But question the culture of "all-nighters", knowing that there is significant noticable time mismanagement occurring in some architectural firms. If you personally fit in categories of slow, slacker, or "spoon-feeder", firms won't look at your overtime hours tally to save you now that firms are in precarious positions.
Some firms pay overtime to entry-level and mid-level personnel, which creates significant additional labor cost to firms that comes out of base fee. Few clients will compensate an architectural firm for overtime expenses, even if overtime requirement was somehow caused by client changes. Some entry-level people use overtime pay to significantly increase their take-home pay by "working" overtime EVEN IF THERE IS NO DEADLINE PUSH, if management isn't closely monitoring situation. Again, that labor cost is charged against fees collected, reducing legitimate profitability. Some small firms are so poorly managed that principals don't have clear idea of their total labor costs related to fees collected until their annual financial statements are prepared.
Few firms bill on an hourly rate; most firm fees are based on percentage of construction cost, or fixed fee calculated at project start based upon man-hour projections. A studio's "all-nighter" group-think mentality can reduce a firm's legitimate fee calculation into a money-loser project.
First, I find people are often unrealistic about how much they ACTUALLY work. But really, a guy would regularly show up after 9, take a 3-4 hour lunch, and often left at 4. I'll give him some nights and weekends, but M-F 8-5, he was barely hitting 20 hours and, yes, dropping a LOT of balls in the meantime. Yet he insisted he worked 60+ hours a week. I don't know, add 'em up, dude. Too bad he was the boss, so no one could point it out that it doesn't add up.
Friends in other professions routinely tell me they work 70-80 or even 100 hours a week too. My brother, the doctor... but then he tells me how he went golfing on Thursday, hit happy hour on Friday, saw a movie and went out with friends for dinner on Saturday, went to church, etc. Plus his commute is 4 hours a day for 2 days a week, and 1 hour the other days. And you're still working 10-12+ hours a day? How long is a week in your worlds?
Yeah it is now 11:00 AM CST and I have been doing accounting at the office since 7:00! I now get to work on the website and possibly do some red marks. So about 4 hours on Sunday and 9 hours m-f.
100 hours a week, not working on Sunday, is 16 hours per day... if you sleep at least 7 hours, there's only 1 hour left each day for having breakfast, lunch, dinner, walking a bit, and a couple of minutes to surf the net, watch TV or take out the dog... this is just ridiculous. I can't (I don't actually) believe it. I thought the US was the "land of the free"?.. and this seems worst than 19th ct slavery.
I see, having sex while your calling your mom (and your partner is calling his one) and thinking what's left in the fridge (while he's thinking how to fix the vacuum cleaner)... and only on Sundays. That's living.
9-5 is usual but then since Christmas me and my team pull in 60+ hours/week each on a bid scheme. All part of the course when you’re chasing work. Hopefully I’ll keep my job, win the scheme and I can treat the wife to a nice holiday.
The longest day so far is to start at 7:30am and get to bed for 5am . Time to fit in a lunch time run and various meal breaks. No overtime and i take the work home after 7pm.
For me the worst part of the situation is when the firm questions your commitment to the company or to 'good design' if you are not there all the time. If you are asking me to work for free in the name of good design, doesn't that show a lack of commitment to your employees? Ill stay late for the project, but pay me for it - otherwise they get a better project at a higher profit margin, and I just get tired.
Mar 9, 09 12:54 pm ·
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Working late nights professionally
this thread:
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=86347_0_42_0_C
on the topic on late-nights at school made me wonder what late-nights are like in the real professional world.
i always accepted late nights as this absurd thing you have to get through during school (i.e. when you're not supposed to have a normal life) but that's not a part of a real world. i always thought to myself, how could any real adult tolerate these same conditions that are almost causing me to break during just my 3 year stint in grad school?
but then i spent a summer working for a starchitect. and the bare minimum we would ever work was like 8am-8pm, which is already a damn long day. usually, though, we were there til 9 or 10, often on saturdays and sunday, and frequently even until the early morning hours. wtf?
then i worked at a small boutique high-design firm where the hours were much more tolerable (830-630 most days, occasionally stay much later or come on saturday if there's a big deadline), but that was still a damn lot of work and left me with very little free time.
so... how common is the practice of absurd hours in the working world? i really value my free time - i wanna sleep enough, i wanna exercise, i wanna have relationships, maybe get me some kids and be a good parent to them... but i also wanna be an awesome architect and not be some underling at a boring firm.
8.30 to 6.30 is too long?
10.00 to 6.00 was the shortest i have ever worked but the office that did that was in down-cycle. for me personally 8 to 10 hours is reasonable.
the idea that no one else works hard and long hours is a fallacy. most of my family, who work in hog plants, hospitals and other reglar stuff work damn hard for little to good money. no one is getting rich. so i don't ever complain that i am working too much because at least i can move when ever i want...
my brother on the other hand is a professional street performer and earns good money usually working about 10-20 hours a week. maybe you should try that...
Architectural practice rarely is an 8-hour day / 40-hour week world. However, in our community I know of very few, if any, firms where the employees average more than 10-20% overtime over the course of a year. Sure, in some cases you may pull some late nights or long weekends to meet a deadline. But, generally there are many, many 40-42 hours weeks between such episodes.
Having said that, the industry is rife with stories of routine 70-80 hours weeks. I'd say that any firm that operates that way as a norm is either a) poorly managed, or b) deliberately taking advantage of its staff.
If you ask around before accepting a job, you generally can determine which firms in a community have the reputation of being a sweat shop. You still may find it worthwhile to accept a position in such a firm because of the experience you might gain, but at least you will know the firm's culture before the fact.
You should read a book titled "Soul murder and Slavery" by Nell Irvan Painter. It's a book the outlines how chattel slavery, employment and expectations of the antebellum had invented processes by which slave owners (and future employers) can break humans. "Soul murder" is essentially the practice turning people into products through a systematic approach of humiliation, domination and subjugation until the subordinate is rendered into a person with no concept of self-worth.
There's also the interesting book titled "Student as Nigger." This one basically says that public education and modern university are more akin to work camps than they are places of enrichment-- several factors like political correctness, increasing life expectancies, a broken pension system and other factors... students are being transformed into "niggers" as younger people are not respected as peers, their education is geared towards them not addressing anything with a highly political nature (like "crime prevention through environmental design" is essentially jim crow laws with the word "nigger" removed) and higher demands on minimum education requirements is isolating a generation into "niggerdom" so that generations can ride out the rest of their lives without having to pay for it [hello. 30-year bonds!].
Another good one is "Soul by Soul: Life Inside an Antebellum Slave Market." This one is a lot more in depth and like the other two books explains that how the system of slavery has irreversibly damaged the culture of America. The Age of Expansion was essentially built on the backs of slaves and how most all modern employment and living practices are an extension of chattel slavery. Most people who were of any success at the time and others wishing to be successful created a dogma on how to treat, buy, evaluate and related to "employees."
The point of this is most 20th century employment practices are continuations of this and just because the Civil Rights Act was passed or slavery was outlawed do not mean these cultural phenomenon just instantly vaporize over night.
in my experience, your hours increase sharply the moment you get promoted to the point when you no longer qualify for overtime ;-P
I mean, seriously, I'm looking around the floor right now (7pm Friday) and the only people still here are those of us who are above the overtime pay threshhold.
i think that this is just a silly question. let's phrase it a different way.
should i work for free?
or how about for 1/2 price?
the answer is NO!! why do we put up with this?
your employers have accepted a job expecting a certain amount of hours to be worked (expense) so request a certain fee. we are promoting bad management by working constant overtime.
EXCEPTION:
if it is your fault (i.e. too much archinect or just screwing around) then you ethically should work it. occassionally, to finish a project or for a deadline you could.
Urbanist - I have not qualified for overtime since the moment i stepped out of school. Most firms pay salary for interns up here in the DC area, even though the official policy of the AIA is that interns should be paid hourly and overtime.
Every firm I worked in subtracts vacation time or pay if you work under 40 hours a week, but only one actually payed you more for working overtime (of course it wasn't time and a half and it came at the end of the year, but still). One firm i worked in required that you work an average of 8 hours a day during the week per month (if the month broke mid week, each part of the week needed to average 8+ hours a day otherwise you lost vacation). I have worked in one firm where you got a severe talking to if you were putting in less than 50 hours a week, we were told that it showed lack of commitment to the firm.
All told, still, I rarely worked past 7 or 9 unless by choice (making up time or meeting a deadline) whereas I have friends who routinely work from 8 to midnight and weekends. OF course they are only doing this when they are on deadline, but it just so happens that they are ALWAYS on deadline.
I just wish that there was a culture of comp time in architecture firms. I wouldn't mind working late and crazy hours (i wouldn't mind working at all right now) if I got something back for my sacrifice later, besides continued employment.
i have always been paid overtime. 1.5 times wage for work after 7pm. 2 times wage for work after 11 pm. similar for weekends and holidays.
i dont mind working overtime if i'm in the shop.... but behind a computer only 8-9 hours..after that my eyes go bad
OF, 'GIVE' works, also
This is something that I find disturbing as an undergrad student... I can't believe I"ll be expected to work 20-40 hours of overtime every week at any halfway decent firm, FOR NO COMPENSATION.
Seriously, if I was compensated I wouldn't mind.... >_<
jk3hl--
Then DON'T. The only reason the profession is like this is because so many people are willing to do exactly what you said: work for no compensation. If we stand up for ourselves then we will not have this issue.
Nobody ever looks back and says "I wish I'd worked more overtime."
I was at a job a few years ago, where I'd been for 3 years without a pay raise, and I was asked to take a pay cut. Meanwhile, my work had brought in several awards and business was booming.
The reason? My boss wanted new ($4000) rims for his SUV, and his wife wanted to put a mansard roof on their house. They didn't tell me this, but that's what it amounted to. That time solidified in my mind that I'm not breaking my ass for somebody else, because chances are they wouldn't do the same for me.
Wow, jump, you are lucky! Is that Japanese culture?
I've worked one job in 7 where I was paid overtime; and it was only offered above 43 hours (I think -- can't remember) and (luckily) I never hit that threshold. The others either paid straight hourly (my favorite, and only 1 job) or straight salary with no overtime (sucks).
I completely agree that the firm will take advantage of whatever you offer them (in a way), but the problem with the "stand up for yourself and don't take the job!" fallacy is that this is really hard to do when you're actually out there interviewing. Realistically, unless you have savings to burn while trying to garner simultaneous multiple competing offers from various firms you've interviewed with, you're pretty much stuck with what the going set-up is. Sure, you can ask for overtime payment, but if the firm isn't offering it to anyone else, they won't offer it to you (because everyone else would want it). They may counter by giving you a little salary bump in order to hire you, but then you will be pressured to put in the (unpaid) overtime that justifies the extra salary you asked for. Which is fine (you do technically owe them extra time now), but it's very psychologically stressful and makes it very hard for you to draw the line at a certain amount of hours.
I've thought about the whole thing a lot and I would love a real, honest, and thoughtful discussion about how we might begin to address these sorts of issues in the real world of architecture employment.
A lot of times these kinds of discussions crop up here on archinect and people just start knee-jerking either the "that's the way it is, shut up and live with it!" reactionary-ism OR they do the opposite: "we should get paid what we work, don't stand for being dicked over!" without actually thinking through how that "stand up" might work.
I'd be interested for actual thoughtful reflection on this issue...
: I can't believe I"ll be expected to work 20-40 hours of overtime every week at any halfway decent firm, FOR NO COMPENSATION.
Spoken like someone with little or no office experience. If you're still in school and approaching graduation, in this particular economy I expect you'll be happy to accept any job offered.
I don't really mean to be snarky. But, what you're forgetting is that at "any halfway decent firm" year-end bonuses more than make up for the 'unpaid' extra hours you put in.
Admittedly, this becomes a leap of faith. But, if you persist in embracing an 'hourly' mentality, you'll be viewed as blue-color labor instead of a professional.
As one rises in the profession, the risk reward ratio evolves. The higher you go, the more your total comp. depends on year-end bonuses.
Keep thinking hourly and the longer you'll stay a CAD monkey.
That extra 10-20 hours of work per week gets you laid off last. All the kids who jockeyed for their salaries and left at 5pm or else they would jump ships are now in their liferaft or waiting in line for one.
That's what it gets you.
Yes overtime is to be expected. Feds have fined several large architecture firms for not paying overtime to salaried employees who aren't in true managerial positions. Employment law is very clear; you must be an exempt employee with distinct management responsibilities to be excluded from overtime pay for overtime hours. Many firms skirt the law.
I've worked at a low hourly rate for an entry-level position with overtime pay, and at a salary that nonetheless received overtime pay at midlevel. Some firms only pay fixed salaries, expect all to put significant overtime hours in. Yes, some people leave at 5 pm unless specifically forced to stay, and some of those are shirkers and some have other responsibilities (family, kids, sick parents, etc.) in their life. Ever wonder where all the architects over age 40, 50, or 60 are? Being an architect doesn't mean your life is devoted to the "altar of architecture.
Many years ago, I worked for a studio head who insisted a routine of 9 am to 10 pm day, 1 hr for lunch and 1 hr for dinner, Sat hours of 10 am to 3 pm, regardless whether there was a deadline, regardless whether fee could support amount of needless man-hour charges. Often people sat at their work-stations and played, sitting nights in the un-airconditioned space. A tremendous waste of time and money. Most of us weren't associates, so we still qualified for overtime pay. Eventually this studio head was demoted. He was a nice guy, but clueless. The large corporate firm is well-known for its ruthless partner politics and demanding work environment. There are few middle-aged people there beyond partners.
Architecture is not just monastic time devotion, cool wardrobe, and buzz words; it's also a profit-driven business. (Unless the principals are independently wealthy, and/or have several benefactors in the background.)
My first studio experience, at entry-level, the studio head maintained an even keel over manpower hour expectations. We made the deadlines without long hours, international client was happy, project moved forward, etc. It was a content large Chicago office of a national firm, doing decent work.
Also note that overtime now won't be compensated with a bonus at year's end if you're laid off before December. For a high-percentage of presently-employed architects, lay-offs are eminent even if you're consistently the last person out the door. Face time is not the ultimate factor in determining pecking order, or value to office.
More valued is the ability to take responsibility, do accurate and complete work in a timely manner, and ability to provide leadership to the project in a meaningful manner.
: "More valued is the ability to take responsibility, do accurate and complete work in a timely manner, and ability to provide leadership to the project in a meaningful manner.
Amen to that! Our firm pays these people very, very well. And they earn every penny.
It's not about the hours - it's about the results. Focus on results and appropriate compensation will follow.
if you want to change the world (or at least pay policies) start your own firm / buy into one.
I worked at a comp time flex time job ( after 40 it was straight time). I worked for "salary" had heated discussion about why I could not leave at 40 hours.
I have been running our firm for 10 years and unless you have more experience than I do, (15 years) you get time and one half.
11:59 on a saturday night: leaving work now!
Do other people actually agree with Chicago that "results" are more important to your respectable firms than working overtime?
I mean, don't they all think that overtime = results? If they see you're not working as -much- they'll assume you're not working as -well- or as -hard-.
Again, I'm just an undergrad with one internship under my belt, I worked for a larger firm ~150 people in Boston. I guess I would like to spend time with friends and family on weekdays, or whatever, while still advancing my career as a trendy, professional architect.
I guess I'll have to train myself to enjoy 10 hour workdays?
i look at it as 'how many changes are needed and are they being charged/time adjusted'
in the small place i work, i can have a project dd/cd and parts ready for the cnc within a day or 2 (talking about exhibits).... but then for some reason theres another change which makes me have to remodel the unit and remake the sections/etc and the parts..... then theres another change...wtf
just finalizes that damn design already and give it to me..... it just pisses me off more when it's the little pittly b.s. that affects everything....
i can see maybe changing finishes...but when things change in size/shape/form then your back to square 1
jk3hl , a 10 hour work day is not very long.
jk3hl - to be sure, there are firms that only value the number of hours you work. IMO, those sweat shops tend to be poorly managed firms and rarely represent good career stepping stones.
Other firms focus more on what value each individual adds and don't measure contribution solely by quantity of hours. My experience suggests that this sort of firm predominates. However, some of these firms also work long hours - but compensation tends to parallel the effort, either through OT pay or generous bonuses.
Even in firms that work long hours, don't believe the managers fail to understand who's productive and who's not. It's easy to make that distinction.
Finally, I beleve firms that expect extremely long hours for minimal pay don't value their employees or their work. Don't buy into this corrupt equation - no matter the fame of the firm or the person in charge.
If you're an entry-level or mid-level person who thinks that willingness to happily do overtime is the key to job security and good reviews, you're wrong. Senior-level people are accutely aware of who is a slow-production person, or a "social butterfly" or slacker who regularly wastes time, or someone who needs to be spoon-fed each redlined work assignment. Firms have tolerated weaker architectural staff when it was difficult to staff-up. Now, hardworking people, backed by legitimate references from other firms' senior-level people, are readily available.
I'm not against all-nighters and overtime per se. But question the culture of "all-nighters", knowing that there is significant noticable time mismanagement occurring in some architectural firms. If you personally fit in categories of slow, slacker, or "spoon-feeder", firms won't look at your overtime hours tally to save you now that firms are in precarious positions.
Some firms pay overtime to entry-level and mid-level personnel, which creates significant additional labor cost to firms that comes out of base fee. Few clients will compensate an architectural firm for overtime expenses, even if overtime requirement was somehow caused by client changes. Some entry-level people use overtime pay to significantly increase their take-home pay by "working" overtime EVEN IF THERE IS NO DEADLINE PUSH, if management isn't closely monitoring situation. Again, that labor cost is charged against fees collected, reducing legitimate profitability. Some small firms are so poorly managed that principals don't have clear idea of their total labor costs related to fees collected until their annual financial statements are prepared.
Few firms bill on an hourly rate; most firm fees are based on percentage of construction cost, or fixed fee calculated at project start based upon man-hour projections. A studio's "all-nighter" group-think mentality can reduce a firm's legitimate fee calculation into a money-loser project.
First, I find people are often unrealistic about how much they ACTUALLY work. But really, a guy would regularly show up after 9, take a 3-4 hour lunch, and often left at 4. I'll give him some nights and weekends, but M-F 8-5, he was barely hitting 20 hours and, yes, dropping a LOT of balls in the meantime. Yet he insisted he worked 60+ hours a week. I don't know, add 'em up, dude. Too bad he was the boss, so no one could point it out that it doesn't add up.
Friends in other professions routinely tell me they work 70-80 or even 100 hours a week too. My brother, the doctor... but then he tells me how he went golfing on Thursday, hit happy hour on Friday, saw a movie and went out with friends for dinner on Saturday, went to church, etc. Plus his commute is 4 hours a day for 2 days a week, and 1 hour the other days. And you're still working 10-12+ hours a day? How long is a week in your worlds?
How long is a week?
Yeah it is now 11:00 AM CST and I have been doing accounting at the office since 7:00! I now get to work on the website and possibly do some red marks. So about 4 hours on Sunday and 9 hours m-f.
100 hours a week, not working on Sunday, is 16 hours per day... if you sleep at least 7 hours, there's only 1 hour left each day for having breakfast, lunch, dinner, walking a bit, and a couple of minutes to surf the net, watch TV or take out the dog... this is just ridiculous. I can't (I don't actually) believe it. I thought the US was the "land of the free"?.. and this seems worst than 19th ct slavery.
not to mention showering, grocery shopping, cleaning your house, mowing your lawn, calling your mom, having sex, you get my point.
I see, having sex while your calling your mom (and your partner is calling his one) and thinking what's left in the fridge (while he's thinking how to fix the vacuum cleaner)... and only on Sundays. That's living.
9-5 is usual but then since Christmas me and my team pull in 60+ hours/week each on a bid scheme. All part of the course when you’re chasing work. Hopefully I’ll keep my job, win the scheme and I can treat the wife to a nice holiday.
The longest day so far is to start at 7:30am and get to bed for 5am . Time to fit in a lunch time run and various meal breaks. No overtime and i take the work home after 7pm.
I should also say that before we had our flexitime quashed with the arrival of the credit crunch, i would manage Thu & Fri as 10am-4pm.
Those were the days.
jk3hl,
Turn, and run. Run like your life depended on it. Don't look back, don't waver. Just run. Run!
Otherwise you're going to be miserable.
Run from...? Or to...?
For me the worst part of the situation is when the firm questions your commitment to the company or to 'good design' if you are not there all the time. If you are asking me to work for free in the name of good design, doesn't that show a lack of commitment to your employees? Ill stay late for the project, but pay me for it - otherwise they get a better project at a higher profit margin, and I just get tired.
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