Spathene, you have two schools in Canada which offer M.arch to those without bachelors in architecture (UofT and UBC). These are 3 year thesis programs. My suggestion is that if you really want to become a licensed architect, then look into switching degrees now into a 4year bachelors at McGill. Perhaps they can give credit for some of the P.eng courses from Concordia. This route will be shorter and also, since tuition is virtually FREE in Quebec if you are a resident (the monthly payment on my Ontario loans is higher than a year's tuition in Quebec), look into completing your M.Arch where you will take in less student debt.

Your entrance salary will be based on what relevant skills you have and your proficiency with construction details, design/modelling, drafting software as well as project management skills. This is not something that a few months of low-level copy-making, coffee fetching coop jobs will give you. Besides that, any office will have external structural consultants who bare this responsibility. It may be advantageous to understand structure (and all accredited Canadian schools cover these basics rather well), no one would produce in-house structural drawings with an fresh M.arch graduate.

Another commentator informed me that these schools also accept non-arch bachelor applicants into their masters programs: U of Calgary, U of Manitoba, Carleton, and Dalhousie

Just make sure you understand the reciprocity of your chosen undergrad degree because most schools toss a boat load of qualifying courses to applicants in order to fulfil accreditation requirements.

Thank you for your answer.

I am currently considering doing my BEng and then going to UBC to get my MArch. I have read a little bit about the MArch program at UBC, how it's growing, and how it's actually a quite decent program. Their mentorship program also looks awesome (not sure if there is the same kind of program for other canadian universities). But the reason #1 why I would choose UBC is the city itself. I have visited Vancouver twice and fell in love with it twice. I know, I know, it's a more expensive city than Montreal, but one cannot ignore the fact that it is a beautiful city. I can see myself working there after graduating.

I actually applied to McGill for the 4-year BArch but I got rejected because my R-Score was too low (it was 28, but the program requires a minimum of ~30). The R-Score is basically the grading system used in Quebec for CEGEP. I am afraid that if I apply again, they would simply reject me again because of my low R-Score (it would be the same R-Score as last year, when I applied).

However, even if I was accepted to McGill, I would have to do 4 + 2  = 6 years before getting my MArch degree (perhaps less if my Concordia BEng classes give me credits). On the other hand, if I do my BEng (4 years) AND a MArch (~3 years), it would take me about 7 years to get my degree. But I would have a BEng AND a MArch... which in my head, can be an advantage. 

Anyway, I have to run to class now, I'll be back here later!

Spathene, from my experience applying to offices while in school and after graduation, I've found the story behind my portfolio to be more important than the letters attached to the end of my name. Although I expect many might have different experiences, before deciding on the dual degree consider the breath of the work you may produce in a P.eng program versus what a full architecture degree will give you.

I had a piss-poor highschool average once as well and applied to architecture school after 1 year of art-history. I left both undergrad and master programs in the top tier of my classe. Highschool means very little. Best of luck.

The thing is that I feel like a BArch is more focused on history, arts and interpretation whereas a BEng in civil engineering is more focused on concrete knowledge, how building are able to "stand up", structural analysis, etc. I already have a good view of the kind of architecture that I would like to be involved with. I am a fan of complex and technically challenged structures/buildings that have an "oh, wow" factor associated with them, the "oh, wow, how is this thing even standing up" factor. Structures that distinguish themselves from "artsy structures" by their challenging design. I know, I'm dreaming, but dreaming is good.

This explains why I am currently studying civil engineering (structural option) and planning on studying architecture afterwards. I want to be able to be able to design bridges in an artful yet realistic way. I don't want to be the guy that works on a project that would collapse outside of the studio, in the real world. I want to be the guy that challenges the way structural elements are traditionally designed in an artistic manner. I want my specialty in the architecture field to be related to structurally-complex projects, not "just" projects that only "look nice" and/or "have a strong interpretation of the needs"...

I know that a professional engineering program = lots of work. I am aware of that, but I am also willing to do my best in order to be able to say, one day, "I'm an architect, and a structural engineer."

So back to the initial question: would you recommend me to wait and work as a structural engineer between finishing my BEng and starting my MArch or not?

Stephane (now that I notice you're signature at the top), I admire your ambition, but don't get too far ahead of yourself. For one thing, getting a license in Canada is a long process. Following your M.Arch, there is anywhere between 3 to 6+ years before most can accumulate enough experience hours just to qualify for licensing. Don't forget the accreditation exams which are only offered once each year and you're facing a long road. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's important to touch back to reality once in a while.

I think you may have your understanding of architecture confused with glossy magazines. Projects for the sake of projects are very, very rare in our profession. The majority of your time in practice is split between construction drawings and details with a bit of time up front for design. Schools, depending on which one, vary in their balance of technique and abstraction, but generally, if you are a competent student, you can seek what best interests you through the design studios. So, contrary to what our ADD media outlets would make us believe, no one is designing buildings that fall down once they leave the concept stage. Ideas are separate from construction drawings.

Either way, I've met people who've done the P.eng then March (some with PHDs) and most turn out fine. If you have the mind-set geared towards the more practical then a foundation is engineering is good, but... depending on how comfortable you are, it may be difficult to separate the very rigorous field of physics and the very abstract (and subjective) world of architectural design.

You are but a few weeks into this but if any of this makes sense to you, the best advice is to get into the working world immediately between semesters. Don't wait for coop. Second, and more importantly, if you want to push into a M.arch, take a serious look at mixed visual arts. Something like sculpture, painting, model-making, carpentry, etc will be a giant asset once you're ready. In terms of working between schools... given that your tuition is a fraction of other places, you may not need to financially. If you've worked in offices during your first few years, I would jump straight into masters. I had 1 week of break between my undergraduate degree and the start of my masters thesis. Looking back, any longer would have been time waster. 8-)

p.s. with the higher than average corruption in the Quebec construction industry, we may need more bridges soon rather than later.

p.p.s. If you want to be a licensed P.eng or architect in Quebec, better work on that french proficiency test. I am pretty sure it's required.

Non Sequitur (I just Googled your username, that's a pretty original one!), thank you for your answer, once again. You do not know how helpful this is to me. I really appreciate. Oh, and by the way, "Spathene" is simply an anagram of "Stephane" that I use here and there on the Internet.

You are completely right. I am quite a dreamy person, to be honest, but at least I am aware that I dream a lot. What do you want me to say, I'm a dreamer! Now, even if I've put down on paper my ambitions and the type of architecture designs that I would like to work on, I know that realistically, it would be difficult for me to get there (designing the kind of structures that I'd like to design) in my first, say, 20 years of experience in the field. I know. It's clear to me that designing cool structures would be sweet. But in the real world, I would realistically see myself being more of a planner/managing/supervising architect (after a few years of low-level designing, of course). I'm a team leader, I love to be the head of a team, I am good at it (in my opinion), I have some experiences that proves that I can be a great leader... Bref, in the future, it is clear to me that I want to be able to manage a project, a team, etc.

During the third and/or fourth years of my BEng, I need to choose between the "Infrastructure" or "Construction Engineering and Management" options. I would love to do both, but only one can be chosen (obviously). Life is too short and I simply can't just everything that I like! I will probably choose the Management option as I believe that it would reflect the kind of everyday job that I would actually enjoy doing, more than in-depth structural analysis/design.

I'm also aware of the big "mindset gap" between engineering and architecture. I've been warned about this sooo many times, actually. The truth is that, honestly, I don't find it to be that difficult to "manage" both art and engineering "in my head". I'm naturally attracted to art: I've been playing the piano since the age of five years old, I've always excelled in art classes from high school up until my last CEGEP semester, I like to doodle, I like to observe and appreciate different types of art... It's clear to me that art means something important to me. And at the same time, I've followed the typical path to become an engineer in Quebec. I don't think that my BEng would limit my creativity, or at least I really hope that it wouldn't. We'll see, I guess.

Wait, so you're telling me that I should work in between semesters? I would love to, but... how would that be even possible? I have full academic semesters during fall, winter and summer for the next four years (because of the co-op work terms that push study terms to the summer)... The only breaks that I get are few weeks in between semesters. Do you recommend me to find a job/internship/apprenticeship for those time intervals?

As for mixed visual arts: absolutely. During CEGEP, I met a wonderful art professor that helped me integrate two art classes to my pure and applied sciences course sequence. She is especially known for one thing at Marianopolis College: helping prospective architecture students prepare a great portfolio (usually for McGill) that expresses the creativity and thinking that the architecture admissions people look for. She also works part-time at Concordia. I recently contacted her. She was happy to hear about me and she told me that absolutely, it would be possible for me to prepare an architecture portfolio during my studies at Concordia. That will be key for getting accepted for a MArch (hopefully at UBC!) And yes, you are right, it makes sense to start right away a MArch, right after obtaining a bachelor.

My first language is French (hopefully it doesn't show too much in my writing!) so a proficiency test would not be a problem at all.

Thank you again so much for your help. I'm curious... are you an architect that practices in Quebec?

Stephane, glad I could help. You seem to have a good handle on things, just don't forget to enjoy the ride. I am one of 6 Ontario-licensed architect in my office (and the only french-speaking one, first language too) and we practice in Ottawa. I've been mostly working on large office and assembly projects.

Different schools offer different forms of coop/semester combos, I assumed Concordia had one where they do coop after 3rd and the summer after, my bad, its not really possible to work anything but odd part-time jobs when you've got school year-round. I know that feeling, I did 7 (fall-winter-summer) semesters in graduate school immediately after my last 2 semesters of 4th year arch. I was lucky enough to land a decent spot teaching drawing classes and design studios to the fresh minds entering first year.

Anyways, best of luck. There is a decent growing market in Canada for project management engineers. We've got a few fresh out of college on some projects and looks like they are well trained. As for the P.eng vs Arch mind-set... it's mostly hype and manufactured by the "we are better than X" mentality when two intellectual disciplines are forced to work together. I despised this way of thinking while in school as I believe blaming another trade/consultant for your own incompetence to be unprofessional.

I would keep strong bonds with that art professor, I had something similar to that which helped me greatly in developing my portfolio. I still keep contact with her to this day.

Sorry for the late reply,

Yeah, I have an objective and I know the steps to get there. At the same time, I feel like "enjoying the ride", as you say, might make me change idea as to what I want to do as a career. I am 19 years old, but already so many things interest me in this industry (structural engineering, architecture, project management, project developer and real estate investment) and I have the feeling that I will do a little bit of everything during my career. How could I do otherwise if I like all of those aspects of the construction industry!?

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

Speaking of co-op, do you think that the office you work in hires engineer interns?

An yes, will definitely keep strong bonds with that art professor!

Have a good day,

Stéphane

Stephane, although this was appear harsh, no, we would not take an engineering COOP student. We, like a great deal of architectural offices, hire engineering firms to do what they do on a project-per-project basis. Granted small offices might do their M, E & S in house, the scale of some projects require external engineering teams with their own project managers.

I do a great deal of coordination with our engineering consultants and more than twice per day I have to hold their hand and guide them. Just yesterday we discovered our Mech guys decided to drop a 500mm DIA drain pipe through our main lobby therefore compromising the design (and required ceiling height) of the 1st floor concourse in a very public building. Problem #278 I believe.

All this to say, if you follow into engineering, make sure you remain competent because competence is a rare gift. All the best.

One of the first things lost in a calamity is objectivity.

Civil engineers may conduct analysis of the original design specifications, the soil and foundation, moisture levels, construction materials, wastewater, and the influence of external and/or natural forces.