Imperial is more percise because fractions are more accurate than rounding off to the tenth, hundreth etc. I know we dont have to be that tolerant but, just saying, 1/3 vs. .333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
actually dual is where it is at. Imperial is good for measuring long distances (miles vs. kilometres) but metric does allow for easy ratios that can be scaled appropriately millimetres and centimetres etc.
Metric ain't perfect - especially when most people when asked what a decimetre is get it wrong
^that is the biggest problem with metric IMO, no good unit between centimeters and meters although i would still rather use it than imperial. It is pretty cool to see CDs for big projects with all the dimensions in mm.
architechnophilia - what is the advantage in measuring distances in miles rather than kilometres? Apart from comfort? 1.6km = 1 miles. Its not like 3 miles = 473.6km
true metric is great when you can buy building materials in metric like where i'm working now - china...nice 1200x2400 sheets of plywood, 600x1200 ceiling tiles...etc...
but back home in canada, it's a friggin nightmare...we're officially metric, but almost all of our building materials are made by companies from guess where...so we have the joy of doing drawings with 610 x 1209 panels of stuff, and the always memorable 38 x 89 sticks of wood...
can't wait to get back and start working on buildings with 3048 high ceilings again...
sfunny spaceman spiff. here in japan we do it all in metric too, but the legacy system is based on tatami module, which corresponds closely by some weird quirk of history with imperial system...and the carpenters here (who do timber frame not north american stick-built ) all still think in that system. so standard pitch is 900 x 1800, or if we are working on project with lots of wood 909 x 1818. substructure gets pitched 303mm if wood, 300 if steel stud.
i like the dividing into 3 thing, so works for me.
i am canadian too, btw. remember switching over to metric in grade school, but for years always had to translate the highway signs into imperial cuz our cars still measured speed in miles and we never sold em.
"Proponents of the metric system in the U.S. often claim that "the United States, Liberia, and Burma (or Myanmar) are the only countries that have not adopted the metric system." This statement is not correct with respect to the U.S., and probably it isn't correct with respect to Liberia and Burma, either. The U.S. adopted the metric system in 1866. What the U.S. has failed to do is to restrict or prohibit the use of traditional units in areas touching the ordinary citizen: construction, real estate transactions, retail trade, and education. The U.S. has not made the crucial transition from "soft metric" to "hard metric", so that "1 pint (473 mL)" becomes "500 mL (1.057 pint)", with the traditional equivalent fading into smaller type sizes and finally disappearing."
The hardest part to swallow will be the billion dollar stimulus plan needed to teach all the real estate agents what a 180 sq meter house is and how big a .1 hectacre lot is. that in itself is reason enough not to switch.
spaceman - I've never done a commerical structure in Canada, but the home builders all talk in feet and inches. A walk around my local lumber yard here in the states has piles upon piles of Canadian milled softwood in imperial standard 2x and 4'-0" x 8'-0" dimensions. From what I've seen Canada hasn't fully gone to a hard change to SI units across the board.
And over in the UK they measure speed in miles per hour and draught beer in poured into pints so neither have they.
My favorite switch to metric story is that of the Gimli Glider. There's a significant difference between a pound of jet A vs. a kilogram.
I don't really care if we use imperial or SI units. Imperial does have some not anthropogenic qualities. A foot is much easier to estimate than a centimeter or meter. I also like dealing in fractions of an inch over millimeteres, just personal preference when doing my own construction. That said, it's just numbers and anyone should be able to adapt with time.
The US doesn't use Imperial Units. We use a mix of SI and US Customary Units. The US Customary system is based on the system the British used at the time of the revolution. The contemporary Imperial System is something different. Also, wood framers pretty much everywhere in the world, including India and Australia, basically thing in British units. Wood still comes in 4x8's and 2x4s in India, Pakistan, New Zealand, etc. We don't have to worry about all those rediculous conversions here.
Aquapura you heard about the Gimli Glider from me son.
what's the point of having only one universal system? that sounds like an engineer's wet dream to me. as an architect, i actually think that we need more systems. the more gray areas that exist then the more that we can exert our intellectual superiority.
i was told that the great pyramid used several measure system to build it. that include the imperial system which is 1 foot = the size of the foot. it certainly has the material aspect to it.
diabase I only mentioned the mile/kilometer because of the difficulty it is to measure 1000m to calculate it. A mile becomes a baseless dimension - which save the engineers we sometimes needs.
I suspect the Caribbean is much like Canada (esp Jamaica) - we try to use metric but everything we buy comes from the US and is in feet/inches and 1/16s
I spent a semester in Germany, and my studio project then and my thesis design, which was in Germany had to be done in metric units. It was so much nicer once I got used to it, and I have a great metric rule to show for it. Unfortunately, my experience with the metric system ended badly on my return home: the weight limit for my luggage was 20kg, and it weighed 22kg, which cost me 180euros!
Here in the UK, there are still latent imperial measurements. I have no idea how far a kilometre is in the real world, but I do know what a mile 'feels' like. Our speed signs are still in 'miles per hour' and, talking of which, time isn't metric either. Is there not something about imperial measurements recalling ancient, anthropomorphical ways to measure things, i.e. a 'foot'? This is why the tatami unit referred to above is perhaps not so coincidentally related to imperial units. A British brick is 65mm high x 102.5mm wide x 215mm long but, really, it's 'the largest block that can be comfortably clutched in one's hand'. We still have both metric and imperial sized doors on the market. The height, width and weight of people doesn't vary in decimal increments. An imperial-measure ruler I find more pleasing to the visual intuition than a metric one.
Sure, metric is easier to calculate multiples with. But, for architecture, perhaps struggling along with a measurement system that vaguely reminds one of a real human body rather than a scale-less abstract system is no bad thing.
And another thing: if you Americans all go metric, does that mean that everything in America will get a little smaller, more in line with, say, European-size hotel rooms? ;-p
having worked in India before here in the US, let me point out that, in India we do not follow Metric for everything. For example, for smaller interiors, and even smaller projects (im talking lengths lesser than 100'), a lot of people use imperial. Ditto for interior fit-outs etc. A lot of the smaller contractors, carpenters do not even understand metric.
For masterplanning projects, we use metric in India, as well as in our office in the US (when the projects are non-US).
I prefer imperial because it fits ME well. The distance from my outstretched arm to my centerline is exactly 1 yard. And it is nice to weigh only 13 stone.
j
An increasing number of construction products are metric. In the buildings I'm working on, the curtainwall, sinks, cabinets, stone slabs, terracotta tiles, etc. are all "hard" metric. So now I have to deal with two systems of measurement. My Russian coworker, the German curtainwall engineers, and the Chinese plumbers all think in metric.
"Imperial" vs "USC" and "metric" vs "SI": let's not get too caught up in semantics. Let's just dimension our plans in mm and make our lives easier. Well at least our work lives.
Conversion should start where the savings are greatest. Since scientists already use metric that leaves the AEC industry. It should also be legal to sell products with metric-only labelling. I don't care if bars continue to sell beer in pints, although I would prefer an Imperial pint.
yep, have noticed more metric construction supplies recently too...eg. armstrong now has most of their products designated with an M after the product code to get the metric sized version...
jump - i remember getting those info packs on the metric system in grade school when the switch was made...took me years to figure what the whole deal was about...it seems the multiples of 3 system works well for you, just like the typical 9 meter grids for commercial construction...unfortunately in china, they like to downsize the building grids to save cost...smaller cars, smaller people i guess, resulting in some pretty tight turns in the underground parkades...8450mm seems to ring a bell, but it's been a couple years since i drew one up...try dividing that into 3's!
aquapura - you're right, everyone on-site at a stick frame housing project still refers to everything in imperial...as the materials are all milled to suit north american market demands...but i think most jurisdictions have made it mandatory now to submit permit drawings in metric, hence the nastiness of doing said drawings...i had the incremental measurements memorized at some point earlier in my career and simply knew to draw things 610 wide or 914 high for example, otherwise i'm sure i would have had an "accident" or two on my site visits...
change is slow, maybe someone can get obama on top of it...that college football playoff system can wait a little longer...
bossman, you sure you're the one that told me about the gimli glider? I've got family in Edmonton that probably mentioned it to me before archinect even existed. Still it's an amazing story.
As somebody who grew up on the metric system in Canada, oddly enough I can't wrap my head around the metric system. I use inches and feet and miles in my everyday life, and when I'm doing rough measurements for anything design-related, it's all in feet. My brain can wrap around the idea of a 5' length better than the equivalent in metres (whatever that would be, I have no clue).
I think I learned inches and feet from my father before learning measurements in school, and that's why it's stuck with me.
Metric in the US: Down with Imperialism!
My fellow Americans,
Let's finish the American Revolution and abolish the Imperial system. We all know the metric system is easier, more logical, and less prone to error.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42790820838
Conversion is easy. If Australia and India can do it, so can we.
Have any Archinectors done a non-government metric project in the US? I would like to, but I'm not sure how contractors would respond.
Oops, I messed up the link: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42790820838
Hey, if the US converts, it will only be Liberia and Myanmar left!
i'll never understand how a supposedly civilised country like the US uses imperial.
But what will we call our quarter pounders with cheese?
Imperial is more percise because fractions are more accurate than rounding off to the tenth, hundreth etc. I know we dont have to be that tolerant but, just saying, 1/3 vs. .333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
I converted in 1989 but I'm waiting for the rest of you.
actually dual is where it is at. Imperial is good for measuring long distances (miles vs. kilometres) but metric does allow for easy ratios that can be scaled appropriately millimetres and centimetres etc.
Metric ain't perfect - especially when most people when asked what a decimetre is get it wrong
^that is the biggest problem with metric IMO, no good unit between centimeters and meters although i would still rather use it than imperial. It is pretty cool to see CDs for big projects with all the dimensions in mm.
All my metric rulers disappeared with my Mars probe. We're going metric in 1995 and there's nothing you can do about it!
architechnophilia - what is the advantage in measuring distances in miles rather than kilometres? Apart from comfort? 1.6km = 1 miles. Its not like 3 miles = 473.6km
will we have to talk with a british accent?
metric isn't british, it's everyone-but-american
just change already, you'll get used to it! i couldn't estimate a foot and eleven inches, but i can show you exactly how high 900mm is.
however the world still use the imperial system to brag about their size... 9 inch for white, 11inch for blacks.
true metric is great when you can buy building materials in metric like where i'm working now - china...nice 1200x2400 sheets of plywood, 600x1200 ceiling tiles...etc...
but back home in canada, it's a friggin nightmare...we're officially metric, but almost all of our building materials are made by companies from guess where...so we have the joy of doing drawings with 610 x 1209 panels of stuff, and the always memorable 38 x 89 sticks of wood...
can't wait to get back and start working on buildings with 3048 high ceilings again...
sfunny spaceman spiff. here in japan we do it all in metric too, but the legacy system is based on tatami module, which corresponds closely by some weird quirk of history with imperial system...and the carpenters here (who do timber frame not north american stick-built ) all still think in that system. so standard pitch is 900 x 1800, or if we are working on project with lots of wood 909 x 1818. substructure gets pitched 303mm if wood, 300 if steel stud.
i like the dividing into 3 thing, so works for me.
i am canadian too, btw. remember switching over to metric in grade school, but for years always had to translate the highway signs into imperial cuz our cars still measured speed in miles and we never sold em.
"Proponents of the metric system in the U.S. often claim that "the United States, Liberia, and Burma (or Myanmar) are the only countries that have not adopted the metric system." This statement is not correct with respect to the U.S., and probably it isn't correct with respect to Liberia and Burma, either. The U.S. adopted the metric system in 1866. What the U.S. has failed to do is to restrict or prohibit the use of traditional units in areas touching the ordinary citizen: construction, real estate transactions, retail trade, and education. The U.S. has not made the crucial transition from "soft metric" to "hard metric", so that "1 pint (473 mL)" becomes "500 mL (1.057 pint)", with the traditional equivalent fading into smaller type sizes and finally disappearing."
The hardest part to swallow will be the billion dollar stimulus plan needed to teach all the real estate agents what a 180 sq meter house is and how big a .1 hectacre lot is. that in itself is reason enough not to switch.
If i'm not mistaken regular builders in the UK still think in 4'x8'
spaceman - I've never done a commerical structure in Canada, but the home builders all talk in feet and inches. A walk around my local lumber yard here in the states has piles upon piles of Canadian milled softwood in imperial standard 2x and 4'-0" x 8'-0" dimensions. From what I've seen Canada hasn't fully gone to a hard change to SI units across the board.
And over in the UK they measure speed in miles per hour and draught beer in poured into pints so neither have they.
My favorite switch to metric story is that of the Gimli Glider. There's a significant difference between a pound of jet A vs. a kilogram.
I don't really care if we use imperial or SI units. Imperial does have some not anthropogenic qualities. A foot is much easier to estimate than a centimeter or meter. I also like dealing in fractions of an inch over millimeteres, just personal preference when doing my own construction. That said, it's just numbers and anyone should be able to adapt with time.
The US doesn't use Imperial Units. We use a mix of SI and US Customary Units. The US Customary system is based on the system the British used at the time of the revolution. The contemporary Imperial System is something different. Also, wood framers pretty much everywhere in the world, including India and Australia, basically thing in British units. Wood still comes in 4x8's and 2x4s in India, Pakistan, New Zealand, etc. We don't have to worry about all those rediculous conversions here.
Aquapura you heard about the Gimli Glider from me son.
wasn't the metric system invented for Napoleon?
what's the point of having only one universal system? that sounds like an engineer's wet dream to me. as an architect, i actually think that we need more systems. the more gray areas that exist then the more that we can exert our intellectual superiority.
i was told that the great pyramid used several measure system to build it. that include the imperial system which is 1 foot = the size of the foot. it certainly has the material aspect to it.
diabase I only mentioned the mile/kilometer because of the difficulty it is to measure 1000m to calculate it. A mile becomes a baseless dimension - which save the engineers we sometimes needs.
I suspect the Caribbean is much like Canada (esp Jamaica) - we try to use metric but everything we buy comes from the US and is in feet/inches and 1/16s
I spent a semester in Germany, and my studio project then and my thesis design, which was in Germany had to be done in metric units. It was so much nicer once I got used to it, and I have a great metric rule to show for it. Unfortunately, my experience with the metric system ended badly on my return home: the weight limit for my luggage was 20kg, and it weighed 22kg, which cost me 180euros!
puddles, you and i are on the same page. i completely agree.
as the intellectual voidoids who actually control the budget of our projects put them on hold or tell us how we should design them...
Here in the UK, there are still latent imperial measurements. I have no idea how far a kilometre is in the real world, but I do know what a mile 'feels' like. Our speed signs are still in 'miles per hour' and, talking of which, time isn't metric either. Is there not something about imperial measurements recalling ancient, anthropomorphical ways to measure things, i.e. a 'foot'? This is why the tatami unit referred to above is perhaps not so coincidentally related to imperial units. A British brick is 65mm high x 102.5mm wide x 215mm long but, really, it's 'the largest block that can be comfortably clutched in one's hand'. We still have both metric and imperial sized doors on the market. The height, width and weight of people doesn't vary in decimal increments. An imperial-measure ruler I find more pleasing to the visual intuition than a metric one.
Sure, metric is easier to calculate multiples with. But, for architecture, perhaps struggling along with a measurement system that vaguely reminds one of a real human body rather than a scale-less abstract system is no bad thing.
And another thing: if you Americans all go metric, does that mean that everything in America will get a little smaller, more in line with, say, European-size hotel rooms? ;-p
having worked in India before here in the US, let me point out that, in India we do not follow Metric for everything. For example, for smaller interiors, and even smaller projects (im talking lengths lesser than 100'), a lot of people use imperial. Ditto for interior fit-outs etc. A lot of the smaller contractors, carpenters do not even understand metric.
For masterplanning projects, we use metric in India, as well as in our office in the US (when the projects are non-US).
I prefer imperial because it fits ME well. The distance from my outstretched arm to my centerline is exactly 1 yard. And it is nice to weigh only 13 stone.
j
actually bossman, in nz, you can't get 2x4 or whatever - the equivalent size is nominal 100x50. standard panel sizes are all 1200x2400, etc...
An increasing number of construction products are metric. In the buildings I'm working on, the curtainwall, sinks, cabinets, stone slabs, terracotta tiles, etc. are all "hard" metric. So now I have to deal with two systems of measurement. My Russian coworker, the German curtainwall engineers, and the Chinese plumbers all think in metric.
"Imperial" vs "USC" and "metric" vs "SI": let's not get too caught up in semantics. Let's just dimension our plans in mm and make our lives easier. Well at least our work lives.
Conversion should start where the savings are greatest. Since scientists already use metric that leaves the AEC industry. It should also be legal to sell products with metric-only labelling. I don't care if bars continue to sell beer in pints, although I would prefer an Imperial pint.
yep, have noticed more metric construction supplies recently too...eg. armstrong now has most of their products designated with an M after the product code to get the metric sized version...
jump - i remember getting those info packs on the metric system in grade school when the switch was made...took me years to figure what the whole deal was about...it seems the multiples of 3 system works well for you, just like the typical 9 meter grids for commercial construction...unfortunately in china, they like to downsize the building grids to save cost...smaller cars, smaller people i guess, resulting in some pretty tight turns in the underground parkades...8450mm seems to ring a bell, but it's been a couple years since i drew one up...try dividing that into 3's!
aquapura - you're right, everyone on-site at a stick frame housing project still refers to everything in imperial...as the materials are all milled to suit north american market demands...but i think most jurisdictions have made it mandatory now to submit permit drawings in metric, hence the nastiness of doing said drawings...i had the incremental measurements memorized at some point earlier in my career and simply knew to draw things 610 wide or 914 high for example, otherwise i'm sure i would have had an "accident" or two on my site visits...
change is slow, maybe someone can get obama on top of it...that college football playoff system can wait a little longer...
bossman, you sure you're the one that told me about the gimli glider? I've got family in Edmonton that probably mentioned it to me before archinect even existed. Still it's an amazing story.
yeah but as i understand it, those mm lengths are just metric interpretations of the exact same size. maybe not.
why not learn both? its not THAT difficult, you know...
As somebody who grew up on the metric system in Canada, oddly enough I can't wrap my head around the metric system. I use inches and feet and miles in my everyday life, and when I'm doing rough measurements for anything design-related, it's all in feet. My brain can wrap around the idea of a 5' length better than the equivalent in metres (whatever that would be, I have no clue).
I think I learned inches and feet from my father before learning measurements in school, and that's why it's stuck with me.
who cuts your wood??
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