I hope you will indulge a question from a layperson. My wife and I are considering a very modest addition to our 75 year old brick DC rowhouse. We have had a number of design/build firms come out to visit the project as well as home renovation experts and the feelings are mixed on the feasibility of the project. Some believe it is very complex and as such not worth it, others seem to think the situation lends itself well to the project. We have meetings scheduled over the next couple of weeks with additional firms and as well as a few architects, but I am hoping to get a better understanding of the situation from people who are not trying to sell me something.
As you can see from these photos, the footprint of our home dips in, the area of this space is approximately 10.5'x5'. We would like to enclose this space on all three levels, adding storage space on the lower level, a half bath on the main level and a full bath on the upper level. Those who feel the job will be relatively easy indicate that obviously the two existing walls can be utilized without any modification and that the additional side all could be constructed on top of the existing "party wall." Some have also mentioned cantilevering the upper level. All contractors who fall in the "easy" category have suggested leaving the concrete slab that divides the lower level from the main level in place as it is ledgered in.
I am a relatively handy person and have participated in framing homes before (habitat for humanity and other such things) and what these contractors suggest makes sense to me. That said, I've never tried to tie a new structure into an existing brick structure before and so the naysayers have me concerned.
Any thoughts, comments, concerns, suggestions? My goal is to simply be better informed and the more opinions the merrier. Does this look feasible? How about reasonable?
"I am hoping to get a better understanding of the situation from people who are not trying to sell me something. "
Odd.So you are here looking for free advice?
Seriously. Just pay for or bid out a v limited proposal from an architect/ contractor that has experience in this type of thing and have them sit down w you and explain the process. The fee aint gonna kill you.
structurally, it seems feasible...consider lot coverage, the new plumbing and that exit...i am in dc and know how crazy the permitting process can be...
Do you share the party wall with the neighbor? Assuming that the neighbor and you are separated by a fire wall any addition would need to consider that. Is there another exit out of there?
Three stories, new foundations, existing (probably under- or un-reinforced) brick, tons of plumbing, building permits, possible historic district overlays, incredibly tight space, grumpy neighbors.
It is certainly possible, but I'm guessing - totally guessing - you're thinking about at minimum a $100,000 project. An architect's fee is $10,000 extra: isn't it worth that for someone who knows what the hell they're doing? Who can not only enclose the space but make it an true enhancement to the hosue and how you live in it, not just a shed with a bathtub in it? And if you're taking out a construction loan, remember that the 10% ends up being more like 6-7% once you add interest on the loan.
Invest in your home, make it not only usable but good, and save yourself a ton of headaches, by hiring someone who has done this before and can envision a better outcome than you can. That's what you're paying for.
the project is really small (probably not to you, but for any firm it is)
so your bids are going to be all over the map.
i would never sign with someone who says it is easy but does not sit down with you and explain (teaching you) why it is or isn't. (this is why we are skeptical of questions like yours. someone getting advice without a willingness to hire someone to actually do the work. architects get the shaft quite a bit in this situation but are usually the only ones that can solve such a complex problem like a small renovation)
a couple of things, have you talked to the neighbor? because you are limiting the light that (s)he would be getting by blocking their window.
by code each bedroom (and environmentally) should have a window (for fire and light). you could be loosing that required window for the addition. being in dc, i know the permit people can be very strict.
now as for the feasibility, my collegues are correct, we are not going to be able to tell you about your 75 year old structure from a bunch of photos. it is extremely complex dealing with renovations!
some of the issues i would want answered is where is the sewer i am connecting to? how are the foundations of the existing building and how would this need to connect...etc.
be careful what contractors say they "can" build esp. in the courting phase... a structural engineer needs to give you the ok! that is where the real expense should be coming from.
Thank you to those who have taken the time to answer my questions about this project. To those who have called me out for looking for free advice, please accept my apologies, I honestly meant no offense. I came to this forum because I was confused after having met with many archtects and designers. As I said they've divided into two groups with very different views on the scope and complexity of the project. My goal in coming here was really to "gut check" the findings to help me make an informed decision. I am not necessarily looking for any of you to design the addition, but rather just for your opinions. For what it is worth I saw a very active thread on this forum about lay offs in the architecture industry. While I am sorry that is occuring, might it be in your collective best interest to be more helpful to those interested in engaging your trade? Even if my check isn't headed to you directly, every little bit helps to strengthen the industry. I am well informed on many topics, architecture is not one of them. As such, this endeavor is both confusing and intimidating and all opinions are helpful.
Arzo, do you work for a firm around here? Do you have a website? Interested in bidding on this? What exactly did you mean by lot coverage? Also, what is your concern about the exit? By feasible, do you also mean reasonable? Do you agree with the scenario I described? Building on top of the party wall and cantilevering the upper level? Based on your DC experience, any ideas on a budget spectrum?
Vado- thanks for your input. Yes, on the basement level we share that party wall with our neighbor (about 4' of shared wall in the addition. Above the basement level the addition will have no common walls with the neighbor. As far as exits, we'll keep the current one, just move it out 10' and there is also an interior stairwell. As for a firewall, the construction is solid brick, about 4 bricks thick. Any additional thoughts?
Thanks for all the additional commentary. None of the contractors haved called this easy, per se, but some have suggested it is easier than others. Many have either over the phone or with just a couple of minutes looking at things said the budget need to be in the 150- 200k range. The folks who have spent real time, hours looking around, checking the plumbing, etc. have said they can do it for less than 100K. I am not looking to do this on the cheap at all, but want the best value for my money, don't want to pay someone more than necessary. I am trying to hire an architect, I really am, and that is why I am here, their opinions and budgets are so divided that I am too confused to make a decision.
A contractor probably *could* build it for under $100k, but it would be crap, frankly. Deck quality construction. You don't want that. Or, more likely, they would get halfway in, realize they'd underbid it by half, and disappear, leaving you with a house exposed to elements. I've come in to projects to fix exactly this scenario before.
Your most prudent course of action is this: find an architect who has done this kind of job before. Explore the websites of local firms; there are bound to be dozens of small-shop firms - sole proprietors - who do rowhouse renos every day. Get that person to do a solid schematic design, and get three contractors to budget it - not a bid, just a budget. Pay the contractors for their time - say a couple-few hundred each. That way you'll get realistic budget numbers. Keep in mind there may be some investigative demolition they will have to do to figure out the feasibility of anchoring to the existing wall, etc.
If the budgets come in anywhere in the realm of your ability to proceed, you can make the decision to dive in then, if not you're only out a couple thousand and have learned a LOT about the process should you decide to do it later or do something similar on a future home.
Stubits - basically the point being is that even on relatively small remodels there are multiple factors to consider. Until someone really puts their head into it to work out a schematic, you will continue to get numbers and ideas that are all over the map.
If you are getting ballparks from people that range from 100-200, you should be planning for the higher number. If it comes in below, you will be pleasantly suprised. Architects generally charge between 10-15%, again plan for the higher number. So now you are in the 230k range, add 10% for permitting, engineering, and a small contingency and you are up to 250k.
If this number doesn't have you reeling, go ahead and setup some interviews with architects. Hire the architect you feel has the best portfolio and is being the most honest with you, and start the design process as outlined by LB above.
Stubits - I grew up in DC and worked for a small residential firm there before moving west...if you would like the name of a fantastic, easy going, residential architect in the area, email me.
i'd love to talk to you about it and submit a bid. email me by clicking my name on here and sending it via archinect's mail system.
I'm based in Fairfax, VA but have done a good deal of work in DC, and have 2 remodels underway in the district right now. I'm also completing construction on a rowhouse addition that I was the owner/contractor/designer for in Baltimore right now, so I can help you get a very clear idea from an owner's perspective on the process and what's required.
thanks!
-adam
Feb 12, 09 4:21 pm ·
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Rowhouse Addition
All-
I hope you will indulge a question from a layperson. My wife and I are considering a very modest addition to our 75 year old brick DC rowhouse. We have had a number of design/build firms come out to visit the project as well as home renovation experts and the feelings are mixed on the feasibility of the project. Some believe it is very complex and as such not worth it, others seem to think the situation lends itself well to the project. We have meetings scheduled over the next couple of weeks with additional firms and as well as a few architects, but I am hoping to get a better understanding of the situation from people who are not trying to sell me something.
Photos can be found at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35295738@N06/3271430774/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35295738@N06/3270611017/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35295738@N06/3271430434/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35295738@N06/3270609923/
As you can see from these photos, the footprint of our home dips in, the area of this space is approximately 10.5'x5'. We would like to enclose this space on all three levels, adding storage space on the lower level, a half bath on the main level and a full bath on the upper level. Those who feel the job will be relatively easy indicate that obviously the two existing walls can be utilized without any modification and that the additional side all could be constructed on top of the existing "party wall." Some have also mentioned cantilevering the upper level. All contractors who fall in the "easy" category have suggested leaving the concrete slab that divides the lower level from the main level in place as it is ledgered in.
I am a relatively handy person and have participated in framing homes before (habitat for humanity and other such things) and what these contractors suggest makes sense to me. That said, I've never tried to tie a new structure into an existing brick structure before and so the naysayers have me concerned.
Any thoughts, comments, concerns, suggestions? My goal is to simply be better informed and the more opinions the merrier. Does this look feasible? How about reasonable?
Thanks!
Odd.So you are here looking for free advice?
"I am hoping to get a better understanding of the situation from people who are not trying to sell me something. "
Odd.So you are here looking for free advice?
Seriously. Just pay for or bid out a v limited proposal from an architect/ contractor that has experience in this type of thing and have them sit down w you and explain the process. The fee aint gonna kill you.
Perhaps, you should hire an architect.
haha gl1
beat me to the punch
structurally, it seems feasible...consider lot coverage, the new plumbing and that exit...i am in dc and know how crazy the permitting process can be...
Do you share the party wall with the neighbor? Assuming that the neighbor and you are separated by a fire wall any addition would need to consider that. Is there another exit out of there?
Three stories, new foundations, existing (probably under- or un-reinforced) brick, tons of plumbing, building permits, possible historic district overlays, incredibly tight space, grumpy neighbors.
It is certainly possible, but I'm guessing - totally guessing - you're thinking about at minimum a $100,000 project. An architect's fee is $10,000 extra: isn't it worth that for someone who knows what the hell they're doing? Who can not only enclose the space but make it an true enhancement to the hosue and how you live in it, not just a shed with a bathtub in it? And if you're taking out a construction loan, remember that the 10% ends up being more like 6-7% once you add interest on the loan.
Invest in your home, make it not only usable but good, and save yourself a ton of headaches, by hiring someone who has done this before and can envision a better outcome than you can. That's what you're paying for.
the project is really small (probably not to you, but for any firm it is)
so your bids are going to be all over the map.
i would never sign with someone who says it is easy but does not sit down with you and explain (teaching you) why it is or isn't. (this is why we are skeptical of questions like yours. someone getting advice without a willingness to hire someone to actually do the work. architects get the shaft quite a bit in this situation but are usually the only ones that can solve such a complex problem like a small renovation)
a couple of things, have you talked to the neighbor? because you are limiting the light that (s)he would be getting by blocking their window.
by code each bedroom (and environmentally) should have a window (for fire and light). you could be loosing that required window for the addition. being in dc, i know the permit people can be very strict.
now as for the feasibility, my collegues are correct, we are not going to be able to tell you about your 75 year old structure from a bunch of photos. it is extremely complex dealing with renovations!
some of the issues i would want answered is where is the sewer i am connecting to? how are the foundations of the existing building and how would this need to connect...etc.
be careful what contractors say they "can" build esp. in the courting phase... a structural engineer needs to give you the ok! that is where the real expense should be coming from.
good luck
Thank you to those who have taken the time to answer my questions about this project. To those who have called me out for looking for free advice, please accept my apologies, I honestly meant no offense. I came to this forum because I was confused after having met with many archtects and designers. As I said they've divided into two groups with very different views on the scope and complexity of the project. My goal in coming here was really to "gut check" the findings to help me make an informed decision. I am not necessarily looking for any of you to design the addition, but rather just for your opinions. For what it is worth I saw a very active thread on this forum about lay offs in the architecture industry. While I am sorry that is occuring, might it be in your collective best interest to be more helpful to those interested in engaging your trade? Even if my check isn't headed to you directly, every little bit helps to strengthen the industry. I am well informed on many topics, architecture is not one of them. As such, this endeavor is both confusing and intimidating and all opinions are helpful.
Arzo, do you work for a firm around here? Do you have a website? Interested in bidding on this? What exactly did you mean by lot coverage? Also, what is your concern about the exit? By feasible, do you also mean reasonable? Do you agree with the scenario I described? Building on top of the party wall and cantilevering the upper level? Based on your DC experience, any ideas on a budget spectrum?
Vado- thanks for your input. Yes, on the basement level we share that party wall with our neighbor (about 4' of shared wall in the addition. Above the basement level the addition will have no common walls with the neighbor. As far as exits, we'll keep the current one, just move it out 10' and there is also an interior stairwell. As for a firewall, the construction is solid brick, about 4 bricks thick. Any additional thoughts?
Thanks for all the additional commentary. None of the contractors haved called this easy, per se, but some have suggested it is easier than others. Many have either over the phone or with just a couple of minutes looking at things said the budget need to be in the 150- 200k range. The folks who have spent real time, hours looking around, checking the plumbing, etc. have said they can do it for less than 100K. I am not looking to do this on the cheap at all, but want the best value for my money, don't want to pay someone more than necessary. I am trying to hire an architect, I really am, and that is why I am here, their opinions and budgets are so divided that I am too confused to make a decision.
A contractor probably *could* build it for under $100k, but it would be crap, frankly. Deck quality construction. You don't want that. Or, more likely, they would get halfway in, realize they'd underbid it by half, and disappear, leaving you with a house exposed to elements. I've come in to projects to fix exactly this scenario before.
Your most prudent course of action is this: find an architect who has done this kind of job before. Explore the websites of local firms; there are bound to be dozens of small-shop firms - sole proprietors - who do rowhouse renos every day. Get that person to do a solid schematic design, and get three contractors to budget it - not a bid, just a budget. Pay the contractors for their time - say a couple-few hundred each. That way you'll get realistic budget numbers. Keep in mind there may be some investigative demolition they will have to do to figure out the feasibility of anchoring to the existing wall, etc.
If the budgets come in anywhere in the realm of your ability to proceed, you can make the decision to dive in then, if not you're only out a couple thousand and have learned a LOT about the process should you decide to do it later or do something similar on a future home.
LB = sage advice
Stubits - basically the point being is that even on relatively small remodels there are multiple factors to consider. Until someone really puts their head into it to work out a schematic, you will continue to get numbers and ideas that are all over the map.
If you are getting ballparks from people that range from 100-200, you should be planning for the higher number. If it comes in below, you will be pleasantly suprised. Architects generally charge between 10-15%, again plan for the higher number. So now you are in the 230k range, add 10% for permitting, engineering, and a small contingency and you are up to 250k.
If this number doesn't have you reeling, go ahead and setup some interviews with architects. Hire the architect you feel has the best portfolio and is being the most honest with you, and start the design process as outlined by LB above.
Stubits - I grew up in DC and worked for a small residential firm there before moving west...if you would like the name of a fantastic, easy going, residential architect in the area, email me.
i'd love to talk to you about it and submit a bid. email me by clicking my name on here and sending it via archinect's mail system.
I'm based in Fairfax, VA but have done a good deal of work in DC, and have 2 remodels underway in the district right now. I'm also completing construction on a rowhouse addition that I was the owner/contractor/designer for in Baltimore right now, so I can help you get a very clear idea from an owner's perspective on the process and what's required.
thanks!
-adam
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