A few years back, I had a bizarre and awful experience at a firm I worked for. In the year and a half I was there, the firm had a 100% turnover rate, and each of the people who left/were fired said it ruined their life for a period. (I can't really give the details here, but let's just say that the firm was a manipulative and petty place, and actively tried to thwart the careers of the people who left.)
I've stayed in touch with many of the people who left/were fired. I've also periodically been contacted by new people who have since been fired from the firm. We've formed a loose network in our area, and we all talk together about how we can warn potential young architects not to accept positions in the firm.
This week, I was contacted by yet another employee who was fired under weird circumstances. He's looking for advice about how to move on from his bad experience.
Is there a forum where such firms can be "rated" according to how they treat their employees, so that we can warn young architects away from applying there? Are there any legal reasons not to directly state that the firm is a bad place to work, and possibly the reasons why?
Depending on how tightly woven the architecture community is in your area, I wouldn't be surprised if many aren't already aware of the problems this firm has when it comes to employee treatment. It will eventually come to bite them in the ass when they realize their young talent pool has dried up. (unless this is a starchitect office and they can readily attract young designers even with a bad rep)
And if you can prove they have actively and maliciously tried to thwart careers by spreading falsehoods about employees... then you can always look into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
...or you can just let it go, and get on with your career (and maybe patiently wait for them to implode during the economic crisis....)
hmm. I know nothing of legal ramifications, but you could start by using yelp to your advantage, perhaps. You could just make an anonymous account and set up an entry for the firm and rate it. Yelp usually has a pretty high google presence so anyone searching for info on the firm, presumably because they are interviewing there, would find it. However, so would potential clients, and if it is able to be proved that you were indirectly responsible for turning away clientele, they might be able to say you libelled them or something. On the other hand, these kinds of review sites exist all over the place and they're not getting sued for libel. You might call up a libel lawyer and ask.
I disagree with nmiller in that -- especially if the firm is in a large enough metro area -- there will be plenty of unsuspecting job-hunters who may either be recently arrived in the city and have no clue what is what, or simply don't have that many friends at other firms who can tell them what it's like from the inside. For example, there are thousands of the firms in the city I live in, and I only have contacts at maybe 20 or 30 of them. There would be no way I could get the scuttlebutt on a potential firm I was interviewing with in advance -- the only way I would, and have, learned about a firm was the hard way. This has been true for pretty much everyone i know (the subject has come up before).
This is a three person firm in a slightly obscure region for architecture. I don't think anyone who applies there has any idea about the history of the firm. Furthermore, I think it would be difficult to find out anything about them—they fly under the radar.
My main interest here is in protecting future young architects from being harmed by this firm. The firm makes a point of actively discrediting employees locally who have left (whether fired or quit), making it difficult to get jobs in the area. They refuse to sign IDP. They even do things financially to outgoing employees that are questionable, such as refusing to reimburse for business-related expenses or demanding equipment back that was purchased from the firm. (And this isn't even discussing what happens while you actually work there.)
If it were just me, no problem. But I've come across numerous people who have had similar experiences. A number of them have sought me out to help them "make sense" of the experience. These employees go in thinking the place seems great, only to be fired a year or so later in abusive terms with this negative mark on their record for doing nothing more than trying to be a good employee.
Then I would start with yelp, and each of you should write a review. As long as what you're stating is true and verifiable (not signing IDP is pretty verifiable!) then I don't think you have a single thing to worry about with regard to libel. Go for it!
I should probably do this for one of my ex-firms. 5 of us quit within the same week, all for the same reason. I don't even list it on my resume.
why are you not reporting this to the AIA. that is one of the roles of the AIA - its called "professionalism". if this firm is acting un-professional, then the AIA should be informed.
this doesn't mean making any overt actions, but rather arranging an interview with the professional review committee or head of the committee and explaining in a dispassionate manner why this firm needs to be reviewed. be prepared to gather written 'statutory declarations' from employees that have received this treatment. unless the architectural community in this area is so small that the directors of this firm can 'control' the AIA, then at least you have a forum for having this reviewed with outsiders.
as someone who has been threatened (literally) to be sued for libel in connection with one of my posts on this site.... i'd say be careful. not in regards to the truthfulness of your observations, but the last thing you need is a petty firm owner taking you to court for trying to ruin his reputation.
don't waste the time. put it all towards some better karma....
I'm with Fogey: why all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?
Post the name here. (Create a new screen name for the dirty deed if you're worried about libel. But if what you claim can be documented and attested to by others, why hide?)
BTW there are many firms that have long histories of treating their employees like dirt and they've gotten away with it for decades. I don't even have to name any obvious names.
If things were serious and you say there are others in your situation - why not explore a class-action lawsuit? You might have to leave the region afterwards, though...
IMO - what goes around comes around. myself and a few others had a really bad experience at one firm a while back. One of my former colleagues from this firm got a job with the city planning dept - immediately afterwards the firm was raked over the coals every time they tried to get something built - so much so that they lost some big clients and had to pack up and leave town.
I still work in the community in which this firm exists. I have many indirect connections to the principal of the firm. The outside perception is that he's an eccentric but decent guy. He served on the local design review board at one time, so he has city connections. I'm a youngish architect trying to get my career off the ground. I've already had one situation where it was his word against mine, and of course a bigwig in the architectural community rallied around him, over/against the unknown upstart (me.)
What's not known locally is how damaging this guy (and his girlfriend/partner) are to the young architects who work there.
If I am to "out" him as a bad employer and human being, I want it to be en masse, with enough clout and force that neither he nor anyone else can deny it. I don't want to ruin his career, but I want to protect ANYONE from ever being employed by him again.
This is why I ask about sites for rating firms. I suppose Archinect is one of them. I can't really think of another way to warn away potential employees.
I'm pretty sure none of you worked at this firm. But it's amazing to me than so many of us have had equivalent experiences. All the more reason for a place to "out" such firms as bad employers.
I personally would go for Karma as well unless it was downright illegal what they were doing. The one bad thing about karma is that, sometimes it just takes so much time!
I also don't need a libel suit. I'm perpetually inclined to just forget about the guy and the experience and move on—but then I'll be contacted by a new victim, as I was earlier this week. (I guess I've become an informal counselor to people who have been through this guy's meat-grinder.) It upsets me that he can continue to employ young architects, only to mess their lives up when they decide to leave.
I would focus on building your own reputation rather than tearing his down... You'll only come off as petty if you pursue this - even though this guy deserves what's coming to him.
I've worked at a couple of firms where there were downright poisonous and disdainful environments. Knowing how small and gossipy the architecture community is, I was always quick to just make peace with even the most hateful people and then peace out myself for "better opportunities."
Many people -- especially young architects out there are quick to stir up such caustic environments without knowing how damaging it could be for them down the stretch. It's easy to get caught up in petty bullshit like this but it really isn't worth it. And many times older more seasoned veterans of the profession also make things terrible.
Farwest, if I were you I would just distance yourself from this forever and never look back. It just isn't worth it. It looks to me that neither the people nor the actual firm is worth your time and effort. Even at my young and tender level of experience I know the AIA is what it is. It's not a human rights watch organization and like I said firms have been getting away with this kind of injustice for a long time without so much a peep from the AIA or any other organization for that matter.
If it really maters, file an AIA ethics complaint or one with the state board - make sure you have documentation to back up the allegations. Also submit firm review to insidearch, and send an email to the moderator with backup of the review -they are trying to do right, but are afraid of libel - so documentation is everything.
Archinect is a great place to get advice about these kinds of issues. Not too long ago I was having issues with a questionable work environment and I was given some sage advice from even the most senior level people to the most junior level people.
But you know how it is, this isn't the time or economy to start a revolution! This one individual was a junior level individual who only had about two years of experience started to go after principals and other senior level people and was very vocal towards everyone about how things were run. The only thing me and 'very' few other people thought was "Who the fuck does this impertinent little brat think they are?!"
Jan 22, 09 1:35 pm ·
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Terrible Firm Experience -- Where Can I Warn Others?
A few years back, I had a bizarre and awful experience at a firm I worked for. In the year and a half I was there, the firm had a 100% turnover rate, and each of the people who left/were fired said it ruined their life for a period. (I can't really give the details here, but let's just say that the firm was a manipulative and petty place, and actively tried to thwart the careers of the people who left.)
I've stayed in touch with many of the people who left/were fired. I've also periodically been contacted by new people who have since been fired from the firm. We've formed a loose network in our area, and we all talk together about how we can warn potential young architects not to accept positions in the firm.
This week, I was contacted by yet another employee who was fired under weird circumstances. He's looking for advice about how to move on from his bad experience.
Is there a forum where such firms can be "rated" according to how they treat their employees, so that we can warn young architects away from applying there? Are there any legal reasons not to directly state that the firm is a bad place to work, and possibly the reasons why?
Isn't insidearch.org still running? I might be mistaken, but I thought it was shut down for legal reasons or something.
insidearch censors critical voices.
i think farwest and i worked at the same place...
tell me and i'll out them for you.
karma
Depending on how tightly woven the architecture community is in your area, I wouldn't be surprised if many aren't already aware of the problems this firm has when it comes to employee treatment. It will eventually come to bite them in the ass when they realize their young talent pool has dried up. (unless this is a starchitect office and they can readily attract young designers even with a bad rep)
And if you can prove they have actively and maliciously tried to thwart careers by spreading falsehoods about employees... then you can always look into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
...or you can just let it go, and get on with your career (and maybe patiently wait for them to implode during the economic crisis....)
hmm. I know nothing of legal ramifications, but you could start by using yelp to your advantage, perhaps. You could just make an anonymous account and set up an entry for the firm and rate it. Yelp usually has a pretty high google presence so anyone searching for info on the firm, presumably because they are interviewing there, would find it. However, so would potential clients, and if it is able to be proved that you were indirectly responsible for turning away clientele, they might be able to say you libelled them or something. On the other hand, these kinds of review sites exist all over the place and they're not getting sued for libel. You might call up a libel lawyer and ask.
I disagree with nmiller in that -- especially if the firm is in a large enough metro area -- there will be plenty of unsuspecting job-hunters who may either be recently arrived in the city and have no clue what is what, or simply don't have that many friends at other firms who can tell them what it's like from the inside. For example, there are thousands of the firms in the city I live in, and I only have contacts at maybe 20 or 30 of them. There would be no way I could get the scuttlebutt on a potential firm I was interviewing with in advance -- the only way I would, and have, learned about a firm was the hard way. This has been true for pretty much everyone i know (the subject has come up before).
This is a three person firm in a slightly obscure region for architecture. I don't think anyone who applies there has any idea about the history of the firm. Furthermore, I think it would be difficult to find out anything about them—they fly under the radar.
My main interest here is in protecting future young architects from being harmed by this firm. The firm makes a point of actively discrediting employees locally who have left (whether fired or quit), making it difficult to get jobs in the area. They refuse to sign IDP. They even do things financially to outgoing employees that are questionable, such as refusing to reimburse for business-related expenses or demanding equipment back that was purchased from the firm. (And this isn't even discussing what happens while you actually work there.)
If it were just me, no problem. But I've come across numerous people who have had similar experiences. A number of them have sought me out to help them "make sense" of the experience. These employees go in thinking the place seems great, only to be fired a year or so later in abusive terms with this negative mark on their record for doing nothing more than trying to be a good employee.
Damn... That sounds like my last firm in Chicago.
Then I would start with yelp, and each of you should write a review. As long as what you're stating is true and verifiable (not signing IDP is pretty verifiable!) then I don't think you have a single thing to worry about with regard to libel. Go for it!
I should probably do this for one of my ex-firms. 5 of us quit within the same week, all for the same reason. I don't even list it on my resume.
why are you not reporting this to the AIA. that is one of the roles of the AIA - its called "professionalism". if this firm is acting un-professional, then the AIA should be informed.
this doesn't mean making any overt actions, but rather arranging an interview with the professional review committee or head of the committee and explaining in a dispassionate manner why this firm needs to be reviewed. be prepared to gather written 'statutory declarations' from employees that have received this treatment. unless the architectural community in this area is so small that the directors of this firm can 'control' the AIA, then at least you have a forum for having this reviewed with outsiders.
aia won't look into it. at least, that's my exp. w. local
as someone who has been threatened (literally) to be sued for libel in connection with one of my posts on this site.... i'd say be careful. not in regards to the truthfulness of your observations, but the last thing you need is a petty firm owner taking you to court for trying to ruin his reputation.
don't waste the time. put it all towards some better karma....
Was it Philip R K Nixon, Master Architect?
farwest1,
Is the firm your referring to in the Midwest? I might be working there right now.
I'm with Fogey: why all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?
Post the name here. (Create a new screen name for the dirty deed if you're worried about libel. But if what you claim can be documented and attested to by others, why hide?)
Out with it, already.
I think I may have worked there a long time ago.
BTW there are many firms that have long histories of treating their employees like dirt and they've gotten away with it for decades. I don't even have to name any obvious names.
If things were serious and you say there are others in your situation - why not explore a class-action lawsuit? You might have to leave the region afterwards, though...
IMO - what goes around comes around. myself and a few others had a really bad experience at one firm a while back. One of my former colleagues from this firm got a job with the city planning dept - immediately afterwards the firm was raked over the coals every time they tried to get something built - so much so that they lost some big clients and had to pack up and leave town.
dlb - I agree, AIA review is a good idea...
I still work in the community in which this firm exists. I have many indirect connections to the principal of the firm. The outside perception is that he's an eccentric but decent guy. He served on the local design review board at one time, so he has city connections. I'm a youngish architect trying to get my career off the ground. I've already had one situation where it was his word against mine, and of course a bigwig in the architectural community rallied around him, over/against the unknown upstart (me.)
What's not known locally is how damaging this guy (and his girlfriend/partner) are to the young architects who work there.
If I am to "out" him as a bad employer and human being, I want it to be en masse, with enough clout and force that neither he nor anyone else can deny it. I don't want to ruin his career, but I want to protect ANYONE from ever being employed by him again.
This is why I ask about sites for rating firms. I suppose Archinect is one of them. I can't really think of another way to warn away potential employees.
I'm pretty sure none of you worked at this firm. But it's amazing to me than so many of us have had equivalent experiences. All the more reason for a place to "out" such firms as bad employers.
I personally would go for Karma as well unless it was downright illegal what they were doing. The one bad thing about karma is that, sometimes it just takes so much time!
I also don't need a libel suit. I'm perpetually inclined to just forget about the guy and the experience and move on—but then I'll be contacted by a new victim, as I was earlier this week. (I guess I've become an informal counselor to people who have been through this guy's meat-grinder.) It upsets me that he can continue to employ young architects, only to mess their lives up when they decide to leave.
I would focus on building your own reputation rather than tearing his down... You'll only come off as petty if you pursue this - even though this guy deserves what's coming to him.
I've worked at a couple of firms where there were downright poisonous and disdainful environments. Knowing how small and gossipy the architecture community is, I was always quick to just make peace with even the most hateful people and then peace out myself for "better opportunities."
Many people -- especially young architects out there are quick to stir up such caustic environments without knowing how damaging it could be for them down the stretch. It's easy to get caught up in petty bullshit like this but it really isn't worth it. And many times older more seasoned veterans of the profession also make things terrible.
Farwest, if I were you I would just distance yourself from this forever and never look back. It just isn't worth it. It looks to me that neither the people nor the actual firm is worth your time and effort. Even at my young and tender level of experience I know the AIA is what it is. It's not a human rights watch organization and like I said firms have been getting away with this kind of injustice for a long time without so much a peep from the AIA or any other organization for that matter.
There are plenty of firms out there.
Good advice. I'll let it drop.
If it really maters, file an AIA ethics complaint or one with the state board - make sure you have documentation to back up the allegations. Also submit firm review to insidearch, and send an email to the moderator with backup of the review -they are trying to do right, but are afraid of libel - so documentation is everything.
Archinect is a great place to get advice about these kinds of issues. Not too long ago I was having issues with a questionable work environment and I was given some sage advice from even the most senior level people to the most junior level people.
But you know how it is, this isn't the time or economy to start a revolution! This one individual was a junior level individual who only had about two years of experience started to go after principals and other senior level people and was very vocal towards everyone about how things were run. The only thing me and 'very' few other people thought was "Who the fuck does this impertinent little brat think they are?!"
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