ruh-oh...probably forgot to pay the bills.

i can get in.....although s!@# hit the fan if you don't already know....and people are pissed!!!

http://www.areforum.org/forums/view_topic.php?id=70507&forum_id=2&jump_to=369316

didn't norman dorf run that, along with his are help service? i know he died last year...

Not sure who runs that website but I did hear that NCARB brough down the hammer and removed a lot of threads regarding the actual exam content. Also threatening to take legal action against those that allegedly violated their disclosure agreement.

In all honesty, I read that website once before an exam and found everything posted there to be of very little help. Great support club for those taking the exams, but I'm not sure why NCARB has much to worry about.

because they violate the sherman antitrust act?

Interesting, when I was testing four years ago (or so) there was one person who had his testing suspended for a year for sharing info.

I wonder if the uptick in cheating (NCARB's word, not mine) is because of the new test and that many people are frantically trying to pass 3.0 before it disappears. Seems like a lot of this could have been anticipated.

But NCARB exists to collect money and not much else.

I was able to get on with no problem. Much talk of Class Action Lawsuits for the Clusterfuck of delayed test results.

I just sent in my annual NCARB membership fee. I think I'll send them a letter now telling them they need to shape up. The ARE is a far bigger pain in the ass than it needs to be, and from what I've heard it's only gotten worse in the 6 (or so) years since I passed the test. Maybe letters from people (like me) who are through the process already will help them realize they really are acting like a nasty monopolistic brute.

And if their response to me is that they want me to help shape the exam process as a licensed professional, I'll be happy to say yes. Architects are typically late adopters of technology - including understanding its social/legal impact - and NCARB is no exception.

ya it is like autodesk wasting money on lawsuits against solidworks and the open design alliance and hostile takeovers/buyouts rather than innovating.
as an analogy of any unhealthy monopoly that feels threatened.

go figure.....

LB - the ARE is a complete hassle. Why it takes so long to grade a test, especially the mult-choice ones is beyond me. The LEED test gives you your score right away. On top of that, if you fail the ARE they give you zero feedback. How is anyone supposed to learn from their mistakes? I've heard conspiracy theories that there is a "failure quota" and that one exam I failed might have actually been a pass, etc. etc. Thankfully I have one exam to retake and hopefully that will be it for me.

you guys really have no clue...i have more of a clue, but really, i mean this with all sincerity and no slight intended, it's complicated. scores are not possible at the end, unlike LEED the process here is quite different.

they have Phd's working this effing exam to death. some things are possible but other things are not...

just finish the damn thing and move on. the funny thing is, the more people bitch and delay, the harder the damn thing is getting.

beta, that is so true...need to get these Effing exams done...

But I do have an issue with the way these exams are made...the questions are purposefully ambiguous and I feel that they don't provide encouragement to actually get licensed. In v4.0, its a mish-mash of all topics in all the exams, and one never really has the feeling of being prepared holistically before you go into the exam hall. You come out feeling even more frustrated and nervous because you don't have a handle on whether you've passed or failed...and if you do happen to fail, there is no feedback...
The Effing software is cumbersome and annoying as hell...and is made for people who have never used CAD before...
NCARB has also made them more expensive ...so if you fail, its a drain on your already shallow pocket...

Here's my experience...and I'm not exaggerating...I was taking Site Planning in v3.0...which had three vignettes...I got through two of them and when I came back to the main screen, it said that the exam had finished....so to add to all the frustration, here's another way that you can be screwed over....by the damn computer...of course, the nitwits at the exam center had no clue what to do, and could only "log an incident"...and told me to contact NCARB...which I did and was told to "Fax" (who in this time uses a fax ???) a written complaint...which I did....but to no avail...I've tried contacting them for a long time and nothing has come of it...

I hate this shit...makes me not want to be licensed....

Betadentures, can you be more clear about what we don't know? Why would a more transparent grading system be impossible? And why would a computer graded exam take two months to grade?

ARE is a hazing. It tests commitment not saavy. I'm a late-tester after working in the field for years beyond receiving my March. Everyone, from my boss to my engineer-plan checker at Los Angeles Department of Building and Safety assured me I would pass - they tell me I'm smart and thorough (please disregard any misspellings or grammatical errors in this post - I'm venting). I'm the Barney Fife of construction documents and I work in a small-enough office (4 people includes receptionist) to have competence about all aspects of the field. And not only did I not pass my first exam, all my hunches about how I could have possibly failed were debunked by the negligently vague feedback. I'm being tested by an organization that demonstrates zero professionalism and ACE profiteering skills. I think that's the definition for gypsies - or the Bush administration (Halliburton and the Texas oil execs.).

We need to organize - ask questions: NCARB, AIA, Prometric, Kaplan: what's your measure? where's your accountability? Are you just a bunch of bureaucratic goons equivalent to the mafia?

We need to organize and establish a measure of review for this bureau of measure - perhaps an agency of peer review as an alternative measure of licensing.

How about some law suits (class action)? - a simple demand for feedback from the ARE exams. We pay gobs of money to take them (and for the study material too), why can't we learn from them? Is this the blind-man's bluff game for profit? (Why can't we simply get the results in a timely manner - as we're expected to deliver projects- and have prometric treat us with the same regard and professionalism as we're expected to treat any client?)

Am I doomed to fail all my exams for publicly asking these questions?

man, this reminds me of when i was taking the test and all the protest letters i sent to ncarb.

what finally got me through? norman dorf (mentioned above). how?

after i had two non-passing results for the building design graphic section, he asked me some questions about how i approached it.

his diagnosis and prescription: "you're approaching this too much as a conscientious architect with experience. stop doing good design, stop designing to code as you understand it, stop thinking so hard - JUST FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS.

"this test is not about being a good architect - just about jumping over hurdles."

i passed on the third try.

hey, n00blars, you haven't been around here long enough to be a dick to me. i signed a non-disclosure agreement. finish the exams, volunteer to be a exam writer, participate in the pre-test sessions, and you'll understand the why's.

honestly, the exams are really easy, i failed SP and knew when i was taking it that i failed. i had the computer crap out on me when i was taking the ME exam, and that totally interrupted my flow and focus.

i spent a little time being aggravated by the exam process, and thinking that i would give them a piece of my mind when i volunteered, but when i got there, the veil was pulled back and all of the participants understood the nature of tests and why things are the way they are. i realize now, what we all intuitively know, i should have spent less time on the things i can't control or change and more time studying, and control the things i could control.

I agree that the exams (ver 3.0) aren't that tough. Still mystified why a multiple choice exam takes weeks to grade. Isn't there a clear correct answer for each question? I even understand why they don't want to show us what we got wrong, but not even a simple score is offered. Mind you, I say this as someone who passed all but BP on the 1st try. Like Steven said, it's more about jumping hurdles than making sure one is prepared to be an "Architect."

Steven, I think I worked for you...

My IDP completion ended up being delayed 2 years because my boss at the time failed the building design portion 2 times (and failed no other tests). He did the same thing -- contacted Prof. Dorf and figured out how to pass the test by forgetting all that he knew about designing. It's pretty sad. He did pass it on the 3rd try, but in the meantime I wasn't able to log any of those IDP hours. (It was still worth working there however.)

Anyway, I do understand how it would be difficult to truly grade design on design quality, and that probably the only way you *could* set up a design "test" would be to lay out straightforward criteria (however asinine) and simply grade people against how well they follow those given rules. So maybe, it's just one of those quirks of how to design a test.

I would be curious to know how the bar exams and medical boards are graded. How fast do they get their grades back, and do they get feedback?

well i can tell you that the woman taking the nursing exam had her pass letter when she walked out the door.

well, my understanding about the results was that you are tested by prometric on behalf of ncarb on behalf of your state licensing board, so all those people got to know before you do, or something lame...

but seriously, you have to wait 6 months to retake anyway, so why not be a little patient. i'm expecting results to take 2 months, so basically if i fail one, i figure it saves me 2 months of feeling humiliated.

really, i don't think the graphic tests are necessary. moving around furniture and rooms and interpreting progams and making it fit is all well and good, but i don't think that's really testing a skill. for the most part, you're just thinking about what the stupid software will mark you down for. that ability has nothing to do with how we practice.

an essay (*gasp*) might be appropriate, an explanation of how you would satisfy the programmatic requirements. almost like a proposal narrative.

i've taken 4, and I think the tests should be harder. I'm not sure what other professional exams are like, but for guarding the health, safety, & welfare of the public, i don't think it's doing enough.

I guess my ARE experience was not so bad as most of my exam results came back within 4-6 weeks. Granted this was 2+ years ago.

I think the other item here people need to understand is that the state which you are taking the exam through is responsible for sending you your pass/fail letters. Some states do this quickly, others do not.

I took my exams through CA so all of my pass/fail letters came from the CA board office and not directly from NCARB.

NCARB is a national entity however, the practice of architecture is not regulated at a national level and each individual state can determine what the necessary qualifications (experience/education) are for practice. This is why NCARB does not send us our pass/fail letters directly.

Granted some bitching and moaning is normal for any licensing examination but seriously guys, stop complaining and just take the damn tests. While your waiting for score results, study! It's not like you have to wait until you pass to take the next test. I took 1 exam every month and studied one hour each night and 8 hours each weekend. I finished all the exams in about a years time.

If you are seriously being held up by NCARB than put together your records and contact an attourney. Most people I've spoken with complain that NCARB is slow or unresponsive but then I ask them to prove it. Show me your phone notes detailing who you spoke with, what time and on what date. Show me your certified mail or signature delivery recepits for written correspondance you've sent them. If your having serious problems with NCARB write letters and ask them for a response. Telephone conversations have a way of being "forgotton" by the party at fault.

Deal with NCARB like you would a contractor on a hard-bid job. Document the hell out of everything and if they fail to perform their duties in a timely manner, hold them accountable.

i contacted ncarb 3 times regarding my situation of experience/etc.... they could care less....

if this whole 'architecture thing' is about taking a test, then maybe it should just be that. idp is pointless and shouldnt hold any bearing on the testing qualifications. if you pass the exam then there you go.

b

Just because we're bitching and moaning about the exams, does not mean that we will not take them. Personally, I am at that point in life where if I don't get this over with NOW, I never will....so I'm going to do it.
But here's another issue worth considering. Why should the exams exist at all....
The curriculum in the schools should be updated to be more rigorous and profession oriented and less "high-design" and abstract. In other countries, graduates actually come out of school eligible to license on their own, because the curriculum is deemed intensive enough to prepare them to safeguard the health, safety and welfare of the public. I went to a more technically oriented program where the professional practice material was actually sourced from the ARE...so that was a beginning...

It sucks that we have to go through 5 years of undergrad, 2 years of graduate education, get paid pennies for working our asses off, and still have the regulatory authorities like NCARB and the AIA not do a damn thing to improve the situation.

Minimal - It's a stretch to expect the universities to graduate people ready to be practicing Architect. There is much to be learned through an apprenticeship no matter how good academia is. Calling graduates of a professional program "interns" is a bit demoralizing IMO, but that's a different subject. The point is, I think one should work in the "real world" for a minimum amount of time before they can practice. An exam after an apprenticeship seems to be working quite well for architecture.

To answer a few random questions, the Bar exam varies from state to state, so you don't have the same national outcry from everyone like the architects do. The bar exams vary in difficulty and if you search a few JD discussion boards you find people asking which states bar exam is the easiest to pass, so they can move there to test.
For the Medical Boards, you go through a progressive examination, step 1-3.Where you have to demonstrate increasing knowledge and skill, step two includes a "practical" skills assessment as well as the multiple computer exam. To their credit they are very open about HOW they score and report your score relative to other recent testers when you get your report. See it here.
Regardless, I don't think either is a perfect match for architecture. I do believe that NCARB et. al. are trying to improve the ARE tests. Saying a test is difficult is subjective. I think that complaints are a valid form of feedback and NCARB could go a long way to at least SEEMING more responsive to the feedback. I found the letter amusing since out of the hundreds, if not thousands of people who have or are taking the tests, NCARB is upset that they have found 16 people in the last 2 years that are openly breaking their (overly broad) confidentiality agreement.
If you are taking the tests, keep it up, after you pass the tests you CAN never have to deal with these people again, if you choose.
j

aqua,
I agree with your statement, that an apprenticeship teaches you quite a bit. But do not agree with the rest.
I think some schools are already trying to do this. Some of the polytechnics and state universities are trying to reorganize their programs so that their graduates are better prepared to tackle the profession, rather than just be great at the latest 3D Modeling software trend.
If you think that the exams in the current format are working well, then why do you suppose that 9 out of 10 people taking the exams are frustrated, pissed off and disillusioned about the process, and the number of licensed professionals is reducing year by year...

By the way...does anyone know what happened to Archvoices ?

i don't think that its out of line to expect a multiple choice test result in the year 2009 in a shorter period of time than it took to deliver the mail from the colonies to england in the 18th century.

Minimal - I agree with you that the eduation needs to much more closely match the actual practice. This for one would help weed out the over populated architecture programs out there these days. If anything the colleges need to be graduating less architecture majors. That said, I don't support an abandonment of a professional licensure exam. There are so many (for lack of better terms) hacks that graudate with architecture degrees. By taking the ARE it separates me from the masses with just another degree and further limits the number of architects. My argument for our low pay all along has been the supply x demand level. If suddenly anyone with a degree can sign drawings we'll have floods of "hacks" stamping drawings for cut rate fees. So far as I'm concerned, less people getting registered is not a problem. Especially in today's economy.

Consider dealing with NCARB another learning opportunity on how to deal with obstructionist, recalcitrant and byzantine regulatory agencies that you will have to deal with when you become a fully licensed architect.

I believe that the people (or person) involved in ArchVoices moved on to bigger and better things. There wasn't anyone to follow up and take over the tredmendous resource they started.

I'm glad that I finally finished taking the tests. Now I don't have to deal with it anymore. My only real problem was the uncertainity of when the results would come. Especially for the last couple of tests.

I think that NCARB needs a lesson in Public Relations.

I'm very excited and grateful to only have one flipping retake left, ME. And I wasted absolutely no energy worrying about all the NCARB is evil crap. It slows you down and the ARE forum is a waste of time, unless you need somewhere to whine.