We're a small corporate interiors firm who are looking for software that is the most comprehensive but user friendly - that can be used from schematics through design development through construction. We currently use AutoCAD 2008 LT - but really would like something that also has great 3D capabilities. Any thoughts??
I have a few years experience doing corporate interiors work, and regular AutoCAD (not LT) was about all we ever needed, plus the usual Adobe Creative Suite stuff for presentations, etc.
Our friendly Autodesk vendor was relentless in his efforts to shove Revit down our throats whether we needed it or not, but it would have been overkill for 99% of the work we did.
SOme of my interior design friends who do strictly interiors really like ArchiCAD. They say it really helps with not only floorplans, but renderings as well. I don't know how much the software is or really anything about it, but it may be worth doing a little research.
Aspect - you may be right, I'm not in touch with a lot of my old classmates. The few that I am use, either AutoCAD or ArchiCAD... or are doing residential and don't touch a computer at all.
it's easy to get started, takes a bit of time to learn to use well, but after a bit of practice, gets to be fun...
you can use it draw in plan, drawing with walls just like using a polyline tool... and meanwhile a 3D model is being built... the walls aren't just 3d extrusions, but they have a wall type, and you can click on any wall and change its wall type...
Some things still need to be drafted, like details... But the callouts are parametric model objects... So no more changing bugs and sheet numbering... They're all connected...
ideal for smallish projects... it's easy and time effective for a single person to model a whole building, have the documents prepared and be able to make changes without having to constantly update every sheet... it's parametric so stuff updates automatically... schedules, etc... you drop in detail bugs, section bugs, and it creates new views... it's pretty robust, doesn't get too slow even as the model gets pretty (reasonably) complex...
so... parametric modelling... your documents, a 3D model, all built simultaneously...
later you can render from it... it's not bad... good enough to get some decent renders for showing something, and you can easily make changes to it... move walls, push and pull... raising and lowering datums or floor elevations, and things adjust automatically... move furniture around, even make changes in front of a client in response to their comments... as you move stuff in plan, your perspective view and elevations update... pretty easy to do an animated walkthrough... you can make your own custom objects-- parametric furniture objects that you can drop onto any plan... parametric custom window types, etc... where basically you program the rules on its proportions or whatever you want... curtainwalls... custom mullions (that could be anything... fins to daylighting devices, etc.)
Thanks so much to all for your responses - they were all extremely helpful. Revit was something that I was thinking of originally, but didnt know if it would be too much for a smaller firm to handle...
ArchiCAD uses Lightworks as it's rendering engine and it can produce good renderings with it.
As I've noticed on Revitcity.com, most of the renderings have been taken from Revit into another rendering software for better results (max ect...) ArchiCAD will produce quality renderings without the need to export it to another rendering software. With the exception of Photoshop perhaps to crop, add people and other minor touches.
In addition, the "BIM" capabilities (automatic elevations, sections, live update, schedules) are all there as well. It can also export various formats (dwg, pdf ... ect.)
We do interiors work with ArchiCAD and we have been successful in communicating our ideas with the use of ArchiCAD. I feel that both Revit and ArchiCAD would be a good choice, however I feel ArchiCAD is a bit more user friendly (particularly because there will be a learning curve with either one) and the 3D rendering production is better.
i have seen several small firms fail due to revit switching. be wise in what you choose that is not the program me thinks for quick profitable interior jobs, to much learning curve upfront, learn it aside from a solution, like intellicad or rhino like i mentioned on the other thread is my advise.
again what does your ideal end product look like or do you want it to look like, an example would help.
We do design development packages that are rendered plans, elevations, and perspective renderings - these are obviously followed by construction documents. Currently we use autocad as a bas for all of these things, then use M-Color, and Photoshop/Illustrator.
I agree with Antisthenes, be aware of the learning curve. I do believe that ArchiCAD (AC) will give you the results you are seeking, especially AC 12 with some of the new features it has for creating color/textured floor plans via the zone tool. And obviously 3D renderings.
M-Color and Photoshop (not to mention CAD) are clearly 2D design methods, however ArchiCAD and Revit are both 3D/BIM. It will take some time to transition and get up to speed with.
Both have good information and case studies, and white papers. I would suggest to narrow your search to one and do research/download trial before you commit.
Have you tried SketchUP? It is incredibly intuitive and has great add on rendering capabilities with more than adequate rendering results. Plus it has limited (compared to AC/Revit) CAD import/export capabilities.
Even though our office uses ArchiCAD we've (I've) used SketchUP when we did not need high quality (per-say) renderings to convey our concepts. Something to consider.
Revit is around $4k, same with Archicad
Vectorworks Architect is about $2k
3DS Max is around $3500
Rhino is about $900 and an add-on renderer (maxwell/VRAY/Fry) is around $1k
this stuff is a serious capital investment not to be taken lightly; my firm bought Revit a year and a half ago (against my advice) in order to "do 3D" and we've barely used the program since: only two of us currently know how to use it and the rest are too set in their ways…I push it every chance I get (I'm the IT/CAD guy) since I hate having an expensive tool that never gets used, not necessarily because I like the program (though it is growing on me)…any BIM program is a waste of money if you're only using it for 3D renderings/views--there are much better programs available (Rhino, MAX, Maya, Cinema4D, XSI, Lightwave, Blender, modo, silo…)
Another thing to consider is that this discussion has only been about the software--these programs really need good hardware to run on-->Autodesk recommends running Revit on a machine with 4GB RAM available for it alone which means you're looking at a minimum of a 6GB RAM machine running a 64bit OS<--the funny thing is that the white paper that this comes from was produced before they had a 64bit version of Revit available.
download the demos for the programs that have been mentioned in this and the other threads--> try them out and see if one fits your workflow better than the others
where as rhino is advertised to run on anything.
and if you have any interns their seats can be gotten for 140$ that are considered full commercial for them, anywhere they go in this volatile economy.
# Pentium, Celeron, or higher processor.
# Windows 2000, XP, or Vista for Intel or AMD.
# 200 MB disk space.
# 512 MB RAM. 1 GB or more is recommended.
# OpenGL graphic card recommended.
# IntelliMouse recommended
the next step beyond software, with hopefully out having to pick new hardware is methodology/processes
Revit for rendering is *okay*... You can get decent enough 3D views, enough to show a client... But if you're not interested in BIM, maybe 3D studio max is a way to go...
Keep in mind that if your entire staff is new to 3D, rendering (photorealistic), especially for interiors where you need to learn how to do artificial lighting, is quite another animal that will take alot of time and dedicated practice to learn to do well... 3D studio max is pretty good for that, but again, to do it well, you need to study alot... Also, to be really decent in *any 3D rendering* you should be relatively savy at photoshop. Photoshop is necessary to do "post-production* on your renderings (putting in people, photoshopping in some elements like reflections of landscape, etc., painting in skies, etc...) and to give it a finished look... (on top of the rendering and lighting skills)... Also, bein savy in photoshop gives you the skills to customize your material maps (the materials that get mapped onto your 3D geometry)... For example, if you are in interiors and you work with specific materials, you can photograph the actual material or scan them in, and use photoshop to create a nice "wallpaper" that doesn't look overly tiled and rigid and make that actual material applicable o any of the geometry in your model... This takes photoshop skills to do nicely...
If all you really want is to use CAD, and then be able to do some 3D models from your CAD drawings, I'd actually recommend using sketchup. It's intuitive enough, easier to learn and actully produce reasonable 3D models (perspectives or axons) that you can look at an print out right away that look good enough to show an idea... You can color and texture map reasonably well without having to think about the lighting... With CAD and sketchup, you could build the model look at it in SD phases as sketchup hidden line renders (sort of a line drawing with colors and lineweights and some shading (but not a *real* render), and then for the final fancy presentation views *outsource to a 3D renderer* to do the rendering part, building some of the model and flushing it out, and doing all of the post production... Professional renderers will have the best hardware to be able to render quickly, will have the photoshop and rendering andd lighting skillset to do something that looks really nice, like a painting or a photo, and will charge you anywhere from $1000 (chinese renders) to $4000 or $5000+ for one rendering... (which is dirt cheap compared to the cost of labour hours and education and hardware and software costs it would take for your staff to be able to produce anything close to the same result...)
Here are two files you can download of a recent presentation given at AU. It's about techniques that can be used for large interior projects with the use of BIM (in this case Revit).
The renderings done on Revitcity are renderings of the old rendering engine Accurender. Since the last release Revit has a Mental Ray rendering engine that makes it possible to get the same level or rendering quality as 3ds max without leaving the Revit enviroment. Now, I'm not sure if Lightworks is way better than Mental Ray.
maybe we should make some kind of Flowchart of render engines and what they work on, and maybe some result examples.
while i like to use unbiased renders Vray is obviously the render most used and with the quickness and ability to exist on the most platforms. The behavior of autodesk adobe ms and apple leaves allot to be desired.
the thing about Revit and mental ray (as well as accurender previously) is that the render engine is not fully implemented--passes aren't supported, all the custom shaders are missing, multi-core support/buckets are missing, etc.
It's not meant for "hardcore" renders--it's more a kind of "mental ray" light, so using it as an example for what mental ray is capable of will be misleading.
objectively comparing render engines is tough because so much of the image is based on the skills of the artist rather than the capabilities of the engine--it's very easy to skew the results either way.
true... the quality of images is heavily related to the skills of the artist, more so than the power of the render engine... which is why, for a firm that is just getting into 3D, ease of use, and ease of output (being able to put something on paper that looks decent without having to develop alot of lighting and post-production technique) is important... Just because you have a set of paints and a paint brush doesn't mean you can a beautiful painting...
I actually think Sketchup is sufficient for what alot of beginners need... Sketchup gets you to a point where you can show something, a drawing pretty easily, "sketches"... It's a good stepping stone... And you can import autocad drawings, etc...
beginners being the key word, this is a small professional firm, using something sub-par that all signs point be being cut because of unprofitably may not be the wisest choice in the current market where you want to meet and exceed clients needs.
no way are all render engines equal, sure experience is important but hands down as somebody who does this type of work every week you DO want a quality engine and choice of a few too. Vray has it, the market that is because of peoples trials and experiences in fast quality output
This was posted on the other thread, but it should be placed here too. First and foremost, any program you are looking into using, definitely download the trials and try them out as many above have said. In addition, the other posting read:
What 3D capabilities are you looking for? Do you want this for (1) your own visualization or (2) to create interior renderings for clients?
If its #1, you can do that with a full version of AutoCAD, or you can try to pick up ArchiCAD or other similar CAD based programs. I don't like Vectorworks (more like I despise it) but others here think its the bee's knees. Far be it from me to tell you not to try VW out. If 3D is still second to documentation and production drawings this is the way to go. Personally I think you should stick with a full version of AutoCAD to minimize the learning curve unless you really like one of the other program's abilities.
If its #2, I hope you have a lot of time on your hands (and/or a kid just out of school) because making a professional looking rendering or animation is difficult to do - especially so for interiors where finishes and lighting is difficult enough to do well in real life, and twice as hard in a computer model. That's time and investment on top of learning a new program. And you can give up on one program providing both 3D rendering abilities and production drawings - they are two different animals entirely.
Dec 29, 08 8:12 pm ·
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BEST software for a small interiors firm??
We're a small corporate interiors firm who are looking for software that is the most comprehensive but user friendly - that can be used from schematics through design development through construction. We currently use AutoCAD 2008 LT - but really would like something that also has great 3D capabilities. Any thoughts??
revit
what are you looking to spend? and what are examples of what you produce or want to produce?
I have a few years experience doing corporate interiors work, and regular AutoCAD (not LT) was about all we ever needed, plus the usual Adobe Creative Suite stuff for presentations, etc.
Our friendly Autodesk vendor was relentless in his efforts to shove Revit down our throats whether we needed it or not, but it would have been overkill for 99% of the work we did.
SOme of my interior design friends who do strictly interiors really like ArchiCAD. They say it really helps with not only floorplans, but renderings as well. I don't know how much the software is or really anything about it, but it may be worth doing a little research.
i thought most interior design firm use 3d max, cos they have good mapping library and furniture?
Aspect - you may be right, I'm not in touch with a lot of my old classmates. The few that I am use, either AutoCAD or ArchiCAD... or are doing residential and don't touch a computer at all.
I'd suggest Revit. If autocad = word, revit = excel...
To see what it does, here are some basic tutorials from youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSy16U4MB4Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/revitian
also a good revit online community:
www.revitcity.com
it's easy to get started, takes a bit of time to learn to use well, but after a bit of practice, gets to be fun...
you can use it draw in plan, drawing with walls just like using a polyline tool... and meanwhile a 3D model is being built... the walls aren't just 3d extrusions, but they have a wall type, and you can click on any wall and change its wall type...
Some things still need to be drafted, like details... But the callouts are parametric model objects... So no more changing bugs and sheet numbering... They're all connected...
ideal for smallish projects... it's easy and time effective for a single person to model a whole building, have the documents prepared and be able to make changes without having to constantly update every sheet... it's parametric so stuff updates automatically... schedules, etc... you drop in detail bugs, section bugs, and it creates new views... it's pretty robust, doesn't get too slow even as the model gets pretty (reasonably) complex...
so... parametric modelling... your documents, a 3D model, all built simultaneously...
later you can render from it... it's not bad... good enough to get some decent renders for showing something, and you can easily make changes to it... move walls, push and pull... raising and lowering datums or floor elevations, and things adjust automatically... move furniture around, even make changes in front of a client in response to their comments... as you move stuff in plan, your perspective view and elevations update... pretty easy to do an animated walkthrough... you can make your own custom objects-- parametric furniture objects that you can drop onto any plan... parametric custom window types, etc... where basically you program the rules on its proportions or whatever you want... curtainwalls... custom mullions (that could be anything... fins to daylighting devices, etc.)
I should be a salesperson for Revit...
keep your autocad and get rhino+maxwell for 3D. autocad 2009 have decent 3d capabilities,probably not the LT version
Thanks so much to all for your responses - they were all extremely helpful. Revit was something that I was thinking of originally, but didnt know if it would be too much for a smaller firm to handle...
melt - do you know if ArchiCAD is compatible with AutoCAD dwgs?
i know you're a new user here, and the thread groupings are a little confusing, but can you consolidate this discussion in one thread?
Yes, ArchiCAD is compatible with AutoCAD dwgs.
ArchiCAD uses Lightworks as it's rendering engine and it can produce good renderings with it.
As I've noticed on Revitcity.com, most of the renderings have been taken from Revit into another rendering software for better results (max ect...) ArchiCAD will produce quality renderings without the need to export it to another rendering software. With the exception of Photoshop perhaps to crop, add people and other minor touches.
In addition, the "BIM" capabilities (automatic elevations, sections, live update, schedules) are all there as well. It can also export various formats (dwg, pdf ... ect.)
We do interiors work with ArchiCAD and we have been successful in communicating our ideas with the use of ArchiCAD. I feel that both Revit and ArchiCAD would be a good choice, however I feel ArchiCAD is a bit more user friendly (particularly because there will be a learning curve with either one) and the 3D rendering production is better.
Best of luck!
beta - i would love to - how do i do that?
keep posting here and leave those other 2 posts dead. click that text that says Click here to view all categories simultaneously
i have seen several small firms fail due to revit switching. be wise in what you choose that is not the program me thinks for quick profitable interior jobs, to much learning curve upfront, learn it aside from a solution, like intellicad or rhino like i mentioned on the other thread is my advise.
again what does your ideal end product look like or do you want it to look like, an example would help.
We do design development packages that are rendered plans, elevations, and perspective renderings - these are obviously followed by construction documents. Currently we use autocad as a bas for all of these things, then use M-Color, and Photoshop/Illustrator.
I agree with Antisthenes, be aware of the learning curve. I do believe that ArchiCAD (AC) will give you the results you are seeking, especially AC 12 with some of the new features it has for creating color/textured floor plans via the zone tool. And obviously 3D renderings.
M-Color and Photoshop (not to mention CAD) are clearly 2D design methods, however ArchiCAD and Revit are both 3D/BIM. It will take some time to transition and get up to speed with.
Both have good information and case studies, and white papers. I would suggest to narrow your search to one and do research/download trial before you commit.
Have you tried SketchUP? It is incredibly intuitive and has great add on rendering capabilities with more than adequate rendering results. Plus it has limited (compared to AC/Revit) CAD import/export capabilities.
Even though our office uses ArchiCAD we've (I've) used SketchUP when we did not need high quality (per-say) renderings to convey our concepts. Something to consider.
cadvance
Revit is around $4k, same with Archicad
Vectorworks Architect is about $2k
3DS Max is around $3500
Rhino is about $900 and an add-on renderer (maxwell/VRAY/Fry) is around $1k
this stuff is a serious capital investment not to be taken lightly; my firm bought Revit a year and a half ago (against my advice) in order to "do 3D" and we've barely used the program since: only two of us currently know how to use it and the rest are too set in their ways…I push it every chance I get (I'm the IT/CAD guy) since I hate having an expensive tool that never gets used, not necessarily because I like the program (though it is growing on me)…any BIM program is a waste of money if you're only using it for 3D renderings/views--there are much better programs available (Rhino, MAX, Maya, Cinema4D, XSI, Lightwave, Blender, modo, silo…)
Another thing to consider is that this discussion has only been about the software--these programs really need good hardware to run on-->Autodesk recommends running Revit on a machine with 4GB RAM available for it alone which means you're looking at a minimum of a 6GB RAM machine running a 64bit OS<--the funny thing is that the white paper that this comes from was produced before they had a 64bit version of Revit available.
download the demos for the programs that have been mentioned in this and the other threads--> try them out and see if one fits your workflow better than the others
where as rhino is advertised to run on anything.
# Pentium, Celeron, or higher processor.and if you have any interns their seats can be gotten for 140$ that are considered full commercial for them, anywhere they go in this volatile economy.
# Windows 2000, XP, or Vista for Intel or AMD.
# 200 MB disk space.
# 512 MB RAM. 1 GB or more is recommended.
# OpenGL graphic card recommended.
# IntelliMouse recommended
the next step beyond software, with hopefully out having to pick new hardware is methodology/processes
Revit for rendering is *okay*... You can get decent enough 3D views, enough to show a client... But if you're not interested in BIM, maybe 3D studio max is a way to go...
Keep in mind that if your entire staff is new to 3D, rendering (photorealistic), especially for interiors where you need to learn how to do artificial lighting, is quite another animal that will take alot of time and dedicated practice to learn to do well... 3D studio max is pretty good for that, but again, to do it well, you need to study alot... Also, to be really decent in *any 3D rendering* you should be relatively savy at photoshop. Photoshop is necessary to do "post-production* on your renderings (putting in people, photoshopping in some elements like reflections of landscape, etc., painting in skies, etc...) and to give it a finished look... (on top of the rendering and lighting skills)... Also, bein savy in photoshop gives you the skills to customize your material maps (the materials that get mapped onto your 3D geometry)... For example, if you are in interiors and you work with specific materials, you can photograph the actual material or scan them in, and use photoshop to create a nice "wallpaper" that doesn't look overly tiled and rigid and make that actual material applicable o any of the geometry in your model... This takes photoshop skills to do nicely...
If all you really want is to use CAD, and then be able to do some 3D models from your CAD drawings, I'd actually recommend using sketchup. It's intuitive enough, easier to learn and actully produce reasonable 3D models (perspectives or axons) that you can look at an print out right away that look good enough to show an idea... You can color and texture map reasonably well without having to think about the lighting... With CAD and sketchup, you could build the model look at it in SD phases as sketchup hidden line renders (sort of a line drawing with colors and lineweights and some shading (but not a *real* render), and then for the final fancy presentation views *outsource to a 3D renderer* to do the rendering part, building some of the model and flushing it out, and doing all of the post production... Professional renderers will have the best hardware to be able to render quickly, will have the photoshop and rendering andd lighting skillset to do something that looks really nice, like a painting or a photo, and will charge you anywhere from $1000 (chinese renders) to $4000 or $5000+ for one rendering... (which is dirt cheap compared to the cost of labour hours and education and hardware and software costs it would take for your staff to be able to produce anything close to the same result...)
Ya ctually, before you do anything, invest in any software, try downloading the trials and play with them to see what works for you...
Also download google sketchup and see if that suits your needs... It's free and I think the pro version is cheap...
Here are two files you can download of a recent presentation given at AU. It's about techniques that can be used for large interior projects with the use of BIM (in this case Revit).
Powerpoint
http://uploading.com/files/GHO78S8B/AB110-4_AU_08_AEC_Techniques-for-Large-Project-Architectural-Interiors-in-Revit_2008-12-01.ppt.html
PDF
http://uploading.com/files/1YS4IOV6/Revit for interior designers.pdf.html
The renderings done on Revitcity are renderings of the old rendering engine Accurender. Since the last release Revit has a Mental Ray rendering engine that makes it possible to get the same level or rendering quality as 3ds max without leaving the Revit enviroment. Now, I'm not sure if Lightworks is way better than Mental Ray.
for sure accurender nXt is better than accurender 4
mental ray is pretty sweet...
maybe we should make some kind of Flowchart of render engines and what they work on, and maybe some result examples.
while i like to use unbiased renders Vray is obviously the render most used and with the quickness and ability to exist on the most platforms. The behavior of autodesk adobe ms and apple leaves allot to be desired.
the thing about Revit and mental ray (as well as accurender previously) is that the render engine is not fully implemented--passes aren't supported, all the custom shaders are missing, multi-core support/buckets are missing, etc.
It's not meant for "hardcore" renders--it's more a kind of "mental ray" light, so using it as an example for what mental ray is capable of will be misleading.
objectively comparing render engines is tough because so much of the image is based on the skills of the artist rather than the capabilities of the engine--it's very easy to skew the results either way.
true... the quality of images is heavily related to the skills of the artist, more so than the power of the render engine... which is why, for a firm that is just getting into 3D, ease of use, and ease of output (being able to put something on paper that looks decent without having to develop alot of lighting and post-production technique) is important... Just because you have a set of paints and a paint brush doesn't mean you can a beautiful painting...
I actually think Sketchup is sufficient for what alot of beginners need... Sketchup gets you to a point where you can show something, a drawing pretty easily, "sketches"... It's a good stepping stone... And you can import autocad drawings, etc...
cadvance
beginners being the key word, this is a small professional firm, using something sub-par that all signs point be being cut because of unprofitably may not be the wisest choice in the current market where you want to meet and exceed clients needs.
no way are all render engines equal, sure experience is important but hands down as somebody who does this type of work every week you DO want a quality engine and choice of a few too. Vray has it, the market that is because of peoples trials and experiences in fast quality output
This was posted on the other thread, but it should be placed here too. First and foremost, any program you are looking into using, definitely download the trials and try them out as many above have said. In addition, the other posting read:
What 3D capabilities are you looking for? Do you want this for (1) your own visualization or (2) to create interior renderings for clients?
If its #1, you can do that with a full version of AutoCAD, or you can try to pick up ArchiCAD or other similar CAD based programs. I don't like Vectorworks (more like I despise it) but others here think its the bee's knees. Far be it from me to tell you not to try VW out. If 3D is still second to documentation and production drawings this is the way to go. Personally I think you should stick with a full version of AutoCAD to minimize the learning curve unless you really like one of the other program's abilities.
If its #2, I hope you have a lot of time on your hands (and/or a kid just out of school) because making a professional looking rendering or animation is difficult to do - especially so for interiors where finishes and lighting is difficult enough to do well in real life, and twice as hard in a computer model. That's time and investment on top of learning a new program. And you can give up on one program providing both 3D rendering abilities and production drawings - they are two different animals entirely.
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