So, I have just recieved my annual raise for the year...and I'd just like to say that I am happy to have a paying position after the recent lay-offs round the country and in particular my office. With that being said my work load and resposibility have increased dramatically. I wish to not be a greety employee but I feel I deserve more...I understand these hard econic times but I dont not understand an incresed work load and a slightly less increase from last year. At date of hire 50,000 - after annual review, 52,000 - after today, 53,500. I guess I was just expecting it to be a little more.
Currently I work in Berkeley, CA(at this office for 2yrs FT) - I have a 5year B-Arch from an accreditted school, have not taken my ARE's or LEED exams, graduated in May 06, worked in an architecture firm on and off since Winter of 2000, in the "off" time I was in school and working as a carpenter, Prior to 2000 I worked full time+++ for 2yrs as a carpenter. (I know how a bldg goes together and how to communicate with contractors)
Had my annual review a month ago and I wasnt surprised that they noticed my improvement(from last review) in taking on new jobs, working well with others in my team, pioneering new programs as the office standard, and enthusiasum to take on any task at hand. Even my reviewers said my review went extremely well.
Not only that but after completing certain jobs - getting praised by principles for completing them in a prestine timely fashon. Working countless hours after the bell rings to get the job done...no matter what.
being the lone representive from my firm to sit in mind numbing beurocratic meetings, Answering all questions pertaining to revit and the office standards and how they clash and how we can solve it, 2 new transportation jobs dropped on my lap(they are only studies) - managing revit files and all coordination of other consulatants for 1 other Transportation job @35%CD - Designing/Drafting a Teen Center project from design conception and still going(entering DD) - BTW the questions about revit come from all ends...all day ("All ends" = pricipals down to n00b)
I guess I'm just wondering some of you would be willing to offer some feedback to this situation. Ive checked out the salary polls and other recent threads pertaining to a similar subject.
Wait you only have 2 years' experience and you are already making 52k?! That's good pay, man. Suck it up. Be lucky you even got a raise -- my firm and most I know did not give out raises and sometimes not even bonuses this year.
Those that know me on this site know that this is typically the exact opposite response I give salary-seekers. But seriously, even if you think you deserve a raise, it's going to look pretty bad at this time of year/economy to ask. Take what you got, and in 6 months raise the issue, if you're still not happy. Otherwise you risk making yourself layoff target #1 when the going gets slow.
I didn't break $50k until I was registered, and that was after 8 years experience. Granted, that was about 5 years ago, but with the economy today you are lucky to be in as good a shape as you are in.
Keep working hard, don't get discouraged, and (as manta suggests) see how things look in six months and potentially ask again.
Also, pursue your registration aggressively as soon as you are able. That combined with how much the firm already likes you will make for a big bargaining chip when the time comes!
$52,000 is good pay at your experience level. if you want a bump, look towards registration.
[btw spell and grammar check your work. it's hard to take someone seriously with so many basic spelling and grammar mistakes. i'm being harsh, but also trying to be constructive. your supervisors and clients may be thinking the same thing.]
It really depends on location, what does salary.com say? Here in the DC area, its quite common to be above 50K with only 2+ years of experience. I know unlicensed architects with 4+ years who are making in the 70-80K's.
you are unlicensed. you only have a b.arch. you only graduated 2 years ago. you are lucky to be making more than $40k. seriously.
then again, if your firm is one of the generous (i.e. corporatey) ones, check and see what you're getting paid compared to your coworkers of similar experience. i don't know how you can ask without it being awkward, but find out if you can. then you'll have more of a gauge of what your firm is willing to pay. if you think your role in the firm is vital... ask for more. see what they say.
but like i said... $53k with only 2 years of experience is already magnificent. you are so lucky.
That isn't that unusual in SF bay area. My friend with same amount of exp makes that much. I was making 46,000 (48k 7months later) just out of undergrad with 4 yr BA Arch degree before getting laid off. ahh, good olden days... Now I think i can work as an intern.....
dear archiTEKE, is your firm searching for any temp or interns? though I kinda doubt it nowadays but I'd like to ask anyway..
yes, i believe so..
my friend who used to work in seattle asked 35k when she applied job around here in bayarea. that firm hired her right away. That firm extorted crap out of her until she found out that her coworker who had exactly same amount of exp makes around 52k. She was hella pissed and moved onto another firm for better pay because that firm offered her 40k.
so dear architects, please do salary research before applying in another states.
$53k may be standard for 2ys/exp in the Bay Area, I don't know, but in this economy I wouldn't be complaining too much. I'm sure there is a mess of architecture grads with 2+ years experience and extensive Revit knowledge that are currently seaching for work in the area. My guess is they are all willing to work for less than you too. You don't have enough experience to make yourself inexpensible so don't complain. If you are the go-to Revit tech, so be it. Right now flexibility is the name of the game. Don't be "too good" for anything, and be happy you got a raise. Many people aren't getting raises/bonuses this year at all.
53k is pretty good for 2 years experience but not amazing. this whole attitude of "i wasn't making that much when i was your age..." is really wrong.
"lucky to be making more than 40k"? you've got to be kidding.
there is a whole long thread recently about the guy who wants to take a job for $500 a month and everyone says "NOOOOOO! don't take that job. do it for the good of the profession." but then somebody comes along who happens to be making more money than you are and cast him off as greedy and ungrateful for what he has. you're all seriously trying to say that we don't deserve to be making at least 50k right out of school? please.
i'm in nyc so we might make a little more than in other areas but starting pay is approaching and perhaps has surpassed 50k for new grads - and not just in corporate firms.
I think I said something similar before in another thread - I'm not sure I like "the economy stinks so be happy with what you got" attitude. At the same time, the firm really might not be able to afford to give you a larger raise due to the economy - even if they also believe you should get a larger one.
So my reasoning is, it is more important of what they think of you, then what kind of paycheck you take home. But from the sound of it, the review went well and they realize that you deserve more, but couldn't afford to give you more. In that case, there is probably nothing you should do.
In my situation, I was promised a 20% raise with a promotion before I left for my long vacation. When I came back, I was given the promotion without the raise, without them telling me that they didn't give me the raise. With the promotion, I lost my overtime pay so in essence I was being paid less. Even in this economy, I went straight to them and worked out a 10% raise. In fact, I would've been OK with them not giving me a raise if they could justify it and would have been upfront about it.
TD, as I said before, I almost always encourage people to ask for more and shoot for the moon -- hell, you never know what you're going to get, and certainly in this profession more than in others, people tend to have less flattering opinions of themselves and their worth to the firm than is the actual fact. Therefore it is usually important to be encouraging toward those salary seekers. Actually I believe this may be the first time ever that I haven't been.
In this case, I believe the salary seeker is already receiving a good salary, and you can rest assured that we are intelligent enough to be adjusting for locale... I am familiar with the bay area market and from what I know, I would consider the salary good and stick with it. Also, what slartibartfast said is true -- I, too, hate the ole "suck it up, it's bad times" argument --there's too much potential there for that argument to be sometimes used as a manipulative tool-- but there is some truth to the fact that at only 2 years out, you really can't afford to make yourself too obnoxious to your employers. And that was really the basis of my point above. The fact of the matter is that his firm, like most, is probably receiving stacks of resumes a day --I know we are -- and with only 2 years experience, the firm hasn't invested THAT much in this person that they couldn't easily take a $10k savings and hire someone else. And it does happen. So while it's useful to know what other people in your region are making, you also have to think about the specifics of your actual firm and what is actually going on right now with your firm's economics -- rather than just thinking 'well I know someone else in SF who makes $60k, so I should ask for that!' The reality is that the pay scale in this biz ain't universal, my friend.
i didn't mean to suggest that we don't deserve $50k+... i think with our education we should be making six figures straight out of a master program.
but i was expressing the reality of the situation. few people i know with less than 5 years experience make $50k. with two years experience i was making $35k in a big city.
mantaray-
I agree that with 2 years experience most people aren't bringing a lot of unique qualities to the table. this is a very strange time we are in right now, so I agree with you that any raise should be much appreciated.
This conversation just seems very similar to the $500 per month conversation. if the firm could hire somebody with the same experience for 40k rather than 53k, why not hire someone for $500 per month. i'm sure there's somebody who's willing to do it. where and how do we draw the line?
Ryan- you are absolutely NOT expressing the reality of the situation. it doesn't matter what you were making with 2 years experience. in fact what you wrote is exactly what's wrong with our profession. on the one hand you think we should make 100k right out of school. on the other hand, you don't know anyone with that experience making 50k, thus noone else should be. what gives?
Ryan thinks you should be making 100K "just because of the education"? What can you do just out of school that can justify enough billing to clients to earn 100K? Are you out of your mind? Do you even comprehend what it takes to keep an office afloat? Add your benefits to this, health, vision, dental?
Your education was primarily pie in the sky wonderland projects, that have little to do with the realities of a real Architectural practice!
I think one great thing that might come out of this horrible economic crisis is a freakin' REALITY CHECK
i understand the realities of the situation: architecture is expensive, and clients aren't willing to pay architects enough (i.e. our services aren't worth enough to them) to allow us to have similar salaries to lawyers, doctors, hedge fund managers, etc with similar education and experience levels.
i'm not talking about economic reality here though. i am just expressing frustration at how even though i am at least as smart, qualified, educated, and dedicated as people in those other professions, they make reasonable salaries whereas we are stuck at near-poverty levels (often with a 50-100 hour work week too!! wtf!!)
so, i hate the economic realities of the profession. but i haven't found anything else that i'm more interested in, so i guess i have to do architecture. i would be bored to tears being a lawyer or a doctor or a banker. and i'm still naive enough to believe that i'll be fine in the future on these salaries...
i'm just saying: based on how intelligent, educated, and capable we are, we SHOULD be worth $100k right out of school. but alas, the present balance of supply and demand in our pseudo-capitalist economy doesn't allow that. but unless we can make our services more valuable to our clients, i guess we're stuck where we are.
actually, we shouldn't be worth 100K plus right out of school, b/c we are not licensed and we do not know what we are doing b/c our schooling does not prepare us for "real-world architecture" Not all lawyers walk out of school making 6 figures...those that do went to top schools, were the best in their class and work 120 hours + a week working their asses off. Doctors right out of school do residency, lasting anywhere from 4-8 years, making about 35K starting out and not making the real money until they finish their residency...and that is after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, then 4 years of residency.
I wouldn't say that any architecture student I know is as smart as a doctor...if they were, they would probably be in medical school.
I think the thing that would make architects more worth the money they want would to be to take back more of the responsibility they have given away...
we pay an undergrad with 1 year experience $ 60K. But he is good. It all depends on your individual talent - dont go too much by salary polls etc. If you think you are very valuable to the company, you are worth more.
That said, times are very lean, so hold on for a few months, then raise the topic. It is getting very ugly out there, so Id suggest some restraint.
So am I severely underpaid making $42k in Texas with 4 years experience? I really would like some help on this. I'm almost finished with exams and am thinking hard about my next steps, though I do like my current firm (2.5 years) and the economy is down.
Where in Texas? I don't know much about pay scale in Texas. Ask Sarah Hamilton, she's around here somewhere.
In each of the 3 cities I've worked in, $42k would be underpaid for 4 yrs experience and part-way through ARE. But each of those cities are high-rent cities.
Dapper, you should probably be making more, but again, it depends on your location. If you're in Bryan, that's probably pretty good. Dallas, not so.
TD, "I wasn't making that much when I was your age" is what those of us in our 40s have to offer this conversation that those in their 20s do not. It's valuable for a questioner to get responses from both ends of the spectrum. You could even call it "perspective".
yeah LB, that's my feeling. And I have a sad and strange history of this problem. In all my jobs, even part-time high school and college jobs, I always end up somewhere being underpaid while giving 110% to the job. My spineless noodle gene seems to be well developed. Once I get my license though, I will be taking the highest offer possible. Maybe then I"ll feel like I earned it.
Dapper, no one's ever going to give you more than you ask for; they will always give you just a little bit less. It's like salary negotiation 101. I suggest reading a few books on salary negotiation (there are some great ones out there) before your next job search. It may be very helpful to you to see the other side of the coin -- how your potential boss sees the negotiation. Then you will know much better where you stand.
In general I wish there was MUCH more willingness to share salary amounts with peers in this biz. Collective knowledge would only help us and take away a huge power on the part of the boss.
LB-' "I wasn't making that much when I was your age" ' ...I didn't make that comment.
But if someone is going to go ask for more money, make sure you are worth what you are asking for...
Are you taking on more responsibility than your peers?
Are your projects successful and completed on time?
Have you made goals for yourself that you have accomplished and met the goals that the company has set for you?
Do you have a good attitude at work and do people enjoy working with you? Do you have presence in the architecture community-are you involved in professional organizations that gets your name and your companies name out there in a positive light?
If you can answer yes to these questions and can defend them with examples, then a raise may be due, but in this economic time it may be hard to justify.
A cost of living increase is about 2-3% of your current salary-this is given usually if you have done your job well. A 5-10% raise is if you go above and beyond. If you have gone above and beyond, and can explain how and showcase the results, then there is justification.
However, if you find that you are paid far below other peers, you might look in to why-look at yourself first. Are you as good as the others? Do you have the same TYPE of experience? Not just the years, b/c someone who has 2 years experience designing bathrooms and details has far less experience then someone who has 2 years taking the lead on a project or being involved in the complete process...so what type of experience do you have? Just putting in years is not always justified-it depends on the quality of the time you have had. And if your current company isn't giving you quality time, then maybe it's time to move to a company that will- though again, unfortunately, we are in a very bad time to move jobs if you have a safe job.
And if through your analysis you find you are still severely underpaid, then unfortunately, you probably won't get the raise at that company. They are more than likely not going to bring your pay up to the others...they will prob. only give you a small raise if that. The best way to make a significant jump in salary other than a promotion is to switch companies and then ask for what you think you are worth. But again, this is a hard time to be asking for more money.
I do think architects should be worth more-they are smart...don't get me wrong there...but I do think doctors are smarter-yes a different kind of smart, but I think theirs is harder to grasp than ours. But, architecture as a profession needs to take more on to be eligible for more money-since we have let the engineering aspect go, and are liable for less in that matter, owners want to pay more to those that ensure their building stands up and their systems work. You can hate that statement all you want, but engineers have more liability than architects, and with more liability comes more money, so until the architecture world takes on more liability, they will continue to make less money.
I really don't consider myself having 2yrs experience...I chalk it up to about 4 with working part time while in a 5yr program. Hell, I was even drafting for a firm before I decided to go to arch school. The type of experience I had while in school was in a couple of res arch firms for min. 20hrs a week mainly drafting, the occasional design problem, constr. mgmt and building the projects I was drafting/designing.
As I have said in most of my interviews, I have a lot more experience than your typical college grad. Some firms understood - some didn't. My first job offer out of school was 52k/yr in a sm office(I asked for 50k) I gladly took the job but I ended up being the office mgr, project mgr, cad mgr and mentor to people older and less experienced than myself. After a mth I decided I needed a mentor and left the position for a 50k job(which is where I am now) I LOVE my job and would never dream of leaving at this point. I just feel I deserve more since Ive taken on a lot of unexpected responsibility. The transportation jobs we are working on are the first ones of that kind in our office. They are bringing in the big money...the constant money...the guaranteed money!
I'm thinking Ill wait till the economy picks up a little to ask for the raise...just not sure if I should tell them how I feel now or just wait for the economy....or till next review. Which ever comes first.
I don't think AGE should really matter in the 21st century...EXPERIENCE will get the job done...and that's what brings in the bux, right? And just cause I have a B Arch??? Am I suppose to have a masters as well?(+50,000loans) Or do you prefer a non-related degree and a 2yr masters of arch? LOL
I don't think we should make 6 figures either, but I would be nice to be able to pay off my school loans before I reach the age of 60...Im 28. - And yes, Grad school is out of the question.
Also I apologize to anyone who is offended by my spelling and grammar....I'm busy at work and don't have the time/money to have my secretary proof read my message board posts.
Thx to all for taking time out of their busy day to read my long posts. You rawk!
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you need to learn some negotiation skills in order to get a better raise. It is a part of the game, and perhaps you are not experienced in negotiation yet given the few years of experience under your belt. I don't think your wages are awful, especially in this economy, but you lost your opportunity to make a case for a higher wage. Even in this economy, some firms are willing to pay extra for a good worker who can produce good, quality work. Some firms would rather lay off other less than stellar workers to keep the better paid employees.
For the future, you should know that raises are always negotiable. Don't listen to other people here that say that you should be happy with what you have. You'll never move up with that attitude, and you'll definitely never get adequate raises if you follow that advice. This is, after all, business, and you need to think like a business person if you want to get paid a decent salary.
What I've found useful is always having a raise amount in my head before the big meeting...I've usually assume a 10% to 15% increase from my existing salary. You should also have a long list of achievements you've completed for the firm throughout the past year. Stay positive, talk about how much you enjoy the work you do, and talk about your commitment to the firm. If they offer an amount below the number you have in your head, thank them for the offer, but indicate that based on your accomplishments and increased responsibility, you believe you should make XXX amount (based on the number you previously had in your head). If they matched or pass the number in your head, you should respond the same way (some disappointment), and add a few extra thousand to their number. The number can always be negotiated. If they say they cannot do that (given the financial climate), then you can always request another review in, say, 4 months to review another possibility for a raise again. The point is that you should *always* ask for more than what they're offering. It never hurts to ask.
ArchiTEKE, as someone who was once in a similar position, I have learned that the other side of the coin is that you may be an *experienced* grad, but really only the post-grad full-time experience can be counted on. Hence my saying you only have 2 years post-grad experience. That is what counts, in reality.
I had the following experience in the Bay Area a few years back, with four years' experience: successful job interview, we started discussing pay. The interviewer asks me how much I want. I say $55,000, which was $10,000 more than I was making at a firm back east at the time.
The interviewer gives me a funny look, gets up, closes the door, and sits back down. "We'll offer you $65,000," he says quietly. $10,000 more than I'd asked for! I later found out that he was embarrassed at how low my request was. And that a guy in the firm with less experience than me was making $75,000. After one year, I was up to that amount.
The point is that pay can vary RADICALLY from city to city. And that you never know how much you can get until you try.
"Also I apologize to anyone who is offended by my spelling and grammar....I'm busy at work and don't have the time/money to have my secretary proof read my message board posts."
The critique did not claim offense, only that "it's hard to take someone seriously with so many basic spelling and grammar mistakes." And he's right.
You're the one who appears to be offended by some basic, legitimate criticism. Others manage to write clearly without multiple mistakes; you can, too. I'd wager nobody here has a secretary to proof their writing; instead, they choose to think and take some care.
If you really want to be taken more seriously as a professional, start writing like one... rather than excusing laziness and poking the critic.
Had my meeting today with the big guns. And I just wanted to personally thank cadcroupier and farwest1 for your useful and motivational responses. As well as everyone else who responded, its just that cadcroupier and farwest1 added the crucial information!
I decided to walk into the meeting just to let them know where I stand, I understand the economy is in the shithouse, what I know about average pay for trans projects is higher than the norm, and that I didnt call this meeting to ask for a raise.
-What I walked out of the meeting with was a 7% pay increase
-52k to 55.5k - I AM STOKED!
I truely see where I stand in this firm......
Did I ever tell anyone that I love my job? Well I do!
Merry Xmas to you too, Moody - and a Happy New Year!
Yet another Salary question
So, I have just recieved my annual raise for the year...and I'd just like to say that I am happy to have a paying position after the recent lay-offs round the country and in particular my office. With that being said my work load and resposibility have increased dramatically. I wish to not be a greety employee but I feel I deserve more...I understand these hard econic times but I dont not understand an incresed work load and a slightly less increase from last year. At date of hire 50,000 - after annual review, 52,000 - after today, 53,500. I guess I was just expecting it to be a little more.
Currently I work in Berkeley, CA(at this office for 2yrs FT) - I have a 5year B-Arch from an accreditted school, have not taken my ARE's or LEED exams, graduated in May 06, worked in an architecture firm on and off since Winter of 2000, in the "off" time I was in school and working as a carpenter, Prior to 2000 I worked full time+++ for 2yrs as a carpenter. (I know how a bldg goes together and how to communicate with contractors)
Had my annual review a month ago and I wasnt surprised that they noticed my improvement(from last review) in taking on new jobs, working well with others in my team, pioneering new programs as the office standard, and enthusiasum to take on any task at hand. Even my reviewers said my review went extremely well.
Not only that but after completing certain jobs - getting praised by principles for completing them in a prestine timely fashon. Working countless hours after the bell rings to get the job done...no matter what.
being the lone representive from my firm to sit in mind numbing beurocratic meetings, Answering all questions pertaining to revit and the office standards and how they clash and how we can solve it, 2 new transportation jobs dropped on my lap(they are only studies) - managing revit files and all coordination of other consulatants for 1 other Transportation job @35%CD - Designing/Drafting a Teen Center project from design conception and still going(entering DD) - BTW the questions about revit come from all ends...all day ("All ends" = pricipals down to n00b)
I guess I'm just wondering some of you would be willing to offer some feedback to this situation. Ive checked out the salary polls and other recent threads pertaining to a similar subject.
Wait you only have 2 years' experience and you are already making 52k?! That's good pay, man. Suck it up. Be lucky you even got a raise -- my firm and most I know did not give out raises and sometimes not even bonuses this year.
Those that know me on this site know that this is typically the exact opposite response I give salary-seekers. But seriously, even if you think you deserve a raise, it's going to look pretty bad at this time of year/economy to ask. Take what you got, and in 6 months raise the issue, if you're still not happy. Otherwise you risk making yourself layoff target #1 when the going gets slow.
I agree 100% with mantaray.
I didn't break $50k until I was registered, and that was after 8 years experience. Granted, that was about 5 years ago, but with the economy today you are lucky to be in as good a shape as you are in.
Keep working hard, don't get discouraged, and (as manta suggests) see how things look in six months and potentially ask again.
Also, pursue your registration aggressively as soon as you are able. That combined with how much the firm already likes you will make for a big bargaining chip when the time comes!
$52,000 is good pay at your experience level. if you want a bump, look towards registration.
[btw spell and grammar check your work. it's hard to take someone seriously with so many basic spelling and grammar mistakes. i'm being harsh, but also trying to be constructive. your supervisors and clients may be thinking the same thing.]
It really depends on location, what does salary.com say? Here in the DC area, its quite common to be above 50K with only 2+ years of experience. I know unlicensed architects with 4+ years who are making in the 70-80K's.
you are unlicensed. you only have a b.arch. you only graduated 2 years ago. you are lucky to be making more than $40k. seriously.
then again, if your firm is one of the generous (i.e. corporatey) ones, check and see what you're getting paid compared to your coworkers of similar experience. i don't know how you can ask without it being awkward, but find out if you can. then you'll have more of a gauge of what your firm is willing to pay. if you think your role in the firm is vital... ask for more. see what they say.
but like i said... $53k with only 2 years of experience is already magnificent. you are so lucky.
that's what i make and i'm running medium proejcts! that's decent pay
That isn't that unusual in SF bay area. My friend with same amount of exp makes that much. I was making 46,000 (48k 7months later) just out of undergrad with 4 yr BA Arch degree before getting laid off. ahh, good olden days... Now I think i can work as an intern.....
dear archiTEKE, is your firm searching for any temp or interns? though I kinda doubt it nowadays but I'd like to ask anyway..
is SFO more expensive than seattle?
yes, i believe so..
my friend who used to work in seattle asked 35k when she applied job around here in bayarea. that firm hired her right away. That firm extorted crap out of her until she found out that her coworker who had exactly same amount of exp makes around 52k. She was hella pissed and moved onto another firm for better pay because that firm offered her 40k.
so dear architects, please do salary research before applying in another states.
are you really supposed to ask for a certain salary? i've always just let them make the first offer. then i've accepted it without negotiating...
$53k may be standard for 2ys/exp in the Bay Area, I don't know, but in this economy I wouldn't be complaining too much. I'm sure there is a mess of architecture grads with 2+ years experience and extensive Revit knowledge that are currently seaching for work in the area. My guess is they are all willing to work for less than you too. You don't have enough experience to make yourself inexpensible so don't complain. If you are the go-to Revit tech, so be it. Right now flexibility is the name of the game. Don't be "too good" for anything, and be happy you got a raise. Many people aren't getting raises/bonuses this year at all.
53k is pretty good for 2 years experience but not amazing. this whole attitude of "i wasn't making that much when i was your age..." is really wrong.
"lucky to be making more than 40k"? you've got to be kidding.
there is a whole long thread recently about the guy who wants to take a job for $500 a month and everyone says "NOOOOOO! don't take that job. do it for the good of the profession." but then somebody comes along who happens to be making more money than you are and cast him off as greedy and ungrateful for what he has. you're all seriously trying to say that we don't deserve to be making at least 50k right out of school? please.
i'm in nyc so we might make a little more than in other areas but starting pay is approaching and perhaps has surpassed 50k for new grads - and not just in corporate firms.
I think I said something similar before in another thread - I'm not sure I like "the economy stinks so be happy with what you got" attitude. At the same time, the firm really might not be able to afford to give you a larger raise due to the economy - even if they also believe you should get a larger one.
So my reasoning is, it is more important of what they think of you, then what kind of paycheck you take home. But from the sound of it, the review went well and they realize that you deserve more, but couldn't afford to give you more. In that case, there is probably nothing you should do.
In my situation, I was promised a 20% raise with a promotion before I left for my long vacation. When I came back, I was given the promotion without the raise, without them telling me that they didn't give me the raise. With the promotion, I lost my overtime pay so in essence I was being paid less. Even in this economy, I went straight to them and worked out a 10% raise. In fact, I would've been OK with them not giving me a raise if they could justify it and would have been upfront about it.
still $53,500 more than i make....
my favorite response these days
TD, as I said before, I almost always encourage people to ask for more and shoot for the moon -- hell, you never know what you're going to get, and certainly in this profession more than in others, people tend to have less flattering opinions of themselves and their worth to the firm than is the actual fact. Therefore it is usually important to be encouraging toward those salary seekers. Actually I believe this may be the first time ever that I haven't been.
In this case, I believe the salary seeker is already receiving a good salary, and you can rest assured that we are intelligent enough to be adjusting for locale... I am familiar with the bay area market and from what I know, I would consider the salary good and stick with it. Also, what slartibartfast said is true -- I, too, hate the ole "suck it up, it's bad times" argument --there's too much potential there for that argument to be sometimes used as a manipulative tool-- but there is some truth to the fact that at only 2 years out, you really can't afford to make yourself too obnoxious to your employers. And that was really the basis of my point above. The fact of the matter is that his firm, like most, is probably receiving stacks of resumes a day --I know we are -- and with only 2 years experience, the firm hasn't invested THAT much in this person that they couldn't easily take a $10k savings and hire someone else. And it does happen. So while it's useful to know what other people in your region are making, you also have to think about the specifics of your actual firm and what is actually going on right now with your firm's economics -- rather than just thinking 'well I know someone else in SF who makes $60k, so I should ask for that!' The reality is that the pay scale in this biz ain't universal, my friend.
i didn't mean to suggest that we don't deserve $50k+... i think with our education we should be making six figures straight out of a master program.
but i was expressing the reality of the situation. few people i know with less than 5 years experience make $50k. with two years experience i was making $35k in a big city.
mantaray-
I agree that with 2 years experience most people aren't bringing a lot of unique qualities to the table. this is a very strange time we are in right now, so I agree with you that any raise should be much appreciated.
This conversation just seems very similar to the $500 per month conversation. if the firm could hire somebody with the same experience for 40k rather than 53k, why not hire someone for $500 per month. i'm sure there's somebody who's willing to do it. where and how do we draw the line?
Ryan- you are absolutely NOT expressing the reality of the situation. it doesn't matter what you were making with 2 years experience. in fact what you wrote is exactly what's wrong with our profession. on the one hand you think we should make 100k right out of school. on the other hand, you don't know anyone with that experience making 50k, thus noone else should be. what gives?
Ryan thinks you should be making 100K "just because of the education"? What can you do just out of school that can justify enough billing to clients to earn 100K? Are you out of your mind? Do you even comprehend what it takes to keep an office afloat? Add your benefits to this, health, vision, dental?
Your education was primarily pie in the sky wonderland projects, that have little to do with the realities of a real Architectural practice!
I think one great thing that might come out of this horrible economic crisis is a freakin' REALITY CHECK
whoa there, no need to yell. ;)
i understand the realities of the situation: architecture is expensive, and clients aren't willing to pay architects enough (i.e. our services aren't worth enough to them) to allow us to have similar salaries to lawyers, doctors, hedge fund managers, etc with similar education and experience levels.
i'm not talking about economic reality here though. i am just expressing frustration at how even though i am at least as smart, qualified, educated, and dedicated as people in those other professions, they make reasonable salaries whereas we are stuck at near-poverty levels (often with a 50-100 hour work week too!! wtf!!)
so, i hate the economic realities of the profession. but i haven't found anything else that i'm more interested in, so i guess i have to do architecture. i would be bored to tears being a lawyer or a doctor or a banker. and i'm still naive enough to believe that i'll be fine in the future on these salaries...
i'm just saying: based on how intelligent, educated, and capable we are, we SHOULD be worth $100k right out of school. but alas, the present balance of supply and demand in our pseudo-capitalist economy doesn't allow that. but unless we can make our services more valuable to our clients, i guess we're stuck where we are.
actually, we shouldn't be worth 100K plus right out of school, b/c we are not licensed and we do not know what we are doing b/c our schooling does not prepare us for "real-world architecture" Not all lawyers walk out of school making 6 figures...those that do went to top schools, were the best in their class and work 120 hours + a week working their asses off. Doctors right out of school do residency, lasting anywhere from 4-8 years, making about 35K starting out and not making the real money until they finish their residency...and that is after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, then 4 years of residency.
I wouldn't say that any architecture student I know is as smart as a doctor...if they were, they would probably be in medical school.
I think the thing that would make architects more worth the money they want would to be to take back more of the responsibility they have given away...
we pay an undergrad with 1 year experience $ 60K. But he is good. It all depends on your individual talent - dont go too much by salary polls etc. If you think you are very valuable to the company, you are worth more.
That said, times are very lean, so hold on for a few months, then raise the topic. It is getting very ugly out there, so Id suggest some restraint.
tinydanger, i agree with what you've said, except:
"if they were [as smart as a doctor], they would probably be in medical school"
lol, i hope you're joking. architects on the whole are clearly as smart as doctors... our intelligence is just focused into different outputs.
So am I severely underpaid making $42k in Texas with 4 years experience? I really would like some help on this. I'm almost finished with exams and am thinking hard about my next steps, though I do like my current firm (2.5 years) and the economy is down.
Where in Texas? I don't know much about pay scale in Texas. Ask Sarah Hamilton, she's around here somewhere.
In each of the 3 cities I've worked in, $42k would be underpaid for 4 yrs experience and part-way through ARE. But each of those cities are high-rent cities.
Houston. Cost of living is pretty low. And I have 2 tests and mainly management sections of IDP left.
Dapper, you should probably be making more, but again, it depends on your location. If you're in Bryan, that's probably pretty good. Dallas, not so.
TD, "I wasn't making that much when I was your age" is what those of us in our 40s have to offer this conversation that those in their 20s do not. It's valuable for a questioner to get responses from both ends of the spectrum. You could even call it "perspective".
yeah LB, that's my feeling. And I have a sad and strange history of this problem. In all my jobs, even part-time high school and college jobs, I always end up somewhere being underpaid while giving 110% to the job. My spineless noodle gene seems to be well developed. Once I get my license though, I will be taking the highest offer possible. Maybe then I"ll feel like I earned it.
Dapper, no one's ever going to give you more than you ask for; they will always give you just a little bit less. It's like salary negotiation 101. I suggest reading a few books on salary negotiation (there are some great ones out there) before your next job search. It may be very helpful to you to see the other side of the coin -- how your potential boss sees the negotiation. Then you will know much better where you stand.
In general I wish there was MUCH more willingness to share salary amounts with peers in this biz. Collective knowledge would only help us and take away a huge power on the part of the boss.
LB-' "I wasn't making that much when I was your age" ' ...I didn't make that comment.
But if someone is going to go ask for more money, make sure you are worth what you are asking for...
Are you taking on more responsibility than your peers?
Are your projects successful and completed on time?
Have you made goals for yourself that you have accomplished and met the goals that the company has set for you?
Do you have a good attitude at work and do people enjoy working with you? Do you have presence in the architecture community-are you involved in professional organizations that gets your name and your companies name out there in a positive light?
If you can answer yes to these questions and can defend them with examples, then a raise may be due, but in this economic time it may be hard to justify.
A cost of living increase is about 2-3% of your current salary-this is given usually if you have done your job well. A 5-10% raise is if you go above and beyond. If you have gone above and beyond, and can explain how and showcase the results, then there is justification.
However, if you find that you are paid far below other peers, you might look in to why-look at yourself first. Are you as good as the others? Do you have the same TYPE of experience? Not just the years, b/c someone who has 2 years experience designing bathrooms and details has far less experience then someone who has 2 years taking the lead on a project or being involved in the complete process...so what type of experience do you have? Just putting in years is not always justified-it depends on the quality of the time you have had. And if your current company isn't giving you quality time, then maybe it's time to move to a company that will- though again, unfortunately, we are in a very bad time to move jobs if you have a safe job.
And if through your analysis you find you are still severely underpaid, then unfortunately, you probably won't get the raise at that company. They are more than likely not going to bring your pay up to the others...they will prob. only give you a small raise if that. The best way to make a significant jump in salary other than a promotion is to switch companies and then ask for what you think you are worth. But again, this is a hard time to be asking for more money.
I do think architects should be worth more-they are smart...don't get me wrong there...but I do think doctors are smarter-yes a different kind of smart, but I think theirs is harder to grasp than ours. But, architecture as a profession needs to take more on to be eligible for more money-since we have let the engineering aspect go, and are liable for less in that matter, owners want to pay more to those that ensure their building stands up and their systems work. You can hate that statement all you want, but engineers have more liability than architects, and with more liability comes more money, so until the architecture world takes on more liability, they will continue to make less money.
Hello all~
Thx for the comments - greatly appreciated!
I really don't consider myself having 2yrs experience...I chalk it up to about 4 with working part time while in a 5yr program. Hell, I was even drafting for a firm before I decided to go to arch school. The type of experience I had while in school was in a couple of res arch firms for min. 20hrs a week mainly drafting, the occasional design problem, constr. mgmt and building the projects I was drafting/designing.
As I have said in most of my interviews, I have a lot more experience than your typical college grad. Some firms understood - some didn't. My first job offer out of school was 52k/yr in a sm office(I asked for 50k) I gladly took the job but I ended up being the office mgr, project mgr, cad mgr and mentor to people older and less experienced than myself. After a mth I decided I needed a mentor and left the position for a 50k job(which is where I am now) I LOVE my job and would never dream of leaving at this point. I just feel I deserve more since Ive taken on a lot of unexpected responsibility. The transportation jobs we are working on are the first ones of that kind in our office. They are bringing in the big money...the constant money...the guaranteed money!
I'm thinking Ill wait till the economy picks up a little to ask for the raise...just not sure if I should tell them how I feel now or just wait for the economy....or till next review. Which ever comes first.
I don't think AGE should really matter in the 21st century...EXPERIENCE will get the job done...and that's what brings in the bux, right? And just cause I have a B Arch??? Am I suppose to have a masters as well?(+50,000loans) Or do you prefer a non-related degree and a 2yr masters of arch? LOL
I don't think we should make 6 figures either, but I would be nice to be able to pay off my school loans before I reach the age of 60...Im 28. - And yes, Grad school is out of the question.
Also I apologize to anyone who is offended by my spelling and grammar....I'm busy at work and don't have the time/money to have my secretary proof read my message board posts.
Thx to all for taking time out of their busy day to read my long posts. You rawk!
TIM - sorry...no positions open at my firm....we just laid off 5 people a mth ago...hence the whole "i think I deserve a raise thingy"
tinydancer, my abbreviated TD was for the poster T D, not you.
Good long post, BTW.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you need to learn some negotiation skills in order to get a better raise. It is a part of the game, and perhaps you are not experienced in negotiation yet given the few years of experience under your belt. I don't think your wages are awful, especially in this economy, but you lost your opportunity to make a case for a higher wage. Even in this economy, some firms are willing to pay extra for a good worker who can produce good, quality work. Some firms would rather lay off other less than stellar workers to keep the better paid employees.
For the future, you should know that raises are always negotiable. Don't listen to other people here that say that you should be happy with what you have. You'll never move up with that attitude, and you'll definitely never get adequate raises if you follow that advice. This is, after all, business, and you need to think like a business person if you want to get paid a decent salary.
What I've found useful is always having a raise amount in my head before the big meeting...I've usually assume a 10% to 15% increase from my existing salary. You should also have a long list of achievements you've completed for the firm throughout the past year. Stay positive, talk about how much you enjoy the work you do, and talk about your commitment to the firm. If they offer an amount below the number you have in your head, thank them for the offer, but indicate that based on your accomplishments and increased responsibility, you believe you should make XXX amount (based on the number you previously had in your head). If they matched or pass the number in your head, you should respond the same way (some disappointment), and add a few extra thousand to their number. The number can always be negotiated. If they say they cannot do that (given the financial climate), then you can always request another review in, say, 4 months to review another possibility for a raise again. The point is that you should *always* ask for more than what they're offering. It never hurts to ask.
Good luck.
ArchiTEKE, as someone who was once in a similar position, I have learned that the other side of the coin is that you may be an *experienced* grad, but really only the post-grad full-time experience can be counted on. Hence my saying you only have 2 years post-grad experience. That is what counts, in reality.
thats $53,500 more than I make
sorry MARCH ...i see that you beat me to the punch
haha
project architect for transportation projects with 4 yrs. should be making more than 53k period
get your license, wait for the upturn and peg them for 70+. If they don't give ...walk to a bigger firm doing transportation....you'll get it.
I had the following experience in the Bay Area a few years back, with four years' experience: successful job interview, we started discussing pay. The interviewer asks me how much I want. I say $55,000, which was $10,000 more than I was making at a firm back east at the time.
The interviewer gives me a funny look, gets up, closes the door, and sits back down. "We'll offer you $65,000," he says quietly. $10,000 more than I'd asked for! I later found out that he was embarrassed at how low my request was. And that a guy in the firm with less experience than me was making $75,000. After one year, I was up to that amount.
The point is that pay can vary RADICALLY from city to city. And that you never know how much you can get until you try.
The Bay are is one of the most empensive places to live outside on NY.
The critique did not claim offense, only that "it's hard to take someone seriously with so many basic spelling and grammar mistakes." And he's right.
You're the one who appears to be offended by some basic, legitimate criticism. Others manage to write clearly without multiple mistakes; you can, too. I'd wager nobody here has a secretary to proof their writing; instead, they choose to think and take some care.
If you really want to be taken more seriously as a professional, start writing like one... rather than excusing laziness and poking the critic.
WOW! - Now I remember why I don't post here anymore.
Thanks for everyone for your criticism. I really do appreciate it.
merry xmas archiTEKE :) neva mind about and negatives tolk :)
UPDATE:
Had my meeting today with the big guns. And I just wanted to personally thank cadcroupier and farwest1 for your useful and motivational responses. As well as everyone else who responded, its just that cadcroupier and farwest1 added the crucial information!
I decided to walk into the meeting just to let them know where I stand, I understand the economy is in the shithouse, what I know about average pay for trans projects is higher than the norm, and that I didnt call this meeting to ask for a raise.
-What I walked out of the meeting with was a 7% pay increase
-52k to 55.5k - I AM STOKED!
I truely see where I stand in this firm......
Did I ever tell anyone that I love my job? Well I do!
Merry Xmas to you too, Moody - and a Happy New Year!
Congratulations, 'TEKE. That's good news.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.