i ve talked with several professors and architect friends about my portfolio, none of them thought it is my portfolio's problem. actually all of them said my porfolio was good.
also it s not my skill set's problem too. i have proficiency in AutoCAD, 3d max, Maya, Sketch up, Rhino, Photoshop, Illustrator...
but the fact that i do not have working experience may be a big problem at this moment, coz there are plenty of people who are experienced are looking for job too...
favonian.....i recently graduated and i ve been looking for a job the last three months....i ve only had interviews with people who want me to work for free.....where did you find these job openings???if i were you i would take the job...cause you get experience and at least you ll have something to write on your resume...and you can look for another job at the same time....
i just sent out hundreds of applications...and after long time, came these emails about the internships...
but do u think working for free is a good idea?
things seems got worse though...coz in sep and oct i still got several onsite interviews with big corporate firms, which all ended up with hiring freeze and actually laying off though. but since november there s almost no interview notice other than things like " we r not hiring, but we d like to meet u since we may hire in the future"
things did get worse ...at my previous firm there were a couple of rounds of layoffs, the first one in Sept. ...and the second one in the beginning of Nov. and there's talk of another one around the corner.
plus its the holidays so no one wants to hire just yet ...after the holidays things should get a little better
the way i see it....instead of sitting around doing nothing at least you are gaining experience...even if you 're not getting paid for it....i didn't take the offers that i had for unpaid internships...cause i've been doing applications for grad schools...but after x-mas if someone offers me any kind of job i ll take it...good luck with everything!
same here, i started applications to other programs several days earlier...it s kind of weird though....more more master program...and i have to re-take gre in jan, since the one i took was expired...
True... This is a bad time of the year to be looking for a job, even when the economy is booming. Nobody is going to make hiring decisions two weeks before Christmas, but things may start to move after the new year.
Also, instead of sending out "hundreds" of letters to every firm in the phone book, be more selective about who you send your materials to, and personalize your letter to each firm. Sounds like you're using a shotgun when you need a sniper rifle. Send your stuff to firms that do work you have a genuine interest in, and make sure your interest in their work is conveyed in your letter and work samples. Employers can spot a generic form letter a mile away, and they'll put exactly as much effort into reading that letter as you put into writing it.
It's good to have professors look at your portfolio, but also have professors look at your resume and cover letter. If those have issues, your prospective employer will never give you the chance to show them your portfolio. Even a single typo will send up a huge red flag.
I'd also include a couple work samples that demonstrate your skills with AutoCAD, Rhino, etc. If possible, make the work relevant to the type of work your prospective employer does. If you did a thesis project based on affordable housing and you're sending a letter to a firm that does a lot of affordable housing work, then make sure they see a glimpse of that project. One page of work samples should be sufficient; don't bother sending your entire portfolio on CD-ROM or via a website link, because they'll never look at it. Give them just enough to make them want to see more.
If you really want to work in NYC, it's best to move here first and then start getting in touch with firms. I've moved to NYC twice without a job, and each time nobody gave me the time of day until I had a New York return address on my letter. And that was during boom times. Same probably applies to most other large cities... You might actually have better luck in a smaller city that isn't as much of a destination for recent grads. Consider Seattle... Last I heard, their real estate market was still in half-decent shape and stuff is still being built.
Also consider firms that focus on healthcare, higher ed, affordable housing, and infrastructure work... Those market sectors tend to have longer lead times, and are more stable than speculative developer projects, high-end residential, etc.
Finally, look for work that isn't necessarily in a traditional architecture firm. If you're as much of an expert in AutoCAD, Maya, Rhino, etc. as you say you are, you might find work at a community college teaching those programs, or with a special effects or video game outfit. Consider doing CAD monkey work for contractors, developers, or real estate people; or graphic design work for an ad agency. Most temp agencies usually have a market for your skills. It will probably be shit work, but at least it will provide experience and pay the bills until something better comes along.
One more thing: Don't limit yourself to firms that have posted job openings. The vast majority of open positions are not advertised, and some architect may not even realize he needs some extra help until your letter lands in his hand.
Here's my advice, and its how I got employed with my current job.
Actually walk into an office, and see if you can't hand a person in HR or if its a small firm, a Principal or hiring partner a copy of your resume, flash them some work samples and see if you can come in for a formal interview. It is so much more difficult for someone to flat-out reject you in person than ignore you via email.
Yo grid F you for saying that. I wish I had that opportunity. I couldn't get a gig like dat fo 4 years. I had to do all dis other gigs and couldnt even get a stamped architect to helpz. Id work fo free if anyone wanted me to.
Fav- What I'm about to say isn't intended to take a poke at you, but your circumstance can help some other people learn how to increase their chances of getting a job that are still in school. Get experience while you are in school!!!!! By the time that I had graduated from undergrad, I had 3.5 years of experience. I got a job right away and I can't tell you how much it helped in getting other jobs. I moved to NYC right after grad school and I was lucky enough to get hired the day that I drove my Uhaul into the city. The ONLY reason that I was this lucky is because of a connection that I had from a previous job. My connection put me in contact with three people that were starting their own firm. Networking is a huge part of getting hired and if you have no connection to NYC in any sense, I think you basically forced to live here before you really try to get hired here.
Getting experience before you graduate from school (besides from just making logical sense) will give you insight into what size firm you will want to work for. Also, it will give you insight into what style of firm you will want to work for (stuck up, uptight or laid back). Some people may say that style and size are connected, but you get the point.
First, try to get your foot in the door. An intern can mean two different things when you are working for a firm and you need to know what type of intern any given firm is looking for. You could end up organizing material libraries and/or binders. This may sound harsh, but it is honest. After finishing grad school, you should be ready to work on a design team. Having no experience, I would argue that there is no way that you can be ready to be on a design team because you haven't worked for a firm. So, you are almost forced to be support staff (model builders, office assistant, etc). If was a construction boom, maybe firms would hire someone that doesn't have any experience (if they were from Harvard, etc).
21Ronin, that' not necessarily true. When I went to work as an "intern" for a small firm (1 arch, 2 drafters/project assistants, 1 sec) and the other drafter left for greener pastures, I found myself doing the kinds of things project managers do! I was training new staff (with only 3 month experience myself), coordinating with contractors, doing site visits, meeting with clients and generally was in charge of getting all our project docs out to the necessary parties usually on really tight deadlines. Needless to say, 50 hour weeks were the norm for me all summer. with the occasional 60 hour week thrown in to. When I worked as an "intern" for a GC/Design Build I actually wound up managing guys in field on a project and doing site supervisory work on other jobs.
Being an "intern" in NYC doesn't necessarily mean being an office bitch and getting paid a slave wage, even while your still in school. None of my contemporaries who go to school full time have stuck around in grossly underpaid and abusive positions for longer than a couple of weeks and those who have found steady gigs are typically doing work similar to what I listed above. I shucked files and organized libraries for 3 summers and 3 winters during college working insurance, and I still got paid $10 an hour.
also, if you want to negotiate and or inquire about salary/benefits, be an adult and at least get on the phone if you can't get there in person... You're asking to get blown-off and disregarded by sending a passive email.
"$500 a month isn't even enough to rent an bench in Central Park"
Haha funny.
Puddles suggests that you take the job? Saying you have nothing to lose blah blah blah? Of course you have something to lose and u also aren't helping the people after you whom this pathetic firm will try to hire.
Also..there's something called self respect.
Sure you can learn a lot of crap blah blah..but honestly, a lot of the time, money in this world = power and if you take the $500 per month it's just showing how much of a doormat you are.
This is exactly why architects get paid like crap and will continue to get paid like crap.
Firstly, bankers and doods with $$$ control our industry..and then within our industry you have cheap bosses who will screw you over for $$$ because school has trained you to work like a dog, for free..because u "like" it.
I understand what you mean. I did not mean to say that this person should take a job that pays next to nothing ($500/mo) and just work their way up. But what I am saying is favonian has not put himself/herself in the position to compete. Architecture is a competitive profession (as we all know). In order to be competitive, one major factor is experience. I am not saying that experience measures competence. I know this for a fact because I know a project manager that is as incompetent as George Bush is/was. He is completely messing up the project that he is working on and he has 5 years experience. Portfolio will get your foot in the door, but the majority of schools do not prepare you for the office environment or pace. Again, most postings on Archinect will provide a range of desired experience for a reason. Portfolio, experience and connections get your foot in the door. Work ethic, performance and social interactions will maintain your job or get you fired.
In addition to not putting himself/herself in a position to compete, in my opinion, completing grad school w/o working in the profession means that they have not pursued architecture as a realistic career. School prepares you for certain things, but one major flaw of architectural education is the lack of business and legal focus. Decisions in an office are often defensive (to protect one's self against lawsuit) and it could even negatively impact the project. Being able to negotiate design integrity, safety, clients desires, budget and time are all factors that need to be made in real time. Being fresh to an office environment means that there will be a learning curve that a lot of firms do not want to pay for. That is another reason why our profession has as many problems as it does. Learning continues after you graduate and so many architects and firms do not want to teach. That's a reality and it can shape the way that firms hire and fire. Even worse, it will affect the options that favonian will have.
21Ronin ... just a question re. your comment what arch school doesn't prepare you for .... could you elaborate on what you mean by 'pace' ?
Am just finishing the semester at school ... and feel so goddamn burnt out , but keep telling myself that this is an artificial pace , and that real work will be somewhat normal.... if the pace at school is all nighters , malnutrition , more all nighters , the qaulity of work often reflecting this wretched pace.... is the workworld really worse in that respect? .. or does school pace just fuck you up so much that then you feel the work pace is normal compared with school , though in reality skewed compared with other professions?
i can't take any more pace . ...
It's not your problem or your portfolios problem that why they would offer you $500/ month at NYC. It is because too many so called "star-architects" or pseudo star-architects are a$$os. They totally understand that young men/ women in this profession need some experience in good firms and notable projects to build up their resume and find a better job later. So they kidnap young men/ women like what these pirates doing in Somalia: give your cheap labor (the ransom) if you want any experience (the boat) in my firm.
Don't work for them.
If you are confident on yourself, why should you have to be proved by these mean "star-architects". Find another place who would pay interns in the reasonable rate. And you will learn a lot from the architects treat themselves as humanbeings rather than these "star-architects" thought themselves as shining rocks.
I haven't even received my B.Arch yet but when I was offered $600/ month for the summer I pretty much ended the conversation right there.
Funny thing is the 600 offer was from a regular architect and a later a "star" architect offered 3 times as much, which barely allowed me to break even living in the city. Don't generalize and avoid any firms you might want to work for, but definitely look at the numbers!
you are way better off trying to find a job that is less than perfect (ie average firm) that pays reasonably where you already live than spending all of your money to move to nyc to take a job where they couldn't care less about you or your well-being. you'll end up in ridiculous debt. don't forget about the cost of moving, security deposits, all the fees to relocate and set up utilities and get started in a new land. plus, who is to say they won't toss you in two months should the economy get even worse? then what will you do? plus all you really need is experience. a year in an average place where they actually respect you enough to pay you for your time, intellect and production is going to be better for you than a year of constantly worrying about finances and hoping and wishing they'll hire you full time.
i find unpaid and low-paid internships just another example of how the rich get richer and more powerful and the rest of us just have to do what we can. what if all jobs post-masters degree were underpaid? how many of us could afford to live in nyc, much less relocate there? how many of us would still be architects?
The pace at school is completely different than the pace at work. This depends on what type of clients that you work for. If you are unlucky enough to work for developers (as the client), you will have a ridiculous pace and they will cut corners (on the design) every chance they get. It really depends on what type of work that you will do, but in NYC, there are a lot of developers and a lot of condo buildings. Studios in school can compare to the pace of the real world in some aspects. Similar to school, you have deadlines and a lot of people have to spend a lot of nights in the office. The structure of an office can very easily make it just as stressful as school. Not worse.....just different.
Intern salary in NYC
living in Gin-
thanks for advice.
i ve talked with several professors and architect friends about my portfolio, none of them thought it is my portfolio's problem. actually all of them said my porfolio was good.
also it s not my skill set's problem too. i have proficiency in AutoCAD, 3d max, Maya, Sketch up, Rhino, Photoshop, Illustrator...
but the fact that i do not have working experience may be a big problem at this moment, coz there are plenty of people who are experienced are looking for job too...
favonian.....i recently graduated and i ve been looking for a job the last three months....i ve only had interviews with people who want me to work for free.....where did you find these job openings???if i were you i would take the job...cause you get experience and at least you ll have something to write on your resume...and you can look for another job at the same time....
nickthegreek,
i just sent out hundreds of applications...and after long time, came these emails about the internships...
but do u think working for free is a good idea?
things seems got worse though...coz in sep and oct i still got several onsite interviews with big corporate firms, which all ended up with hiring freeze and actually laying off though. but since november there s almost no interview notice other than things like " we r not hiring, but we d like to meet u since we may hire in the future"
things did get worse ...at my previous firm there were a couple of rounds of layoffs, the first one in Sept. ...and the second one in the beginning of Nov. and there's talk of another one around the corner.
plus its the holidays so no one wants to hire just yet ...after the holidays things should get a little better
the way i see it....instead of sitting around doing nothing at least you are gaining experience...even if you 're not getting paid for it....i didn't take the offers that i had for unpaid internships...cause i've been doing applications for grad schools...but after x-mas if someone offers me any kind of job i ll take it...good luck with everything!
nick-
same here, i started applications to other programs several days earlier...it s kind of weird though....more more master program...and i have to re-take gre in jan, since the one i took was expired...
mistake in typing...one more master program
True... This is a bad time of the year to be looking for a job, even when the economy is booming. Nobody is going to make hiring decisions two weeks before Christmas, but things may start to move after the new year.
Also, instead of sending out "hundreds" of letters to every firm in the phone book, be more selective about who you send your materials to, and personalize your letter to each firm. Sounds like you're using a shotgun when you need a sniper rifle. Send your stuff to firms that do work you have a genuine interest in, and make sure your interest in their work is conveyed in your letter and work samples. Employers can spot a generic form letter a mile away, and they'll put exactly as much effort into reading that letter as you put into writing it.
It's good to have professors look at your portfolio, but also have professors look at your resume and cover letter. If those have issues, your prospective employer will never give you the chance to show them your portfolio. Even a single typo will send up a huge red flag.
I'd also include a couple work samples that demonstrate your skills with AutoCAD, Rhino, etc. If possible, make the work relevant to the type of work your prospective employer does. If you did a thesis project based on affordable housing and you're sending a letter to a firm that does a lot of affordable housing work, then make sure they see a glimpse of that project. One page of work samples should be sufficient; don't bother sending your entire portfolio on CD-ROM or via a website link, because they'll never look at it. Give them just enough to make them want to see more.
If you really want to work in NYC, it's best to move here first and then start getting in touch with firms. I've moved to NYC twice without a job, and each time nobody gave me the time of day until I had a New York return address on my letter. And that was during boom times. Same probably applies to most other large cities... You might actually have better luck in a smaller city that isn't as much of a destination for recent grads. Consider Seattle... Last I heard, their real estate market was still in half-decent shape and stuff is still being built.
Also consider firms that focus on healthcare, higher ed, affordable housing, and infrastructure work... Those market sectors tend to have longer lead times, and are more stable than speculative developer projects, high-end residential, etc.
Finally, look for work that isn't necessarily in a traditional architecture firm. If you're as much of an expert in AutoCAD, Maya, Rhino, etc. as you say you are, you might find work at a community college teaching those programs, or with a special effects or video game outfit. Consider doing CAD monkey work for contractors, developers, or real estate people; or graphic design work for an ad agency. Most temp agencies usually have a market for your skills. It will probably be shit work, but at least it will provide experience and pay the bills until something better comes along.
One more thing: Don't limit yourself to firms that have posted job openings. The vast majority of open positions are not advertised, and some architect may not even realize he needs some extra help until your letter lands in his hand.
Here's my advice, and its how I got employed with my current job.
Actually walk into an office, and see if you can't hand a person in HR or if its a small firm, a Principal or hiring partner a copy of your resume, flash them some work samples and see if you can come in for a formal interview. It is so much more difficult for someone to flat-out reject you in person than ignore you via email.
just take the offer and get your idp out of the way....
^ bad advice
Yo grid F you for saying that. I wish I had that opportunity. I couldn't get a gig like dat fo 4 years. I had to do all dis other gigs and couldnt even get a stamped architect to helpz. Id work fo free if anyone wanted me to.
b
hahahah....... poser
Fav- What I'm about to say isn't intended to take a poke at you, but your circumstance can help some other people learn how to increase their chances of getting a job that are still in school. Get experience while you are in school!!!!! By the time that I had graduated from undergrad, I had 3.5 years of experience. I got a job right away and I can't tell you how much it helped in getting other jobs. I moved to NYC right after grad school and I was lucky enough to get hired the day that I drove my Uhaul into the city. The ONLY reason that I was this lucky is because of a connection that I had from a previous job. My connection put me in contact with three people that were starting their own firm. Networking is a huge part of getting hired and if you have no connection to NYC in any sense, I think you basically forced to live here before you really try to get hired here.
Getting experience before you graduate from school (besides from just making logical sense) will give you insight into what size firm you will want to work for. Also, it will give you insight into what style of firm you will want to work for (stuck up, uptight or laid back). Some people may say that style and size are connected, but you get the point.
First, try to get your foot in the door. An intern can mean two different things when you are working for a firm and you need to know what type of intern any given firm is looking for. You could end up organizing material libraries and/or binders. This may sound harsh, but it is honest. After finishing grad school, you should be ready to work on a design team. Having no experience, I would argue that there is no way that you can be ready to be on a design team because you haven't worked for a firm. So, you are almost forced to be support staff (model builders, office assistant, etc). If was a construction boom, maybe firms would hire someone that doesn't have any experience (if they were from Harvard, etc).
21Ronin, that' not necessarily true. When I went to work as an "intern" for a small firm (1 arch, 2 drafters/project assistants, 1 sec) and the other drafter left for greener pastures, I found myself doing the kinds of things project managers do! I was training new staff (with only 3 month experience myself), coordinating with contractors, doing site visits, meeting with clients and generally was in charge of getting all our project docs out to the necessary parties usually on really tight deadlines. Needless to say, 50 hour weeks were the norm for me all summer. with the occasional 60 hour week thrown in to. When I worked as an "intern" for a GC/Design Build I actually wound up managing guys in field on a project and doing site supervisory work on other jobs.
Being an "intern" in NYC doesn't necessarily mean being an office bitch and getting paid a slave wage, even while your still in school. None of my contemporaries who go to school full time have stuck around in grossly underpaid and abusive positions for longer than a couple of weeks and those who have found steady gigs are typically doing work similar to what I listed above. I shucked files and organized libraries for 3 summers and 3 winters during college working insurance, and I still got paid $10 an hour.
also, if you want to negotiate and or inquire about salary/benefits, be an adult and at least get on the phone if you can't get there in person... You're asking to get blown-off and disregarded by sending a passive email.
"$500 a month isn't even enough to rent an bench in Central Park"
Haha funny.
Puddles suggests that you take the job? Saying you have nothing to lose blah blah blah? Of course you have something to lose and u also aren't helping the people after you whom this pathetic firm will try to hire.
Also..there's something called self respect.
Sure you can learn a lot of crap blah blah..but honestly, a lot of the time, money in this world = power and if you take the $500 per month it's just showing how much of a doormat you are.
This is exactly why architects get paid like crap and will continue to get paid like crap.
Firstly, bankers and doods with $$$ control our industry..and then within our industry you have cheap bosses who will screw you over for $$$ because school has trained you to work like a dog, for free..because u "like" it.
Apurimac-
I understand what you mean. I did not mean to say that this person should take a job that pays next to nothing ($500/mo) and just work their way up. But what I am saying is favonian has not put himself/herself in the position to compete. Architecture is a competitive profession (as we all know). In order to be competitive, one major factor is experience. I am not saying that experience measures competence. I know this for a fact because I know a project manager that is as incompetent as George Bush is/was. He is completely messing up the project that he is working on and he has 5 years experience. Portfolio will get your foot in the door, but the majority of schools do not prepare you for the office environment or pace. Again, most postings on Archinect will provide a range of desired experience for a reason. Portfolio, experience and connections get your foot in the door. Work ethic, performance and social interactions will maintain your job or get you fired.
In addition to not putting himself/herself in a position to compete, in my opinion, completing grad school w/o working in the profession means that they have not pursued architecture as a realistic career. School prepares you for certain things, but one major flaw of architectural education is the lack of business and legal focus. Decisions in an office are often defensive (to protect one's self against lawsuit) and it could even negatively impact the project. Being able to negotiate design integrity, safety, clients desires, budget and time are all factors that need to be made in real time. Being fresh to an office environment means that there will be a learning curve that a lot of firms do not want to pay for. That is another reason why our profession has as many problems as it does. Learning continues after you graduate and so many architects and firms do not want to teach. That's a reality and it can shape the way that firms hire and fire. Even worse, it will affect the options that favonian will have.
21Ronin ... just a question re. your comment what arch school doesn't prepare you for .... could you elaborate on what you mean by 'pace' ?
Am just finishing the semester at school ... and feel so goddamn burnt out , but keep telling myself that this is an artificial pace , and that real work will be somewhat normal.... if the pace at school is all nighters , malnutrition , more all nighters , the qaulity of work often reflecting this wretched pace.... is the workworld really worse in that respect? .. or does school pace just fuck you up so much that then you feel the work pace is normal compared with school , though in reality skewed compared with other professions?
i can't take any more pace . ...
favonian
It's not your problem or your portfolios problem that why they would offer you $500/ month at NYC. It is because too many so called "star-architects" or pseudo star-architects are a$$os. They totally understand that young men/ women in this profession need some experience in good firms and notable projects to build up their resume and find a better job later. So they kidnap young men/ women like what these pirates doing in Somalia: give your cheap labor (the ransom) if you want any experience (the boat) in my firm.
Don't work for them.
If you are confident on yourself, why should you have to be proved by these mean "star-architects". Find another place who would pay interns in the reasonable rate. And you will learn a lot from the architects treat themselves as humanbeings rather than these "star-architects" thought themselves as shining rocks.
favonian
I haven't even received my B.Arch yet but when I was offered $600/ month for the summer I pretty much ended the conversation right there.
Funny thing is the 600 offer was from a regular architect and a later a "star" architect offered 3 times as much, which barely allowed me to break even living in the city. Don't generalize and avoid any firms you might want to work for, but definitely look at the numbers!
you are way better off trying to find a job that is less than perfect (ie average firm) that pays reasonably where you already live than spending all of your money to move to nyc to take a job where they couldn't care less about you or your well-being. you'll end up in ridiculous debt. don't forget about the cost of moving, security deposits, all the fees to relocate and set up utilities and get started in a new land. plus, who is to say they won't toss you in two months should the economy get even worse? then what will you do? plus all you really need is experience. a year in an average place where they actually respect you enough to pay you for your time, intellect and production is going to be better for you than a year of constantly worrying about finances and hoping and wishing they'll hire you full time.
i find unpaid and low-paid internships just another example of how the rich get richer and more powerful and the rest of us just have to do what we can. what if all jobs post-masters degree were underpaid? how many of us could afford to live in nyc, much less relocate there? how many of us would still be architects?
The pace at school is completely different than the pace at work. This depends on what type of clients that you work for. If you are unlucky enough to work for developers (as the client), you will have a ridiculous pace and they will cut corners (on the design) every chance they get. It really depends on what type of work that you will do, but in NYC, there are a lot of developers and a lot of condo buildings. Studios in school can compare to the pace of the real world in some aspects. Similar to school, you have deadlines and a lot of people have to spend a lot of nights in the office. The structure of an office can very easily make it just as stressful as school. Not worse.....just different.
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