Here's a hypothetical situation for all you archinecteurs:
Let's say you were an experienced, licensed architect that has won awards, been published, and had a kick-ass portfolio but recently left a mid-size design-oriented arch firm for a larger a/e firm for much better pay.
OK - now let's say that during your interview, the large a/e firm named two or three specific projects that you would be perfect for leading the design and management effort on and that the firm was in the midst of changing its image from a corporate a/e firm to a more creative & collaborative atmosphere. You would also be playing a large role in infusing creativity throughout the office, given your work experience and portfolio.
After agreeing on salary and a start date (giving plenty of notice at your previous office because you are a professional and know not to burn bridges), you arrive for your first day at the new a/e firm only to find out that those enticing two or three projects are gone/not happening and instead you will be taking over the PA/PM role on two very mediocre and uninspiring projects with crummy budgets.
Would you be pissed? What recourse do you have (given the current economic situation)?
BTW this is not happening to me, but to a friend of mine that recently moved to a new city in the midwest (ok, it's Chicago). She wants to bolt, but doesn't want to be labeled as a job hopper (the a/e job is her second in 18mo).
I would be interested in hearing from both the employee and employer sides of the argument.
No offense to your friend but Im sure the large A/E firm decided in some corporate boardroom to find a creative designer and lets saddle them with mundane and boring work. That makes absolutly no sense from their perspective. Maybe said designer is slightly delusional or doesnt quite understand what Chicago Architects do that makes Chicago architecture?
i wouldn't bolt. did your friend ask about the likelihood these projects would take place? its a different animal out there, funding disappears in days now. certainly it's not the firms fault they aren't going forward. the fact that they chase good projects and that they want to infuse more design into the office are good things. i think your friend should sit down with someone there and ask about it. ask whether or not the projects are gone because of financial reasons, ask whether or not the firm will continue to look for these types of projects? ask them if she will have a chance to lead an upcoming project. depending on these answers she should know whether to go or stay...but i'd give them a pass here, the economy is no joke
I would hope that this individual made the decision to change jobs based on more than those two or three projects they mentioned at an interview. Sounds like she may have made an uninformed decision and is now regretting it.
I am not nearly as experienced as this person, but I had a similar situation. I was faced with the choice of two different offices, one was in the process of changing its image and I would, in their words, help that effort a great deal. The other offer was an office that wasn't changing their image and in their words I would be a great fit for them. I went with the latter of the two and am glad I did... often times an office that is "in the process of changing from a to b" is not the best one to go to. Fundamental change like that is difficult and takes a long time.
well, if the firm was truly interested in really changing their culture (and presumably some of their work) then i'd suggest she seize the opportunity and start marketing to help pull in the jobs she wants.
she'll have the depth and backup of a large office to go fishing
basically, turn it into a opportunity to act like a principal and she could be setting up her own studio.
i doubt they lied to her crizzler. Most professional employers are not that disingenuous as to lie to potential employees just to get them to sign up. It makes no sense. As MArch said, it is a different animal out there right now, and most architecture firms are scared to death right now. They are losing projects left and right and in turn having to make painful decisions about laying people off just to stay afloat.
Not knowing all the details of her experience, let's consider this:
She interviewed at the firm; firm identified some pending "perfect fit" assignments for her position. Firm made an offer; she accepted but without confirming and monitoring her specific assignments and responsibilities. She "gives plenty of notice", but doesn't maintain frequent contact with the firm. Meanwhile economy tanks, many building projects have quickly disappeared or died, because the clients can't/won't move forward. She now arrives at new firm, but is disappointed to find the exciting projects are gone and the mundane projects are now her responsibility.
She's upset; but it's not necessarily "bait and switch".
I agree with El Jeffe; it's an opportunity for her to "act like a principal", prove her worth, show some leadership skills, and chase work. Now is not the time to be a prima donna, expecting the good assignments, etc. Now's the time to show some maturity and responsibility.
Recourse? Well, she should have been monitoring the firm's assignment as the market tanked. Now she should be happy she's still employed, and be a good team player for the new team. Should she bolt? Well where could she "bolt", but the lay-offs are coming hard and fast in Chicago, and people are happy to get the boring assignments that keep them employed. A boring A/E firm will provide more employement security opportunity than a "kick-ass" design firm. A teaching gig at UICC or IIT doesn't pay a living wage.
when was the interview
when did they know the projects left
when did she start..
etc....
i would still be pissed though if some firm hired me to work on some hottness but then tossed me on designing union halls. i'm sure the firm could have called her to let her know that the projects fell through. this way she could have decided to stay at the existing firm or relocate.
yup, suck it up and be grateful that the firm is at least interested in having her head up a company change.
Given the economy, I am guessing it would not be hard for them to replace her.
I'd put my money on #1 projects either died or are on indefinite hold and #2 that they might also want to see how she performs before handing the reigns over to her (which I would do if I were them).
She performs well, stimulates ongoing discussion about the changes, proposes creative things to do in the slow time to help prepare for the other side of this mess (like implementing 3D for presentations, overseeing graphic changes and consistency, etc., etc.).
Lastly, you aren't just going to get higher pay for the same job. You'll have to learn to play by their rules and strategically interject ideas for improvement.
Sounds like she entered into things with a little naivety. She should be happy she's getting paid more in this disaster of an economy.
Now is not the time to get pissy with employers. I think she needs to have a heart to heart with the people that interviewed her but I would imagine that even the firm she left is glad they have one less staffer to pay. its tough out there and a time for new beginnings so I would suck it up princess. The alternatives available for the next little while will be minimal at best.
that the firm was in the midst of changing its image from a corporate a/e firm to a more creative & collaborative atmosphere
this statement is a bit of a warning sign... she can help lead the charge, but unless the principals are on board (meaning, they are actively involved in restructuring management, not just in the hiring of talent), it's going to be a very difficult process and she'll have to tread lightly. the only way to gain any clout in that kind of environment is by actively bringing in work.
I can name two people on this board - one of them me - who were more than a year into our jobs and very, very dissatisfied. Two years later we are both very happy.
Changes are slow. Your friend should continue slowly pushing for the things she wants, but in the meantime be hardworking, cheerful, and grateful to be employed.
"...left a mid-size design-oriented arch firm for a larger a/e firm for much better pay."
it sounds to me like there is the possibility of someone looking for money and then trying to rationalize the design aspect of the job switch. that's easy to do when looking but somewhat more difficult to deal with after making the move and realizing the price to be paid on a daily basis.
there's certainly nothing wrong with making a choice because of money...you just need to be honest with yourself about it. as an old co-worker of mine liked to say, "if you take the king's money, then you fight the king's wars."
I love the archinect detective work! No, this is a friend of mine from arch school that stayed on the east coast.
I've pretty much been giving her the same advice as I'm reading from all of you. I'm just looking for something new to tell her the next time she starts griping...
while I think cadcroupier is indeed a cad with some latent womyn hate, I agree that she should step up and own this 'transitional period' and just make it her own.
I think she should quit....and have fun searching for that "ideal" job in this market.
I don't have much patience for the "I'm a designer" type people that think they're above the mundane "uninspiring" work with "crummy" budgets. That's architecture, get freaking used to it. There are plenty of people getting laid off that would love your job. Now is not the time to get picky with what projects you're working on.
peridot....you are right I am a cad...but no womyn hating here.
Like many here, it gets under my skin when I hear a person gripping about what sounds like a great opportunity (albiet not perfect).
I mean this person has a license, so what is stopping her from hanging out a shingle? My guess is that she doesn't have a clue as to how work comes in (and invariably leaves) an office. Which is why she is preoccupied with feelings of being tricked or betrayed by this firm.
Dec 5, 08 1:39 pm ·
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bait n' switch by new employer?
Here's a hypothetical situation for all you archinecteurs:
Let's say you were an experienced, licensed architect that has won awards, been published, and had a kick-ass portfolio but recently left a mid-size design-oriented arch firm for a larger a/e firm for much better pay.
OK - now let's say that during your interview, the large a/e firm named two or three specific projects that you would be perfect for leading the design and management effort on and that the firm was in the midst of changing its image from a corporate a/e firm to a more creative & collaborative atmosphere. You would also be playing a large role in infusing creativity throughout the office, given your work experience and portfolio.
After agreeing on salary and a start date (giving plenty of notice at your previous office because you are a professional and know not to burn bridges), you arrive for your first day at the new a/e firm only to find out that those enticing two or three projects are gone/not happening and instead you will be taking over the PA/PM role on two very mediocre and uninspiring projects with crummy budgets.
Would you be pissed? What recourse do you have (given the current economic situation)?
BTW this is not happening to me, but to a friend of mine that recently moved to a new city in the midwest (ok, it's Chicago). She wants to bolt, but doesn't want to be labeled as a job hopper (the a/e job is her second in 18mo).
I would be interested in hearing from both the employee and employer sides of the argument.
No offense to your friend but Im sure the large A/E firm decided in some corporate boardroom to find a creative designer and lets saddle them with mundane and boring work. That makes absolutly no sense from their perspective. Maybe said designer is slightly delusional or doesnt quite understand what Chicago Architects do that makes Chicago architecture?
i wouldn't bolt. did your friend ask about the likelihood these projects would take place? its a different animal out there, funding disappears in days now. certainly it's not the firms fault they aren't going forward. the fact that they chase good projects and that they want to infuse more design into the office are good things. i think your friend should sit down with someone there and ask about it. ask whether or not the projects are gone because of financial reasons, ask whether or not the firm will continue to look for these types of projects? ask them if she will have a chance to lead an upcoming project. depending on these answers she should know whether to go or stay...but i'd give them a pass here, the economy is no joke
I would hope that this individual made the decision to change jobs based on more than those two or three projects they mentioned at an interview. Sounds like she may have made an uninformed decision and is now regretting it.
I am not nearly as experienced as this person, but I had a similar situation. I was faced with the choice of two different offices, one was in the process of changing its image and I would, in their words, help that effort a great deal. The other offer was an office that wasn't changing their image and in their words I would be a great fit for them. I went with the latter of the two and am glad I did... often times an office that is "in the process of changing from a to b" is not the best one to go to. Fundamental change like that is difficult and takes a long time.
just my .02$
well, if the firm was truly interested in really changing their culture (and presumably some of their work) then i'd suggest she seize the opportunity and start marketing to help pull in the jobs she wants.
she'll have the depth and backup of a large office to go fishing
basically, turn it into a opportunity to act like a principal and she could be setting up her own studio.
you can put a-1 steak sauce on anything and it'll taste almost like steak
i would be pissed..... she should ask what happened to the projects...
technically they could have lied to her to get her to cover a seta...maybe some one else left and they needed to fill the spot asap....
i doubt they lied to her crizzler. Most professional employers are not that disingenuous as to lie to potential employees just to get them to sign up. It makes no sense. As MArch said, it is a different animal out there right now, and most architecture firms are scared to death right now. They are losing projects left and right and in turn having to make painful decisions about laying people off just to stay afloat.
Not knowing all the details of her experience, let's consider this:
She interviewed at the firm; firm identified some pending "perfect fit" assignments for her position. Firm made an offer; she accepted but without confirming and monitoring her specific assignments and responsibilities. She "gives plenty of notice", but doesn't maintain frequent contact with the firm. Meanwhile economy tanks, many building projects have quickly disappeared or died, because the clients can't/won't move forward. She now arrives at new firm, but is disappointed to find the exciting projects are gone and the mundane projects are now her responsibility.
She's upset; but it's not necessarily "bait and switch".
I agree with El Jeffe; it's an opportunity for her to "act like a principal", prove her worth, show some leadership skills, and chase work. Now is not the time to be a prima donna, expecting the good assignments, etc. Now's the time to show some maturity and responsibility.
Recourse? Well, she should have been monitoring the firm's assignment as the market tanked. Now she should be happy she's still employed, and be a good team player for the new team. Should she bolt? Well where could she "bolt", but the lay-offs are coming hard and fast in Chicago, and people are happy to get the boring assignments that keep them employed. A boring A/E firm will provide more employement security opportunity than a "kick-ass" design firm. A teaching gig at UICC or IIT doesn't pay a living wage.
I'd strike this as a life-lesson.
yup suck it up and wait for the recession to be over
we need a time line..
when was the interview
when did they know the projects left
when did she start..
etc....
i would still be pissed though if some firm hired me to work on some hottness but then tossed me on designing union halls. i'm sure the firm could have called her to let her know that the projects fell through. this way she could have decided to stay at the existing firm or relocate.
listen to anti....
yup, suck it up and be grateful that the firm is at least interested in having her head up a company change.
Given the economy, I am guessing it would not be hard for them to replace her.
I'd put my money on #1 projects either died or are on indefinite hold and #2 that they might also want to see how she performs before handing the reigns over to her (which I would do if I were them).
She performs well, stimulates ongoing discussion about the changes, proposes creative things to do in the slow time to help prepare for the other side of this mess (like implementing 3D for presentations, overseeing graphic changes and consistency, etc., etc.).
Lastly, you aren't just going to get higher pay for the same job. You'll have to learn to play by their rules and strategically interject ideas for improvement.
Sounds like she entered into things with a little naivety. She should be happy she's getting paid more in this disaster of an economy.
I wonder if she is a Blonde?
Now is not the time to get pissy with employers. I think she needs to have a heart to heart with the people that interviewed her but I would imagine that even the firm she left is glad they have one less staffer to pay. its tough out there and a time for new beginnings so I would suck it up princess. The alternatives available for the next little while will be minimal at best.
Not blonde- redhead.
I think she'll suck it up and ride it out for a while, though she does have some resentment and feels stuck in a new city and an unsatisfying job
this statement is a bit of a warning sign... she can help lead the charge, but unless the principals are on board (meaning, they are actively involved in restructuring management, not just in the hiring of talent), it's going to be a very difficult process and she'll have to tread lightly. the only way to gain any clout in that kind of environment is by actively bringing in work.
does she know you are posting stuff about her on a public forum? You've certainly given enough away in your posts to peg her.
Lets see:
1. Licensed redhead
2. who recently moved to chicago (probably from seattle...since that is where you are from)
3. from a design focused award winning mid-size firm ( Miller Hull and BCJ come to mind as seattle firms doing work in the mid west)
4. second job in 18 mo.
5. I'm guessing early 30's based on the general tone of the gripes.
anyway....she sounds like a spoiled brat....If it were me I'd be pumping 12 hr. days to show my gratitude.
I can name two people on this board - one of them me - who were more than a year into our jobs and very, very dissatisfied. Two years later we are both very happy.
Changes are slow. Your friend should continue slowly pushing for the things she wants, but in the meantime be hardworking, cheerful, and grateful to be employed.
it sounds to me like there is the possibility of someone looking for money and then trying to rationalize the design aspect of the job switch. that's easy to do when looking but somewhat more difficult to deal with after making the move and realizing the price to be paid on a daily basis.
there's certainly nothing wrong with making a choice because of money...you just need to be honest with yourself about it. as an old co-worker of mine liked to say, "if you take the king's money, then you fight the king's wars."
I love the archinect detective work! No, this is a friend of mine from arch school that stayed on the east coast.
I've pretty much been giving her the same advice as I'm reading from all of you. I'm just looking for something new to tell her the next time she starts griping...
Thanks to all
while I think cadcroupier is indeed a cad with some latent womyn hate, I agree that she should step up and own this 'transitional period' and just make it her own.
I think she should quit....and have fun searching for that "ideal" job in this market.
I don't have much patience for the "I'm a designer" type people that think they're above the mundane "uninspiring" work with "crummy" budgets. That's architecture, get freaking used to it. There are plenty of people getting laid off that would love your job. Now is not the time to get picky with what projects you're working on.
like a prostitute...
lick it down, like a pimp
peridot....you are right I am a cad...but no womyn hating here.
Like many here, it gets under my skin when I hear a person gripping about what sounds like a great opportunity (albiet not perfect).
I mean this person has a license, so what is stopping her from hanging out a shingle? My guess is that she doesn't have a clue as to how work comes in (and invariably leaves) an office. Which is why she is preoccupied with feelings of being tricked or betrayed by this firm.
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