I'm about to sign a contract for a small design build project for the City (actually a cultural office partnered with the city, but using city contract requirements).
The contract is for me to install three small "sculptures" (actually bus stops) in a larger site redevelopment plan. The larger project has a Project Architect. In my contract I'm being referred to as "the Artist" because they categorize the things I'm providing as "sculptures", though functional.
But that's the question: I'm providing the objects; I'm not only designing them, I'm fabricating, delivering, and installing them. The city refers to this as a "design-build" contract, typical for all their contracts with artists.
The question is, since I'm a licensed architect, when I venture out of traditional practice and into design-build, do I need a contractor's license?
(I'm finally getting E&O insurance for this job, so I'm trying to keep everything legit. And I'll have a structural engineer, too.)
Anyone been in a similar situation? I know it's a boring topic, but I appreciate advice!
But the city is contracting with me as an artist, not as an architect. They (via my contract) don't require artists to have a contractor's license, only insurance. It's my fear of personal liability - my state is one that doesn't allow corporation shielding for licensed professionals - that's making me wonder if I need a contractor's license.
I have not thought to check the state licensing board's thoughts on the topic, better go there now...
While professional liability insurance is good to have for design repercussions concerning E's and O's. It doesn't seem to be the right product for a "sculpture". For installation, you need general liability insurance, the requirements of which should be stated in the RFP.
As far as a license is concerned. This should also be stated in the RFP. Otherwise threshold is correct in refering you to the city. It amy also be required by the insurance co's.
Additionally you may find it difficult to get both Professional Liability and General Liability under one business entity. You might want to create a new LLC for the "Construction Co" you are creating for this project.
I would talk to some of the contractors you have relationships with and ask them for an insurance agent referral who can help you out with this.
This is from my personal experience on starting a design build co, that is not off the ground yet. Someone who actually works in db may have a better understanding of how the insurance works for that particular delivery method/ business entity.
Thanks wurdan. You are right that d/b as a particular delivery method is what concerns me, as I know there are specific requirements for an architect doing d/b. (Side note: this seems like one of those things my AIA membership should be able to help me with, right? I just came to the 'nect first out of habit.)
Per the city's contract I do need general liability, as well as workman's comp, and will have those things along with the E&O. And I'm doing this as a side project to my main (LLC) firm, to simplify these issues.
you should have the city buy the 'art' from you...' then 'hire' you to install it and sign off on any liabilites.
builders license is about 300 i think and a 3 hour test (test will take 45 mins)
then 2mill in insurance is about 800-1000 a year..... but insurance companies will be iffy to give anyone insurance these days.... took me 2 years to get insurance because i didnt have prior insurance..wtf...
I do worry a bit about that, criz, that they won't want to sell me E&O because I've not had it before. That rate (2mill, 800-1K) is exactly what my guy quoted me, though. The liability and workman's comp we have already.
As for your first sentence, they are actually buying the art from me after it's installed, so my liability basically ends at that point, though again I worry that being a licensed professional I still have liability even after transfer of ownership, since I AM and architect, even though for the purposes of this contract I'm an artist.
I'm no lawyer, but I have had them tell me in no uncertain terms that a licensed professional can never separate themselves from their profession. In other words, you can always be held personally liable, whether or not you consider the contract to be related to your profession or not. So even if the contract says "artist" you would be held to the same standard of care as an "architect" because you are one.
So on the one hand it's murky, on the other it's not. IMHO, you need to be insured as both the contractor/artist and as the architect. Make sure the insurance agent sets it up properly. It would suck if the two policies (gen liability and the E&O) managed to point fingers at each other and wiggle out from under you when you needed them. Sorry if this isn't exactly helping...
LB,
in I'LL there is no contractor licencing. our e&o excludes projects that we are a contractor for however does cover agency CM. For our general contracting side hires DSC for observation and has no employees therefore does not need to have workman's comp. GC side is an LLC and value of 2 mil g/l was based on value of constructed work.
Bon Chacnce,
ps. once you go to the dark side there is no going back. For projects we are suited to do we are now only doing design build.
Next for DSC is LEED and LEED General Contracting.
i really dont think they can come after your arch. license on this considering that it's an installation that doesnt require a stamp. and once installed you are free of liability also. get in writing and take pics.
i was nervous the first time i did a design/build job. but once you get over that hurdle, it's potatoes and steak sauce after that.
LB, the licensing question is really a question for the state in which you live/work. I wouldn't be fooled by language in the contract. The city can call this whatever they want, but it sounds to me like you are intending to create (and they intend you to create) some sort of functional structure that people will walk under, stand under and sit under (I assume a "bus stop" has to function in this manner). Therefore, you are doing a structure and that structure must comply with all building codes for the jurisdiction in which it is located. You have already acknowledged that this thing will require an engineer.
Also, you may want to check whether you need to stamp whatever drawings are prepared for this structure. Someone above touched on the fact that as a licensed architect, you are always practicing as an architect no matter what the client may think you're doing and no matter what kind of grey language goes in the contract. For example, if I design a single family house in my state, I am required to stamp those drawings even though single family houses are exempt from the licensing laws and any other yahoo can design a house without having a license. The state requires, however, that if I design that house that I must identify myself as an architect (by means of stamping the drawings) and be held to the standard of care for an architect, not some regular yahoo. So check your state's licensing regulations, you may need to treat this work as an architect, regardless of what the city is calling you.
From a code compliance standpoint, it may well be that having the structural engineer stamp the drawings will suffice, but again, check your state licensing laws. You may need to accept responsibility as the architect regardless of whether a structural engineer is involved and is willing to stamp the drawings.
An insurance broker can give you much better information than I can about the types and amounts of insurance you should carry to protect yourself as both a designer and builder (definitely two different things in the insurance world). I would caution you, though, to not believe that your liability ends (as both designer and builder) the day the city purchases this thing from you. Does your contract actually say that? Is the city actually giving you a written release from liability? Is it even legal for them to do that in your state (some states do not allow architects or builders to be released from all liability, even if written into a contract)? If this thing falls over and hurts someone do you really think the city is going to go "oh well, it was a sculpture so there is nothing we can do and nobody we can sue."
You raise a really good question that, upon consideration, highlights some tricky issues for those looking to design and/or build. Good luck.
jsoc and Ledoux, thanks for weighing in, and that's exactly the issue. I know that I'm personally liable as an architect no matter WHAt I put out in the world! So I'll be stamping the drawings, and I'll have a structural engineer.
Really it just comes down to what wurdan freo raised above: since "design/build" is a specific project delivery method, and since I'm an architect, am I subject to the terms of a design/build contract which most likely requires a builder's license for architects who also build (artists doing sculptures under the same contract terms are not, but they're not architects).
crizz, the project does require a stamp, either an engineer's or mine, and frankly since I have one I'd rather use my own - just means I'll have to do a good job (and, as Ledoux said, even if I don't stamp it myself I still, in my state, am liable for it as if I had)!
So dsc: when you say E&O does not cover projects for which you are contractor, that means you have a design side with E&O and a totally separate company - the builder side - with its own insurance, right? That seems like what I'd need to do, in which case the builder side will HAVE to have a contractor's license...unless it's only for an "art installation"....ugh.
Cripes. I just want to do the damn project. I hate insurance, it's such a scam!
yes insurance is a scam.
on my e & o application it discusses exclusions to the errors and omissions for work undertaken by your firm and/or a separate entity that you have an equity interest. Note some thresholds are ownership of 50.1 percent but it could be 33 percent. I have had both.
the only silver lining is that you get to exclude the income as part of the insured value of the projects insured. Since your e & o premium is roughly 3 percent of revenue for built projects this is a great loophole. For us, since a number of our projects were abandoned this year, they won't be included all and all our insurance premiums went down this year.
Design/Build question: contractor's license?
I'm about to sign a contract for a small design build project for the City (actually a cultural office partnered with the city, but using city contract requirements).
The contract is for me to install three small "sculptures" (actually bus stops) in a larger site redevelopment plan. The larger project has a Project Architect. In my contract I'm being referred to as "the Artist" because they categorize the things I'm providing as "sculptures", though functional.
But that's the question: I'm providing the objects; I'm not only designing them, I'm fabricating, delivering, and installing them. The city refers to this as a "design-build" contract, typical for all their contracts with artists.
The question is, since I'm a licensed architect, when I venture out of traditional practice and into design-build, do I need a contractor's license?
(I'm finally getting E&O insurance for this job, so I'm trying to keep everything legit. And I'll have a structural engineer, too.)
Anyone been in a similar situation? I know it's a boring topic, but I appreciate advice!
I think the city is going to have to answer that question for you.
But the city is contracting with me as an artist, not as an architect. They (via my contract) don't require artists to have a contractor's license, only insurance. It's my fear of personal liability - my state is one that doesn't allow corporation shielding for licensed professionals - that's making me wonder if I need a contractor's license.
I have not thought to check the state licensing board's thoughts on the topic, better go there now...
i've think i've got a contact for you. an indiana architecture/design build/theme park assemblies firm i know. i'll call 'em and then call you.
but how cool would it be to have a gen'l contractor's license? can't cost all that much...
Yeah, Steven, I'm kinda feeling that way....I'm and architect and a contractor!
Not as cool as doing both AND building theme parks, though.
While professional liability insurance is good to have for design repercussions concerning E's and O's. It doesn't seem to be the right product for a "sculpture". For installation, you need general liability insurance, the requirements of which should be stated in the RFP.
As far as a license is concerned. This should also be stated in the RFP. Otherwise threshold is correct in refering you to the city. It amy also be required by the insurance co's.
Additionally you may find it difficult to get both Professional Liability and General Liability under one business entity. You might want to create a new LLC for the "Construction Co" you are creating for this project.
I would talk to some of the contractors you have relationships with and ask them for an insurance agent referral who can help you out with this.
This is from my personal experience on starting a design build co, that is not off the ground yet. Someone who actually works in db may have a better understanding of how the insurance works for that particular delivery method/ business entity.
Thanks wurdan. You are right that d/b as a particular delivery method is what concerns me, as I know there are specific requirements for an architect doing d/b. (Side note: this seems like one of those things my AIA membership should be able to help me with, right? I just came to the 'nect first out of habit.)
Per the city's contract I do need general liability, as well as workman's comp, and will have those things along with the E&O. And I'm doing this as a side project to my main (LLC) firm, to simplify these issues.
you should have the city buy the 'art' from you...' then 'hire' you to install it and sign off on any liabilites.
builders license is about 300 i think and a 3 hour test (test will take 45 mins)
then 2mill in insurance is about 800-1000 a year..... but insurance companies will be iffy to give anyone insurance these days.... took me 2 years to get insurance because i didnt have prior insurance..wtf...
good luck
b
I do worry a bit about that, criz, that they won't want to sell me E&O because I've not had it before. That rate (2mill, 800-1K) is exactly what my guy quoted me, though. The liability and workman's comp we have already.
As for your first sentence, they are actually buying the art from me after it's installed, so my liability basically ends at that point, though again I worry that being a licensed professional I still have liability even after transfer of ownership, since I AM and architect, even though for the purposes of this contract I'm an artist.
It's murkalicious.
I'm no lawyer, but I have had them tell me in no uncertain terms that a licensed professional can never separate themselves from their profession. In other words, you can always be held personally liable, whether or not you consider the contract to be related to your profession or not. So even if the contract says "artist" you would be held to the same standard of care as an "architect" because you are one.
So on the one hand it's murky, on the other it's not. IMHO, you need to be insured as both the contractor/artist and as the architect. Make sure the insurance agent sets it up properly. It would suck if the two policies (gen liability and the E&O) managed to point fingers at each other and wiggle out from under you when you needed them. Sorry if this isn't exactly helping...
LB,
in I'LL there is no contractor licencing. our e&o excludes projects that we are a contractor for however does cover agency CM. For our general contracting side hires DSC for observation and has no employees therefore does not need to have workman's comp. GC side is an LLC and value of 2 mil g/l was based on value of constructed work.
Bon Chacnce,
ps. once you go to the dark side there is no going back. For projects we are suited to do we are now only doing design build.
Next for DSC is LEED and LEED General Contracting.
lb,
i really dont think they can come after your arch. license on this considering that it's an installation that doesnt require a stamp. and once installed you are free of liability also. get in writing and take pics.
i was nervous the first time i did a design/build job. but once you get over that hurdle, it's potatoes and steak sauce after that.
LB, the licensing question is really a question for the state in which you live/work. I wouldn't be fooled by language in the contract. The city can call this whatever they want, but it sounds to me like you are intending to create (and they intend you to create) some sort of functional structure that people will walk under, stand under and sit under (I assume a "bus stop" has to function in this manner). Therefore, you are doing a structure and that structure must comply with all building codes for the jurisdiction in which it is located. You have already acknowledged that this thing will require an engineer.
Also, you may want to check whether you need to stamp whatever drawings are prepared for this structure. Someone above touched on the fact that as a licensed architect, you are always practicing as an architect no matter what the client may think you're doing and no matter what kind of grey language goes in the contract. For example, if I design a single family house in my state, I am required to stamp those drawings even though single family houses are exempt from the licensing laws and any other yahoo can design a house without having a license. The state requires, however, that if I design that house that I must identify myself as an architect (by means of stamping the drawings) and be held to the standard of care for an architect, not some regular yahoo. So check your state's licensing regulations, you may need to treat this work as an architect, regardless of what the city is calling you.
From a code compliance standpoint, it may well be that having the structural engineer stamp the drawings will suffice, but again, check your state licensing laws. You may need to accept responsibility as the architect regardless of whether a structural engineer is involved and is willing to stamp the drawings.
An insurance broker can give you much better information than I can about the types and amounts of insurance you should carry to protect yourself as both a designer and builder (definitely two different things in the insurance world). I would caution you, though, to not believe that your liability ends (as both designer and builder) the day the city purchases this thing from you. Does your contract actually say that? Is the city actually giving you a written release from liability? Is it even legal for them to do that in your state (some states do not allow architects or builders to be released from all liability, even if written into a contract)? If this thing falls over and hurts someone do you really think the city is going to go "oh well, it was a sculpture so there is nothing we can do and nobody we can sue."
You raise a really good question that, upon consideration, highlights some tricky issues for those looking to design and/or build. Good luck.
jsoc and Ledoux, thanks for weighing in, and that's exactly the issue. I know that I'm personally liable as an architect no matter WHAt I put out in the world! So I'll be stamping the drawings, and I'll have a structural engineer.
Really it just comes down to what wurdan freo raised above: since "design/build" is a specific project delivery method, and since I'm an architect, am I subject to the terms of a design/build contract which most likely requires a builder's license for architects who also build (artists doing sculptures under the same contract terms are not, but they're not architects).
crizz, the project does require a stamp, either an engineer's or mine, and frankly since I have one I'd rather use my own - just means I'll have to do a good job (and, as Ledoux said, even if I don't stamp it myself I still, in my state, am liable for it as if I had)!
So dsc: when you say E&O does not cover projects for which you are contractor, that means you have a design side with E&O and a totally separate company - the builder side - with its own insurance, right? That seems like what I'd need to do, in which case the builder side will HAVE to have a contractor's license...unless it's only for an "art installation"....ugh.
Cripes. I just want to do the damn project. I hate insurance, it's such a scam!
yes insurance is a scam.
on my e & o application it discusses exclusions to the errors and omissions for work undertaken by your firm and/or a separate entity that you have an equity interest. Note some thresholds are ownership of 50.1 percent but it could be 33 percent. I have had both.
the only silver lining is that you get to exclude the income as part of the insured value of the projects insured. Since your e & o premium is roughly 3 percent of revenue for built projects this is a great loophole. For us, since a number of our projects were abandoned this year, they won't be included all and all our insurance premiums went down this year.
woo whoo!
Good luck.
lb.... i must have missed the fact that you needed to stamp it..... if you stamp it, then it's not art then...... it's architecture......
art is bought from artists 'as is' and therefore the artist deams no responsibility there-after......
hmmmm........ i'm sure a few design/build people can look over the project for you if needed to be and feel safe....
thats not necessarily true as damien hirst replaced a moldy shark for a new one for an owner.
would you sue ikea if their particle board tables fail and you break a toe?
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