I had an interview today for a position advertised as a trainee position for a firm in the Netherlands. At the interview it seemed clear that I would be on my own and expected to work as a full time member of their team, and nothing in the way of "training" or guidance would be provided. The salary offered for this position (as a graduate with a Masters degree in Architecture) was 500 Euros per month.
From what I know this is not legal (minimum wage in the Netherlands is over 1400 euros per month). I would like the job, but 500 euros is exploitation, and barely covers my travel and food costs working there.
Is this a common thing, and if so, why do we put up with it? If McDonalds offered to pay their new employees 500 euros per month, they would be put out of business. If anyone has any advice on how to deal with this, please let me know. I liked the firm, and I would like the job, but I would like to be paid a living wage too.
This is the real problem with architecture internships, they offer stipends that are half the money you could make working a minimum wage job and they make you do the work of someone who is being paid 40-50 k without teaching you any more than you would naturally lean. You might gain a lot of experience, but if they are making good money off of what you are doing, then they are obviously ripping you off. I think the main reason there isn't any fuss out there is because a lot of internships are still "unpaid", and people are willing to do them because lets face it, if you don't have at least 3 years experience it can be really tough to get a real position.
I would tell them to shove it... in nicer, but more critical words .
Diplomatically decline if it's a small market for architects. If it's a ginormous market, be slightly less diplomatic. That's an insult to your intelligence and your worth. Obviously, if they made you an offer, you passed their test.
If there is a minimum wage in NL, can you report them? You'd have to think about that, though.
I would love to see architectural licenses around the world taken away for unfair labor practices and similar transgressions.
It's perverse that, in America and Europe, the "better" and more glitzy the name of the firm, the less they pay. The bohemian mercenary types will go to work for such firms, and under those conditions, and I wish they wouldn't. It is the exact opposite of that in consulting, law, accountancy, and probably even engineering. Just say no! Sometimes I think architects should unionize, but since they can't agree on anything, how could they pull that off?
Thanks for the support. This is basically what I have decided to do. Regarding reporting them, it is possible, but unless I take the job,work there for a bit, and then report them then I don't think there is anything to report.
Also I don't want to end up on some sort of black list and become unemployable because of this.
There is a very clear legal different here between an intern (who is working at a firm as part of a full-time education at a recognised university) and all other employees. Interns are the only exceptions to the minimum wage laws, there are statutory fines for not respecting the minimum wage for all employees. After graduation you can no longer be paid as an intern, there is no grey area at all, firms have to pay everybody at least the minimum wage.
If anyone has any more positive stories about starting out as an architect in the Netherlands, please share because this is depressing!
Are you tied to NL? Can you look at Brussels, Luxembourg, Hamburg, Berlin, Koln, or Frankfurt? I don't know you're situation, meaning if you are from the area (NL), or if you went to the NL for school from another European country and have decided to stay. I don't know the work conditions in adjacent countries.
Yes, if there's a NL version of the "good ole boy" system, the fact that you rattled the cage, though rightfully so, might get around.
I'm sure it will just take more looking around and investigating.
I have 8 years of industrial experience ( that's not including the 6.5 years I spent in school) and at the last place I worked, I asked at my review if my salary was negotiable. My boss said, 'yesss?' uneasily. I asked for $3000 a month, since I was only making $2750 a month. My boss replied, 'Umm.... I don't even pay anyone than that in the office', lets just say that I quit shortly after that.
The sad truth is that since the market suxs so hard, and there are so many well qualified individuals, you're basically a rat on a wheel really anywhere in the world (thank you globalism)....and then the economy crashes again and you start all over, except you're a few more year older and wiser....and sadder... =(
This profession has always been a vow of poverty. If you are young in your career, take this experience into account when deciding whether to remain or make a career change.
jeeeeez... I'm starting to wonder how you managed to finish your Masters in Architecture.. seems like you've been living under rocks. As much as I wish I didn't have to say it, be glad you're getting paid that much xDD Interns usually don't get paid in Europe.
@accesskb this attitude is what is wrong with this industry. Name one other profession that expects graduates to work for less than minimum wage? Not only is this illegal, but it is devaluing the profession.
Interns in Europe are students, and interning is a part of their education. I have graduated and not offering minimum wage is a crime.
Okay, this is my take on the whole "paying your dues" by working for nothing or close to nothing. First off, the so-called "good" offices are offices that spend far too much time on conceptual design and often enter many competitions so they have many schematic designs that are not built. The renderings they produce take many many hours, and the office does not see any revenue for these hours they put in. When they happen to win a project that will be built, they often do make some money off of it, but the amount of profit they miss out on because of the hours spent on conceptual design keeps their overall profit margins very low. Many "starchitects" seem to believe that they are above any actual business principals and thus are not able to afford paying their interns a living wage, even though we all go to school for longer than the average Bachelors degree and have the loans to prove it. Now they have created this idea that in order to have to make it in this industry you have to "pay your dues" by living in poverty for several years before they offer you any sort of livable salary or benefits. What makes it worse is that Schools and Publications have created this mystique surrounding these so-called "great" designers and they seem to encourage their students to "follow their dreams" and "pay their dues" by working for these douches. When I was in school, a so-called "starchitect" gave a lecture and urged students to "go out and follow their dreams" and maybe "volunteer to work for free for one of their idols". It is absolutely disgusting and I think every intern working for free or under minimum wage should threaten to quit or walk out. I know it won't happen because they are all disillusioned to the point that many of them think they are going to become a famous architect themselves.
I have never seen such unprofessional attitudes in any other industry, that is why I have moved to the construction industry where I get much more respect even though I am basically an entry-level employee. I also have a good salary and great benefits for my quality of life.
Nice, you have hit it exactly. The economic model for this profession is broken and I see no prospect of its' being fixed. Entering architecture majors are marinated by their professors in this pay-your-dues, suffering artist crap and the pipe dream that someday they, too, will be a starchitect with their own little groupies fetching their coffee and kissing their ass. It's a giant hoax, but there will always be a supply and demand imbalance.
Nice, you have encapsulated the reality of much the boutique practice very well, both in Europe as well as America's chic design capitals. In grad school I had the choice between doing an internship with a Pritzker-winning architect in Paris (I'm a native French speaker and dual citizen) or going to internationally recognized corporate firm in Chicago. The former offered very tiny pay, building sketch models, and working in Vectorworks while being bossed around by the architect's wife. The latter offered a generous salary, 401k, field trips and other generous benefits, plus access to the most advanced software and model-making tools at that time. I was already deeply in debt with school loans, didn't own much more than the shirt off my back, and could not rely on the financial help of my parents, who were busy putting 4 other siblings through college at the time. Can you guess which one I went with?
Is the Dutch office famous? Or is the job market this bad? I left the profession during the 2008 collapse, and I'm out of touch now.
I was offered about 300 USD to work in a starchitect's office in Japan in 2003 or so. (The other Japanese starchitect expected me to work for FREE). But I knew such a deal was a trade-off, and I would AT LEAST be getting a name on my resume, but I also knew I'd probably not learn anything about construction or how to properly prepare a CD and other such important stuff. And if I had any dreams of starting my own practice, I'd need to learn those things too.
I however, ended up working for a commercial firm for better money, better responsibilities, more training, a chance to go to a construction site, and possible chance for better working hours, but the TRADE-OFF is I won't be participating in any work that is be featured in architecture magazines.
Unfortunately in the end, my health does not permit me to practice architecture anymore. I have chest pains that prevents me from doing anything with high-stress / late-nights. I'm in my early 30s - me thinks it's a little too young to have a heart attack...
I am at peace and I have accepted the fact that I cannot practice architecture.
will be a starchitect with their own little groupies fetching their coffee and kissing their ass.
groupies is the word (could be substituted with "alumni club" if a smaller, provincial office), though the ass-kissing is there from small to large firms.
The former offered very tiny pay, building sketch models, and working in Vectorworks while being bossed around by the architect's wife.
The thought that the wife might be the office manager (I knew of a 15 person firm with this set-up and declined the offer) is incestuous and dysfunctional and, if she's a bitch, too, then it's a complete write-off, as in "fuggedaboutit."
Ok, so what is the ideal firm? For me:
- employs about 50 to 75 people
- work is primarily architecture, with planning, l.a., and i.d. ok (no GC and A/E)
- is not an "alumni club" and does not have brothers, wives, etc. in management
- pays the published salary, as well as one state license, min., and AIA dues/CE
- buys you health insurance and has some kind of 401K, or similar
- does diversified competent design work without deliberately chasing the footlights
- people go to work without looking like they fell off a turnip truck to make a "statement"
Crap, we're supposed to get carlo (the OP) inspired and encouraged, not get him down.
The Dutch office is not famous, but they are reasonably prosperous and well-respected. The worst thing about this in my opinion is that they needed extra staff because they are so busy at the moment (and hence, I assume, making some money), this is not a struggling firm at all. The job market here is not great relative to ten years ago, but compared to the rest of Europe it seems pretty buoyant.
Thanks for all the responses so far, it is good to know I am not alone in thinking this is a bad way to do business.
Sorry to hear that, 12x12! Don't feel too bad about not working on projects that doesn't get published in the magazines. The truth is those magazines have ignore a lot of building types that function as important places for everyday people (retail centers, industrial facilities, healthcare) and as a result everyday people never bother to look at those magazines. the actual market reach of these publications are tiny and basically to exist to promote firms who rely on design prowess and have few other means of establishing a viable commercial reputation.
though the ass-kissing is there from small to large firms.
True, but at least when you are kissing the ass of a garden variety hack, both you and hopefully the hack understand why: keeping the paycheck. There is something pathetic and even disturbing about supposedly highly intelligent (they are Ivy League, after all) working for nothing in order to basque in the reflected light of some pompous, effete starchitect who actually thinks his bullshit has relevance to anything in the real world.
Make sure you do your research about the firm and their projects, because I have seen some of my fellow students (and myself) climbing up the ladder quite fast (after 6 months internship becoming (assistant)designer). Maybe you can propose a 3 month trial for the 500 euro's and ask for minimum after those 3 months when you've proven yourself. It's not perfect, but it are not perfect times now. Worst case scenario you've "wasted" 3 months of your life.
If I start tomorrow working at McDonalds as a trainee burger flipper I would get minimum wage. Anything less than this at an architect firm is an insult to me, to you, and to every other working architect. I don't see how this can be justified, is my six years of university and accumulated professional experience not worth the same salary guaranteed by law to every other person in the country?
Incidentally, there are very heavy fines (starting at 10,000 euros, plus back pay) if your firm is found to breach minimum wage rules, so please be careful if you indulge in this.
I personally think it would be awesome to see some so-called "great" architects/designers go down for breaching minimum wage rules. I know there are many of them that don't give two shits that they are basically employing slaves.
@accesskb this attitude is what is wrong with this industry. Name one other profession that expects graduates to work for less than minimum wage? Not only is this illegal, but it is devaluing the profession.
Interns in Europe are students, and interning is a part of their education. I have graduated and not offering minimum wage is a crime.
don't work for these 'starchitects' ... I completed about 6 internships during my undergrad and got paid about $3000/month on average, started with $18.50/hr for my first internship and got paid $23/hr on my last. :) I'm guessing you graduated Masters without any prior work experience? that might be the reason they pay you so little then.
Okay I'm not saying we should all accept the trainee payment (the people I was talking about are still students btw, so it's technically not a crime), but lets look at it from another point of view. If you really are worth at least that minimum age, and if it is such an insult, go do it yourself. Go get those design jobs and be an independent architect. Let's see if you can scrape those euro's together, and maybe if you're doing well you can hire someone and pay him/her minimum wage.
Now don't get me wrong, the architecture world is completely rotten, and should change. But at this point a lot of offices just can't offer much more. There is still a 50% unemployment rate among architects in Holland, give or take a few. And while some offices are clearly misusing the market right now to offer low wages, it is how it is right now. Everybody is using these underpaid trainees, and because of that they can go below cost-price and that's how the whole industry is burying itself. Nothing much you alone, or even we here at archinect can change about it now, no matter how long you have studied or how much you think you should get paid.
@Paul So you agree, this is destroying the industry, and those who support this practice should be kicked out so that honest architects have a chance ;)
@accesskb They are not starchitects, nor do I lack experience, and this is not a training position or an internship, it is real work for real clients. The reason they pay so little is because people roll over and take it, and it has to stop. Sound fair?
Well, if you don't have any other offers and it's the only one you have, then take it. At least you show your future employers that you are doing something productive.
The main reason to take is: not to leave too much gaps in your resume.
Otherwise, if you know the market is reasonably healthy enough to get other offers, then skip this firm. A prosperous firm should not be paying so little. That's just evil.
@homme_du_jura
It was tough at first, because I bought into this whole "I was born to do architecture" thing. I really wept when I realized that I had to leave the profession.
But fast forward 5+ years later, I don't miss it at all. Doing other kinds of non-creative work isn't all that bad at all.
I'm glad everything turned out well for you so far. Whenever I meet a former architect, I often remark that they were actually clever enough to leave the profession. It may sound treasonous, but I see it as a great accomplishment when someone pursues a professional path that offers more dignity and the ability to make a bigger difference than staying holed up in a design sweatshop. I can see why buying into the belief that one was "born to do architecture" could cause you to be emotionally unprepared when adversity struck, and I wonder how many others would be better off now if they only realized that architecture isn't one's sole destiny.
I came into architecture from a very different frame of mind. I made sure to get a very broad education in subjects far removed from architecture, trying to avail myself to a variety of career tracks. It wasn't until the middle of college that I might want to "try this architecture thing out". My hesitation was due to my belief that there were indeed those who were born to do architecture and were very good at it, so how could I compete against them? Wouldn't they likely be the ones who would do all the cool projects, be offered the top jobs at the best firms while I would be lucky to simply draw doorknobs? I decided not to set myself for up disappointment by keeping my expectations in check. So far it has served me well, since I continue to be grateful for what I have and surprised by how far I've come. Still I sort of envy those who were able to break away from the drudgery of the traditional architectural practice to become contractors, lawyers, business executives, even political leaders.
They are willing to pay 500 euros per month for an "Assistant Designer" (NOT a trainee or intern position)
A few highlights:
You are required to have your own car (and presumably pay for petrol and so on out of your grand salary)
You are expected to provide your own laptop
You are expected to provide your own (legally licenced) copy of Autocad (1200 euros!) (!!!!!)
You are expected to work on your own for four of the six months that the position runs
I think this is the worst job I have seen so far. Has anyone worked with this company before? Is there anyway we can heap public scorn on the people who think they can get away with this crap?
I want to point out that this is a new initiative by the municipality of Rotterdam to get more unemployed graduates to at least do some work (and hopefully proper paid positions once they have the experience). Previously it was illegal to hire a graduated architect and pay them only the 500euro stipend. Since hardly any Dutch students do internships during school they have zero experience upon graduation and no one will give them a minimum wage position when there are plenty of other people with 1-2 years of experience willing to work for the same (esp other european grads). This is why you must already be a resident of Rotterdam to apply for this job and others under the Startersbeurs scheme.
Basically it subsidizes offices as an incentive to get them hiring and training people. The offices pay the trainees 100 euro and the municipality pays the other 400. However, it is required that the position is mostly educational, so unsupervised work goes against this. She does say in the ad that she provides guidance at all times, but that you attempt to work on your own for the most part after 2 months (although this goes without saying at a 1 person office?)
The thing about your own laptop is bullshit of course, because she should provide the equipment to work on she earns profit from it. Re the car she asks for access to a car, it doesnt have to be your own presumably. If she is serious about these requirements she will get hardly any responses...
Now my suggestion - rather than posting here - is to report this ad to [email protected] and indicate that the requirement about having your own laptop goes against the rules of general employment and for the Starterbeurs to review her ad.
Oct 23, 13 2:44 pm ·
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"Trainee" position for less than minimum wage (NL)
Hello,
I had an interview today for a position advertised as a trainee position for a firm in the Netherlands. At the interview it seemed clear that I would be on my own and expected to work as a full time member of their team, and nothing in the way of "training" or guidance would be provided. The salary offered for this position (as a graduate with a Masters degree in Architecture) was 500 Euros per month.
From what I know this is not legal (minimum wage in the Netherlands is over 1400 euros per month). I would like the job, but 500 euros is exploitation, and barely covers my travel and food costs working there.
Is this a common thing, and if so, why do we put up with it? If McDonalds offered to pay their new employees 500 euros per month, they would be put out of business. If anyone has any advice on how to deal with this, please let me know. I liked the firm, and I would like the job, but I would like to be paid a living wage too.
All the best.
This is the real problem with architecture internships, they offer stipends that are half the money you could make working a minimum wage job and they make you do the work of someone who is being paid 40-50 k without teaching you any more than you would naturally lean. You might gain a lot of experience, but if they are making good money off of what you are doing, then they are obviously ripping you off. I think the main reason there isn't any fuss out there is because a lot of internships are still "unpaid", and people are willing to do them because lets face it, if you don't have at least 3 years experience it can be really tough to get a real position.
I would tell them to shove it... in nicer, but more critical words .
^
Diplomatically decline if it's a small market for architects. If it's a ginormous market, be slightly less diplomatic. That's an insult to your intelligence and your worth. Obviously, if they made you an offer, you passed their test.
If there is a minimum wage in NL, can you report them? You'd have to think about that, though.
I would love to see architectural licenses around the world taken away for unfair labor practices and similar transgressions.
It's perverse that, in America and Europe, the "better" and more glitzy the name of the firm, the less they pay. The bohemian mercenary types will go to work for such firms, and under those conditions, and I wish they wouldn't. It is the exact opposite of that in consulting, law, accountancy, and probably even engineering. Just say no! Sometimes I think architects should unionize, but since they can't agree on anything, how could they pull that off?
I'm sorry this shook out this way.
^that's what i meant :P
Thanks for the support. This is basically what I have decided to do. Regarding reporting them, it is possible, but unless I take the job,work there for a bit, and then report them then I don't think there is anything to report.
Also I don't want to end up on some sort of black list and become unemployable because of this.
There is a very clear legal different here between an intern (who is working at a firm as part of a full-time education at a recognised university) and all other employees. Interns are the only exceptions to the minimum wage laws, there are statutory fines for not respecting the minimum wage for all employees. After graduation you can no longer be paid as an intern, there is no grey area at all, firms have to pay everybody at least the minimum wage.
If anyone has any more positive stories about starting out as an architect in the Netherlands, please share because this is depressing!
Hi:
Are you tied to NL? Can you look at Brussels, Luxembourg, Hamburg, Berlin, Koln, or Frankfurt? I don't know you're situation, meaning if you are from the area (NL), or if you went to the NL for school from another European country and have decided to stay. I don't know the work conditions in adjacent countries.
Yes, if there's a NL version of the "good ole boy" system, the fact that you rattled the cage, though rightfully so, might get around.
I'm sure it will just take more looking around and investigating.
Good luck.
Welcome to architecture,
I have 8 years of industrial experience ( that's not including the 6.5 years I spent in school) and at the last place I worked, I asked at my review if my salary was negotiable. My boss said, 'yesss?' uneasily. I asked for $3000 a month, since I was only making $2750 a month. My boss replied, 'Umm.... I don't even pay anyone than that in the office', lets just say that I quit shortly after that.
The sad truth is that since the market suxs so hard, and there are so many well qualified individuals, you're basically a rat on a wheel really anywhere in the world (thank you globalism)....and then the economy crashes again and you start all over, except you're a few more year older and wiser....and sadder... =(
This profession has always been a vow of poverty. If you are young in your career, take this experience into account when deciding whether to remain or make a career change.
jeeeeez... I'm starting to wonder how you managed to finish your Masters in Architecture.. seems like you've been living under rocks. As much as I wish I didn't have to say it, be glad you're getting paid that much xDD Interns usually don't get paid in Europe.
@accesskb this attitude is what is wrong with this industry. Name one other profession that expects graduates to work for less than minimum wage? Not only is this illegal, but it is devaluing the profession.
Interns in Europe are students, and interning is a part of their education. I have graduated and not offering minimum wage is a crime.
Okay, this is my take on the whole "paying your dues" by working for nothing or close to nothing. First off, the so-called "good" offices are offices that spend far too much time on conceptual design and often enter many competitions so they have many schematic designs that are not built. The renderings they produce take many many hours, and the office does not see any revenue for these hours they put in. When they happen to win a project that will be built, they often do make some money off of it, but the amount of profit they miss out on because of the hours spent on conceptual design keeps their overall profit margins very low. Many "starchitects" seem to believe that they are above any actual business principals and thus are not able to afford paying their interns a living wage, even though we all go to school for longer than the average Bachelors degree and have the loans to prove it. Now they have created this idea that in order to have to make it in this industry you have to "pay your dues" by living in poverty for several years before they offer you any sort of livable salary or benefits. What makes it worse is that Schools and Publications have created this mystique surrounding these so-called "great" designers and they seem to encourage their students to "follow their dreams" and "pay their dues" by working for these douches. When I was in school, a so-called "starchitect" gave a lecture and urged students to "go out and follow their dreams" and maybe "volunteer to work for free for one of their idols". It is absolutely disgusting and I think every intern working for free or under minimum wage should threaten to quit or walk out. I know it won't happen because they are all disillusioned to the point that many of them think they are going to become a famous architect themselves.
I have never seen such unprofessional attitudes in any other industry, that is why I have moved to the construction industry where I get much more respect even though I am basically an entry-level employee. I also have a good salary and great benefits for my quality of life.
Nice, you have hit it exactly. The economic model for this profession is broken and I see no prospect of its' being fixed. Entering architecture majors are marinated by their professors in this pay-your-dues, suffering artist crap and the pipe dream that someday they, too, will be a starchitect with their own little groupies fetching their coffee and kissing their ass. It's a giant hoax, but there will always be a supply and demand imbalance.
Nice, you have encapsulated the reality of much the boutique practice very well, both in Europe as well as America's chic design capitals. In grad school I had the choice between doing an internship with a Pritzker-winning architect in Paris (I'm a native French speaker and dual citizen) or going to internationally recognized corporate firm in Chicago. The former offered very tiny pay, building sketch models, and working in Vectorworks while being bossed around by the architect's wife. The latter offered a generous salary, 401k, field trips and other generous benefits, plus access to the most advanced software and model-making tools at that time. I was already deeply in debt with school loans, didn't own much more than the shirt off my back, and could not rely on the financial help of my parents, who were busy putting 4 other siblings through college at the time. Can you guess which one I went with?
Is the Dutch office famous? Or is the job market this bad? I left the profession during the 2008 collapse, and I'm out of touch now.
I was offered about 300 USD to work in a starchitect's office in Japan in 2003 or so. (The other Japanese starchitect expected me to work for FREE). But I knew such a deal was a trade-off, and I would AT LEAST be getting a name on my resume, but I also knew I'd probably not learn anything about construction or how to properly prepare a CD and other such important stuff. And if I had any dreams of starting my own practice, I'd need to learn those things too.
I however, ended up working for a commercial firm for better money, better responsibilities, more training, a chance to go to a construction site, and possible chance for better working hours, but the TRADE-OFF is I won't be participating in any work that is be featured in architecture magazines.
Unfortunately in the end, my health does not permit me to practice architecture anymore. I have chest pains that prevents me from doing anything with high-stress / late-nights. I'm in my early 30s - me thinks it's a little too young to have a heart attack...
I am at peace and I have accepted the fact that I cannot practice architecture.
I'm in my early 30s NOW. When I had chest pains, I was in my mid to late 20s.
will be a starchitect with their own little groupies fetching their coffee and kissing their ass.
groupies is the word (could be substituted with "alumni club" if a smaller, provincial office), though the ass-kissing is there from small to large firms.
The former offered very tiny pay, building sketch models, and working in Vectorworks while being bossed around by the architect's wife.
The thought that the wife might be the office manager (I knew of a 15 person firm with this set-up and declined the offer) is incestuous and dysfunctional and, if she's a bitch, too, then it's a complete write-off, as in "fuggedaboutit."
Ok, so what is the ideal firm? For me:
- employs about 50 to 75 people
- work is primarily architecture, with planning, l.a., and i.d. ok (no GC and A/E)
- is not an "alumni club" and does not have brothers, wives, etc. in management
- pays the published salary, as well as one state license, min., and AIA dues/CE
- buys you health insurance and has some kind of 401K, or similar
- does diversified competent design work without deliberately chasing the footlights
- people go to work without looking like they fell off a turnip truck to make a "statement"
Crap, we're supposed to get carlo (the OP) inspired and encouraged, not get him down.
The Dutch office is not famous, but they are reasonably prosperous and well-respected. The worst thing about this in my opinion is that they needed extra staff because they are so busy at the moment (and hence, I assume, making some money), this is not a struggling firm at all. The job market here is not great relative to ten years ago, but compared to the rest of Europe it seems pretty buoyant.
Thanks for all the responses so far, it is good to know I am not alone in thinking this is a bad way to do business.
Sorry to hear that, 12x12! Don't feel too bad about not working on projects that doesn't get published in the magazines. The truth is those magazines have ignore a lot of building types that function as important places for everyday people (retail centers, industrial facilities, healthcare) and as a result everyday people never bother to look at those magazines. the actual market reach of these publications are tiny and basically to exist to promote firms who rely on design prowess and have few other means of establishing a viable commercial reputation.
though the ass-kissing is there from small to large firms.
True, but at least when you are kissing the ass of a garden variety hack, both you and hopefully the hack understand why: keeping the paycheck. There is something pathetic and even disturbing about supposedly highly intelligent (they are Ivy League, after all) working for nothing in order to basque in the reflected light of some pompous, effete starchitect who actually thinks his bullshit has relevance to anything in the real world.
^ According to The Hamptons Dictionary
noblesse oblige (no·bless’ oh·bleej’) French.
n. The obligation of those of inferior rank to cater
to the whims and fantasies of the wealthy.
Make sure you do your research about the firm and their projects, because I have seen some of my fellow students (and myself) climbing up the ladder quite fast (after 6 months internship becoming (assistant)designer). Maybe you can propose a 3 month trial for the 500 euro's and ask for minimum after those 3 months when you've proven yourself. It's not perfect, but it are not perfect times now. Worst case scenario you've "wasted" 3 months of your life.
If I start tomorrow working at McDonalds as a trainee burger flipper I would get minimum wage. Anything less than this at an architect firm is an insult to me, to you, and to every other working architect. I don't see how this can be justified, is my six years of university and accumulated professional experience not worth the same salary guaranteed by law to every other person in the country?
Incidentally, there are very heavy fines (starting at 10,000 euros, plus back pay) if your firm is found to breach minimum wage rules, so please be careful if you indulge in this.
I personally think it would be awesome to see some so-called "great" architects/designers go down for breaching minimum wage rules. I know there are many of them that don't give two shits that they are basically employing slaves.
@accesskb this attitude is what is wrong with this industry. Name one other profession that expects graduates to work for less than minimum wage? Not only is this illegal, but it is devaluing the profession.
Interns in Europe are students, and interning is a part of their education. I have graduated and not offering minimum wage is a crime.
don't work for these 'starchitects' ... I completed about 6 internships during my undergrad and got paid about $3000/month on average, started with $18.50/hr for my first internship and got paid $23/hr on my last. :) I'm guessing you graduated Masters without any prior work experience? that might be the reason they pay you so little then.
Okay I'm not saying we should all accept the trainee payment (the people I was talking about are still students btw, so it's technically not a crime), but lets look at it from another point of view. If you really are worth at least that minimum age, and if it is such an insult, go do it yourself. Go get those design jobs and be an independent architect. Let's see if you can scrape those euro's together, and maybe if you're doing well you can hire someone and pay him/her minimum wage.
Now don't get me wrong, the architecture world is completely rotten, and should change. But at this point a lot of offices just can't offer much more. There is still a 50% unemployment rate among architects in Holland, give or take a few. And while some offices are clearly misusing the market right now to offer low wages, it is how it is right now. Everybody is using these underpaid trainees, and because of that they can go below cost-price and that's how the whole industry is burying itself. Nothing much you alone, or even we here at archinect can change about it now, no matter how long you have studied or how much you think you should get paid.
@Paul So you agree, this is destroying the industry, and those who support this practice should be kicked out so that honest architects have a chance ;)
@accesskb They are not starchitects, nor do I lack experience, and this is not a training position or an internship, it is real work for real clients. The reason they pay so little is because people roll over and take it, and it has to stop. Sound fair?
@Nice totally agree :)
@carlo88
Well, if you don't have any other offers and it's the only one you have, then take it. At least you show your future employers that you are doing something productive.
The main reason to take is: not to leave too much gaps in your resume.
Otherwise, if you know the market is reasonably healthy enough to get other offers, then skip this firm. A prosperous firm should not be paying so little. That's just evil.
@homme_du_jura
It was tough at first, because I bought into this whole "I was born to do architecture" thing. I really wept when I realized that I had to leave the profession.
But fast forward 5+ years later, I don't miss it at all. Doing other kinds of non-creative work isn't all that bad at all.
@12x12surface
I'm glad everything turned out well for you so far. Whenever I meet a former architect, I often remark that they were actually clever enough to leave the profession. It may sound treasonous, but I see it as a great accomplishment when someone pursues a professional path that offers more dignity and the ability to make a bigger difference than staying holed up in a design sweatshop. I can see why buying into the belief that one was "born to do architecture" could cause you to be emotionally unprepared when adversity struck, and I wonder how many others would be better off now if they only realized that architecture isn't one's sole destiny.
I came into architecture from a very different frame of mind. I made sure to get a very broad education in subjects far removed from architecture, trying to avail myself to a variety of career tracks. It wasn't until the middle of college that I might want to "try this architecture thing out". My hesitation was due to my belief that there were indeed those who were born to do architecture and were very good at it, so how could I compete against them? Wouldn't they likely be the ones who would do all the cool projects, be offered the top jobs at the best firms while I would be lucky to simply draw doorknobs? I decided not to set myself for up disappointment by keeping my expectations in check. So far it has served me well, since I continue to be grateful for what I have and surprised by how far I've come. Still I sort of envy those who were able to break away from the drudgery of the traditional architectural practice to become contractors, lawyers, business executives, even political leaders.
I resurrected this thread to name and shame Kei Ontwerp in Krimpen aan de Ijssel, a small town near Rotterdam who have posted this job listing:
http://www.archined.nl/cgi-bin/vacaturebank/classifieds.cgi?session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=21461&query=retrievalr
They are willing to pay 500 euros per month for an "Assistant Designer" (NOT a trainee or intern position)
A few highlights:
I think this is the worst job I have seen so far. Has anyone worked with this company before? Is there anyway we can heap public scorn on the people who think they can get away with this crap?
I want to point out that this is a new initiative by the municipality of Rotterdam to get more unemployed graduates to at least do some work (and hopefully proper paid positions once they have the experience). Previously it was illegal to hire a graduated architect and pay them only the 500euro stipend. Since hardly any Dutch students do internships during school they have zero experience upon graduation and no one will give them a minimum wage position when there are plenty of other people with 1-2 years of experience willing to work for the same (esp other european grads). This is why you must already be a resident of Rotterdam to apply for this job and others under the Startersbeurs scheme.
You can read about it here (as it says in the ad): www.startersbeurs.nu/rotterdam
Basically it subsidizes offices as an incentive to get them hiring and training people. The offices pay the trainees 100 euro and the municipality pays the other 400. However, it is required that the position is mostly educational, so unsupervised work goes against this. She does say in the ad that she provides guidance at all times, but that you attempt to work on your own for the most part after 2 months (although this goes without saying at a 1 person office?)
The thing about your own laptop is bullshit of course, because she should provide the equipment to work on she earns profit from it. Re the car she asks for access to a car, it doesnt have to be your own presumably. If she is serious about these requirements she will get hardly any responses...
Now my suggestion - rather than posting here - is to report this ad to [email protected] and indicate that the requirement about having your own laptop goes against the rules of general employment and for the Starterbeurs to review her ad.
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