i don't know if anyone here knows who Saul Alinsky is but if you don't
there is some grand reading out there about him. He understood the depression in the 30's and went to graduate school. He isn't and Architect but damn near the best thing..." A Community Organizer, on a Grand Scale"
I just found out my totally amazing and awesome former mentor was layed-off from her job. It kinda hit me hard because it's the first personal indication of the bad economy.
general labor $15+benefits
factory labor no experience $17+benefits
production leader/factory $1200 a week + benefits
post office $20+benefits / $57k a year start out with OT
a mail man would be cool...... good exercise and no drama....
cryz, i'm glad you didn't move out here to take a job with us! My boss confided in me (now I'm spilling it on the net, how do ya like that?) he is going to fire/layoff 2 people. One fo which is certainly dead weight, but the other is a senior person who does A LOT for us and is the main mentor for the younger staff (MY mentor). I'm pretty upset. Both are my friends, and I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut?
AIG is socialist now right? When does universal insurance start can you tell me?
Antisthenes, about half of my family is on the verge of unemployment, I'm down for the revolution and all that but could you cut the marxist bullshit for like, a week or two at least?
Malibu high-end residential is still surviving. When the economy slumps, people look to movies, music, and television. This notion has been true in the past as well...the great depression produced some of the centuries best movies. We are feeling things a little, but not as bad as the rest of the country.
Apurimac marxist is what the government could be doing by providing people with help after nationalizing these large corporations and banks, they are not those type of authoritarians yet, the needle leans far more fascist because of the prison, military and other industrial complexes.
if you are down for the revolution start organizing locally in a decentralized way and producing for your daily needs.
that is the illusion. there has never been a marxist society. to me is has been an idea to counter the rise of the lifeless institution we cog to: the corporation, in the end that has created yet another new slave/master dynamic just as every other system before it.
one person whose ideas have not really been explored that infuriated and made marx look the fool: Max Stirner. The Ego and His Own - 1844
so if you got than a joboffer in these days - you would think you should take it ?! even if its in Dubai and you´re paying almost 2800$ for 1bedroom flat ?
is it worth doing that and loosing all the idealism about a job and only working for the money....
just asking myself same question as i got an offer yesterday to work in the UAE, but knowing from my former experiences that this will kill me anyway...
but hey, here in germany there a layoff even way before THIS layoff, You guys in the states and UK had still jobs going before this crisis - architecture job market in germany has been bad like this for a loooong time, so this crisis doesnt make a difference really
The banks were not nationalized Anti...you might want to do some homework. If they were nationalized then the government would own them, but it doesn't. In a capatalist move the government merely gave loans to banks so that they could buy other, weaker, banks, yet continue to be owned as autonomous entities. So, Americas banks have NOT been nationalized...although that would not be a bad idea.
tempo01 - $2800 for a one bedroom flat? I know you are in Germany, but really?! In a bad economy for architects I'd suggest lowering liabilities, i.e. debt and massive rents, etc.
That's what baffles me about going to grad school just because it might take some work to find a job. Unless you are going back for a different degree with different job prospects it seems like a waste. Your employability is virtually the same with a MArch or BArch, so why take on the additional liability? If the job market still sucks when you graduate and you can't get a better paying job, all you have is additional liabilities. And college loan debt is exempt from bankruptcy forgiveness.
i'll say this for the umpteenth time on archinect:
this recession will be worse than '91 - there is a collapse of consumer confidence and spending, the banks are petrified, taxes for most states and localities are going to be at historic lows, and architecture is one of the most capital intensive undertakings there is.
be prepared for at least a year of extreme pain in the construction industry. my prediction, having lived through '91, is that we'll see at least 20% of the architects in the u.s. unemployed before the end. that's not including firms (like mine) who may see their owner's taking a substantial pay cut for the year just to try and ride it out.
6 months ago, i would have suggested the middle east or china as a more 'recession-proof' alternative, but i think they're going to be hit hard by the fact that we've stopped spending money on crappy toys and gas prices have contracted so severely.
keeping your liabilities low is a must - divest yourselves of all the 'crap' you've built up be very careful in managing your debt, live within your means, etc. looking at grad school is not bad option. once we get through this period, employers are going to have some really good options (in terms of hiring talent). anything you can do to help position yourself in terms of skillsets and abilities will be a plus. finally, if you are unemployed and are licensed, it may not be a bad time to hang out your shingle. you could probably get up and running on a couple grand, work out of your house, and you may even pick up some of the small work out there. can't hurt while you're looking...
i'll add as well - don't go looking at the small firms for work. statistically, one in five will fail during the recession (according to the small business admin.). we have the least flexibility in terms of managing cash flow, the smallest room for error, and will be in a position where we have to cut expenses as quickly as we can if receivables fail to show or if the work dries up.
the best bet for a permanent job is to find a larger firm like perkins+will, who does a lot of research lab and healthcare projects. those still have money flowing in and their size makes them more attractive to clients wanting to go the design/build route.
laru, your 20% cut sounds light. The predictions for NY is for the construction industry to shrink from 130,000 at peak to 100,000 by 2010. That's over 25%. My guess that Architects will shrink in proportion to the rest of the industry.
Live within your means ... clearly the most important comment Laru made now thinking about going back to school and racking up a 6 figure debt does not make sense. Think about that grad school option again, I' ve never seen the value in getting that far into debt over school. By getting that far into debt you've bought into the whole idea of living on credit and certainly beyond your means.
there are also other alternatives for grad school - you could do a one year program somewhere (for example, auburn has a new design/build masters, as well as a real-estate/development masters which is geared more to mid-career professionals). an m-des at harvard is only one year. at least you wouldn't have to rack up the greatest amount of money going that route - heck, the way the d/b program was explained to me, they're going to try and stack it the first year so that all your tuition will be covered by a grad. asst. fellowship. basically, all you'd have to cover are living expenses. there are ways to skim by, not go crazy into debt, and come out on the other side with some improved skillsets and better positioned for the rebound.
Laru,
Just a warning to those on unemployment who hang out their shingle; in most states, if you are caught, this is a reason to terminate your unemployment benefits. To qualify for unemployment, you must be ready and willing to work. IF you are trying to run your own business, then you are not available for full time work according to unemployment offices. You would be out marketing your business instead of actively seeking employment.
This does not mean that you can't do some "consulting work" for another architecture firm (if you report the income so it can be deducted from your unemployment), They consider this part time temporary work.
You are not supposed to be starting a business while on unemployment. And just a reminder, that is one reason that self employment has its down sides; if you do start your own business, and after a year you close do to lack of work, you cannot file for unemployment.
Hey all - even though there are layoffs taking place at numerous firms, opportunities still exist. A lot of firms use these layoffs not only to decrease overhead but also to "clean house". They get rid of the dead weight, and then start looking for people better suited for the positions they do need. That's not to say everyone getting laid off is dead weight, but in many cases they just don't fit in with the current needs of the firm.
That said, get your resumes and portfolios shined up and send them to Gresham Smith, SOM, NBBJ, HOK, etc. They may be laying off, but they're also hiring.
and we should probably put some numbers in perspective: right now, i'd say no more than 8% of all architects are unemployed (i'm basing that off local numbers of layoffs vs. numbers of total architects in town. very small sampling i'm afraid). my guess, again, is that we'll double, at least, from where we are.
projects simply aren't getting built or carried through the planning stages. money isn't flowing from the banks to anyone right now. a lot of good people are going to get caught in the net just like last time. my main hope is that we don't lose too many people from the profession (people who leave and never come back).
trust me, its depressing to consider we haven't even come close to the bottom yet....
I've made many comments on this thread, but perhaps what I omitted, was that if it is you, or me, who gets a spell on the rubbish heap, remember that this is not a call on your capability, or a denial of your calling to the profession. Often the choice is random, or the choice is made by a fool, or the choice is made on bases other than the skills or capabilities of those competing for the remaining seats. If it is you, or me, stay strong. Believe. Accept the present and make the future.
This sounds trite, but:
among those who will be fired, there's many who shouldn't have been. Don't take it personally
absolutely what psyarch says. no employer is going to look at being laid off as an inherent black mark in this environment. there are plenty of 'good' design firms who are poorly managed as much as the inverse. lots of people are going to be let go less because of their skills than they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This is very frightening news. I knew it was getting bad, but this is worse than I thought. I've been out of grad school for a year, worked in Japan, and came back to the States. Bad timing. I've been job hunting for 3 months. May have to call the ole' student loan company and go into economic hardship soon I guess. I saw Bed Bath and Beyond is hiring.
Layoffs....layoffs......
i don't know if anyone here knows who Saul Alinsky is but if you don't
there is some grand reading out there about him. He understood the depression in the 30's and went to graduate school. He isn't and Architect but damn near the best thing..." A Community Organizer, on a Grand Scale"
[img]http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/03/24/PH2007032401229.jpg/[img]
who needs money? I'll just go draw in a cabin in the woods and live off nuts and berries.
I just found out my totally amazing and awesome former mentor was layed-off from her job. It kinda hit me hard because it's the first personal indication of the bad economy.
so i have been looking in the paper for jobs....
general labor $15+benefits
factory labor no experience $17+benefits
production leader/factory $1200 a week + benefits
post office $20+benefits / $57k a year start out with OT
a mail man would be cool...... good exercise and no drama....
no drama? lots of drama. people are deadly waiting for those checks on the 1st of the month.
cryz, i'm glad you didn't move out here to take a job with us! My boss confided in me (now I'm spilling it on the net, how do ya like that?) he is going to fire/layoff 2 people. One fo which is certainly dead weight, but the other is a senior person who does A LOT for us and is the main mentor for the younger staff (MY mentor). I'm pretty upset. Both are my friends, and I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut?
yeah.... i have some friends in cali telling me not to jump either.....grrr
i'm willing to trade power tools for IDP.....hehehe
good luck to anyone searching or about to get canned....
time to learn some tricks and become a street performer
Antisthenes, about half of my family is on the verge of unemployment, I'm down for the revolution and all that but could you cut the marxist bullshit for like, a week or two at least?
THANKS
Gehry just laid off 12. Looks like even the starchitects can't weather this storm.
There were rumors of layoffs at Marmol Radziner and Johnson Fain.
man...... sounds like the economy is about to hit the ground.
even the factories here in detroit are layout off (steel mills/etc). the auto industry has been laying off for about 4 years now.
i sense a revolution in the making.
As I said in another more recent thread, one of the oldest and largest firms in my city just sent 20-some people packing last monday.
Malibu high-end residential is still surviving. When the economy slumps, people look to movies, music, and television. This notion has been true in the past as well...the great depression produced some of the centuries best movies. We are feeling things a little, but not as bad as the rest of the country.
Apurimac marxist is what the government could be doing by providing people with help after nationalizing these large corporations and banks, they are not those type of authoritarians yet, the needle leans far more fascist because of the prison, military and other industrial complexes.
if you are down for the revolution start organizing locally in a decentralized way and producing for your daily needs.
Right now anti I'm just concerned with the prospect of unemployment for me and my entire family.
i thought in a true marxist society, the people own the means of production?
that is the illusion. there has never been a marxist society. to me is has been an idea to counter the rise of the lifeless institution we cog to: the corporation, in the end that has created yet another new slave/master dynamic just as every other system before it.
one person whose ideas have not really been explored that infuriated and made marx look the fool: Max Stirner.
The Ego and His Own - 1844
I think workers owning production is Parecon. Participitory Economics
teaching your family how to garden?
This is an interesting article about the how the recession is affecting graduates.
With some very rudimentary tips.
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=449&storycode=3125795&c=2
Layoffs at SOM New York today.
yeah, you know the economy's bad when people are getting laid off who didn't earn anything in the first place.
;)
Little laid off 15% of its workforce nationwide on Monday
so if you got than a joboffer in these days - you would think you should take it ?! even if its in Dubai and you´re paying almost 2800$ for 1bedroom flat ?
is it worth doing that and loosing all the idealism about a job and only working for the money....
just asking myself same question as i got an offer yesterday to work in the UAE, but knowing from my former experiences that this will kill me anyway...
but hey, here in germany there a layoff even way before THIS layoff, You guys in the states and UK had still jobs going before this crisis - architecture job market in germany has been bad like this for a loooong time, so this crisis doesnt make a difference really
The banks were not nationalized Anti...you might want to do some homework. If they were nationalized then the government would own them, but it doesn't. In a capatalist move the government merely gave loans to banks so that they could buy other, weaker, banks, yet continue to be owned as autonomous entities. So, Americas banks have NOT been nationalized...although that would not be a bad idea.
tempo01 - $2800 for a one bedroom flat? I know you are in Germany, but really?! In a bad economy for architects I'd suggest lowering liabilities, i.e. debt and massive rents, etc.
That's what baffles me about going to grad school just because it might take some work to find a job. Unless you are going back for a different degree with different job prospects it seems like a waste. Your employability is virtually the same with a MArch or BArch, so why take on the additional liability? If the job market still sucks when you graduate and you can't get a better paying job, all you have is additional liabilities. And college loan debt is exempt from bankruptcy forgiveness.
Well, it's finally happening here at my firm as well. One of my friends got laid off this week, and apparently there are "more to come".
Suddenly finding it harder to sleep at night....
good luck people.
it's going to get nasty out there.
I WAS JUST SACKED TODAY!
My boss said that the 3 projects that he was counting on didn't get financing, so they were canceled and that the office is near collapsing......
And im In Los Angeles,
this is going to be fun.
Hopefully California's Unemployment Insurance Fund does not run out.
sorry AIG sponsor Manchester United FC here in the UK so they don't get good press ;)
What about Scottish-based firms? Any closures?
At least one stArchitect Edinburgh office will close.
that blows major carl. Does anyone know if you can get unemployment insurance if you're working while in college?
study for ARE, job security
i'll say this for the umpteenth time on archinect:
this recession will be worse than '91 - there is a collapse of consumer confidence and spending, the banks are petrified, taxes for most states and localities are going to be at historic lows, and architecture is one of the most capital intensive undertakings there is.
be prepared for at least a year of extreme pain in the construction industry. my prediction, having lived through '91, is that we'll see at least 20% of the architects in the u.s. unemployed before the end. that's not including firms (like mine) who may see their owner's taking a substantial pay cut for the year just to try and ride it out.
6 months ago, i would have suggested the middle east or china as a more 'recession-proof' alternative, but i think they're going to be hit hard by the fact that we've stopped spending money on crappy toys and gas prices have contracted so severely.
keeping your liabilities low is a must - divest yourselves of all the 'crap' you've built up be very careful in managing your debt, live within your means, etc. looking at grad school is not bad option. once we get through this period, employers are going to have some really good options (in terms of hiring talent). anything you can do to help position yourself in terms of skillsets and abilities will be a plus. finally, if you are unemployed and are licensed, it may not be a bad time to hang out your shingle. you could probably get up and running on a couple grand, work out of your house, and you may even pick up some of the small work out there. can't hurt while you're looking...
i'll add as well - don't go looking at the small firms for work. statistically, one in five will fail during the recession (according to the small business admin.). we have the least flexibility in terms of managing cash flow, the smallest room for error, and will be in a position where we have to cut expenses as quickly as we can if receivables fail to show or if the work dries up.
the best bet for a permanent job is to find a larger firm like perkins+will, who does a lot of research lab and healthcare projects. those still have money flowing in and their size makes them more attractive to clients wanting to go the design/build route.
I know a few people who have taken 30% pay cuts rather than go jobless.
I am glad i got a contract for a mental hospital ;)
laru, your 20% cut sounds light. The predictions for NY is for the construction industry to shrink from 130,000 at peak to 100,000 by 2010. That's over 25%. My guess that Architects will shrink in proportion to the rest of the industry.
I'm not in NY, but my desk is tidy, just in case.
Live within your means ... clearly the most important comment Laru made now thinking about going back to school and racking up a 6 figure debt does not make sense. Think about that grad school option again, I' ve never seen the value in getting that far into debt over school. By getting that far into debt you've bought into the whole idea of living on credit and certainly beyond your means.
Not everyone has to pay for grad school. Find a nifty grad assistant ship and have someone else pay.
there are also other alternatives for grad school - you could do a one year program somewhere (for example, auburn has a new design/build masters, as well as a real-estate/development masters which is geared more to mid-career professionals). an m-des at harvard is only one year. at least you wouldn't have to rack up the greatest amount of money going that route - heck, the way the d/b program was explained to me, they're going to try and stack it the first year so that all your tuition will be covered by a grad. asst. fellowship. basically, all you'd have to cover are living expenses. there are ways to skim by, not go crazy into debt, and come out on the other side with some improved skillsets and better positioned for the rebound.
Laru,
Just a warning to those on unemployment who hang out their shingle; in most states, if you are caught, this is a reason to terminate your unemployment benefits. To qualify for unemployment, you must be ready and willing to work. IF you are trying to run your own business, then you are not available for full time work according to unemployment offices. You would be out marketing your business instead of actively seeking employment.
This does not mean that you can't do some "consulting work" for another architecture firm (if you report the income so it can be deducted from your unemployment), They consider this part time temporary work.
You are not supposed to be starting a business while on unemployment. And just a reminder, that is one reason that self employment has its down sides; if you do start your own business, and after a year you close do to lack of work, you cannot file for unemployment.
Hey all - even though there are layoffs taking place at numerous firms, opportunities still exist. A lot of firms use these layoffs not only to decrease overhead but also to "clean house". They get rid of the dead weight, and then start looking for people better suited for the positions they do need. That's not to say everyone getting laid off is dead weight, but in many cases they just don't fit in with the current needs of the firm.
That said, get your resumes and portfolios shined up and send them to Gresham Smith, SOM, NBBJ, HOK, etc. They may be laying off, but they're also hiring.
ya firms always need people willing to work for less
change careers for the time being
or work 2 jobs i make 70 extra a day just telling people to get out and vote.
and we should probably put some numbers in perspective: right now, i'd say no more than 8% of all architects are unemployed (i'm basing that off local numbers of layoffs vs. numbers of total architects in town. very small sampling i'm afraid). my guess, again, is that we'll double, at least, from where we are.
projects simply aren't getting built or carried through the planning stages. money isn't flowing from the banks to anyone right now. a lot of good people are going to get caught in the net just like last time. my main hope is that we don't lose too many people from the profession (people who leave and never come back).
trust me, its depressing to consider we haven't even come close to the bottom yet....
I've made many comments on this thread, but perhaps what I omitted, was that if it is you, or me, who gets a spell on the rubbish heap, remember that this is not a call on your capability, or a denial of your calling to the profession. Often the choice is random, or the choice is made by a fool, or the choice is made on bases other than the skills or capabilities of those competing for the remaining seats. If it is you, or me, stay strong. Believe. Accept the present and make the future.
This sounds trite, but:
among those who will be fired, there's many who shouldn't have been. Don't take it personally
absolutely what psyarch says. no employer is going to look at being laid off as an inherent black mark in this environment. there are plenty of 'good' design firms who are poorly managed as much as the inverse. lots of people are going to be let go less because of their skills than they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This is very frightening news. I knew it was getting bad, but this is worse than I thought. I've been out of grad school for a year, worked in Japan, and came back to the States. Bad timing. I've been job hunting for 3 months. May have to call the ole' student loan company and go into economic hardship soon I guess. I saw Bed Bath and Beyond is hiring.
for a interior designer?
I've done a few B,B&beyonds, in a mixed use multi-client development project in the past.
maybe you mean retail.
personally i don't think i could stand to be in one of those stores for more than 3 min with all that off gassing.
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