I think contractors have the more materially stressful job.
With architects its far more existentially-based stress.
I, for one, never say "I built that". In fact I rarely claim design ownership; just today I told someone the bedroom addition sang because of the owner-specified furnishings. Spread the love.
at the conference i attended yesterday a construction manager was given 15 minutes to lambast architects AND owners about all of the requirements we make of them regarding everything from details to schedule to budget. i looked over at a school facilities director (basically, the 'owner'-side of some of the biggest school projects in the state) with whom i've worked in the past (also happens to be a very experienced architect) and he was HOT. his neck got all red as this contractor picked on many of the very things that he has learned to require over his years of battle scars. interesting scene.
who was wrong? i don't know. the contractor/cm seemed like he just had axes to grind, though he did make a few salient comments that will make me go back and review a few spec items. mostly he just didn't like the things that made his job harder, whether those things were warranted or not.
okay, now you've done it. I've worked with 3 different engineers in the past year and only one was willing to 'bend' the rules (no pun intended) in favor of design intent. I think they're more egotistical than Architects.
Steven- maybe another topic should be "what do contractors think of some of the notes we put on drawings and spec's"? G.C. to verify...per owner...
I knew there was an ace up your sleeve. Funny you mention about the notes on drawings, I've had contractors issue me letters (one for each point) in regards to title block notes...21 in total. hate is a strong word...but I really, really don't like you
Contractor hands down: Example, I have two condo projects that are dead in the water 80% complete due to market forces. The architect is pissed because he has $20k in unpaid billings and owes his consultants $5k or so, I do feel sorry for him in this situation. I, the contractor, have $550k in unpaid receivables and owe subs north of $400k for work they've already done. Each of us have less than 5 employees so payroll burden is about the same. Contractors leverage their cash 30-50 times for revenue volume. This is the same story even in a good market and the reason that architects (in general) don't make as much as contractors. Our risk as a contractor, both current cash flow and future liability wise, is far greater than an architect. In the current case it's going to suck for the architect, he's going to have to sue for his fees and manage cash. For me, I'm going to be sued by subcontractors, lay people off due to lack of funds for payroll and then when things get started again have no one to manage the project - that's stress.
Contractors have it worse: nothing will make you doubt the inherent goodness of man or turn you into a republican faster than working with subcontractors.
if you have a contractor that does basic work and doesnt like to "explore" other options, then they really dont have much stress... it's practically cookie/cutter for them since they have the ways that they do things....
architects tend to stress themselves out and those around them. i have worked for a few different firms after college and 1 firm was a bit layed back while this other firm was always stressed out...they were both small firms too....
i think the stress comes from the finacial aspects of the fields and not really the work side.
but then again dont try to make a person do 40 hours of work in a 2 day span....that will piss someone off..
i think that knowing the contractors and understanding both sides will help make things go smoother....
On the topic of general contractors who are irritated by what they think are superfluous requirements...
I worked with a general contractor who did not believe in coordination drawings or coordinating shop drawings among trades. They felt as though they could build directly from the architectural drawings. This led to many urgent situations where they built System A, then coordinated System B but found that System C wouldn't work because they hadn't projected far enough ahead in coordination. AND they got irritated when I asked - time and again - for coordination drawings...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't shop drawings and coordination drawings a fundamentally understood requirement of constructing commercial buildings these days?
shop dwgs should always be double checked. no matter how good you think a contractor/etc is, its always good to have a fresh set of eyes and a person that knows the project look over everything.
when i worked for a builder, we would receive arch. dwgs and would always have to tweek them, make them different,etc....simply because the archs were out of state and the project was a high end renovation.... but yet they didnt really want to vist the project at all...
there will always be issues in the field but understanding how to "try" to avoid them is the key factor.
some contractors would rather have the archs figure it out or complain that it wasnt drawn right
some archs would say that the contractors have no passion in their work.....
i'd say we simply shouldn't ASSIGN WORK at all. it's the construction manager or general contractor's job to say who does what and us mucking around with it just screws things up. if it's on the drawings, we're good. if it doesn't get picked up, it's on the guy running the construction. stay out of it!
simply because the archs were out of state and the project was a high end renovation.... but yet they didnt really want to vist the project at all...
I agree with cryzko -- communication is tough but all-important. In the case above, however, I wouldn't be surprised if the architect wanted to visit the site and be present for coordination but the client wasn't willing to pay. Happens a lot.
...Client assumes that architect just draws stuff and then contractor goes to build it, voila, no need for any changes or coordination after drawings are done, right? why should i pay for architect to just go hang out at the site? pshaw.
Clients really need to realize that completing the drawings is only 50% of architect's responsibilty and services on a job. If expectations are set right from the beginning, the whole project can go more like a team, with arch and contractor working together in the field to get everything built correctly.
In my opinion, a lot of the ill effects contractors and architects feel during building process are due to improper expectations & contract arrangements at the outset, as a team with the client. "we're not being paid for that scope" or "the coordination time isn't reflected in our bid, we just figured we'd build what was drawn" or "this project is running past deadline and now i'm out of fee, right when the most critical site coordination needs to be done" -- all these things are what produce stress and risk in both arch and contractor and can be help to be avoided with careful discussions and contract negotiations at the outset. (not that you'll ever avoid ALL that in the building process...)
When a client isn't willing to pay for CA or doesn't feel it is necessary to have the architect's involved once drawings are completed and construction has begun, the project and all said parties, suffer. Way too many times, I've seen details omitted, materials substituted and unfortunate color schemes ruin projects, in order to save a few bucks. Just today, I picked up a flyer for some decent new modern townhouses. The interiors were appalling...probably the result of the client not willing to pay a professional, since his daughter works at Pier One setting up displays. UGH!
As for drawing notes: I'm guilty of this but I hate it when I see; RE: STRUCTURAL Coordinate the shit! RE: 9/S2
tlmII-sorry to hear about your project...not much consolation but I applaud you for taking on that risk. Sure, not nearly the risk taken on by the architect but when it's a small office, you have plenty of stress, especially when you probably just utilized all your resources on 2 condo projects that you're not getting paid for...I'd sue too.
Contractors or Architects
which profession is harder, more stressful?
and why do some architects say, "I built that building"?
I think contractors have the more materially stressful job.
With architects its far more existentially-based stress.
I, for one, never say "I built that". In fact I rarely claim design ownership; just today I told someone the bedroom addition sang because of the owner-specified furnishings. Spread the love.
contractors have to deal with architects ineptitude
LB
im tryin' to spread my love...
at the conference i attended yesterday a construction manager was given 15 minutes to lambast architects AND owners about all of the requirements we make of them regarding everything from details to schedule to budget. i looked over at a school facilities director (basically, the 'owner'-side of some of the biggest school projects in the state) with whom i've worked in the past (also happens to be a very experienced architect) and he was HOT. his neck got all red as this contractor picked on many of the very things that he has learned to require over his years of battle scars. interesting scene.
who was wrong? i don't know. the contractor/cm seemed like he just had axes to grind, though he did make a few salient comments that will make me go back and review a few spec items. mostly he just didn't like the things that made his job harder, whether those things were warranted or not.
crave must be an engineer wanting to see the other fight on the card
okay, now you've done it. I've worked with 3 different engineers in the past year and only one was willing to 'bend' the rules (no pun intended) in favor of design intent. I think they're more egotistical than Architects.
Steven- maybe another topic should be "what do contractors think of some of the notes we put on drawings and spec's"? G.C. to verify...per owner...
I knew there was an ace up your sleeve. Funny you mention about the notes on drawings, I've had contractors issue me letters (one for each point) in regards to title block notes...21 in total. hate is a strong word...but I really, really don't like you
I'd write you a letter too if you said, I really don't like you on a drawing.
Contractor hands down: Example, I have two condo projects that are dead in the water 80% complete due to market forces. The architect is pissed because he has $20k in unpaid billings and owes his consultants $5k or so, I do feel sorry for him in this situation. I, the contractor, have $550k in unpaid receivables and owe subs north of $400k for work they've already done. Each of us have less than 5 employees so payroll burden is about the same. Contractors leverage their cash 30-50 times for revenue volume. This is the same story even in a good market and the reason that architects (in general) don't make as much as contractors. Our risk as a contractor, both current cash flow and future liability wise, is far greater than an architect. In the current case it's going to suck for the architect, he's going to have to sue for his fees and manage cash. For me, I'm going to be sued by subcontractors, lay people off due to lack of funds for payroll and then when things get started again have no one to manage the project - that's stress.
Contractors have it worse: nothing will make you doubt the inherent goodness of man or turn you into a republican faster than working with subcontractors.
If I personally thought that being a contractor was less stressful and more enjoyable than architecture, I would switch careers.
________________________________
On the topic of drawing notes, I've grown to understand that we shouldn't assign work with the annotation:
Instead of: "Roofing sub-contractor to provide stainless steel flashing"
...Only provide? What about install?
...Let the general contractor assign responsibility for the stainless steel flashing
We should write: "Stainless steel flashing" with a leader to the piece.
_________________________________
Instead of: "Signage by others"
...Others meaning who?
We should write: "Signage NIC"
i think it all depends...
if you have a contractor that does basic work and doesnt like to "explore" other options, then they really dont have much stress... it's practically cookie/cutter for them since they have the ways that they do things....
architects tend to stress themselves out and those around them. i have worked for a few different firms after college and 1 firm was a bit layed back while this other firm was always stressed out...they were both small firms too....
i think the stress comes from the finacial aspects of the fields and not really the work side.
but then again dont try to make a person do 40 hours of work in a 2 day span....that will piss someone off..
i think that knowing the contractors and understanding both sides will help make things go smoother....
b
On the topic of general contractors who are irritated by what they think are superfluous requirements...
I worked with a general contractor who did not believe in coordination drawings or coordinating shop drawings among trades. They felt as though they could build directly from the architectural drawings. This led to many urgent situations where they built System A, then coordinated System B but found that System C wouldn't work because they hadn't projected far enough ahead in coordination. AND they got irritated when I asked - time and again - for coordination drawings...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't shop drawings and coordination drawings a fundamentally understood requirement of constructing commercial buildings these days?
shop dwgs should always be double checked. no matter how good you think a contractor/etc is, its always good to have a fresh set of eyes and a person that knows the project look over everything.
when i worked for a builder, we would receive arch. dwgs and would always have to tweek them, make them different,etc....simply because the archs were out of state and the project was a high end renovation.... but yet they didnt really want to vist the project at all...
there will always be issues in the field but understanding how to "try" to avoid them is the key factor.
some contractors would rather have the archs figure it out or complain that it wasnt drawn right
some archs would say that the contractors have no passion in their work.....
it's really about communication.......
b
just why -
i'd say we simply shouldn't ASSIGN WORK at all. it's the construction manager or general contractor's job to say who does what and us mucking around with it just screws things up. if it's on the drawings, we're good. if it doesn't get picked up, it's on the guy running the construction. stay out of it!
I agree with cryzko -- communication is tough but all-important. In the case above, however, I wouldn't be surprised if the architect wanted to visit the site and be present for coordination but the client wasn't willing to pay. Happens a lot.
...Client assumes that architect just draws stuff and then contractor goes to build it, voila, no need for any changes or coordination after drawings are done, right? why should i pay for architect to just go hang out at the site? pshaw.
Clients really need to realize that completing the drawings is only 50% of architect's responsibilty and services on a job. If expectations are set right from the beginning, the whole project can go more like a team, with arch and contractor working together in the field to get everything built correctly.
In my opinion, a lot of the ill effects contractors and architects feel during building process are due to improper expectations & contract arrangements at the outset, as a team with the client. "we're not being paid for that scope" or "the coordination time isn't reflected in our bid, we just figured we'd build what was drawn" or "this project is running past deadline and now i'm out of fee, right when the most critical site coordination needs to be done" -- all these things are what produce stress and risk in both arch and contractor and can be help to be avoided with careful discussions and contract negotiations at the outset. (not that you'll ever avoid ALL that in the building process...)
When a client isn't willing to pay for CA or doesn't feel it is necessary to have the architect's involved once drawings are completed and construction has begun, the project and all said parties, suffer. Way too many times, I've seen details omitted, materials substituted and unfortunate color schemes ruin projects, in order to save a few bucks. Just today, I picked up a flyer for some decent new modern townhouses. The interiors were appalling...probably the result of the client not willing to pay a professional, since his daughter works at Pier One setting up displays. UGH!
As for drawing notes: I'm guilty of this but I hate it when I see;
RE: STRUCTURAL Coordinate the shit! RE: 9/S2
tlmII-sorry to hear about your project...not much consolation but I applaud you for taking on that risk. Sure, not nearly the risk taken on by the architect but when it's a small office, you have plenty of stress, especially when you probably just utilized all your resources on 2 condo projects that you're not getting paid for...I'd sue too.
good thread
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.