How do you all feel that the federal Reserve is allowing $20billion in borrowing a day and decided to put an additional $50 billion today into what are essentially private institutions? The very institutions that created their own mess?
I guess what Im asking is - someone has to pay for this. Should we bite the bullet now or let the folks 40 and under pay for this the rest of their lives?
Depends on if you want the world's financial institutions to fail. Or to bring it closer to home, think about the money you have in the bank - do you want that to disappear?
To put in perspective, the Iraq War is costing us $341 million per day.
For example that big fat bail out check for the biggest tract home builders that glutted the market with inventory. They should have let them endure the hardships of a down market they helped create. Some things will have to get bailed out. Iraq is costing some money but an issue that never gets mentioned is that we have troops and bases in all but 46 countries. What is the cost of occupying most of the world compared to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Why do we need troops in all these countries? Could we occupy less countries and pay those in the service a better wage? Can we afford to span the globe with a budget deficit.
Well, since the Fed prints their own money (see the Federal Reserve Note on the top of any U.S. bill) and they're a private bank, I guess its their money.
For example that big fat bail out check for the biggest tract home builders that glutted the market with inventory
Atom, this is what pisses me off more than any other aspect of this financial crisis we're in now. They build crap, then keep building it when they know it's a bad investment, then cry for help from us tax-paying architects.
I think you have to bail out the largest most critical institutions private or not. That said - bailing out should also come with a price - the wholesale breakup and liquidation of these companies. I doubt it will happen. too much big player politics at work. i just read that AIG will get $85billion. Thats a 1 day total of 80+20+70= $120 billion
The government has to send a signal that they will step in and shore it up and then dismantle the parts and auction them to sound practicing institutions.
I think i'm actually getting OK with corporate welfare, just as long as the assholes responsible for putting the company on section 8 get dragged into the streets and shot.
Vado - most of the big bankers on wall street proudly wear their NYC for Hillary buttons in defferance to her "hands off" wall street president who not only produced the comunity banking act of 1997 which made it nessessary for banks to create ways to get houses to people who couldnt afford them, he also allowed a trillion dollars of wealth evaporate and send investors fleeing into the mortgage game - GWB isnt smart enough to cook this up
Well actualy if you want to go wayyyy back - it goes back to employer mandated benefits packages that the unions extorted out of manufacturing giants during WW2 when they had no choice but to sign. Wall street loved the unions - pensions and insurance for all!!!! (pay for it later)
What would the actual rate for medical treatment be without insurance backed market - an actual true free market? Imagine - at one time doctors enjoyed high social status and income and camr to your house - even poor people.
Insurance should be for major medical - like disaster coverage or life insurance - let the true cost be discovered. I bet its shockingly low.
evilplatypus wrote "What would the actual rate for medical treatment be without insurance backed market - an actual true free market?"
LUCKY YOU - you haven't lost your job with coverage and had to really find that answer out for yourself. So you jest at the speculation. The answer is: reasonable and comparable to the cost for services covered by the lowest insurance plans out there on an item by item basis. The other point for an individual's consideration is the back checking missing that the insurance carriers do for you i.e. lateral movement and cost to value. Get dumped from insurance and there is no "Value Engineering" phase for your care. You want it you buy it. Lastly, without it, like all insurance coverage, you do not have a lawyer unless you buy one. Meaning you are not as likely to try and pull a malpractice suit for frills and you don't get those slimey class action checks in the mail for $80 that never really show up as a check to you.
Oh damn if I said to myself I wouldn't get into one of these political economic forum binges.
Atom - I actualy have gotten medical treatment and paid cash just so it wouldnt go down on my medical record - so Ive seen the real cost of things and was surprised to see my doctor lower the cost 30% because I paid cash.
Chalk me up in the camp of people that have paid cash for medical services. After taking a new job a few years back I got a rather nasty cold. I didn't have the money to pay COBRA so I went into the doc on my own dime. Turns out it was a nasty sinus infection. Told the doctor I was paying cash and they negotiated the price with me. Actually gave me a lower rate than they gave the insurance co's because I was saving them paperwork. All in it was under $100.
Now if I had cancer that'd be a different story, but I'm with Evilp, insurance should be for major medical and minor stuff should be out of pocket. The waste is in the paperwork and time lost for insurance/medicare/medicade crap.
This is exactly what Bin Laden wanted. He wants to bankrupt the United States. Iraq and the Republican non-oversight of Wall Street, he's getting his wish. This year we will borrow $1 trillion to deal with this mess.
This is unsustainable and we don't know if there's a hard crash coming. I hope not.
On NPR's Fresh Air yesterday, Michael Greenberger, A professor of Law at Maryland, described how the financial obligations of AIG, in the form of insurance backing the faulty sub prime mortgages, is roughly 5 trillion dollars, which the US government is now 80% responsible for. 80% of 5 trillion dollars is 4 trillion dollars, meaning that in a very real sense, the US has effectively doubled it's national debt.
If AIG insured 5 trillion dollars worth of bad loans, we're all going to have a hard time with that whether they're owned by the government our not. The defaults on those loans would mean insurance claims that would make Katrina look like a fender-bender.
I'm not sure we've doubled our national debt just by taking over AIG because the takeover of AIG is a "bridge loan". From what I understand, its a short-term injection of cash into AIG's coffers until AIG can liquidize some assets and pay the loan back. AIG has over a trillion USD in assets so paying off an 80 billion dollar loan shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The feds taking over Fannie and Freddie on the other hand was a straight up bail-out and from what I understand they are now owned primarily by the feds. For that reason, they worry me more than AIG.
hey look how a government bailout can positively impact the stock market. more bailouts mean higher stock prices. keep making bad loans keep regulatory oversight out of the free market so it can continue to be bailed out by the government and so the market will stay up...hooray for private profits and public bailouts...
VADO - your watching the result of government regulation and inaction. The SEC stood by and watched this debt bubble build. If there were no rules the market players would have to gauge their own risk and profit - something they arent doing. Thats why they should be allowed to fail in free market spendor. The stock market isnt for normal people.
I wouldnt be too excited by the 400 points the market is up yesterday and today. The bailout is going to wreck the economy for the next 10 years. Hooray for Stalinist Fed policy and fucked up rule changing on the day the options contracts expire. Do you realize they made it illeagle to short sell banks? Thats insane. Thats like saying you can buy all you want but you can tsell them until Monday.
aspect, architects are involved in less that 5% of the houses that get built, probably very few of them for subprime clients. look at the builder/developers if you want to point fingers.
I don't think architects and other designers are responsible for the sources of financing their clients secure anyhow. It isn't like we run background checks to find out which clients have Mob ties and which just cheated on their taxes.
I dont know what to make of it. I see the Dow up again but my gut is saying its a false bottom because its essentially the US government agreeing to save the banks. Why would you want to invest in something thats been foreclosed upon essentially? I could see a flight to safety of staples like General Mills, Kraft etc. But the non deposit banks seem like a time bomb.
Im dumbfounded by these turn of events. The nes says this is like the RTC bailout of the S&L's back in '90. But its not at all. Then - the RTC took ownership outright of the S&L's and auctioned off the hard assets over 8 years - they didnt spend anything. With this they want the yet unamed agency to buy all the illiquid debt and then sell it later? To whom will they sell it? When? There is much much more debt being hidden than just 4% of the mortages which are in foreclosure. Theres credit cards, theres corporate debt, theres insurance debt, theres paper debt issued by the fed.
"they should just let the whole thing hit the fu*&ing floor and get it over with."
That is exactly what it looks like they have been doing everything they can to avoid - a sudden drop. This time around they have been after a slow drop or soft landing to avoid a sudden and drastic loss of wealth. When this is all over we will have to evaluate which is better - a sudden drop or a slow suffocation.
Sep 23, 08 5:59 pm ·
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Isnt the Fed's Money our Money?
How do you all feel that the federal Reserve is allowing $20billion in borrowing a day and decided to put an additional $50 billion today into what are essentially private institutions? The very institutions that created their own mess?
I guess what Im asking is - someone has to pay for this. Should we bite the bullet now or let the folks 40 and under pay for this the rest of their lives?
Depends on if you want the world's financial institutions to fail. Or to bring it closer to home, think about the money you have in the bank - do you want that to disappear?
To put in perspective, the Iraq War is costing us $341 million per day.
welcome to ever deeper fascism
For example that big fat bail out check for the biggest tract home builders that glutted the market with inventory. They should have let them endure the hardships of a down market they helped create. Some things will have to get bailed out. Iraq is costing some money but an issue that never gets mentioned is that we have troops and bases in all but 46 countries. What is the cost of occupying most of the world compared to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Why do we need troops in all these countries? Could we occupy less countries and pay those in the service a better wage? Can we afford to span the globe with a budget deficit.
all our bases are belong to ourselfs
yeah, it is ours, go ask for some of it.
what good is a colonialism and world hegemony if you can't live there?
Well, since the Fed prints their own money (see the Federal Reserve Note on the top of any U.S. bill) and they're a private bank, I guess its their money.
Atom, this is what pisses me off more than any other aspect of this financial crisis we're in now. They build crap, then keep building it when they know it's a bad investment, then cry for help from us tax-paying architects.
I think you have to bail out the largest most critical institutions private or not. That said - bailing out should also come with a price - the wholesale breakup and liquidation of these companies. I doubt it will happen. too much big player politics at work. i just read that AIG will get $85billion. Thats a 1 day total of 80+20+70= $120 billion
The government has to send a signal that they will step in and shore it up and then dismantle the parts and auction them to sound practicing institutions.
LB - what homebuilders were bailed out? I know a bunch went BK including neuman homes.
I think i'm actually getting OK with corporate welfare, just as long as the assholes responsible for putting the company on section 8 get dragged into the streets and shot.
personally i cannot wait for the republicans to win in november and reform this mess that the republicans are responsible for...
the fed started as a banker's club centuries ago and it still is.
i would say the money is from the bank, if you don't like it, u can take all ur money out from the bank.
Vado - most of the big bankers on wall street proudly wear their NYC for Hillary buttons in defferance to her "hands off" wall street president who not only produced the comunity banking act of 1997 which made it nessessary for banks to create ways to get houses to people who couldnt afford them, he also allowed a trillion dollars of wealth evaporate and send investors fleeing into the mortgage game - GWB isnt smart enough to cook this up
this shit all started with raygun in the 80's get the government out of everything until you need a bailout...
and that banking act was revised in 2005 that reduced accountability.i read it on wikipedia!
Well actualy if you want to go wayyyy back - it goes back to employer mandated benefits packages that the unions extorted out of manufacturing giants during WW2 when they had no choice but to sign. Wall street loved the unions - pensions and insurance for all!!!! (pay for it later)
insurance for all how progressive of you...
What would the actual rate for medical treatment be without insurance backed market - an actual true free market? Imagine - at one time doctors enjoyed high social status and income and camr to your house - even poor people.
Insurance should be for major medical - like disaster coverage or life insurance - let the true cost be discovered. I bet its shockingly low.
free markets aint free...
is that what you painted on your sign back in '68?
long haired freaky people need not apply...
Awww, evilp, why so evil? Where's out positive boy?
evilplatypus wrote "What would the actual rate for medical treatment be without insurance backed market - an actual true free market?"
LUCKY YOU - you haven't lost your job with coverage and had to really find that answer out for yourself. So you jest at the speculation. The answer is: reasonable and comparable to the cost for services covered by the lowest insurance plans out there on an item by item basis. The other point for an individual's consideration is the back checking missing that the insurance carriers do for you i.e. lateral movement and cost to value. Get dumped from insurance and there is no "Value Engineering" phase for your care. You want it you buy it. Lastly, without it, like all insurance coverage, you do not have a lawyer unless you buy one. Meaning you are not as likely to try and pull a malpractice suit for frills and you don't get those slimey class action checks in the mail for $80 that never really show up as a check to you.
Oh damn if I said to myself I wouldn't get into one of these political economic forum binges.
Atom - I actualy have gotten medical treatment and paid cash just so it wouldnt go down on my medical record - so Ive seen the real cost of things and was surprised to see my doctor lower the cost 30% because I paid cash.
Think about that
Chalk me up in the camp of people that have paid cash for medical services. After taking a new job a few years back I got a rather nasty cold. I didn't have the money to pay COBRA so I went into the doc on my own dime. Turns out it was a nasty sinus infection. Told the doctor I was paying cash and they negotiated the price with me. Actually gave me a lower rate than they gave the insurance co's because I was saving them paperwork. All in it was under $100.
Now if I had cancer that'd be a different story, but I'm with Evilp, insurance should be for major medical and minor stuff should be out of pocket. The waste is in the paperwork and time lost for insurance/medicare/medicade crap.
So... we all just accepting ep's math then...
"i just read that AIG will get $85billion. Thats a 1 day total of 80+20+70= $120 billion"
I'm just saying....
thanks - synergy
btw - on Nightline last night they said the cost of the whole bailout so far this year is $800 billion
Does that figure include the economic stimulus package?
no
This is exactly what Bin Laden wanted. He wants to bankrupt the United States. Iraq and the Republican non-oversight of Wall Street, he's getting his wish. This year we will borrow $1 trillion to deal with this mess.
This is unsustainable and we don't know if there's a hard crash coming. I hope not.
Does anyone speculate that inflation will be next?
On NPR's Fresh Air yesterday, Michael Greenberger, A professor of Law at Maryland, described how the financial obligations of AIG, in the form of insurance backing the faulty sub prime mortgages, is roughly 5 trillion dollars, which the US government is now 80% responsible for. 80% of 5 trillion dollars is 4 trillion dollars, meaning that in a very real sense, the US has effectively doubled it's national debt.
If AIG insured 5 trillion dollars worth of bad loans, we're all going to have a hard time with that whether they're owned by the government our not. The defaults on those loans would mean insurance claims that would make Katrina look like a fender-bender.
I'm not sure we've doubled our national debt just by taking over AIG because the takeover of AIG is a "bridge loan". From what I understand, its a short-term injection of cash into AIG's coffers until AIG can liquidize some assets and pay the loan back. AIG has over a trillion USD in assets so paying off an 80 billion dollar loan shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The feds taking over Fannie and Freddie on the other hand was a straight up bail-out and from what I understand they are now owned primarily by the feds. For that reason, they worry me more than AIG.
hey look how a government bailout can positively impact the stock market. more bailouts mean higher stock prices. keep making bad loans keep regulatory oversight out of the free market so it can continue to be bailed out by the government and so the market will stay up...hooray for private profits and public bailouts...
Have you guys read the news this morning? Word on the street is the Gov is setting up to buy most of if not all of the bad loans.
Now THAT is a motherfuckin' bailout.
dun act innocent ur part of it!
architect got paid to built sub-prime houses...
VADO - your watching the result of government regulation and inaction. The SEC stood by and watched this debt bubble build. If there were no rules the market players would have to gauge their own risk and profit - something they arent doing. Thats why they should be allowed to fail in free market spendor. The stock market isnt for normal people.
I wouldnt be too excited by the 400 points the market is up yesterday and today. The bailout is going to wreck the economy for the next 10 years. Hooray for Stalinist Fed policy and fucked up rule changing on the day the options contracts expire. Do you realize they made it illeagle to short sell banks? Thats insane. Thats like saying you can buy all you want but you can tsell them until Monday.
Yesterday and today are the biggest market manipulations the government ever created and it will be exposed in time.
aspect, architects are involved in less that 5% of the houses that get built, probably very few of them for subprime clients. look at the builder/developers if you want to point fingers.
really? in the US, can dun need architect to apply permit to build houses??
typo> u dun need
nope. just a guy with a pickup truck and a hose, if he can show a house plan and a wall section to the plan reviewer.
I don't think architects and other designers are responsible for the sources of financing their clients secure anyhow. It isn't like we run background checks to find out which clients have Mob ties and which just cheated on their taxes.
there goes the last of our generation's social security checks.
Welcome to the 14th century folks. it won't be long now.
ever notice the symbol of Capitalism is a snake eating its own tail ?
...eventually it eats itself completely.
I dont know what to make of it. I see the Dow up again but my gut is saying its a false bottom because its essentially the US government agreeing to save the banks. Why would you want to invest in something thats been foreclosed upon essentially? I could see a flight to safety of staples like General Mills, Kraft etc. But the non deposit banks seem like a time bomb.
Im dumbfounded by these turn of events. The nes says this is like the RTC bailout of the S&L's back in '90. But its not at all. Then - the RTC took ownership outright of the S&L's and auctioned off the hard assets over 8 years - they didnt spend anything. With this they want the yet unamed agency to buy all the illiquid debt and then sell it later? To whom will they sell it? When? There is much much more debt being hidden than just 4% of the mortages which are in foreclosure. Theres credit cards, theres corporate debt, theres insurance debt, theres paper debt issued by the fed.
I fear a currency revaluation is comming.
they should just let the whole thing hit the fu*&ing floor and get it over with. ridiculous. why should we bail these idiots out ??
so we can just drag it on longer and longer, deeper and deeper
"they should just let the whole thing hit the fu*&ing floor and get it over with."
That is exactly what it looks like they have been doing everything they can to avoid - a sudden drop. This time around they have been after a slow drop or soft landing to avoid a sudden and drastic loss of wealth. When this is all over we will have to evaluate which is better - a sudden drop or a slow suffocation.
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