our office recently asked us to work overtime with no immediate reimbursement, with the understanding that this would go on for at least several months, and that we would ideally be reimbursed through end of year (december) bonuses.
im planning on leaving this firm in january/february of 09 for another offer i've received; i requested this delayed transition so that i could take advantage of the bonus (something i will have definitely worked overtime for and something i think i will have earned throughout the entire past year).
my question: is this an a-hole thing to do? i dont intend to slack in the meantime - im actually working harder than ever and making the most of my time at my current office. but im wondering what those who own offices or work in upper management would think of this timing, especially since ive grown to respect a lot of the people i work with/for and would not want to come off as disrespectful.
or is in an a-hole thing for the office to do to you guys? waiving meat in front of you saying the only way to eat is to get to the finish line. Thats pretty shitty in my opinion. though i guess i could understand if its an economics issue within the firm that simply cannot afford to pay you guys extra for your extra time until the end.
i wouldn't think so though. especially if the bonus is biased off of you busting your butt for these few months.
guys - the difference between being a factory worker and a professional is that factory workers get paid by the hour and architects get paid to get it done. If you want guaranteed overtime, a 9 am coffee break, and 45 min. lunch - become a union plumber.
When I tendered my resignation during the month of September at a previous firm, the CFO actually said to me, "You're so close to the end-of-year bonus," as if I were making a mistake by leaving early. However, I had made a decision that it was time to go, and I didn't want to be thought of as "that girl" who stayed around just long enough to collect my bonus.
I do think employers brace themselves for employees leaving after bonus pay-outs, however.
different firms will take different approaches to the "risk / reward" ratio. some firms - typically larger, more established firms - will pay for every hour worked and then not provide much in the way of year-end bonuses. in such cases, the owners of the firm have taken 100% of the financial risk and keep the bulk of the profits for themselves.
other firms - typically smaller, less established firms - will put almost everybody on salary (even recent graduates) and not pay for overtime worked. in this latter type of firm the employees share in the economic risk of the firm -- if the firm does not, or cannot, compensate the staff for that risk at year-end, they will lose those employees. I've seen some firms of this type where some employees may receive bonuses approaching 50-75% (or more) of their base salaries, although those amounts accrue only to the most outstanding performers who have put in prodigeous effort.
firm's that rely on the strong bonus approach must establish a strong relationship of trust with their staff -- if that trust is abused (for reasons other than extraordinary circumstances, such as the aftermath of 9/11) there will be high turnover and low motivation.
yoyo_k: nobody here can really help you much with your decision -- you'll just have to make a judgement about what's best for you. however, you might consider checking around with some of the more senior members of the firm to get a feel for how these things have unfolded in the past. if the old hands feel like their past efforts have been well rewarded, then you're probably not taking on much risk. if you've got good feelings about those who work around you, them I'm guessing this will be okay for you.
so, IMHO, it's not "an a-hole thing to do" ... I've seen it many times at many firms in the past. more often than not, it works out well for all parties. but, on this I want to be absolutely clear, there are no guarantees.
thanks for the feedback...to respond a bit:
i also don't want to be "that person" who makes money central to career moves [in that i wait around for a bonus - i wont be increasing my pay with my new job...hopefully eventually though!]. but it seems like we (architects) are always so willing to sacrifice our own financial growth/success. if i didn't have a spouse pushing me to ask for what i deserve, i'd probably work for pennies. so in this case, since i'm putting in the additional overtime (on top of the normal misc. overtime i would work to finish a project) and taking the risk, as quizzical put it, on a bonus to compensate, it seems unfair to myself to leave just shy of receiving that bonus.
[i should probably clarify that this job move was decided before the overtime request from my current firm; it's been delayed for various reasons, but i would be leaving my current firm regardless of the unpaid extra overtime.]
i guess i already had my mind made up to wait till the new year after i have received my bonus...just looking for other people's take on the situation...
Why on earth wouldn't you make money central to career moves? Or at least at a shared center. It's a job. You have a life to support. I would be ashamed of myself if I *didn't* consider money as an important motivator in career changes. Also, if you aren't increasing your pay with a new job, you are doing something wrong. You act like that's something to be proud of; most people would say that shows a bad understanding of normal business procedures. Do you not think you've learned anything at all at your current firm? Do you not think you have something to offer this new firm?
There is nothing at all wrong with waiting till you get your bonus to leave. It is a business. At some point you were destined to leave that job. It's not like you were going to be there for the rest of your life. So you pick a day, you quit, they say goodbye and everyone moves on. It's a BUSINESS.
mantaray: not every person is motivated by the same things.
some of us are more highly motivated by non-monetary considerations / others won't do anything without direct financial compensation. we all are free to make these decisions as we see fit.
there's no reason to be scornful simply because someone else doesn't see these matters as do you.
i once took a new job at reduced pay and it was the best thing i ever did. i had moved to a new city and was offered a job with one of the best firms in town (having come from a not-so-good firm) within a week. i stayed there for 10yrs.
if someone else had offered me more money first, i'm still convinced it would have been a mistake. and it would have been a huge mistake not to have moved. so, yeah, like quiz said, all situations are different and based on a complicated balance of personal values.
Steven and quiz, I've also made the same decision in the past. (re: taking a job for less money than I was making because it was what I wanted to do.) I did not say money should be THE primary motivator in a career change; I said that it should be A motivator.
What bothers me is not the decision the poster made (absolutely not!) but the poster's attitude that money is bad and the implication that he/she would have felt ashamed if he had pursued money. In fact -- not even pursued money, but acknowledged that it was a motivator.
To act as though money is dirty and as though an architect is lowered by considering it is an attitude I find frequently in this profession and much of the time it only serves to make us chumps.
I worded my post more strongly than perhaps it needed to be (now that I'm re-reading it) but only because this poster seems to really need to hear that it's ok to think about the financial aspect of career changes and to place importance on those needs. The poster himself admitted that he would "work for pennies" and I felt he strongly needed to hear the opposite position. You and Steven, Quizzical, clearly know better, but the poster seemed to have such a lop-sided viewpoint that I came on strong to counteract it from the other side. I apologize if I seemed scornful, I only intended to be strident.
Architects seem to have a tendency to believe that our career is some kind of 100% perfect gift from the heavens but in fact it is a business -- albeit a nicely fulfilling one -- and should also be considered as such.
i suppose what i was trying to say was that i dont want to leave my current firm thinking i took what i could get and left. and i suppose that if they thought that, i probably shouldn't be too concerned of their opinion. but it's something i think about.
sidenote: im still young in my practice, yes, so while i find it very easy to preach to my peers that we should fight for what we deserve/earned, i also have a hard time putting a price on something i am so passionate about when it comes to my own decisions. because, if i could just practice and continue to make what i make now with cost of living increases, so long as i was practicing where/how i wanted...i might be ok with that. (at least i feel that way right now...) but i recognize that my bosses are making profits from my work and that i have earned a share of that, due in salary and bonuses, if they offer those. perhaps the financial understanding will come with time.
also, the financial aspect is that - an aspect. it's something i considered when making the decision, and it's something i have included in all discussions at the new office. financially, it's about a lateral move. but it's to a firm i respect more than almost any other in this city and a place i will be able to help start up from the beginning - an opportunity i can't pass up.
are you certain that you will receive a bonus worth waiting for? some "bonuses" really aren't worth staying around for. do you expect it to be in the thousands? the hundreds? a fruit basket??? jsut becaus the boss is driving a (insert luxury german brand here) doesn't mean you will see very much of it...
i'm fairly certain it's a bonus worth waiting for, from my own past experience (thousand(s) maybe?). there's no way to know for certain until it's in my account, but i think it's a risk worth taking, especially since the current job is pretty decent and it wouldn't be the end of the world for me to have a few more months there...
Some larger firms in which I worked would calculate pro-rated bonuses for people who had left during the year, and pay them those bonus even after they left. Usually this is done in a situation in which employees have been promised in some documented form (in a written memo or email) that bonuses are to be expected...
But on the other end of the spectrum are firms that would tell employees that bonuses were coming (so please just tolerate whatever poor conditions are going on right now) but then delayed the bonuses and/or didn't pay out as much as they might have hinted at...
Fortunately I never worked anyplace that didn't give bonuses at all once they'd been dangled in front of us - but I did have experience with finally getting the promised "year end bonus" in March, and another experience with getting only about 67% of what I'd been told I could expect.
In both cases the firm was waiting on multiple clients to pay up on large projects - so there were factors involved that weren't entirely in the firms' control.
If you can hold out until bonus time then do so, and don't feel guilty about leaving fairly soon afterward. If the bonus comes through then that's money you already worked for and are entitled to and you should not feel that you need to put in extra months afterward to somehow compensate the firm and/or not appear greedy and ungrateful.
But personally, due to experiences described above, I wouldn't necessarily delay a career move over a dangled promise of a bonus. If a good opportunity presented itself I'd probably take it - and I'd try to negotiate collecting at least some of the promised bonus even if it comes through after I've left - since it was promised as compensation for the work you're doing NOW.
Some larger firms in which I worked would calculate pro-rated bonuses for people who had left during the year, and pay them those bonus even after they left. Usually this is done in a situation in which employees have been promised in some documented form (in a written memo or email) that bonuses are to be expected...
But on the other end of the spectrum are firms that would tell employees that bonuses were coming (so please just tolerate whatever poor conditions are going on right now) but then delayed the bonuses and/or didn't pay out as much as they might have hinted at...
Fortunately I never worked anyplace that didn't give bonuses at all once they'd been dangled in front of us - but I did have experience with finally getting the promised "year end bonus" in March, and another experience with getting only about 67% of what I'd been told I could expect.
In both cases the firm was waiting on multiple clients to pay up on large projects - so there were factors involved that weren't entirely in the firms' control.
If you can hold out until bonus time then do so, and don't feel guilty about leaving fairly soon afterward. If the bonus comes through then that's money you already worked for and are entitled to and you should not feel that you need to put in extra months afterward to somehow compensate the firm and/or not appear greedy and ungrateful.
But personally, due to experiences described above, I wouldn't necessarily delay a career move over a dangled promise of a bonus. If a good opportunity presented itself I'd probably take it - and I'd try to negotiate collecting at least some of the promised bonus even if it comes through after I've left - since it was promised as compensation for the work you're doing NOW.
There have been times in the past when our firm has needed to hire someone in the October-December quarter of the year. When the candidate was reluctant to forego his/her bonus at the former employer, we have - on occasion - negotiated with the candidate to "replace" the bonus at our end. If both parties approach this as a logical approach and don't try to abuse the other party, something equitable typically can be worked out.
A bonus is for work you DID, not for work you are going to do. It's totally ok to leave shortly after receiving a "bonus" (aka fair compensation) for the work you have already accomplished. Your time frame is totally fair - plenty of time to warn your current employer of your departure and make sure that your projects are taken care of when you go.
I had the same take-the-bonus-and-run dilemma at one point and quizzed friends in other fields about it. According to my informal poll of non-design professionals, resigning after bonus payout is not an outrage. In fact, I was told by a few that their employers expect a bit of attrition after bonuses are distributed.
Personally, I think in a time of declining wages, you have to be vigilant about what is yours. Architects like the posters above see passion and commitment as synonymous with poverty.
I agree with SurfaceS, that a bonus is earned for the prior year of great work - as well as sharing in the risk that quizzical describes. It's not a gift from your employer or a bribe to stay on.
I vote for working hard as you stay on, collect your bonus, make a professional departure and embrace the next opportunity in your career! Good luck.
First of all, this is a very interesting conversation. I just registered with Archinect today so I was enlightened to read everyone's input. (For your information, I have six years experience in the field.)
Anyway, I just went through a very similar scenario not more than 5 months ago. . . .I ended up taking the job at the new company and forfeiting the bonus at my previous employer.
When I look back on it, I feel a little upset that I let go of a potentially very large bonus, but I walked into a very positive situation at my new job.
At the time of the discernment, I was only two months away from bonus time. During negotiation, I told the new employer that I would not be able to start until after I got my bonus. I felt that I deserved the bonus because it was a reward for the previous year's hard work. But, that would mean that I would be waiting for 2 1/2 months, working half ass when I was very excited about this new opportunity.
But, it was not just my "passion" for a new opportunity that enticed me. I have a family with a 2 year old and another kid on the way. I was absolutely interested in the money also. So, I negotiated a substantial 23% raise. (This includes better health insurance premium. The raise itself was 17%.)
During the negotiation, I was second guessing my decision to wait until the bonus to jump ship. So, I changed my mind because the raise was substantial, the benefits were better, I would have more design opportunities, and there was a signing bonus. Oh, and I would be getting a raise just for passing the ARE, which I was very close to doing. I still would be leaving a very large bonus behind, but something in my gut told me to jump at this opportunity. I also talked to several people inside and out of the architecture profession who sensed my excitement at this new opportunity and suggested that I follow my gut.
But, I agree that it depends on your particular situation. I was able to negotiate a much larger raise because they came after me. To let go of a bonus, you better get a pretty large raise and even a signing bonus. Also, I would not let guilt be a deciding factor. Architecture is both a practice and business so it's gotta be about opportunity and compensation both.
Sometimes, I grimace when I think about how much money I gave up with the bonus, but things are going so well at my new job that I don't reflect on it too much. Plus, I just passed the ARE so I'll get a another raise soon anyway.
Lucky ducks...I've never worked for a firm that gave bonuses. Wait, actually my last employer handed out a cool magnet set with little balls and rods that stick to one another and challenged us to build something out of them. Oh, and I made out with a coffee mug with the company logo on it...and a few paper clips.
Another company I worked for received a 50 thousand dollar bonus from a developer for finishing a job one month in advance. We never saw a nickel but my boss pulled up in a sweet 5 series BMW about 2 weeks later.
Sadly, scribble, I think your story is more common than not in this profession!
For the first decade of my career I received a single bonus that amounted to less than a month's student loan payment. Years later, I receivd a very generous bonus of cash and guilt from partners who insisted that they were 'giving' me the $ - as opposed to my earning the bonus by sharing their risk.
Your story and mine condition architects to think that compensation is something deserved by other kinds of professionals - the same mindset that led to yoyo_k's dilemma at the beginning of this thread!
We deserve better - but that's only going to happen by taking our own risks to get the reward...
Sadly, there is still too much of old-school mentallity that architects should be starving artists and it's just about creating pieces of art. Which, I think, when it comes to down times in the economy much as they are now, gets us in a boat-load of trouble. Architects need to realize that this a business - and a professional one at that. There is absolutely no excuse for the kind of management that permeates this field.
We have just as much/slightly less/more education than lawyers, doctors, bankers, etc., and yet we sit on a financial playing field with the MTA toll-booth workers in NYC (no offense to them). It's almost frowned upon (as we've seen in this thread) to actually pursue money in this field. There's no reason that architects shouldn't push for higher salaries, greater respect, higher fees, etc.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with a professional organization that is too busy kissing our own asses and giving awards than actually being an advocate for the profession. I think we're finally getting to a new generation of architects that are coming out of school with$100k in school loans and finding it disgusting that you're lucky to make $35k a year when you graduate. Pretty much the biggest sack of BS around.
And yes, I do plan on putting my words into action - I have finished 7 or 9 exams and plan to make my voice heard loud and clear in the AIA once I can become a full member. It's about time some of us actually step up, stop moaning, and treat this field as the actual profession that it is. We should be making money, and not feeling guilty about it.
The firm I work for is in financial straights. I really doubt we will be seeing too many bonuses. I've been "flirting" with some other firms who are doing extremely well and in all likelihood if my current firm can't pony up and give us bonuses let alone raises (after our yearly reviews which is just around the corner), I am going to consider other options.
Problem is I am working on a project with an incredibly knowledgeable PM and have some very decent responsibilities for someone of my age/experience category. I hope I'm not rushing too far into this.
In retrospect though, one advantage of leaving is that I would be going for a broader opportunity in a firm that is a far better cultural fit for me.
Very confused at this point.
Sep 15, 08 2:29 pm ·
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bonus and quitting...
our office recently asked us to work overtime with no immediate reimbursement, with the understanding that this would go on for at least several months, and that we would ideally be reimbursed through end of year (december) bonuses.
im planning on leaving this firm in january/february of 09 for another offer i've received; i requested this delayed transition so that i could take advantage of the bonus (something i will have definitely worked overtime for and something i think i will have earned throughout the entire past year).
my question: is this an a-hole thing to do? i dont intend to slack in the meantime - im actually working harder than ever and making the most of my time at my current office. but im wondering what those who own offices or work in upper management would think of this timing, especially since ive grown to respect a lot of the people i work with/for and would not want to come off as disrespectful.
or is in an a-hole thing for the office to do to you guys? waiving meat in front of you saying the only way to eat is to get to the finish line. Thats pretty shitty in my opinion. though i guess i could understand if its an economics issue within the firm that simply cannot afford to pay you guys extra for your extra time until the end.
i wouldn't think so though. especially if the bonus is biased off of you busting your butt for these few months.
do whats best for you.
guys - the difference between being a factory worker and a professional is that factory workers get paid by the hour and architects get paid to get it done. If you want guaranteed overtime, a 9 am coffee break, and 45 min. lunch - become a union plumber.
When I tendered my resignation during the month of September at a previous firm, the CFO actually said to me, "You're so close to the end-of-year bonus," as if I were making a mistake by leaving early. However, I had made a decision that it was time to go, and I didn't want to be thought of as "that girl" who stayed around just long enough to collect my bonus.
I do think employers brace themselves for employees leaving after bonus pay-outs, however.
different firms will take different approaches to the "risk / reward" ratio. some firms - typically larger, more established firms - will pay for every hour worked and then not provide much in the way of year-end bonuses. in such cases, the owners of the firm have taken 100% of the financial risk and keep the bulk of the profits for themselves.
other firms - typically smaller, less established firms - will put almost everybody on salary (even recent graduates) and not pay for overtime worked. in this latter type of firm the employees share in the economic risk of the firm -- if the firm does not, or cannot, compensate the staff for that risk at year-end, they will lose those employees. I've seen some firms of this type where some employees may receive bonuses approaching 50-75% (or more) of their base salaries, although those amounts accrue only to the most outstanding performers who have put in prodigeous effort.
firm's that rely on the strong bonus approach must establish a strong relationship of trust with their staff -- if that trust is abused (for reasons other than extraordinary circumstances, such as the aftermath of 9/11) there will be high turnover and low motivation.
yoyo_k: nobody here can really help you much with your decision -- you'll just have to make a judgement about what's best for you. however, you might consider checking around with some of the more senior members of the firm to get a feel for how these things have unfolded in the past. if the old hands feel like their past efforts have been well rewarded, then you're probably not taking on much risk. if you've got good feelings about those who work around you, them I'm guessing this will be okay for you.
so, IMHO, it's not "an a-hole thing to do" ... I've seen it many times at many firms in the past. more often than not, it works out well for all parties. but, on this I want to be absolutely clear, there are no guarantees.
good luck.
thanks for the feedback...to respond a bit:
i also don't want to be "that person" who makes money central to career moves [in that i wait around for a bonus - i wont be increasing my pay with my new job...hopefully eventually though!]. but it seems like we (architects) are always so willing to sacrifice our own financial growth/success. if i didn't have a spouse pushing me to ask for what i deserve, i'd probably work for pennies. so in this case, since i'm putting in the additional overtime (on top of the normal misc. overtime i would work to finish a project) and taking the risk, as quizzical put it, on a bonus to compensate, it seems unfair to myself to leave just shy of receiving that bonus.
[i should probably clarify that this job move was decided before the overtime request from my current firm; it's been delayed for various reasons, but i would be leaving my current firm regardless of the unpaid extra overtime.]
i guess i already had my mind made up to wait till the new year after i have received my bonus...just looking for other people's take on the situation...
Why on earth wouldn't you make money central to career moves? Or at least at a shared center. It's a job. You have a life to support. I would be ashamed of myself if I *didn't* consider money as an important motivator in career changes. Also, if you aren't increasing your pay with a new job, you are doing something wrong. You act like that's something to be proud of; most people would say that shows a bad understanding of normal business procedures. Do you not think you've learned anything at all at your current firm? Do you not think you have something to offer this new firm?
There is nothing at all wrong with waiting till you get your bonus to leave. It is a business. At some point you were destined to leave that job. It's not like you were going to be there for the rest of your life. So you pick a day, you quit, they say goodbye and everyone moves on. It's a BUSINESS.
if architecture is a JOB then ...... man we see different worlds.
mantaray: not every person is motivated by the same things.
some of us are more highly motivated by non-monetary considerations / others won't do anything without direct financial compensation. we all are free to make these decisions as we see fit.
there's no reason to be scornful simply because someone else doesn't see these matters as do you.
i once took a new job at reduced pay and it was the best thing i ever did. i had moved to a new city and was offered a job with one of the best firms in town (having come from a not-so-good firm) within a week. i stayed there for 10yrs.
if someone else had offered me more money first, i'm still convinced it would have been a mistake. and it would have been a huge mistake not to have moved. so, yeah, like quiz said, all situations are different and based on a complicated balance of personal values.
Steven and quiz, I've also made the same decision in the past. (re: taking a job for less money than I was making because it was what I wanted to do.) I did not say money should be THE primary motivator in a career change; I said that it should be A motivator.
What bothers me is not the decision the poster made (absolutely not!) but the poster's attitude that money is bad and the implication that he/she would have felt ashamed if he had pursued money. In fact -- not even pursued money, but acknowledged that it was a motivator.
To act as though money is dirty and as though an architect is lowered by considering it is an attitude I find frequently in this profession and much of the time it only serves to make us chumps.
I worded my post more strongly than perhaps it needed to be (now that I'm re-reading it) but only because this poster seems to really need to hear that it's ok to think about the financial aspect of career changes and to place importance on those needs. The poster himself admitted that he would "work for pennies" and I felt he strongly needed to hear the opposite position. You and Steven, Quizzical, clearly know better, but the poster seemed to have such a lop-sided viewpoint that I came on strong to counteract it from the other side. I apologize if I seemed scornful, I only intended to be strident.
Architects seem to have a tendency to believe that our career is some kind of 100% perfect gift from the heavens but in fact it is a business -- albeit a nicely fulfilling one -- and should also be considered as such.
i suppose what i was trying to say was that i dont want to leave my current firm thinking i took what i could get and left. and i suppose that if they thought that, i probably shouldn't be too concerned of their opinion. but it's something i think about.
sidenote: im still young in my practice, yes, so while i find it very easy to preach to my peers that we should fight for what we deserve/earned, i also have a hard time putting a price on something i am so passionate about when it comes to my own decisions. because, if i could just practice and continue to make what i make now with cost of living increases, so long as i was practicing where/how i wanted...i might be ok with that. (at least i feel that way right now...) but i recognize that my bosses are making profits from my work and that i have earned a share of that, due in salary and bonuses, if they offer those. perhaps the financial understanding will come with time.
also, the financial aspect is that - an aspect. it's something i considered when making the decision, and it's something i have included in all discussions at the new office. financially, it's about a lateral move. but it's to a firm i respect more than almost any other in this city and a place i will be able to help start up from the beginning - an opportunity i can't pass up.
are you certain that you will receive a bonus worth waiting for? some "bonuses" really aren't worth staying around for. do you expect it to be in the thousands? the hundreds? a fruit basket??? jsut becaus the boss is driving a (insert luxury german brand here) doesn't mean you will see very much of it...
i'm fairly certain it's a bonus worth waiting for, from my own past experience (thousand(s) maybe?). there's no way to know for certain until it's in my account, but i think it's a risk worth taking, especially since the current job is pretty decent and it wouldn't be the end of the world for me to have a few more months there...
if you earned the money (bonus) collect it and go...I took my vacation time at one office and then gave my 2 weeks when I returned...
Some larger firms in which I worked would calculate pro-rated bonuses for people who had left during the year, and pay them those bonus even after they left. Usually this is done in a situation in which employees have been promised in some documented form (in a written memo or email) that bonuses are to be expected...
But on the other end of the spectrum are firms that would tell employees that bonuses were coming (so please just tolerate whatever poor conditions are going on right now) but then delayed the bonuses and/or didn't pay out as much as they might have hinted at...
Fortunately I never worked anyplace that didn't give bonuses at all once they'd been dangled in front of us - but I did have experience with finally getting the promised "year end bonus" in March, and another experience with getting only about 67% of what I'd been told I could expect.
In both cases the firm was waiting on multiple clients to pay up on large projects - so there were factors involved that weren't entirely in the firms' control.
If you can hold out until bonus time then do so, and don't feel guilty about leaving fairly soon afterward. If the bonus comes through then that's money you already worked for and are entitled to and you should not feel that you need to put in extra months afterward to somehow compensate the firm and/or not appear greedy and ungrateful.
But personally, due to experiences described above, I wouldn't necessarily delay a career move over a dangled promise of a bonus. If a good opportunity presented itself I'd probably take it - and I'd try to negotiate collecting at least some of the promised bonus even if it comes through after I've left - since it was promised as compensation for the work you're doing NOW.
Some larger firms in which I worked would calculate pro-rated bonuses for people who had left during the year, and pay them those bonus even after they left. Usually this is done in a situation in which employees have been promised in some documented form (in a written memo or email) that bonuses are to be expected...
But on the other end of the spectrum are firms that would tell employees that bonuses were coming (so please just tolerate whatever poor conditions are going on right now) but then delayed the bonuses and/or didn't pay out as much as they might have hinted at...
Fortunately I never worked anyplace that didn't give bonuses at all once they'd been dangled in front of us - but I did have experience with finally getting the promised "year end bonus" in March, and another experience with getting only about 67% of what I'd been told I could expect.
In both cases the firm was waiting on multiple clients to pay up on large projects - so there were factors involved that weren't entirely in the firms' control.
If you can hold out until bonus time then do so, and don't feel guilty about leaving fairly soon afterward. If the bonus comes through then that's money you already worked for and are entitled to and you should not feel that you need to put in extra months afterward to somehow compensate the firm and/or not appear greedy and ungrateful.
But personally, due to experiences described above, I wouldn't necessarily delay a career move over a dangled promise of a bonus. If a good opportunity presented itself I'd probably take it - and I'd try to negotiate collecting at least some of the promised bonus even if it comes through after I've left - since it was promised as compensation for the work you're doing NOW.
There have been times in the past when our firm has needed to hire someone in the October-December quarter of the year. When the candidate was reluctant to forego his/her bonus at the former employer, we have - on occasion - negotiated with the candidate to "replace" the bonus at our end. If both parties approach this as a logical approach and don't try to abuse the other party, something equitable typically can be worked out.
A bonus is for work you DID, not for work you are going to do. It's totally ok to leave shortly after receiving a "bonus" (aka fair compensation) for the work you have already accomplished. Your time frame is totally fair - plenty of time to warn your current employer of your departure and make sure that your projects are taken care of when you go.
I had the same take-the-bonus-and-run dilemma at one point and quizzed friends in other fields about it. According to my informal poll of non-design professionals, resigning after bonus payout is not an outrage. In fact, I was told by a few that their employers expect a bit of attrition after bonuses are distributed.
Personally, I think in a time of declining wages, you have to be vigilant about what is yours. Architects like the posters above see passion and commitment as synonymous with poverty.
I agree with SurfaceS, that a bonus is earned for the prior year of great work - as well as sharing in the risk that quizzical describes. It's not a gift from your employer or a bribe to stay on.
I vote for working hard as you stay on, collect your bonus, make a professional departure and embrace the next opportunity in your career! Good luck.
thanks everyone for your thoughts/opinions - this has definitely been helpful!
First of all, this is a very interesting conversation. I just registered with Archinect today so I was enlightened to read everyone's input. (For your information, I have six years experience in the field.)
Anyway, I just went through a very similar scenario not more than 5 months ago. . . .I ended up taking the job at the new company and forfeiting the bonus at my previous employer.
When I look back on it, I feel a little upset that I let go of a potentially very large bonus, but I walked into a very positive situation at my new job.
At the time of the discernment, I was only two months away from bonus time. During negotiation, I told the new employer that I would not be able to start until after I got my bonus. I felt that I deserved the bonus because it was a reward for the previous year's hard work. But, that would mean that I would be waiting for 2 1/2 months, working half ass when I was very excited about this new opportunity.
But, it was not just my "passion" for a new opportunity that enticed me. I have a family with a 2 year old and another kid on the way. I was absolutely interested in the money also. So, I negotiated a substantial 23% raise. (This includes better health insurance premium. The raise itself was 17%.)
During the negotiation, I was second guessing my decision to wait until the bonus to jump ship. So, I changed my mind because the raise was substantial, the benefits were better, I would have more design opportunities, and there was a signing bonus. Oh, and I would be getting a raise just for passing the ARE, which I was very close to doing. I still would be leaving a very large bonus behind, but something in my gut told me to jump at this opportunity. I also talked to several people inside and out of the architecture profession who sensed my excitement at this new opportunity and suggested that I follow my gut.
But, I agree that it depends on your particular situation. I was able to negotiate a much larger raise because they came after me. To let go of a bonus, you better get a pretty large raise and even a signing bonus. Also, I would not let guilt be a deciding factor. Architecture is both a practice and business so it's gotta be about opportunity and compensation both.
Sometimes, I grimace when I think about how much money I gave up with the bonus, but things are going so well at my new job that I don't reflect on it too much. Plus, I just passed the ARE so I'll get a another raise soon anyway.
Good luck!
Lucky ducks...I've never worked for a firm that gave bonuses. Wait, actually my last employer handed out a cool magnet set with little balls and rods that stick to one another and challenged us to build something out of them. Oh, and I made out with a coffee mug with the company logo on it...and a few paper clips.
Another company I worked for received a 50 thousand dollar bonus from a developer for finishing a job one month in advance. We never saw a nickel but my boss pulled up in a sweet 5 series BMW about 2 weeks later.
Sadly, scribble, I think your story is more common than not in this profession!
For the first decade of my career I received a single bonus that amounted to less than a month's student loan payment. Years later, I receivd a very generous bonus of cash and guilt from partners who insisted that they were 'giving' me the $ - as opposed to my earning the bonus by sharing their risk.
Your story and mine condition architects to think that compensation is something deserved by other kinds of professionals - the same mindset that led to yoyo_k's dilemma at the beginning of this thread!
We deserve better - but that's only going to happen by taking our own risks to get the reward...
Sadly, there is still too much of old-school mentallity that architects should be starving artists and it's just about creating pieces of art. Which, I think, when it comes to down times in the economy much as they are now, gets us in a boat-load of trouble. Architects need to realize that this a business - and a professional one at that. There is absolutely no excuse for the kind of management that permeates this field.
We have just as much/slightly less/more education than lawyers, doctors, bankers, etc., and yet we sit on a financial playing field with the MTA toll-booth workers in NYC (no offense to them). It's almost frowned upon (as we've seen in this thread) to actually pursue money in this field. There's no reason that architects shouldn't push for higher salaries, greater respect, higher fees, etc.
Unfortunately, we're stuck with a professional organization that is too busy kissing our own asses and giving awards than actually being an advocate for the profession. I think we're finally getting to a new generation of architects that are coming out of school with$100k in school loans and finding it disgusting that you're lucky to make $35k a year when you graduate. Pretty much the biggest sack of BS around.
And yes, I do plan on putting my words into action - I have finished 7 or 9 exams and plan to make my voice heard loud and clear in the AIA once I can become a full member. It's about time some of us actually step up, stop moaning, and treat this field as the actual profession that it is. We should be making money, and not feeling guilty about it.
This is a great thread. I'm kinda similar boat....
The firm I work for is in financial straights. I really doubt we will be seeing too many bonuses. I've been "flirting" with some other firms who are doing extremely well and in all likelihood if my current firm can't pony up and give us bonuses let alone raises (after our yearly reviews which is just around the corner), I am going to consider other options.
Problem is I am working on a project with an incredibly knowledgeable PM and have some very decent responsibilities for someone of my age/experience category. I hope I'm not rushing too far into this.
In retrospect though, one advantage of leaving is that I would be going for a broader opportunity in a firm that is a far better cultural fit for me.
Very confused at this point.
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