I'm looking for a detail that shows a brick curtain wall 50' tall which corbels both 'out and in' (think of the brick bulging outward from bottom to midpoint of the wall and then corbel back toward the face of the wall from mid-point to top of wall). The corbel brick will support itself but in order to achieve the "bulging" distances (2-3') from the vertical concrete structural wall behind it, we will need a steel substructure to hold the brick in place. Right now I'm just drawing a rectangular steel tube (8"x6" tube steel) substructure that will have brick ties fastened to it to hold the brick in place. This steel substructure will probably be bolted to the structure of the building (somehow.. I'm still trying to figure this out). For now, the steel substructure may be fabricated on or off site. Thanks in advanced.
First the overall length of the wall is approximately 267' long x 50' high. The wall is broken up into "bays" that are 22' wide. I imagine that each bay will be the same in terms of wall profile. I describe the wall "bulges" above but in fact I think "swell" describes it a bit better because the brick pushes and pulls in 3 different directions.
The idea proposed above using a steel substructure seems to be the first pass solution but in reality I think it will be the hardest to lay the brick. If the 22' bays are broken up horizontally in sections of let's say 10' feet, a steel structure could be fabricated and repeated fairly easy and either brought out to site, installed and then the brick is laid or the 10'x22' bay sections could be put together and the bricks laid off site (to some sort of manageable size for a tractor trailer).
Because we are in the middle of schematic design, all of these details do not have to be figured out just yet but I want to at least think about them in the back of my mind to be able to present them later.
So for example, a steel structure is made, how does a mason laying the brick out know where to lay every single brick? Conceivably the substructure cannot dictate where each individual brick should fall (or maybe can it?). So my mind wanders to other ways of trying to pull this off.
One is to create panels that mimics the wall surface as a smooth face using some sort of CNC technique. Possibly MDF laminated and milled according to our drawing profiles. These panels can be 10'x22' and used as a form/mold for the fabrication of a thin fiberglass panel. Multiple (5) fiberglass panels for the entire bay profile will be made (and then repeated for the all of the bays). The panels are then used as "backing" for the brick. So before the brick is installed the facade is a layer of fiberglass. The steel substructure can almost be made generically at this point with the fiberglass panel affixed to it. The brick masons can then use the fiberglass panel as a means to know where to place each brick. I know this is rather a convoluted scenario but then again it's schematic design. Plus I really would like to see us be able to pull this thing off.
I want to say there is something like this at Texas A&M, but I could be wrong. I'm sure that building, where the brick facade is being peeled off, did something with a steal structure. Well, I can't find it - where's Holz?
dont quote me on these because ive never done this before
maybe some steel stand offs connected to horizontal relieving angles set strategically to the horizontal profile of the wall can assist as guide, also good point to locate weeps?
i was looking at the WK-M brackets but the other ones look like they may be useful in this situation
its really hard for me to visualize your job, sorry
I fear brick may not be the appropriate material to use. I can visualize it and looks sweet but its a really round about way to get an effect. Brick cant corbel 2 or 3' by means of corbeling action alone. Really a veneer masonry corbel is about good for 2x original brick depth without adding shelf lintels
But if I wanted to do this I would actualy explore reinforced precast panels with brick face inserts - the steel sub girt thing means you would have masonry deflection standards like for lintels or worse, like L/500 - thats some insane steel just to get the wall to bulge. Concrete lends itself to swelling forms much better than steel.
I hope your client has deep pockets. Good luck though it sounds exciting and Id love to see some renders
aseid, thanks for the link. the stand-offs idea might work but there would have to be quite a few of them! I drew a quick sketch last night that employs something similar. You're definitely on the right track though.
ep, i hear what you are saying about the appropriateness of the material. we're using brick for several reasons. One, it will act as a thermal mass to absorb the hot southern summer sun. The corbelling also provides shade to the windows on that facade. Plus the contextual reasons alone make it a must.
Here's a link to a quick sketch to see what I'm talking about.
what i was suggesting was precast panels with bricks cast into the face so you dont see prcast panel - the bricks would be normal to the plane of the precast.
I assume that section changes profile - like the bulge goes in and out or has some sort of undulation?
The sections does change profile as it moves along the bay. I think the section linked above is through the farthest projecting brick plane.
I'll have to look into the precast idea. First I need to make sure the bricks can be made to fit in a precast panel. They are hand made at a local kiln and this particular company is the only one who makes them. Second, figuring out how to make a form for the precast panel. hmm..
thanks again for your comments, ep. I've got some time to figure this out or at least come up with a few proposals. I guess I should wait to see what the contractor thinks when they take a look at the SD set.. for them it may be a non-issue.
some flickrs of the shop facade - not as dramatic a bulge but fairly intricate bonding pattern - its like a flemish bond but corbels as well as steps out horizontaly link
One option would be to use regularly spaced girts cantilevered off the supporting wall, but this seems tremendously expensive since I imagine you would need quite a few of them.
I'd like actually to see it done with a vertically post tensioned system. The tendons natural tendency would be to pull the wall inward. You would need some sort of backing system between the brick wall and the interior wall, but it wouldn't need be as complicated as the lintel system. I'm not aware of anyone ever doing something like this, but I'm curious to know how it might work.
I'll try to think of other ideas, it is an interesting problem.
synergy. yes quite a few of them indeed, but i like the way you are thinking. can't do pt concrete because of the vibration requirements (i'm not sure exactly why off the top of my head but i'll try and find out).
Ok forget PT for the time being, How about hanging the system from above? if the brick were somehow strung onto steel cables, they could be supported on an attached ledge below. After the that they could hang like a piece of fabric and you would just need some cables and cantilevered members to pull and push it into the forms you wanted. I can visualize the finished product but I'm not sure in what sequence it could be constructed and mortared :).
Corbeled Brick with steel substructure
I'm looking for a detail that shows a brick curtain wall 50' tall which corbels both 'out and in' (think of the brick bulging outward from bottom to midpoint of the wall and then corbel back toward the face of the wall from mid-point to top of wall). The corbel brick will support itself but in order to achieve the "bulging" distances (2-3') from the vertical concrete structural wall behind it, we will need a steel substructure to hold the brick in place. Right now I'm just drawing a rectangular steel tube (8"x6" tube steel) substructure that will have brick ties fastened to it to hold the brick in place. This steel substructure will probably be bolted to the structure of the building (somehow.. I'm still trying to figure this out). For now, the steel substructure may be fabricated on or off site. Thanks in advanced.
I should add a few things to the above post.
First the overall length of the wall is approximately 267' long x 50' high. The wall is broken up into "bays" that are 22' wide. I imagine that each bay will be the same in terms of wall profile. I describe the wall "bulges" above but in fact I think "swell" describes it a bit better because the brick pushes and pulls in 3 different directions.
The idea proposed above using a steel substructure seems to be the first pass solution but in reality I think it will be the hardest to lay the brick. If the 22' bays are broken up horizontally in sections of let's say 10' feet, a steel structure could be fabricated and repeated fairly easy and either brought out to site, installed and then the brick is laid or the 10'x22' bay sections could be put together and the bricks laid off site (to some sort of manageable size for a tractor trailer).
Because we are in the middle of schematic design, all of these details do not have to be figured out just yet but I want to at least think about them in the back of my mind to be able to present them later.
So for example, a steel structure is made, how does a mason laying the brick out know where to lay every single brick? Conceivably the substructure cannot dictate where each individual brick should fall (or maybe can it?). So my mind wanders to other ways of trying to pull this off.
One is to create panels that mimics the wall surface as a smooth face using some sort of CNC technique. Possibly MDF laminated and milled according to our drawing profiles. These panels can be 10'x22' and used as a form/mold for the fabrication of a thin fiberglass panel. Multiple (5) fiberglass panels for the entire bay profile will be made (and then repeated for the all of the bays). The panels are then used as "backing" for the brick. So before the brick is installed the facade is a layer of fiberglass. The steel substructure can almost be made generically at this point with the fiberglass panel affixed to it. The brick masons can then use the fiberglass panel as a means to know where to place each brick. I know this is rather a convoluted scenario but then again it's schematic design. Plus I really would like to see us be able to pull this thing off.
Thoughts and comments are welcome.
Has no one had any experience with using a steel substructure to hold corbel brick in place?
I want to say there is something like this at Texas A&M, but I could be wrong. I'm sure that building, where the brick facade is being peeled off, did something with a steal structure. Well, I can't find it - where's Holz?
dont quote me on these because ive never done this before
maybe some steel stand offs connected to horizontal relieving angles set strategically to the horizontal profile of the wall can assist as guide, also good point to locate weeps?
i was looking at the WK-M brackets but the other ones look like they may be useful in this situation
its really hard for me to visualize your job, sorry
I fear brick may not be the appropriate material to use. I can visualize it and looks sweet but its a really round about way to get an effect. Brick cant corbel 2 or 3' by means of corbeling action alone. Really a veneer masonry corbel is about good for 2x original brick depth without adding shelf lintels
But if I wanted to do this I would actualy explore reinforced precast panels with brick face inserts - the steel sub girt thing means you would have masonry deflection standards like for lintels or worse, like L/500 - thats some insane steel just to get the wall to bulge. Concrete lends itself to swelling forms much better than steel.
I hope your client has deep pockets. Good luck though it sounds exciting and Id love to see some renders
Thanks guys,
SH, if you can think of the building let me know!
aseid, thanks for the link. the stand-offs idea might work but there would have to be quite a few of them! I drew a quick sketch last night that employs something similar. You're definitely on the right track though.
ep, i hear what you are saying about the appropriateness of the material. we're using brick for several reasons. One, it will act as a thermal mass to absorb the hot southern summer sun. The corbelling also provides shade to the windows on that facade. Plus the contextual reasons alone make it a must.
Here's a link to a quick sketch to see what I'm talking about.
what i was suggesting was precast panels with bricks cast into the face so you dont see prcast panel - the bricks would be normal to the plane of the precast.
I assume that section changes profile - like the bulge goes in and out or has some sort of undulation?
The sections does change profile as it moves along the bay. I think the section linked above is through the farthest projecting brick plane.
I'll have to look into the precast idea. First I need to make sure the bricks can be made to fit in a precast panel. They are hand made at a local kiln and this particular company is the only one who makes them. Second, figuring out how to make a form for the precast panel. hmm..
thanks again for your comments, ep. I've got some time to figure this out or at least come up with a few proposals. I guess I should wait to see what the contractor thinks when they take a look at the SD set.. for them it may be a non-issue.
have you looked at shop's nolita condos - link
some flickrs of the shop facade - not as dramatic a bulge but fairly intricate bonding pattern - its like a flemish bond but corbels as well as steps out horizontaly link
We have some images of the nolita project pinned up next to a couple of other similar applications.
One option would be to use regularly spaced girts cantilevered off the supporting wall, but this seems tremendously expensive since I imagine you would need quite a few of them.
I'd like actually to see it done with a vertically post tensioned system. The tendons natural tendency would be to pull the wall inward. You would need some sort of backing system between the brick wall and the interior wall, but it wouldn't need be as complicated as the lintel system. I'm not aware of anyone ever doing something like this, but I'm curious to know how it might work.
I'll try to think of other ideas, it is an interesting problem.
now you got me totally sidetracked
hell, aseid. i graduated cranbrook with yuji. i have one of his 'brick' walls at our house. how funny this is...
synergy. yes quite a few of them indeed, but i like the way you are thinking. can't do pt concrete because of the vibration requirements (i'm not sure exactly why off the top of my head but i'll try and find out).
this looks fun, thats probably why im not doing any work here and have been scouring the net for brick fabrics all morning
im definitely in the wrong business
haha!
im going home now..
Ok forget PT for the time being, How about hanging the system from above? if the brick were somehow strung onto steel cables, they could be supported on an attached ledge below. After the that they could hang like a piece of fabric and you would just need some cables and cantilevered members to pull and push it into the forms you wanted. I can visualize the finished product but I'm not sure in what sequence it could be constructed and mortared :).
then you could shim the bricks as you go for spacing and then come back and grout it with a "icing bag" and a striker
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.