what's a placeholder masterplan in relation to a true masterplan?

when you say "conceptual-CD work" what exactly are you talking about? do you mean complete design services from schematic through cd's?

but, if you're not licensed yet, how can you even do a daycare/chapel?

Basically they don't want to spend a lot of time (money) on the design. They want to throw together a few boxes on the site that are placeholders for future design.

And I meant to say conceptual THROUGH CD's.

Since this project needs years of fundraising, my idea before was that by the time they were ready for CD's, I'd be licensed by then.

if they're years away from building the thing, what use is it to get a fee proposal now for a small daycare?

are they just trying to set a line-item in their budget for design services?

"They want to throw together a few boxes on the site that are placeholders for future design."

sorry, but i just don't understand what the task and point of the exercise is.

here's my suggestion. it sounds like they need a feasibility study that shows a couple of different site solutions that meet whatever code requirements are applicable (parking, landscaping, zoning, grading & drainage, utilities, etc.) and also has some minimal code recommendations for the proposed buildings (allowable areas, construction type, etc.)

that document will assist them in estimating some basic line items in their pro forma to set their budget.

if you have access to aia documents, you can get some basic info on what is typically considered in a feasibility or site study. the architect's handbook of professional practice, as i recall, has good info.

Not to be rude so dont take this the wrong way, but I am assuming they are coming to you for quality work on the cheap side. Have they gotten estimates for design services from "qualified" sources that have years of experience and projects under their belts? That might shed some light on why they think your proposal is too "expensive". They know what it takes to design something, however their window of "design" time may not correspond with yours. Design comes from a clear program statement and an agreement on the intent of the job. You ability to rationalize and provide services based on that agreement is your "design" time, the quicker you can do that, the faster you can come to the next meeting and get direction and proceed into the next phase.

Or you may be totally out of the ball park in terms of price. To give you the benefit lets say youre on target.

Forget about what firms bill for interns, you need to have a number that is comfortable for you, you are the firm, its your number and its either market driven or value driven. You are not an intern, you are a principal and a designer, you will serve a management role and a design/technical role, bill for it! Dont nickel and dime yourself, put it out there, respect yourself.

I would charge hourly for the master plan, have a proposal that is clear on:

summary of job
scope of work
fees
schedule

let them sign the agreement and give you a retainer (get them to make the commitment)

since you are almost an architect you know that conceptual vs. cd's is a big difference.

if they only want drawings for a schematic design set of documents then stipulate clearly that the drawings are schematic level and not for construction, have not been reviewed by a licensed architect/engineer registered in the jurisdiction of the job

for the daycare, lumpsum your schematic/development costs, do an hourly spreadsheet for man-hours on the contact docs/specs and go hourly for ca work, if they want you to review shops and respond to rfi's, bill hourly. Most likely they wont want CA services, from the way the job sounds already from you.\

Any fees for subconsultants you will need estimates and will have to fold those in as lumpsums or tell the client to pay for them as cost plus fixed fee, e.g. HVAC, electrical, plumbing, fire protection, civil (grading, site drainage, parking lot, etc.)

Have they ever done a daycare/chapel before, do they know what the program requirments are? are you providing predesign services prior to schematics for free? and including them as schematic services?

you have to draw some lines in the sand here and stand on a fee.....

look at "delivery" and "services:"

http://www.aia.org/bestpractices

toaster, these are very good narratives, thanks for reminding me why i pay AIA dues!

They're definitely looking for quality on the cheap side with me. As they are part of my community I'm trying to help without giving away the store. I gave an hourly fee with a maximum amount, calculated by how many drawings I'd need, 40hrs per drawing. One of the principals at my previous firm reviewed it with me and I'm pretty confident in the timeline and money. They're really fuzzy on everything programatically, timewise, and moneywise. No they haven't done a daycare or anything before.

I stated that no subconsultant fees are included, and that they would have to be hired by the owner, not me. I can't take on that liability right now.

One of their gripes was my clause, in the schematic proposal, that all copyrights would belong to me. I stated that I will not take it out. They were wary that I'd make further phases too expensive, which is why they want to see a fee proposal for everything. Honestly it really turned me off because I know how people like to have a professional sweat out an idea for free and run off to someone else to produce it.

The feasibility study might be a good solution. I don't think that will help them with fundraising though.

I'll read up on the best practices....

Thanks everyone and please do keep the insights coming...its very helpful to hear.

if you gave them an hourly with a cap proposal, there's no basis for their fear that, once underway, you'd make the phases too expensive.

they've already agreed to the maximum final cost!

el jeffe, that hourly with cap was strictly for the conceptual phase....

my office gets between $300k-$600k for international master planning/concept design for urban developments of 100+acres and resorts that tend to be over 500 acres. the actual fee depends on the size of the site and complexity of the program.

My previous offices charged about $20k/week - so a 4 week mp process would generate $80k a fee. Master planning is more about managing the number of meetings and stakeholders involved then actual design. you're gathering data and adjusting the plan to match what ever gets thrown at you.

if you need to conduct a feasibility study, you're looking at $50k+, environmental phase 1 reviews start about $5k. Just make sure that you aren't liable for either of these items, even if you coordinate them.

Another way to approach fees with them is as a percentage of construction cost. For a small but detail intensive program like a daycare the fee ought to be in the 12-15% range for full services, of which 60% is for architecture and 40% is for consultants.

Of course they will argue that then you have no incentive to economize, but you can diffuse that argument by fixing the fee based on a good estimate after DD.

Hourly with a cap is the worst way to work for an architect: if things go well and your first idea works out, you don't collect the full possible fee, and if (more likely) you go through a lot of schemes to get client/regulatory approval you run up against the fee limit and work for free.

Sounds like too much is unknown on their end. You need to develope a program of all the spaces and their functions to design anything.
Personally, hourly is the only way to work. That way you don't give anything away. your paid exactly what your owed. Don't release the ownership of the design to them unless they are willing to pay for it.
I hate clients like this. They scrutinize every detail, argue, take up loads of your time without ever getting anywhere. For which you get paid nothing. I would walk from this project

Studio, I'm strongly considering it. Its a hairy situation because the client is part of the community I grew up with, they have architects on the board, I'm 29 and some may only look at me as some kid. I've been going into this with all the best intentions - but still getting resistance... I made it clear that there are things that I have to stand my ground on (fees, design ownership), at the same time getting a tinge of a guilt trip because they expect everything for free. There's many reasons to walk away.

I'm still hopeful though that we can come to some agreement, but I think it will take a lot of client education, because fundamentally they really don't know what they're getting into. I'm asking a lot of questions that they probably don't have the answer to, but until we ask it won't get answered. I proposed the feasibility study (thanks treekiller) which may be a great starting point to answering some of their questions.

At the same time I have TWO job interviews in the next week....One of them is my second round, a small firm where I can take a project from start to end.....my head is everywhere right now.

you can't do a % of construction fees at the master planning phase, cause you don't yet know what you're gonna build. Only choices are lump, per diam or actual time/materials. per diem works best when the time frame often changes and is easier to manage.