The last thread I posted had to do with me getting let go from the last job due to lack of structural knowledge.
So, I found a job with a contractor/builder and now I work as a designer for the Millworks part to the company and help with the project management. I update the website, and visit our projects weekly to take photos and post them online for our clients, thus getting to understand more about the construction world!
The builder and an architect, whom I am currently employed by work together on some projects and separately on others, based on whom the client chooses for each portion. I work 40 hours for the builder during the weekdays and work for the architect on the weekends and at night.
The architect that I work with did one year of architecture school, then decided to quit because from what he has explained "knew more then his professors about construction". (He is an old employee of the firm that I got let go from).
I explained to the architect, who has since become more or less my mentor that the builder was not paying me correctly (the builder agreed upon a certain amount when he hired me and then when I got my pay check, I realized that he conveniently decided to cut off 10,000 per year) and that now the builder wanted me to do jobs in house (doing all the drafting work for the remodels). The architect pays me more then the builder, so I asked the architect if it was appropriate to ask the builder for more money during the periods when I am doing drafting work. The architect replied that he did not feel that he could justify the pay he was currently giving me, again due to me structural knowledge. I thanked him for his honesty and explained that I was writing off hours, because I did not want for him (1 man company) to have to deal with the extra costs provided in training me.
I worked 32 hours last week and billed 20 of them. I am getting 20.00 per hour from the architect and work on contract; therefore do not get benefits or anything else. I am lucky if I receive a check once every 3 weeks. We are in a smaller luxury mountain town with lots of construction, but still feel the effects of the economic slump.
I am learning a lot in my current arrangement, but feel like I am getting shafted monetarily. How many hours should I be writing off? It is so hard justifying paying off loans that amount to $60, 000+, when the architect I work for doesn't even value my education.
P.S.- One of my old bosses that let me go in the fall has come to our company to get his cabinets done. I get to design his kitchen and bathrooms for him.Yes, we live in a small town!
um, it's not your job to write off hours. you were hired based on a certain skill set, and they knew there would be some adjustement in hiring you.
your boss should pay you for all hours you work. if he feels that it is too much for the client to pay, he can write it off himself, but that won't be coming out of your pocket, it'll come out of his.
i almost understand working for zaha for free, but working for some arrogant builder-who-also-designs for free is too silly to imagine. (i don't think he is actually an architect is he? he is old enough he got to take exams without going to school or something?)
if this is not a joke then yes you are being shafted, by both the architect who knows too much and therefore has nothing to learn, and the builder who hired you for one job and then expanded the scope.
holz is also correct. lack of structural knowledge i don't know about. depends if you mean actual structures or just construction...both need experience to learn. doesn't mean you should work for free though. even koolhaas needs arup to figure out his structures so i don't think that is such a big deal. the construction part, well...they did hire you knowing your skills...so what's the problem...
anyway, dude, don't work for free. and don't call anyone who lets you work for free your mentor, unless that person is andy warhol genius-type or something...cuz unless he is that good i guarantee you there are places in this world where you will be paid properly for that job, and where you will also learn how to be an architect, not just a draftsman...
Yep - you have to report all your hours. The architect you work for needs to have a realistic idea how long tasks are taking so he can budget his own schedule realistically. Right now you are subsidizing his inability to schedule.
AND: learning on the job is the point of internship. If he wants to hire someone who he can pay an intern wage, then he needs to deal with the inefficiency of that worker. He was an intern once too. And the only way your skillset is going to improve is through doing the internship properly, meaning he has to spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder and directing your work. This is the tradition, and this is the arrangement he has with you.
Your task is to pay attention and really learn everything he tells you. As you learn, you'll be worth everything he's paying you and more.
Don't underreport. Be honest. If he can't pay you, find another position.
someday you will be at the point where you will be twice as productive as expected, and bill for twice as many hours as you have worked, without question. That's the only way the architect is ever going to have the upper hand, by working harder, faster. And don't ever forget about the other opportunities out there whilst producing at that accelerated pace.
Sounds alot like my first job working for an architect/builder except i got paid alot less.
LB and SW are dead on about reporting hours correctly though and I logged every minute i worked for those guys. At 10 an hour I didn't have an option. If i had to take the subway on a delivery or a job site and it got delayed, then they got to pay for me sitting on a train.
If the builder cut you off $10k a year and you have a signed contract with him otherwise, I would let that guy know he either starts paying you the rate he agreed to or there will be serious issues which may end up in court.
it sounds like this guy doesnt think you have that much of a structural deficiency, as much as he is trying to get cheap help
dont take it, and seriously, if he fires you over it, he will be paying someone else much more if he thinks you are that underqualified AND is not paying you anything
as a young architect, you will learn a lot at almost every place you go. dont get screwed by this guy, send out resumes immediately
but i suppose it all depends on what this 10 grand was cut from originally. were you overpaid to begin with? did he hire you for a position and salary that you werent really qualified for?
or did he hire you at an entry level intern wage and then cut 10 grand off?
if its the latter, its borderline illegal and the guy is an ass
dont be a sucker and think this guy is your mentor by any means
(the builder agreed upon a certain amount when he hired me and then when I got my pay check, I realized that he conveniently decided to cut off 10,000 per year)
what the hell? these jobs are jokes; you are getting screwed and are lying like a doormat and taking it. in fact you're even making it EASIER for them to screw you. get the heck out of there and get a new job. if that requires moving, then consider moving.
I understand where you are at with this job. During school I worked in a furniture/fab shop and my boss pulled the same shit. I logged all of my hours correctly the first couple weeks, then he gave me a lecture on how he cant "pay me to learn" only "bill me for time when you are producing"
At first I was taken back, but then I stared to cut my hours. Instead of teaching myself on his projects I used his shop and materials to build my own shit. The time he wasnt paying me to learn, I was taking back by using his space, tools and material. I think it evened itself out for me, but it doesnt sound like you are in the same boat.
You should not be paying them to learn! It is crazy how so many architects, and architecture studends have this mindset beaten into them. We do it to ourselves
do you think those in the trades get bullshit like that.....nope..... they hire in at a "statis" amount and get paid per hour and overtime..... then after the classes they move up in the trades and do more experienced work in the field.....
case in point.... i was working for an electrical contractor as a summer labor and was making more with him than i was when i finished college and was in the few 3 firms.......
if you only get paid for 30 hours...then only do 30 hours..... you are hourly.......
I had that opportunity once....design build architect in Tuscon and I ask Douglas McNeil ( professor at university of arizona what he thought. He told me just run from the guy. He was a terrible student and and all I have ever heard about him is that he loves to take your money. I passed on the gig. I have seen this lure since then and always think of Cowboy Architect McNeil and have managed to run every time. Don't be a slave to anyone exceot yourself....then you will know your work is yours and not passed off at theirs.
I just re-read this and it pissed me off even more. You standing for shit like this make it that tiny bit easier for the rest of the architecture world to continue unfair business practices. I suggest you read up on what happens to law school or business school graduates at their first jobs and it will be an eye-opener. Do you think a recent law-school graduate knows the first thing about the particularities and vagaries of the law in his/her new city and new firm's speciality, or about the new firm's clients and their particular needs, or anything like that? Of course not. Does that law firm bill those clients for that new hire? Absolutely. It's understood and built into the system that there will be a learning curve for new hires and yet that their work and abilities merit employment by the firm and therefore merit invoicing by the firm. Fuck your asshole employers. You have a degree (I'm assuming), you have a brain on your shoulders, you have design ability (I'm assuming), you should get paid for your labors, and your employer is supposed to have a commitment to your growth and learning as an employee under him.
If your employer expected every one of his new hires to be 100% knowledgeable about what he does on the first day of their employment, he would never be able to hire anyone, because that person doesn't exist. I've met idiot employers like this before. Run far away. If he screws you in this manner it's only a matter of time before he begins screwing you in other ways. Are you owed late pay?
Also, never do contract work, unless you build an extra 30% onto your desired net pay, because that's how much your self-employment income (double) tax will work out to be. Trust me. And start saving NOW for next April 15th--you don't want to be caught out with $8,000 owed to the IRS (as recently happened to a friend of mine). That's how bad debt cycles start...
from mantaray: If your employer expected every one of his new hires to be 100% knowledgeable about what he does on the first day of their employment, he would never be able to hire anyone, because that person doesn't exist. I've met idiot employers like this before.
these bozos are the same ones always complaining that architecture school doesn't teach anything useful or "why can't I find an intern who knows anything?" And they say crap like "when I was your age, I was managing a 3-million SF project" with no mention that they were also being closely watched and directed by their boss, and they had been working for 5 years.
IMO, there are way too many of these people running firms.
Ive been in this enough to realize theirs been a complete generational failure to bring up the next generation. To make matters worse its going to be Us vs. Them for the next 20 years. The boomers arent going anywhere.
For those who say undercutting is wrong, or imoral or drives down fees - look around. Undercutting is fucking survival today.
In response to the problem with the builder, It was agrred upon via phone that I would get 44, 000 a year. He then decided to pay me 34,000 a year. When I asked him why, he said that he wouldn't want to start me off high and then have to decrease my pay. I made the mistake of not getting anything in writing. 44,000 may seem high to you guys but I have 2 years of experience designing kitchens and bathrooms and the position required me to learn cabinet vision which outputs to a CNC machine. Since I am the only designer for the company all cabinets and other things that go to the CNC machine are all designed by me.
I get a lot of responsibility and feel that if I went somewhere else that I wouldn't learn as much. This factor alone makes me feel that if I stick it out for a year that I will be a lot better off.
So, if I look for another job, how do I approach the fact that I only stayed with the company for 6 months?
find another job..... then put in your 2 weeks.... i'm sure the boss will cough up a few bucks if your the only designer there.....
stand your ground...........
i'll give you a quick story........ i was working at a place..... me and this other guy was hired for seasoned work...... i made 22an hour and he was at 28an hour..... only reason he was making more was that he had a name of another place on his resume that was in the same field...... anyways, this guy couldnt detail shit and asked me how to do it.... he was slow and had no clue....... i knew what he was making in the beginning but figured i would just ride it out............ well, after the work ended...the place tossed me some side work because they knew that i could perform........
so, since you proved yourself, then maybe it's time to look around and/or have a meeting with the boss and lay it out on the table
uh, 44,000 is not a lot for working for a builder. i don't know what it's like in your neck of the woods, but builder pay is typically a lot higher than architect's -- i know of a couple designers who work for builders and both make around 70k. soooo...
i see absolutely no reason to work for either of this jerks anymore. they're using you and you're taking it. you will learn tons in any job you take at this point in the game. why take one that doesn't treat you right?
and evilp, undercutting is the boss's prerogative-- if HE wants to cut hours to make himself competitive or something to his clients, then he can choose to do that. but you can't hire someone to do a job for you and then not pay them for it. a) that is illegal and b) it is unethical. it is not this person's responsibility to figure out whether the firm needs to undercut or not and to suck it up with his own paycheck (essentially floating the firm's finances on his own back). That's what the PRINCIPAL OF THE FIRM does. That's why HIS NAME is on the door.
also, arch6, you look for a job, and when they ask you why you are leaving your current position you say, because they are not paying me our agreed rate, it is not a good fit for me, and i am looking for x, y, and z. nobody cares about short-term employment when you only have 2 years experience in the first place. trust me. i have been on the hired and the hiring side of this one.
Mantaray i said undercutting is survival - how did you get that to mean undercutting employees?
On this topic though - Im one of the few who think architects are overpaid. The office workers in an architects office are generally draftspeople. Thats really it. They cant design, they cant even draw prints without significant oversight. In my opinion they are unskilled labor. A few will rise above this, but generally theyre a drag on overhead - regardless of their "education".
If you dont like it leave - roll the bones on something else. Or suck it up and save. Its a small town right? Wouldnt want to cross someone. Whatever you do dont cry about it on the net.
How old are u? I bet your doing good for your age. Could you build a cabinet? Or do you just "data entry" cordinates into a computer?
ep, had to use 'generally' in his post of 9:59 above because he was making an overly broad generalization.
all of the folks in my office end up managing projects within the first few months - with oversight, of course, but not daily contact. when nurtured appropriately, they are valuable parts of our team very quickly. and they enjoy it!
from ep's history of comments, i'd guess there is very little 'team' in his approach. it's ep vs. the rest - and he always finds the rest to be wrong, stupid, unskilled, and 'overhead'. this is the way to make sure young people in offices dislike their jobs and develop skills slowly.
evilp, the original post is about undercutting your own hours, and as you never stated anything different in your own post, I assumed you were responding to the original poster's intent.
how is it that only your notion of the "real" world is real?? exactly what is your "real market world"? you sound just like those "bitter" people that Obama was describing. and that is real.
not aware that private foundations, retail center developers, small businesses, churches, and private schools were among those things controlled by the gov't, ep. but if you're talking about the public schools, yeah, we do those, too.
Good - so lets talk. How much of your revenues are based on public schools?
And If I sound angry godam right. If a recent college grad is complaining about making $20 / hour. And if they dont like it move - And Steve what the hell do you know about where I work or have worked - I'd gladly put my team on the field against your team any day.
in '07 i'd guess that schools made up about 10% of total construction dollars. can't tell you revenue off the top of my head, but we only make 5% fees on schools - and that's before the split with the consultants - so i'm not sure why they'd be seen as particularly fluffy with fee. we'll do a $8m school project with 2-3 people.
this year schools might make up more like 40% of construction dollars. the upcoming high school $31m will be 4 people.
i don't know much about your specific situation, ep, but my guess was based on this attitude: In my opinion they are unskilled labor. A few will rise above this, but generally theyre a drag on overhead - regardless of their "education". can't say that i'm hearing much respect for your peers in those statements. in a relationship business, that's poison.
Recent grads are both skilled and unskilled. for example, the recent grad may be very skilled at producing presentation graphics, ie three d models etc, yet may not be skilled in cd's, face it. it takes time to learn the ropes of this profession. and sometimes it may feel like a factory assembly line. and even after one has worked for a decade they may be less skilled in certain areas of the profession. even a license doesn't guarantee experience in every facet of this gig. its a long way to the top if you wanna rock n roll.
Yes 5 of 7 recent grads. And I make sure the ones I have assigned to me at least get code research, assemblies instruction, and a long leash. But every so often one needs to be publicly flogged and / or executed.
ep - i don't think your fellow archinectors are those that fall into the
"draftsperson" category...
sw, 8 million for 2-3 people? I always wonder about the people/job ratio... are there any rules of thumb? I just put together a 13 million dollar project by my lonesome self. It could have used another hand or 2 for sure... Now I have a 72 million dollar project (yikes) and I can handle SD with little help, but I don't know about CD's on that pup... I might have to stand up for myself soon.
Not logging all hours
The last thread I posted had to do with me getting let go from the last job due to lack of structural knowledge.
So, I found a job with a contractor/builder and now I work as a designer for the Millworks part to the company and help with the project management. I update the website, and visit our projects weekly to take photos and post them online for our clients, thus getting to understand more about the construction world!
The builder and an architect, whom I am currently employed by work together on some projects and separately on others, based on whom the client chooses for each portion. I work 40 hours for the builder during the weekdays and work for the architect on the weekends and at night.
The architect that I work with did one year of architecture school, then decided to quit because from what he has explained "knew more then his professors about construction". (He is an old employee of the firm that I got let go from).
I explained to the architect, who has since become more or less my mentor that the builder was not paying me correctly (the builder agreed upon a certain amount when he hired me and then when I got my pay check, I realized that he conveniently decided to cut off 10,000 per year) and that now the builder wanted me to do jobs in house (doing all the drafting work for the remodels). The architect pays me more then the builder, so I asked the architect if it was appropriate to ask the builder for more money during the periods when I am doing drafting work. The architect replied that he did not feel that he could justify the pay he was currently giving me, again due to me structural knowledge. I thanked him for his honesty and explained that I was writing off hours, because I did not want for him (1 man company) to have to deal with the extra costs provided in training me.
I worked 32 hours last week and billed 20 of them. I am getting 20.00 per hour from the architect and work on contract; therefore do not get benefits or anything else. I am lucky if I receive a check once every 3 weeks. We are in a smaller luxury mountain town with lots of construction, but still feel the effects of the economic slump.
I am learning a lot in my current arrangement, but feel like I am getting shafted monetarily. How many hours should I be writing off? It is so hard justifying paying off loans that amount to $60, 000+, when the architect I work for doesn't even value my education.
P.S.- One of my old bosses that let me go in the fall has come to our company to get his cabinets done. I get to design his kitchen and bathrooms for him.Yes, we live in a small town!
um, it's not your job to write off hours. you were hired based on a certain skill set, and they knew there would be some adjustement in hiring you.
your boss should pay you for all hours you work. if he feels that it is too much for the client to pay, he can write it off himself, but that won't be coming out of your pocket, it'll come out of his.
this is a joke right?
i almost understand working for zaha for free, but working for some arrogant builder-who-also-designs for free is too silly to imagine. (i don't think he is actually an architect is he? he is old enough he got to take exams without going to school or something?)
if this is not a joke then yes you are being shafted, by both the architect who knows too much and therefore has nothing to learn, and the builder who hired you for one job and then expanded the scope.
holz is also correct. lack of structural knowledge i don't know about. depends if you mean actual structures or just construction...both need experience to learn. doesn't mean you should work for free though. even koolhaas needs arup to figure out his structures so i don't think that is such a big deal. the construction part, well...they did hire you knowing your skills...so what's the problem...
anyway, dude, don't work for free. and don't call anyone who lets you work for free your mentor, unless that person is andy warhol genius-type or something...cuz unless he is that good i guarantee you there are places in this world where you will be paid properly for that job, and where you will also learn how to be an architect, not just a draftsman...
only by logging all of your hours do you give an employer a realistic understanding of how many hours tasks should take.
if you spend 30 hours but report 20, the next job he takes he'll assume 20 hours is all a 30 hour job takes.
Yep - you have to report all your hours. The architect you work for needs to have a realistic idea how long tasks are taking so he can budget his own schedule realistically. Right now you are subsidizing his inability to schedule.
AND: learning on the job is the point of internship. If he wants to hire someone who he can pay an intern wage, then he needs to deal with the inefficiency of that worker. He was an intern once too. And the only way your skillset is going to improve is through doing the internship properly, meaning he has to spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder and directing your work. This is the tradition, and this is the arrangement he has with you.
Your task is to pay attention and really learn everything he tells you. As you learn, you'll be worth everything he's paying you and more.
Don't underreport. Be honest. If he can't pay you, find another position.
someday you will be at the point where you will be twice as productive as expected, and bill for twice as many hours as you have worked, without question. That's the only way the architect is ever going to have the upper hand, by working harder, faster. And don't ever forget about the other opportunities out there whilst producing at that accelerated pace.
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Sounds alot like my first job working for an architect/builder except i got paid alot less.
LB and SW are dead on about reporting hours correctly though and I logged every minute i worked for those guys. At 10 an hour I didn't have an option. If i had to take the subway on a delivery or a job site and it got delayed, then they got to pay for me sitting on a train.
If the builder cut you off $10k a year and you have a signed contract with him otherwise, I would let that guy know he either starts paying you the rate he agreed to or there will be serious issues which may end up in court.
it sounds like this guy doesnt think you have that much of a structural deficiency, as much as he is trying to get cheap help
dont take it, and seriously, if he fires you over it, he will be paying someone else much more if he thinks you are that underqualified AND is not paying you anything
as a young architect, you will learn a lot at almost every place you go. dont get screwed by this guy, send out resumes immediately
but i suppose it all depends on what this 10 grand was cut from originally. were you overpaid to begin with? did he hire you for a position and salary that you werent really qualified for?
or did he hire you at an entry level intern wage and then cut 10 grand off?
if its the latter, its borderline illegal and the guy is an ass
dont be a sucker and think this guy is your mentor by any means
just reviewed my wipps. the hours do pile up quickly don't they.
lets see....
you mentioned you were getting less money....then you stated that you werent loggin all your hours...hmmmmm
log all your hours
are you contract...meaning you pay your own taxes?.... that 20 really mean about 12 then....
dont work for free............ if you are hourly then log all your hours......
b
Cryzko is right, if your emplyer is not paying social security you will be in for a big suprise around tax time.
meaning you'll be writing a 15% of your salary check to the feds.
do you have the original offer writing?
more like 30% in taxes depending on your bracket/etc....... it'll drain you really fast..... been there and trying to catch up
what the hell? these jobs are jokes; you are getting screwed and are lying like a doormat and taking it. in fact you're even making it EASIER for them to screw you. get the heck out of there and get a new job. if that requires moving, then consider moving.
I understand where you are at with this job. During school I worked in a furniture/fab shop and my boss pulled the same shit. I logged all of my hours correctly the first couple weeks, then he gave me a lecture on how he cant "pay me to learn" only "bill me for time when you are producing"
At first I was taken back, but then I stared to cut my hours. Instead of teaching myself on his projects I used his shop and materials to build my own shit. The time he wasnt paying me to learn, I was taking back by using his space, tools and material. I think it evened itself out for me, but it doesnt sound like you are in the same boat.
You should not be paying them to learn! It is crazy how so many architects, and architecture studends have this mindset beaten into them. We do it to ourselves
do you think those in the trades get bullshit like that.....nope..... they hire in at a "statis" amount and get paid per hour and overtime..... then after the classes they move up in the trades and do more experienced work in the field.....
case in point.... i was working for an electrical contractor as a summer labor and was making more with him than i was when i finished college and was in the few 3 firms.......
if you only get paid for 30 hours...then only do 30 hours..... you are hourly.......
man up
I had that opportunity once....design build architect in Tuscon and I ask Douglas McNeil ( professor at university of arizona what he thought. He told me just run from the guy. He was a terrible student and and all I have ever heard about him is that he loves to take your money. I passed on the gig. I have seen this lure since then and always think of Cowboy Architect McNeil and have managed to run every time. Don't be a slave to anyone exceot yourself....then you will know your work is yours and not passed off at theirs.
I just re-read this and it pissed me off even more. You standing for shit like this make it that tiny bit easier for the rest of the architecture world to continue unfair business practices. I suggest you read up on what happens to law school or business school graduates at their first jobs and it will be an eye-opener. Do you think a recent law-school graduate knows the first thing about the particularities and vagaries of the law in his/her new city and new firm's speciality, or about the new firm's clients and their particular needs, or anything like that? Of course not. Does that law firm bill those clients for that new hire? Absolutely. It's understood and built into the system that there will be a learning curve for new hires and yet that their work and abilities merit employment by the firm and therefore merit invoicing by the firm. Fuck your asshole employers. You have a degree (I'm assuming), you have a brain on your shoulders, you have design ability (I'm assuming), you should get paid for your labors, and your employer is supposed to have a commitment to your growth and learning as an employee under him.
If your employer expected every one of his new hires to be 100% knowledgeable about what he does on the first day of their employment, he would never be able to hire anyone, because that person doesn't exist. I've met idiot employers like this before. Run far away. If he screws you in this manner it's only a matter of time before he begins screwing you in other ways. Are you owed late pay?
Also, never do contract work, unless you build an extra 30% onto your desired net pay, because that's how much your self-employment income (double) tax will work out to be. Trust me. And start saving NOW for next April 15th--you don't want to be caught out with $8,000 owed to the IRS (as recently happened to a friend of mine). That's how bad debt cycles start...
I started a CD for tax purposes as well when i was getting paid under the table.
I got AUDITED by the IRS on my first self-employed contract drafting job. I had to cough up a ton with 2 weeks notice. It blew.
from mantaray: If your employer expected every one of his new hires to be 100% knowledgeable about what he does on the first day of their employment, he would never be able to hire anyone, because that person doesn't exist. I've met idiot employers like this before.
these bozos are the same ones always complaining that architecture school doesn't teach anything useful or "why can't I find an intern who knows anything?" And they say crap like "when I was your age, I was managing a 3-million SF project" with no mention that they were also being closely watched and directed by their boss, and they had been working for 5 years.
IMO, there are way too many of these people running firms.
Ive been in this enough to realize theirs been a complete generational failure to bring up the next generation. To make matters worse its going to be Us vs. Them for the next 20 years. The boomers arent going anywhere.
For those who say undercutting is wrong, or imoral or drives down fees - look around. Undercutting is fucking survival today.
Oh yeah - and in addition to the undercutting you need to provide more and better work. it sucks. Welcome to the new reality.
In response to the problem with the builder, It was agrred upon via phone that I would get 44, 000 a year. He then decided to pay me 34,000 a year. When I asked him why, he said that he wouldn't want to start me off high and then have to decrease my pay. I made the mistake of not getting anything in writing. 44,000 may seem high to you guys but I have 2 years of experience designing kitchens and bathrooms and the position required me to learn cabinet vision which outputs to a CNC machine. Since I am the only designer for the company all cabinets and other things that go to the CNC machine are all designed by me.
I get a lot of responsibility and feel that if I went somewhere else that I wouldn't learn as much. This factor alone makes me feel that if I stick it out for a year that I will be a lot better off.
So, if I look for another job, how do I approach the fact that I only stayed with the company for 6 months?
find another job..... then put in your 2 weeks.... i'm sure the boss will cough up a few bucks if your the only designer there.....
stand your ground...........
i'll give you a quick story........ i was working at a place..... me and this other guy was hired for seasoned work...... i made 22an hour and he was at 28an hour..... only reason he was making more was that he had a name of another place on his resume that was in the same field...... anyways, this guy couldnt detail shit and asked me how to do it.... he was slow and had no clue....... i knew what he was making in the beginning but figured i would just ride it out............ well, after the work ended...the place tossed me some side work because they knew that i could perform........
so, since you proved yourself, then maybe it's time to look around and/or have a meeting with the boss and lay it out on the table
b
uh, 44,000 is not a lot for working for a builder. i don't know what it's like in your neck of the woods, but builder pay is typically a lot higher than architect's -- i know of a couple designers who work for builders and both make around 70k. soooo...
i see absolutely no reason to work for either of this jerks anymore. they're using you and you're taking it. you will learn tons in any job you take at this point in the game. why take one that doesn't treat you right?
and evilp, undercutting is the boss's prerogative-- if HE wants to cut hours to make himself competitive or something to his clients, then he can choose to do that. but you can't hire someone to do a job for you and then not pay them for it. a) that is illegal and b) it is unethical. it is not this person's responsibility to figure out whether the firm needs to undercut or not and to suck it up with his own paycheck (essentially floating the firm's finances on his own back). That's what the PRINCIPAL OF THE FIRM does. That's why HIS NAME is on the door.
also, arch6, you look for a job, and when they ask you why you are leaving your current position you say, because they are not paying me our agreed rate, it is not a good fit for me, and i am looking for x, y, and z. nobody cares about short-term employment when you only have 2 years experience in the first place. trust me. i have been on the hired and the hiring side of this one.
Mantaray i said undercutting is survival - how did you get that to mean undercutting employees?
On this topic though - Im one of the few who think architects are overpaid. The office workers in an architects office are generally draftspeople. Thats really it. They cant design, they cant even draw prints without significant oversight. In my opinion they are unskilled labor. A few will rise above this, but generally theyre a drag on overhead - regardless of their "education".
If you dont like it leave - roll the bones on something else. Or suck it up and save. Its a small town right? Wouldnt want to cross someone. Whatever you do dont cry about it on the net.
How old are u? I bet your doing good for your age. Could you build a cabinet? Or do you just "data entry" cordinates into a computer?
ep, had to use 'generally' in his post of 9:59 above because he was making an overly broad generalization.
all of the folks in my office end up managing projects within the first few months - with oversight, of course, but not daily contact. when nurtured appropriately, they are valuable parts of our team very quickly. and they enjoy it!
from ep's history of comments, i'd guess there is very little 'team' in his approach. it's ep vs. the rest - and he always finds the rest to be wrong, stupid, unskilled, and 'overhead'. this is the way to make sure young people in offices dislike their jobs and develop skills slowly.
evilp, the original post is about undercutting your own hours, and as you never stated anything different in your own post, I assumed you were responding to the original poster's intent.
Steve - It must be nice working on covernment projects and all. When you get into the real "market" world of architecture we can have a discussion.
ep, i think you need to see Dr Phil, or someone.
so much displaced anger.
how is it that only your notion of the "real" world is real?? exactly what is your "real market world"? you sound just like those "bitter" people that Obama was describing. and that is real.
not aware that private foundations, retail center developers, small businesses, churches, and private schools were among those things controlled by the gov't, ep. but if you're talking about the public schools, yeah, we do those, too.
Good - so lets talk. How much of your revenues are based on public schools?
And If I sound angry godam right. If a recent college grad is complaining about making $20 / hour. And if they dont like it move - And Steve what the hell do you know about where I work or have worked - I'd gladly put my team on the field against your team any day.
what does that even mean? Will this be a zoolanderesque arch-off?
in '07 i'd guess that schools made up about 10% of total construction dollars. can't tell you revenue off the top of my head, but we only make 5% fees on schools - and that's before the split with the consultants - so i'm not sure why they'd be seen as particularly fluffy with fee. we'll do a $8m school project with 2-3 people.
this year schools might make up more like 40% of construction dollars. the upcoming high school $31m will be 4 people.
i don't know much about your specific situation, ep, but my guess was based on this attitude: In my opinion they are unskilled labor. A few will rise above this, but generally theyre a drag on overhead - regardless of their "education". can't say that i'm hearing much respect for your peers in those statements. in a relationship business, that's poison.
Recent grads are both skilled and unskilled. for example, the recent grad may be very skilled at producing presentation graphics, ie three d models etc, yet may not be skilled in cd's, face it. it takes time to learn the ropes of this profession. and sometimes it may feel like a factory assembly line. and even after one has worked for a decade they may be less skilled in certain areas of the profession. even a license doesn't guarantee experience in every facet of this gig. its a long way to the top if you wanna rock n roll.
evilp - is anyone in your office working on IDP?
Yes 5 of 7 recent grads. And I make sure the ones I have assigned to me at least get code research, assemblies instruction, and a long leash. But every so often one needs to be publicly flogged and / or executed.
Evil...as far as they are concerned, they're still in school and getting paid for it.
wow you guys must all work in some shitty firms. i am very glad to say that this is the not the experience or the mentality of anyone at my firm.
ep - i don't think your fellow archinectors are those that fall into the
"draftsperson" category...
sw, 8 million for 2-3 people? I always wonder about the people/job ratio... are there any rules of thumb? I just put together a 13 million dollar project by my lonesome self. It could have used another hand or 2 for sure... Now I have a 72 million dollar project (yikes) and I can handle SD with little help, but I don't know about CD's on that pup... I might have to stand up for myself soon.
well?
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