what should I take away from the experience other than the usual.
I do some renderings for them, research zoning code, and do some cad work. I also work on some marketing materials since my undergrad was in mrkg.(MArch 2nd year.) I often question the "design" they do in looking at their plans and wonder what
would happen if they actually paid attention to anything other than
sq footage and tenants. Just ranting a bit but tell me what you think.
I am in a similar boat...I am freelance,..and a developer hired me for a pretty nice size multifamily complex...except he thinks he is an Architect...but he is more os a Dr. Frankenstein of Material Swatches..
..it makes you schizo to get paid to draw ugly shit.
..it makes you schizo to get paid to draw ugly shit.
Exactly. Where I work, they literally buy the land, look up the code in that city, draw a plan and make sure they have enough parking spaces according to the retail sq footage. They've got projects all over the east coast...boring strip malls. I guess as an arch student, I can see what their doing that I don't like and try to improve upon that if I decide to develop projects in the future. It's like working for a company that does everything you hate about design.
I am sure this is all a timeless plight of Architects that us young guys are now learning. I think there are several books about it. I mean I need money worse than I need to raise a fight with some clueless 'wanna be'...
My mentor used to say "Everyone is either an Architect or a Frustrated Architect..." I finally understand what he meant.
work on keeping a sample set of dwgs that you work on......... not full sets since i think that might raise some issues...but a few things here and there...this way you have something to show when u move on...
i worked for a guy that was doing strip window offices for the UAW.... boring as hell............ plus refused to buy 2 computers that would run cad14 right...hahaha...... man.... and he used to smoke in the office.... i hated that.......
learn how he acquires the land and gets the projects financed (i.e. TIF's, public/private funds), and just in general the shortcuts taken to get things built, however shitty they may be. think of it as a free architect as developer seminar.
i got to meet jonathan segal in march and i'll tell you i learned more about getting things built in the 90 minutes with him than i have from any academic.
ryanj,
thanks for the insight.
part of the good that has come out of it is that it seems as if the knowledge that developers have can be learned much easier, or at least faster, than what architects learn over the course of years.
What was Segal's approach to that seminar?
The lesson to take away and learn, learn, learn is the economics and politics of getting things built. Without these, painful as they often are, architects are largely irrelevant.
Some beautiful architecture is actually efficient and makes economic sense! Be one of those guys who can start the design conversation with that skill already on display and done with. THEN, things like beauty and aspiration may find a place in the project. Otherwise, you're the deeziner who is politely mocked by owners and contractors for the "pretty pictures" they draw but can't make into feasible project.
Otherwise, you're the deeziner who is politely mocked by owners and contractors for the "pretty pictures" they draw but can't make into feasible project.
I hear people at the office speak about the architects on the projects in this manner ALL THE TIME. Makes me wonder what bridges the gap.
My favorite is when I was called a "cartoonist" as a synonym for architect.
What bridges the gap is respect. I see posts lamenting the lack of respect our profession gets. How about if we start by garnering respect as individual professionals working with others on a real project? And how to we gain that respect? 1) By helping clients to solve their problems, which may or may not result in a building. 2) By being prepared and knowledgeable, including about processes like economic feasibility and efficiency. 3) By treating OTHERS with respect. This includes waiting until later to roll one's eyes when someone mentions cost savings or asks, "how are going to build that?"
Respect for the profession as a whole will take care of itself if we are each acting respectably.
considering you are a student, you wouldnt be designing anything this large (at least it sounds like some are large projects) right now even if you were at an architecture firm
but it sounds like you are a lot more involved than one normally would be for your experience level, so that is a big bonus
like a lot of people here said, take it for what it is, and learn about the process of how something gets built from the developer side
this will only help you in the future, either working with or for developers.
a trap a lot of students and/ or recent grads fall into is that they get upset and angry when they arent working on a beautiful building right away. if you take this as essentially a learning experience, that might help your outlook on it
its not your name on the building, so i wouldnt get too "architect-y" with your boss or anything about the design. developers get things built, and that is a very knowledgable skill to obtain
marmkid,
that's true. I'm a lot more involved in the design than most students. My boss wants me to be able to "design" projects by myself in the next couple of weeks so it can't be all bad. One thing they know how to do is get land, build something on it, and lease it.
soul : i actually did not attend the seminar. i went to san diego last semester with a group of my mba classmates and we set up a meeting with segal to discuss the financial workings of his projects. it was quite insightful.
his approach to the seminar, as best as i can describe it, is to see architecture for the entrepreneurial endeavor that it is. sure he goes into financially technical things like proformas and contracts, but the bottom line is that acquiring projects with design potential, designing them and repeating this process takes the unique paradoxical ability to sell the value of your design ideas (in hollistic terms; the financial, social, aesthetic benefits, etc) and understand their cost implications, giving mutual respect to both value (design creativity) and cost (really any constraint).
the biggest problem with the mentality of my March classmates is that they view architecture as an either/or trade-off of value and cost. this is especially true with the best 'designers'. it's very hypocritical if you think about it. as designers, we want outsiders to respect our open-minded creativity, yet we only see one side of reality.
until we as architects have an appreciation for both sides of the equation (i.e. the synergistic benefits of value innovation) we are only selling ourselves short, and our influence on the built environment.
in terms of sustainability, this is why i believe passive-design strategies to be the key to achieving socio-ecological value (in terms of green design) at the lowest costs. but enough theory...time to put it into practice!
citizen said it perfectly...
"The lesson to take away and learn, learn, learn is the economics and politics of getting things built. Without these, painful as they often are, architects are largely irrelevant."
it seems that architects have something against making $$$ (they view it as bad) while at the same time working for developers who make a ton of $$$ while at the same time saying how bad developers are
just bite your lip in regard to the crappy design and absorb as much of the business side of things as you can... try to learn how to do a proforma... learn about financing... perhaps if you show an interest in the development side of things your boss will take you under his wing and show you the ropes...
whatever mdler,
...designers whining about no skill wanna be developers is very common on archinect,...let us vent a bit with out being seen as idiosyncratic!
Learn how much you can push design, too. 'Persuading' your client/boss is an exercise in subtle manipulation and confident suggestions. It can be surprising how when you explain 'why' in basic terms - like "that cantilever draws the viewers attention to the entrance as well as providing protection from the elements". You'll get a lot of 'oh, that makes sense' and you've got your cool architecture.
No one cares about theory crap, but they do care about logical reasons. Learn from your boss how he values things, why he does things, etc. Everything has a value, including good design.
As everyone is saying, learn as much as you can about the financing, pro formas, etc. It'll make life down the road much better.
I'll be happy if the only buildings we build are for ourselves or select clients.
arch student working for a developer this summer
what should I take away from the experience other than the usual.
I do some renderings for them, research zoning code, and do some cad work. I also work on some marketing materials since my undergrad was in mrkg.(MArch 2nd year.) I often question the "design" they do in looking at their plans and wonder what
would happen if they actually paid attention to anything other than
sq footage and tenants. Just ranting a bit but tell me what you think.
I am in a similar boat...I am freelance,..and a developer hired me for a pretty nice size multifamily complex...except he thinks he is an Architect...but he is more os a Dr. Frankenstein of Material Swatches..
..it makes you schizo to get paid to draw ugly shit.
..it makes you schizo to get paid to draw ugly shit.
Exactly. Where I work, they literally buy the land, look up the code in that city, draw a plan and make sure they have enough parking spaces according to the retail sq footage. They've got projects all over the east coast...boring strip malls. I guess as an arch student, I can see what their doing that I don't like and try to improve upon that if I decide to develop projects in the future. It's like working for a company that does everything you hate about design.
I am sure this is all a timeless plight of Architects that us young guys are now learning. I think there are several books about it. I mean I need money worse than I need to raise a fight with some clueless 'wanna be'...
My mentor used to say "Everyone is either an Architect or a Frustrated Architect..." I finally understand what he meant.
work on keeping a sample set of dwgs that you work on......... not full sets since i think that might raise some issues...but a few things here and there...this way you have something to show when u move on...
i worked for a guy that was doing strip window offices for the UAW.... boring as hell............ plus refused to buy 2 computers that would run cad14 right...hahaha...... man.... and he used to smoke in the office.... i hated that.......
learn how he acquires the land and gets the projects financed (i.e. TIF's, public/private funds), and just in general the shortcuts taken to get things built, however shitty they may be. think of it as a free architect as developer seminar.
i got to meet jonathan segal in march and i'll tell you i learned more about getting things built in the 90 minutes with him than i have from any academic.
I never thought of it like that...I was so busy hating these people
ryanj,
thanks for the insight.
part of the good that has come out of it is that it seems as if the knowledge that developers have can be learned much easier, or at least faster, than what architects learn over the course of years.
What was Segal's approach to that seminar?
and why is that meta?
The lesson to take away and learn, learn, learn is the economics and politics of getting things built. Without these, painful as they often are, architects are largely irrelevant.
Some beautiful architecture is actually efficient and makes economic sense! Be one of those guys who can start the design conversation with that skill already on display and done with. THEN, things like beauty and aspiration may find a place in the project. Otherwise, you're the deeziner who is politely mocked by owners and contractors for the "pretty pictures" they draw but can't make into feasible project.
Otherwise, you're the deeziner who is politely mocked by owners and contractors for the "pretty pictures" they draw but can't make into feasible project.
I hear people at the office speak about the architects on the projects in this manner ALL THE TIME. Makes me wonder what bridges the gap.
exactly what ryanj said! learn the developer's motivations.
SoulBrother,
My favorite is when I was called a "cartoonist" as a synonym for architect.
What bridges the gap is respect. I see posts lamenting the lack of respect our profession gets. How about if we start by garnering respect as individual professionals working with others on a real project? And how to we gain that respect? 1) By helping clients to solve their problems, which may or may not result in a building. 2) By being prepared and knowledgeable, including about processes like economic feasibility and efficiency. 3) By treating OTHERS with respect. This includes waiting until later to roll one's eyes when someone mentions cost savings or asks, "how are going to build that?"
Respect for the profession as a whole will take care of itself if we are each acting respectably.
considering you are a student, you wouldnt be designing anything this large (at least it sounds like some are large projects) right now even if you were at an architecture firm
but it sounds like you are a lot more involved than one normally would be for your experience level, so that is a big bonus
like a lot of people here said, take it for what it is, and learn about the process of how something gets built from the developer side
this will only help you in the future, either working with or for developers.
a trap a lot of students and/ or recent grads fall into is that they get upset and angry when they arent working on a beautiful building right away. if you take this as essentially a learning experience, that might help your outlook on it
its not your name on the building, so i wouldnt get too "architect-y" with your boss or anything about the design. developers get things built, and that is a very knowledgable skill to obtain
marmkid,
that's true. I'm a lot more involved in the design than most students. My boss wants me to be able to "design" projects by myself in the next couple of weeks so it can't be all bad. One thing they know how to do is get land, build something on it, and lease it.
hey, if he has plans for you to do some design work, that is fantastic. thats a great opportunity for a lot of experience real quickly
not a bad position to be in, especially with the economy the way it is.
good luck!
soul : i actually did not attend the seminar. i went to san diego last semester with a group of my mba classmates and we set up a meeting with segal to discuss the financial workings of his projects. it was quite insightful.
his approach to the seminar, as best as i can describe it, is to see architecture for the entrepreneurial endeavor that it is. sure he goes into financially technical things like proformas and contracts, but the bottom line is that acquiring projects with design potential, designing them and repeating this process takes the unique paradoxical ability to sell the value of your design ideas (in hollistic terms; the financial, social, aesthetic benefits, etc) and understand their cost implications, giving mutual respect to both value (design creativity) and cost (really any constraint).
the biggest problem with the mentality of my March classmates is that they view architecture as an either/or trade-off of value and cost. this is especially true with the best 'designers'. it's very hypocritical if you think about it. as designers, we want outsiders to respect our open-minded creativity, yet we only see one side of reality.
until we as architects have an appreciation for both sides of the equation (i.e. the synergistic benefits of value innovation) we are only selling ourselves short, and our influence on the built environment.
in terms of sustainability, this is why i believe passive-design strategies to be the key to achieving socio-ecological value (in terms of green design) at the lowest costs. but enough theory...time to put it into practice!
citizen said it perfectly...
"The lesson to take away and learn, learn, learn is the economics and politics of getting things built. Without these, painful as they often are, architects are largely irrelevant."
it seems that architects have something against making $$$ (they view it as bad) while at the same time working for developers who make a ton of $$$ while at the same time saying how bad developers are
ahh, yes...the ol' 'starving artists mentality'.
which apparently has a wikipedia page.
hope that isn't a fellow archinector...
ryanj, strawbeary, and citizen are spot on...
just bite your lip in regard to the crappy design and absorb as much of the business side of things as you can... try to learn how to do a proforma... learn about financing... perhaps if you show an interest in the development side of things your boss will take you under his wing and show you the ropes...
whatever mdler,
...designers whining about no skill wanna be developers is very common on archinect,...let us vent a bit with out being seen as idiosyncratic!
Learn how much you can push design, too. 'Persuading' your client/boss is an exercise in subtle manipulation and confident suggestions. It can be surprising how when you explain 'why' in basic terms - like "that cantilever draws the viewers attention to the entrance as well as providing protection from the elements". You'll get a lot of 'oh, that makes sense' and you've got your cool architecture.
No one cares about theory crap, but they do care about logical reasons. Learn from your boss how he values things, why he does things, etc. Everything has a value, including good design.
As everyone is saying, learn as much as you can about the financing, pro formas, etc. It'll make life down the road much better.
I'll be happy if the only buildings we build are for ourselves or select clients.
Learn to connect everything to the bottom line ! If you want to be anything more than a draftsman, you will need to do this anyway.
Get yourself one of these while you're at it...
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