will give myself my own bonus when i become my own client and develop small high quality projects. until then...
what do people think of this idea (and it's not a new one): having two types of registered architects - architects of record, and design architects. this would be similar to the distinction between barristers and solicitors in england. both are lawyers, but they play different roles in the legal system.
this way, you could open a firm with one of each type of architect, or one person could qualify to be both as it is now. the benefit is that those who don't choose to do everything aren't left saddled with stupid titles like intern or graduate architect.
i know, purists will kill me, but remember that there are other distinctions that are made already that allow engineers to practice architecture in some jurisdictions (such as mine) and the title of interior architect in france which allows those designers to work on projects encroaching on architecture.
need we stick with the established system forever?
No really - actualy thats how it used to be - gentleman architects. you dont need a license to concieve buildings. I know plenty of licensed architects that cant. You do need a license to oversee the design of buildings for construction and procurement. So really we should just let anyone concieve buildings. why have a license for it? The license is the there to protect the wealfare and safety of the public only. Not legislate design styles.
I passed 8/9 sections during the last pencil and paper exam in summer 1996. NCARB took its sweet time rolling ARE 1.0. So I should have been licensed at 27. We incorporated DSC at 29.
Do not put off the licensing. Once your ticket is punched you can enjoy the ride.
Having my license gives me the credentials to make field interpretations to the code official as the contractor and be confident. If you need to rely on others for advice, it is only as good as it is paid.
I guess I am a purist. Our clients wold not come to us for our ability to mange our staff nor make a rendering. They come to us to help them realize their goals in well designed built form in a cost efficient manner, with minimal time in plan review.
They come to us, not just for our solid drawing sets but because we can push the envelope w/ code as well as select components for their longevity, efficiency, and frugality.
9 years in arch offices, 3 full time. IDP 95% complete
Passed first two exams I took MM and MEP Systems
And I will not spend one more dollar or ounce of effort ever to attempt to finish to get my license.
I don't need it. I don't want it. And I will still get my designs built and more importantly retain creative control over them. I guess you could call it an alternative career path, but what ever it is I have spent the past four years in construction and have started my own "development" company on the side.
btw. I was approached yesterday by a developer who wanted to come work for me. his projects had stalled due to financing.
In a down turn we can always make money ( small quick project for cash flow). A developer needs us. zoning, site studies , cost estimates, sexy renderings, architecture program....
As my mama always sais " there is a time to make money in real estate and a time to play golf. you need to know when to switch to the other."
The relevance here is that Architect's practice has changed little in the past 100 years and many get the same results. That's not what I want. I do not choose that path. It took me a while to realize, that going after my license, was effort exhausted in the complete opposite direction of where I want to be.
Besides, I'm considered an Architect in Mexico!
dsc_arch I do agree that you have to know when to play golf, but it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that you have to play golf. You should make golf a part of your plan.
Of course, being in Wisconsin, golf is tough to come by most of the year. Come on Global Warming!!!
For those not getting licensed....not only have you chosen a thankless, low-paying, open-ended career, but you have no legal credibility while doing so.
Think of yourself as a design consultant, but don't call yourself an Architect until you've been thru what we've been thru (bullshit tests).
Ah, see, wurdan, that makes a huge difference, that you're an architect in Mexico. Just like mleitner, who is registered (will be) in Germany. You've "crossed the finish line" somewhere, and that's what, IMO, is important, both professionally and emotionally.
Just don't go getting yourself fined by the local licensing board! Be careful in your terminology.
sometimes i think all the complaints and problems with NCARB are 'user errors' as i approach the end of my IDP stint i haven't had any problems with NCARB...
i mean really... if you can't fill out a form and do some simple math that is probably the first sign that maybe you shouldn't be an architect...
If you've had no problems with NCARB just consider yourself lucky.
Sure, some problems are probably "user error".
But most of us are able and willing to correctly fill in forms, do math, etc.
Some NCARB employees on the other hand do not have those capabilities.
When NCARB failed to log in my transcripts, and put my file on hold indefinitely because of it, it was because they failed to log in my transcripts - not because I didn't fill out the form and not because my schools didn't send them.
When one of my tests wouldn't load on the computer - and I waited 2.5 hours at the test center while the center employees talked to NCARB on the phone - and then it took over three weeks to fix my eligibility status in NCARB's computers so that I could schedule another appointment for that test - that had nothing to do with me.
When I applied for certification and they sent the license confirmation form to the wrong state THREE TIMES - that wasn't because I told them the wrong state - in fact I had multiple conversations and emails in which I made sure they had the correct state in their system. When I suggested that they were sending the form to the wrong state they said "we don't send things to the wrong state." It was only after I got a phone call from the wrong state, asking why they kept getting that form, that NCARB managed to do this right.
When their computer system failed to process my annual dues payment - and then they tried to charge me duplicate dues plus fines and reactivation fees, all amounting to over $600 - that wasn't because I didn't follow instructions or didn't pay them.
When it took them over 8 months to fix the previous problem - and then they didn't reactivate me for another 4 months because I hadn't filled out a form telling them what I'd been doing during the 8 months of waiting, because they didn't send me the form or tell me they needed it - that wasn't my doing either.
So if things are going flawlessly between you and NCARB thank your lucky stars - but don't blame those of us who've had more than our share of problems.
Ball State is in Muncie, Indiana - and yes they do have an architecture program. That sounds right in line with my experiences with NCARB...
I think some imagine that once they get through IDP and the ARE they'll be done with NCARB forever.
But unless you're 100% sure you'll never need a license in another state you're basically looking at paying annual dues forever (if you stop and then need them to transmit your record later they'll charge you all the back dues plus a fine and a reactivation fee - can add up to thousands - and that's not even counting the transmittal fee...)
If you apply for NCARB certification after getting your first license then that's another round of paperwork - mostly duplicating what you filled out for IDP - and another 6 to 8 month wait for processing.
And it's $300 and more waiting and glitches whenever you need to transmit your record.
Of course I think that not getting licensed just to avoid NCARB is probably overkill...
So my question is this - isnt licensure for architecture a states right to govern their own proffesional regulation? What is NCARB needed for anyways? To oversee all 50 states' unique ability to govern themselves?
If reciprosity is the only reason Im calling rat - any profesional can go to any state's website and view the reciprocity requirements. And really - if your practicing in another state you might want to have an architect of record locally anyways.
why are we putting up with their existence? Doesnt anyone see their true mission is to inflate educational requirements and make more money for the University system.
its a system that is hit or miss in terms of service to people, but its completely valid to require people to work for a period of time before being eligible to recieve a license from an organization.
i dont think there are any secret missions being run by NCARB, and i certainly dont see how it helps the universitys
as architects, we tend to make things into a much bigger deal than they actually are, and this seems to be one of those things people make way too big a deal over
No marmkind - not on this one. The purpose of NCARB is to oversee the individual boards - and create a national, central authority. Architecture is not a centralized single body of knoweledge and it's practice varies by region which require their own unique methods of construction and practice and those regions should be autonomous in their regulation of the proffesion as its practiced in their juristiction.
so then the AIA should not be a national organization either, it should be a regional thing, or even just a state by state seperate entity
you dont learn everything there is to know about architecture during your IDP hours, and i dont think they claim that you do. it is just a general skill set that a committee has decided is good for young architects to know.
how do you define these regions then? by state? some states have very different building methods in different parts of it
the regional thing is when you sit for the exams. it is then specific to where you are. IDP isnt specific to any region at all, and really, it is just a list of hours that you get if you work for a couple of years. what in their requirements is so unessential and worthless for an intern to learn?
evilplatypus: the main reason they exist is because the states don't trust each other. Seriously. In 2001 Texas studied pulling out of NCARB, developing their own exam and keeping their own records - and when they surveyed all the other states only two of them said they'd probably accept the Texas-administered tests and records for reciprocity in their state.
Similarly California, Arizona, and Colorado were all in the fairly recent past more independent from NCARB than they are now, but their constituents all encountered problems when wanting to practice elsewhere, and all are now NCARB members and utilizing NCARB tests and record-keeping.
It's still up to state boards to adopt or reject NCARB policies. That's why you've still got 20 states that don't require an NAAB degree, states with various different time limits for taking the exams, +/- 10 states allowing early testing while the others still require completion of IDP first, states that require 3 full years of experience after graduation even though NCARB counts student jobs, etc.
if you ever want to have architects have the ability to move, or change the area they work in, then you need an organization that extends beyond your state lines and works together
otherwise you think waiting on IDP hours to process is bad when you are just out of school? try putting up with that when you are a registered established architect who just wants to move to a different state. what if when you moved, you found out that the state you go to doesnt acknowledge anything you did in your old state, and then you have to go through everything all over again.
to get licensed in another state, dont you need to take their exams?
what is all this wasted money you are talking about?
you pay some dues to begin your IDP process, then, what, you pay to take your exams.
find a job when you get out of school where they will reimburse you for your IDP fees.
fill out forms
send them in
if you dont want to be a part of it, you dont have to
its not evil, its not a pervert, its not trying to scam anyone
Marmkind - its all about the aditional overlay of control. If anything NCARB has made licensure easier but also is exerting more control on the states at the same time. They also are changing the rules state by state to conform to a national educational standard. I have filled out the forms and sent them in and passed the xams. But I dont like where this is going. More layers of administration never work out for the bettter
no, all states use the same ARE (currently 9 tests, switching to 7 starting in July).
California has an additional, oral exam, required of everyone who seeks licensing there. Several other states also have additional exams, but in all but CA and WA they're open-book multiple choice take-home tests, or they're papers that you have to write, on state statutes and codes. The WA oral exam is waived if you've done IDP.
There's a myth that individual states have tests on region-specific issues, like floods, tornados, hurricanes and earthquakes. But in actuality all the supplementary exams - even California's - are largely based on local statutes.
As for NCARB fees: you must continue to pay annual dues to NCARB once you get licensed. If you don't then they won't transmit your record if you want to seek reciprocity elsewhere. And as someone mentioned, if you let your dues lapse and try to reactivate later they'll charge you all the dues you skipped AND a fine and a reactivation fee.
If you get NCARB certified (required for reciprocity by more than half the states) then the dues are higher - currently $190 per year.
There's also a $300 fee each time you ask for your record to be transmitted.
And of course you're also paying annual dues to all the states where you're registered, and application fees to states where you apply for reciprocity. So it all adds up!
evil: in "the old days" - at least back a half century - the test was also the same all over the country. It was only offered once per year most places (though twice per year in some eras in some areas).
At least these days you can schedule it whenever you want to take it.
NCARB does not offer reciprocity. NCARB offers the NCARB Certificate, which some states require for reciprocity. But there are no states in which you're automatically licensed there based on being licensed in another state or on having NCARB certification. Each state has its own license application process that you have to go through.
my mistake about the ARE's, i had the wrong info about them
are those supplementary exams required for licensure in those states? i had always heard that, but dont live anywhere where you have to worry about it
many firms will reimburse any fees you have to pay, and if i am not mistaken, if you work for yourself, i imagine you can write it off and at least get some of it back
my point is that NCARB isnt evil, and isnt out to scam all the architects in the country.
if they are trying to make it into a national standard, that would eventually lead to a situation where you get your license, and it will be good anywhere.
they are attempting to make the situation better, which is why they are working on all those changes they are talking about
if you have such an issue with it as you claim to, i suggest you join your local AIA board and have a voice about the situation, rather than ranting on the internet, calling things fucking perverts who dont have a right to exist. you just sound silly that way and there isnt much reason to take you seriously if that is how you end all of your posts
yes, the supplementary exams are required for licensure in the states that have them.
Only the California supplementary exam is really a big deal (it has only about a 40% first-time pass rate, takes 6 months to schedule, is expensive, etc.) In the other states the supplementary exams are usually just open book tests about codes and statutes, or in a few states you have to write a 10 or 20 page "summary" of the local codes and statutes - so they're not really considered much of a big deal in comparison with the ARE - just part of the license application paperwork basically.
Some fees are tax-deductible if you're self-employed or if your firm doesn't reimburse them. Others (such as the exam fees) aren't tax deductible (see IRS publication 17...)
thats what i must have had in my head then, the supplementary exams that can be different depending where you are
exam fees arent? ooh, i better stay where i am till i take them, since i can at least get reimbursed if i pass
yeah it seems like everything is just a lot of paperwork to go through. i guess that doesnt bother me as much as others, i just see it as part of the process. if i didnt have IDP hours to fill, i might not have done some of the things at work that i have. its nice to have that card to play, saying, i need to fill so and so hours in a category, so you get to do something new you wouldnt have otherwise done.
The ARE is the same in every state, and the exam fees are the same in every state.
The only thing that differs is that California supplementary exam, and the more minor take-home exams in a few other states.
Going through the paperwork was never that big of a deal for me. Where I got fairly impatient was with the processing times. Basically it takes 2-4 months every time you send them IDP forms, and then it takes another 2-4 months at the end for "final processing", and after that it takes about 5-6 weeks (30 business days) to transmit your record to your state, and then another couple weeks to get authorization to test.
Test results average 2-4 weeks for multiple choice exam results and 4-8 weeks (though occasionally up to 12) for graphic exam results. Then it takes some states 2 or 3 months to license you.
Then if you apply for NCARB certification that averages 6 to 8 months.
If you think problems occur because of user errors you have another thing coming. Everytime I call NCARB, which is often, I get many apologies. Unfortunately, apologies don't make up for many lost years and plenty of frustrations.
But now that I am cleared to take the exams, which I wanted desperately for so long, I wonder why I ever wanted to get licensed. The ONLY reason would be personal satisfaction. ONLY reason.
I've been working on my IDP, but seriously the more I work at an architectural office, the more I realize that the "traditional" path is NOT for me.
I'd be more interested working as a design consultant for a developer or Real Estate investing... but I'd still want to design houses on the side, just as a "hobby", or as a developer/investor.
Does anybody know exactly what someone WITHOUT an arch. license can design?
I've heard unlicensed professionals can design residences up to 20,000 SF in Texas...
- Does "residential" mean multi-unit houses as well?
- Is it really 20,000 SF or 10,000 SF? (I've heard both...)
You won't be able to change jobs (especially into real estate development!) in this economy so why not just tough it out through IDP and the ARE? You'll ultimately have more flexibility both to have credibility as a design consultant and to do freelance work if you have the license. Better to go for it now and never end up using it than to not go for it and regret it later.
Does anybody know exactly what someone WITHOUT an arch. license can design?
I've heard unlicensed professionals can design residences up to 20,000 SF in Texas...
- Does "residential" mean multi-unit houses as well?
- Is it really 20,000 SF or 10,000 SF? (I've heard both ways...)
varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction of course...but in my province, the AIBC, (which is equivalent to a state accreditation body in the US) has some great documents in their library of documents:
in particular, scroll down to Bulletin 31 - when is an architect is required on a project? and Bulletin 32 - what titles are restricted to use by registered architects...
as crystal clear as you're going to get from any provincial or state body...
To Those Not Getting Licensed
doesn't everybody?
will give myself my own bonus when i become my own client and develop small high quality projects. until then...
what do people think of this idea (and it's not a new one): having two types of registered architects - architects of record, and design architects. this would be similar to the distinction between barristers and solicitors in england. both are lawyers, but they play different roles in the legal system.
this way, you could open a firm with one of each type of architect, or one person could qualify to be both as it is now. the benefit is that those who don't choose to do everything aren't left saddled with stupid titles like intern or graduate architect.
i know, purists will kill me, but remember that there are other distinctions that are made already that allow engineers to practice architecture in some jurisdictions (such as mine) and the title of interior architect in france which allows those designers to work on projects encroaching on architecture.
need we stick with the established system forever?
Wow far out man. Shock the System.
No really - actualy thats how it used to be - gentleman architects. you dont need a license to concieve buildings. I know plenty of licensed architects that cant. You do need a license to oversee the design of buildings for construction and procurement. So really we should just let anyone concieve buildings. why have a license for it? The license is the there to protect the wealfare and safety of the public only. Not legislate design styles.
I passed 8/9 sections during the last pencil and paper exam in summer 1996. NCARB took its sweet time rolling ARE 1.0. So I should have been licensed at 27. We incorporated DSC at 29.
Do not put off the licensing. Once your ticket is punched you can enjoy the ride.
Having my license gives me the credentials to make field interpretations to the code official as the contractor and be confident. If you need to rely on others for advice, it is only as good as it is paid.
I guess I am a purist. Our clients wold not come to us for our ability to mange our staff nor make a rendering. They come to us to help them realize their goals in well designed built form in a cost efficient manner, with minimal time in plan review.
They come to us, not just for our solid drawing sets but because we can push the envelope w/ code as well as select components for their longevity, efficiency, and frugality.
I love being an architect!
Evilplatypus, don't be too down, I have heard from many people the Investment Bankers work, INSANE HOURS, thought the glamorous pay.
BS architectural studies
MArch
9 years in arch offices, 3 full time. IDP 95% complete
Passed first two exams I took MM and MEP Systems
And I will not spend one more dollar or ounce of effort ever to attempt to finish to get my license.
I don't need it. I don't want it. And I will still get my designs built and more importantly retain creative control over them. I guess you could call it an alternative career path, but what ever it is I have spent the past four years in construction and have started my own "development" company on the side.
wurdan, you need to do what you decide you need to do.
But IMO, which is meaningless to your life, being that close and not finishing is just silly!
Creative control is good. Go big or go home.
btw. I was approached yesterday by a developer who wanted to come work for me. his projects had stalled due to financing.
In a down turn we can always make money ( small quick project for cash flow). A developer needs us. zoning, site studies , cost estimates, sexy renderings, architecture program....
As my mama always sais " there is a time to make money in real estate and a time to play golf. you need to know when to switch to the other."
fore!
LB I appreciate your input.
How to make money
The relevance here is that Architect's practice has changed little in the past 100 years and many get the same results. That's not what I want. I do not choose that path. It took me a while to realize, that going after my license, was effort exhausted in the complete opposite direction of where I want to be.
Besides, I'm considered an Architect in Mexico!
dsc_arch I do agree that you have to know when to play golf, but it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that you have to play golf. You should make golf a part of your plan.
Of course, being in Wisconsin, golf is tough to come by most of the year. Come on Global Warming!!!
For those not getting licensed....not only have you chosen a thankless, low-paying, open-ended career, but you have no legal credibility while doing so.
Think of yourself as a design consultant, but don't call yourself an Architect until you've been thru what we've been thru (bullshit tests).
Ah, see, wurdan, that makes a huge difference, that you're an architect in Mexico. Just like mleitner, who is registered (will be) in Germany. You've "crossed the finish line" somewhere, and that's what, IMO, is important, both professionally and emotionally.
Just don't go getting yourself fined by the local licensing board! Be careful in your terminology.
Only when you become licensed can you tradematk your name - right poczatek?
Yes, and I would trademark Evilplatypus before someone else does.
Im going to Kill off evilplatypus soon
Kill him with a T-square!
sometimes i think all the complaints and problems with NCARB are 'user errors' as i approach the end of my IDP stint i haven't had any problems with NCARB...
i mean really... if you can't fill out a form and do some simple math that is probably the first sign that maybe you shouldn't be an architect...
If you've had no problems with NCARB just consider yourself lucky.
Sure, some problems are probably "user error".
But most of us are able and willing to correctly fill in forms, do math, etc.
Some NCARB employees on the other hand do not have those capabilities.
When NCARB failed to log in my transcripts, and put my file on hold indefinitely because of it, it was because they failed to log in my transcripts - not because I didn't fill out the form and not because my schools didn't send them.
When one of my tests wouldn't load on the computer - and I waited 2.5 hours at the test center while the center employees talked to NCARB on the phone - and then it took over three weeks to fix my eligibility status in NCARB's computers so that I could schedule another appointment for that test - that had nothing to do with me.
When I applied for certification and they sent the license confirmation form to the wrong state THREE TIMES - that wasn't because I told them the wrong state - in fact I had multiple conversations and emails in which I made sure they had the correct state in their system. When I suggested that they were sending the form to the wrong state they said "we don't send things to the wrong state." It was only after I got a phone call from the wrong state, asking why they kept getting that form, that NCARB managed to do this right.
When their computer system failed to process my annual dues payment - and then they tried to charge me duplicate dues plus fines and reactivation fees, all amounting to over $600 - that wasn't because I didn't follow instructions or didn't pay them.
When it took them over 8 months to fix the previous problem - and then they didn't reactivate me for another 4 months because I hadn't filled out a form telling them what I'd been doing during the 8 months of waiting, because they didn't send me the form or tell me they needed it - that wasn't my doing either.
So if things are going flawlessly between you and NCARB thank your lucky stars - but don't blame those of us who've had more than our share of problems.
NCARB seems to think I have two degrees from Ball State. I'm not sure where Ball State is, or if they even have an architecture program.
Ball State is in Muncie, Indiana - and yes they do have an architecture program. That sounds right in line with my experiences with NCARB...
I think some imagine that once they get through IDP and the ARE they'll be done with NCARB forever.
But unless you're 100% sure you'll never need a license in another state you're basically looking at paying annual dues forever (if you stop and then need them to transmit your record later they'll charge you all the back dues plus a fine and a reactivation fee - can add up to thousands - and that's not even counting the transmittal fee...)
If you apply for NCARB certification after getting your first license then that's another round of paperwork - mostly duplicating what you filled out for IDP - and another 6 to 8 month wait for processing.
And it's $300 and more waiting and glitches whenever you need to transmit your record.
Of course I think that not getting licensed just to avoid NCARB is probably overkill...
ick
i am just waiting to see what happens in the next week or so when i submit the past 2 years worth of idp hours
doesnt sound like i am in for a fun time
maybe i will be one of the lucky ones
So my question is this - isnt licensure for architecture a states right to govern their own proffesional regulation? What is NCARB needed for anyways? To oversee all 50 states' unique ability to govern themselves?
If reciprosity is the only reason Im calling rat - any profesional can go to any state's website and view the reciprocity requirements. And really - if your practicing in another state you might want to have an architect of record locally anyways.
why are we putting up with their existence? Doesnt anyone see their true mission is to inflate educational requirements and make more money for the University system.
Fucking Perverts.
BTW - my IDP process was pretty flawless - but they still have no right to exist.
no right to exist seems a bit overboard
its a system that is hit or miss in terms of service to people, but its completely valid to require people to work for a period of time before being eligible to recieve a license from an organization.
i dont think there are any secret missions being run by NCARB, and i certainly dont see how it helps the universitys
as architects, we tend to make things into a much bigger deal than they actually are, and this seems to be one of those things people make way too big a deal over
No marmkind - not on this one. The purpose of NCARB is to oversee the individual boards - and create a national, central authority. Architecture is not a centralized single body of knoweledge and it's practice varies by region which require their own unique methods of construction and practice and those regions should be autonomous in their regulation of the proffesion as its practiced in their juristiction.
so then the AIA should not be a national organization either, it should be a regional thing, or even just a state by state seperate entity
you dont learn everything there is to know about architecture during your IDP hours, and i dont think they claim that you do. it is just a general skill set that a committee has decided is good for young architects to know.
how do you define these regions then? by state? some states have very different building methods in different parts of it
the regional thing is when you sit for the exams. it is then specific to where you are. IDP isnt specific to any region at all, and really, it is just a list of hours that you get if you work for a couple of years. what in their requirements is so unessential and worthless for an intern to learn?
evilplatypus: the main reason they exist is because the states don't trust each other. Seriously. In 2001 Texas studied pulling out of NCARB, developing their own exam and keeping their own records - and when they surveyed all the other states only two of them said they'd probably accept the Texas-administered tests and records for reciprocity in their state.
Similarly California, Arizona, and Colorado were all in the fairly recent past more independent from NCARB than they are now, but their constituents all encountered problems when wanting to practice elsewhere, and all are now NCARB members and utilizing NCARB tests and record-keeping.
It's still up to state boards to adopt or reject NCARB policies. That's why you've still got 20 states that don't require an NAAB degree, states with various different time limits for taking the exams, +/- 10 states allowing early testing while the others still require completion of IDP first, states that require 3 full years of experience after graduation even though NCARB counts student jobs, etc.
if you ever want to have architects have the ability to move, or change the area they work in, then you need an organization that extends beyond your state lines and works together
otherwise you think waiting on IDP hours to process is bad when you are just out of school? try putting up with that when you are a registered established architect who just wants to move to a different state. what if when you moved, you found out that the state you go to doesnt acknowledge anything you did in your old state, and then you have to go through everything all over again.
Or retake the state your moving tos exam over a weekend like in the old days. Seems to me that would save time and money.
And the AIA is not a governing body - its a profesional organization.
to get licensed in another state, dont you need to take their exams?
what is all this wasted money you are talking about?
you pay some dues to begin your IDP process, then, what, you pay to take your exams.
find a job when you get out of school where they will reimburse you for your IDP fees.
fill out forms
send them in
if you dont want to be a part of it, you dont have to
its not evil, its not a pervert, its not trying to scam anyone
No - NCARB offers reciprocity
Marmkind - its all about the aditional overlay of control. If anything NCARB has made licensure easier but also is exerting more control on the states at the same time. They also are changing the rules state by state to conform to a national educational standard. I have filled out the forms and sent them in and passed the xams. But I dont like where this is going. More layers of administration never work out for the bettter
marmkid:
no, all states use the same ARE (currently 9 tests, switching to 7 starting in July).
California has an additional, oral exam, required of everyone who seeks licensing there. Several other states also have additional exams, but in all but CA and WA they're open-book multiple choice take-home tests, or they're papers that you have to write, on state statutes and codes. The WA oral exam is waived if you've done IDP.
There's a myth that individual states have tests on region-specific issues, like floods, tornados, hurricanes and earthquakes. But in actuality all the supplementary exams - even California's - are largely based on local statutes.
As for NCARB fees: you must continue to pay annual dues to NCARB once you get licensed. If you don't then they won't transmit your record if you want to seek reciprocity elsewhere. And as someone mentioned, if you let your dues lapse and try to reactivate later they'll charge you all the dues you skipped AND a fine and a reactivation fee.
If you get NCARB certified (required for reciprocity by more than half the states) then the dues are higher - currently $190 per year.
There's also a $300 fee each time you ask for your record to be transmitted.
And of course you're also paying annual dues to all the states where you're registered, and application fees to states where you apply for reciprocity. So it all adds up!
evil: in "the old days" - at least back a half century - the test was also the same all over the country. It was only offered once per year most places (though twice per year in some eras in some areas).
At least these days you can schedule it whenever you want to take it.
NCARB does not offer reciprocity. NCARB offers the NCARB Certificate, which some states require for reciprocity. But there are no states in which you're automatically licensed there based on being licensed in another state or on having NCARB certification. Each state has its own license application process that you have to go through.
my mistake about the ARE's, i had the wrong info about them
are those supplementary exams required for licensure in those states? i had always heard that, but dont live anywhere where you have to worry about it
many firms will reimburse any fees you have to pay, and if i am not mistaken, if you work for yourself, i imagine you can write it off and at least get some of it back
my point is that NCARB isnt evil, and isnt out to scam all the architects in the country.
if they are trying to make it into a national standard, that would eventually lead to a situation where you get your license, and it will be good anywhere.
they are attempting to make the situation better, which is why they are working on all those changes they are talking about
if you have such an issue with it as you claim to, i suggest you join your local AIA board and have a voice about the situation, rather than ranting on the internet, calling things fucking perverts who dont have a right to exist. you just sound silly that way and there isnt much reason to take you seriously if that is how you end all of your posts
Fuck u to
i apologize for not agreeing with you
i will remember that for future threads
yes, the supplementary exams are required for licensure in the states that have them.
Only the California supplementary exam is really a big deal (it has only about a 40% first-time pass rate, takes 6 months to schedule, is expensive, etc.) In the other states the supplementary exams are usually just open book tests about codes and statutes, or in a few states you have to write a 10 or 20 page "summary" of the local codes and statutes - so they're not really considered much of a big deal in comparison with the ARE - just part of the license application paperwork basically.
Some fees are tax-deductible if you're self-employed or if your firm doesn't reimburse them. Others (such as the exam fees) aren't tax deductible (see IRS publication 17...)
thats what i must have had in my head then, the supplementary exams that can be different depending where you are
exam fees arent? ooh, i better stay where i am till i take them, since i can at least get reimbursed if i pass
yeah it seems like everything is just a lot of paperwork to go through. i guess that doesnt bother me as much as others, i just see it as part of the process. if i didnt have IDP hours to fill, i might not have done some of the things at work that i have. its nice to have that card to play, saying, i need to fill so and so hours in a category, so you get to do something new you wouldnt have otherwise done.
The ARE is the same in every state, and the exam fees are the same in every state.
The only thing that differs is that California supplementary exam, and the more minor take-home exams in a few other states.
Going through the paperwork was never that big of a deal for me. Where I got fairly impatient was with the processing times. Basically it takes 2-4 months every time you send them IDP forms, and then it takes another 2-4 months at the end for "final processing", and after that it takes about 5-6 weeks (30 business days) to transmit your record to your state, and then another couple weeks to get authorization to test.
Test results average 2-4 weeks for multiple choice exam results and 4-8 weeks (though occasionally up to 12) for graphic exam results. Then it takes some states 2 or 3 months to license you.
Then if you apply for NCARB certification that averages 6 to 8 months.
It's a lot of waiting.
yeah i can see that becoming a pain once i get all the hours done and get closer to taking the exams
i guess all the more reason to get the ball rolling now
If you think problems occur because of user errors you have another thing coming. Everytime I call NCARB, which is often, I get many apologies. Unfortunately, apologies don't make up for many lost years and plenty of frustrations.
But now that I am cleared to take the exams, which I wanted desperately for so long, I wonder why I ever wanted to get licensed. The ONLY reason would be personal satisfaction. ONLY reason.
how many years did it set you back strawbeary?
i can see years really getting frustrating if things got that set back for me
It took 8 months just to establish my record, although it took them a mere 2 weeks to cash the check.
It took a year almost to the day from turning in my last IDP report to getting the OK to test.
That's just a sampling.
wow, fun stuff
good luck with the exams if you decide to go forward with them
I've been working on my IDP, but seriously the more I work at an architectural office, the more I realize that the "traditional" path is NOT for me.
I'd be more interested working as a design consultant for a developer or Real Estate investing... but I'd still want to design houses on the side, just as a "hobby", or as a developer/investor.
Does anybody know exactly what someone WITHOUT an arch. license can design?
I've heard unlicensed professionals can design residences up to 20,000 SF in Texas...
- Does "residential" mean multi-unit houses as well?
- Is it really 20,000 SF or 10,000 SF? (I've heard both...)
Thanks!
You won't be able to change jobs (especially into real estate development!) in this economy so why not just tough it out through IDP and the ARE? You'll ultimately have more flexibility both to have credibility as a design consultant and to do freelance work if you have the license. Better to go for it now and never end up using it than to not go for it and regret it later.
This doesn't really answer my question, though.
Does anybody know exactly what someone WITHOUT an arch. license can design?
I've heard unlicensed professionals can design residences up to 20,000 SF in Texas...
- Does "residential" mean multi-unit houses as well?
- Is it really 20,000 SF or 10,000 SF? (I've heard both ways...)
i am pretty sure it varies state to state
and you can design whatever you want, you might just need someone else to sign off on it for permits
varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction of course...but in my province, the AIBC, (which is equivalent to a state accreditation body in the US) has some great documents in their library of documents:
http://www.aibc.ca/member_resources/doc_index/index.html
in particular, scroll down to Bulletin 31 - when is an architect is required on a project? and Bulletin 32 - what titles are restricted to use by registered architects...
as crystal clear as you're going to get from any provincial or state body...
I don't even know how to get licensed.
Did I kill another thread? God damnit.
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