the administration fee for running a competition is about 0.01% of the construction cost, then why do participants has to bare such entry fee + design for free?
if they can't afford the admin fee for a competition then they can't afford architecture.
not to mention some that u pay a fee and never get a single thank you email there after...
i think those who run competitions are businesses, whose main goal is a profit. so any little thing they can do, they will
plus, people pay the fees, so what incentive is there for them to take them away? unless you can convince them that they lost on their design by having a fee, it wont go away
and to play devil's advocate. if you have a free competition, you could argue that you would be getting a ton of students and inexperienced architects looking for their big break. they may produce a nice presentation and a nice image, but if chosen, they then couldnt actually produce the built project
just a thought anyway
why rob the poor? rob those who gain the biggest share in the construction industries, like constractors/suppliers... u never heard of them having to pay in order to tender or submitting quotations...
lawyers do not need to pay inorder to solve your legal problems nor doctors telling you the health problem...
do u think there is something wicked in our professions??
many of these competitions never have a potential to actually get built, so there's no developer/contractor to financially back it (not as if they would be interesting in such a thing anyways...). so they use the fees to sustain the business of the competition: paying the employees who run it, judging entries, promotional materials, competition web site, awards, etc.
i love how people complain about the entry fee then complain about the lack of prize money
free competitions tend to not be something actually being built
at least the free competitions that anyone can enter
i imagine that competitions for large projects to be built can be free as well, but whoever is running it will invite only certain individuals
running a design competition is not free
many times there are worthy design competitions that do not have the money to back everything up front
its a small fee at the beginning, or no competition at all sometimes
Brief example.
Entry Fee = $25x300=$7500
Prize money = site prize 3x$2500=$7500 + grand prize = $10-12.5K = $20K
entry fee help defray some costs but certainly do not cover operational costs. Also free competitions increase the number of entries, which in turn add costs to multiple rounds of judging, etc. take WTC memorial competition for example.
ya ....have to pay the Judges Something.....and big names don't work for free.... Something you should have learned in School.....cause everyone of your instructors were judging your work and ya they werebeing paid by you.....just think about it....some of those smucky instructors were taking part of your tution every semester of school.
as i said at the beginning, i'm talking about competitions for real projects.
funny how architects would start defend for those greedy developers, may be tumbleweed's comment is quite right.
and many ideas competitions are run by institutions like AIA, RIBA or AA...etc, those people are loaded getting contributions/membership fee from everywhere.
and many ideas competitions are not run by loaded institutions
have you ever asked any of these competitions why they charge a fee?
ask the AIA why they do it, since they probably have a better idea than anyone on this board would
if you are so opposed to it, you dont have to enter
did you really just say that the people of NYC should be paying for the WTC memorial?
Well -- complain all you want, if you are offered to participate a contest that run free, even it would be something that would end Huge, you rather make it into a joke and then complain about the fine contests that make a fool of you.
Exactly -- and then people think they need this contest system, as othervise a lot of students will participate M then are those fee contests anything, when they filter out the possible true inspired; I don't think so.
And what happened --- it's like a whole lot didn't realise that exactly this sort of contest is what make far more expose, than the fine qualifying ones -- those none of you newer will has a chance in.
But still you has to support what you all know will not yield the attention, fool yourself by supporting contests others with more years, know , is allway's screwed together.
more often than not, there is no intention on behalf of the organizers of the competition to actually build the winning entry. if they were struggling to raise money to hold a competition, then imagine their difficulties putting a construction budget together. instead, competitions are a good way to leverage public support to garner additional funding (in hopes that something will eventually be built), but 99 times out a hundred, it won't be the winning entry. instead, the competition organizers will turn around and hire a "real" architect once they have substantial public or private backing (see the highline).
europe is a bit of a different beast than the u.s. in this regard; competitions have great clout there, but generally, competitions are a means to get free labor, and with the case of entry fees, it's not even free; you're paying them to do work.
it seems best to approach these competitions as a design exercise and really nothing more. if you go in expecting to win and get your project built, then you really are setting yourself up for a let down. i would imagine that most people who enter are not doing it as a way to pay the bills for their firm. though i could be wrong.
and per
i agree, there is probably some rigging involved in selecting the winners.
how many competitions do people enter? and are they for your job, or as a side thing for fun?
Guess what I mean , is to ask yourself if you belive you can buy it, if you expect something for your money, and if you do think about it if it realy are worth the money if you are just cheating yourself and expect any form of nepotism just becaurse it cost money.
There you could change all that, instead of hasting to catch the price you payed for yourself, be the winner of the Archinect modern structures contest.
Is it to much to ask just some guts ?
True the feeling about some contest can be as I understand the issue are -- and realy the only way to make it do, is to neglect competisions that ask money from you ; these mamuts has the money to pay their own premises, and you will newer catch them, what they want is allready clear spoken by ordering your money in advance.
how many competitions do people enter? and are they for your job, or as a side thing for fun?
i've entered a handful. all on my own or with a friend, never as part of a firm. i mainly do it when i'm feeling intellectually flat or uninspired. i've also done it to learn a new software or to develop a new design idea. i never go in with any expectation of winning (and have yet to win anything).
jafidler
that is what i assume most people are doing, at least i am also. if you find a competition on the internet like this, it doesnt seem like a good way for a firm to find work, as the odds are pretty bad. plus, to pay employees t
I have yet to win anything either, and it doesnt bother me. I dont mind paying an entrance fee and am not upset or bitter at the end if i dont get a prize or a thank you. if the fee is too much or doesnt seem worth it, then i dont enter that particular one.
it seems these are something that is for personal development, not actual prize money or built work. i mean, ideally, these competitions would let you just email your boards to them so you wouldnt have to deal with printing and mailing large packages, but you cant have everything. That always bugs me more than an entrance fee
how much do you usually spend on printing and mailing your entrys? i have yet to find a cheap way to do that unfortunately
to be honest, the only one i spent much money on was the highline ($100 entry, $50 printing, $30 shipping). many competitions i work on, i will not even submit. i think one of the reasons i'm hesitant to submit entries (and my money) was as a result of the highline. the friends of the highline received over 700 entries for that competition that really raised awareness for the project, but after the winner was selected, they ended up having another closed competition with all the usual suspects (d/s, field operations, etc.). the first competition was grassroots and exciting. it got people thinking. the second round was starchitect business as usual. they only jumped on after it became a hot project. that experience was eye-opening. (shortly thereafter the whole wtc competition shananigans followed as well). it made me somewhat cynical about the whole competition process.
yeah that is always my issue with these as well. i never want to spend the money to print and ship. one i am working on now, it will be over $100 to print. i dont know how much i want to bother with that. that is always what ends it for me, is do i have it finished enough to be worth spending the money on to print and ship. usually, i will pay the entry fee to get all the materials and come up with an idea and work on it, and that is almost always worth it, if for nothing else than to have something to design. but then i usually cant spend enough free time on it to get it finished enough to actually be worth spending money to submit.
it sounds like your experience with the highline isnt unusual, which is a shame.
What realy make me look away, is when we has a digital architecture, and still it's nessery to produce not even a mosel, but something even further away the 3D and digitised building projecting -- Paper !
Pictures, renderings ok, but why why why. When we know the future and that newer been about staying with the drafting table.
So those who participate with these old media, is not working eithin future means , those who deliver a Pdf or a 3D file, can not participate and those are more or less, the future.
i think the point of having actual hard copies is that when judging, they are all lined up and the judges can walk around and see them all. plus, if there are any receptions, they will then be displayed.
Jan 3, 08 1:40 pm ·
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what is the rational behind for paying a fee to enter a design competition?
the administration fee for running a competition is about 0.01% of the construction cost, then why do participants has to bare such entry fee + design for free?
if they can't afford the admin fee for a competition then they can't afford architecture.
not to mention some that u pay a fee and never get a single thank you email there after...
i think those who run competitions are businesses, whose main goal is a profit. so any little thing they can do, they will
plus, people pay the fees, so what incentive is there for them to take them away? unless you can convince them that they lost on their design by having a fee, it wont go away
and to play devil's advocate. if you have a free competition, you could argue that you would be getting a ton of students and inexperienced architects looking for their big break. they may produce a nice presentation and a nice image, but if chosen, they then couldnt actually produce the built project
just a thought anyway
i'm always annoyed to see these fees also
correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure that the rational is to keep financially broke people from winning.
why would that be such a concern?
why rob the poor? rob those who gain the biggest share in the construction industries, like constractors/suppliers... u never heard of them having to pay in order to tender or submitting quotations...
lawyers do not need to pay inorder to solve your legal problems nor doctors telling you the health problem...
do u think there is something wicked in our professions??
the enviro-capitalist comps are usually even more pricey ;)
...then they publish them in a book of the entries and sell them back to everyone
many of these competitions never have a potential to actually get built, so there's no developer/contractor to financially back it (not as if they would be interesting in such a thing anyways...). so they use the fees to sustain the business of the competition: paying the employees who run it, judging entries, promotional materials, competition web site, awards, etc.
i love how people complain about the entry fee then complain about the lack of prize money
free competitions tend to not be something actually being built
at least the free competitions that anyone can enter
i imagine that competitions for large projects to be built can be free as well, but whoever is running it will invite only certain individuals
running a design competition is not free
many times there are worthy design competitions that do not have the money to back everything up front
its a small fee at the beginning, or no competition at all sometimes
Brief example.
Entry Fee = $25x300=$7500
Prize money = site prize 3x$2500=$7500 + grand prize = $10-12.5K = $20K
entry fee help defray some costs but certainly do not cover operational costs. Also free competitions increase the number of entries, which in turn add costs to multiple rounds of judging, etc. take WTC memorial competition for example.
ya ....have to pay the Judges Something.....and big names don't work for free.... Something you should have learned in School.....cause everyone of your instructors were judging your work and ya they werebeing paid by you.....just think about it....some of those smucky instructors were taking part of your tution every semester of school.
as i said at the beginning, i'm talking about competitions for real projects.
funny how architects would start defend for those greedy developers, may be tumbleweed's comment is quite right.
and many ideas competitions are run by institutions like AIA, RIBA or AA...etc, those people are loaded getting contributions/membership fee from everywhere.
WTC memorial? really?? I thought New York city ppl can afford it? no?
and many ideas competitions are not run by loaded institutions
have you ever asked any of these competitions why they charge a fee?
ask the AIA why they do it, since they probably have a better idea than anyone on this board would
if you are so opposed to it, you dont have to enter
did you really just say that the people of NYC should be paying for the WTC memorial?
Well -- complain all you want, if you are offered to participate a contest that run free, even it would be something that would end Huge, you rather make it into a joke and then complain about the fine contests that make a fool of you.
i dont think they are complaining about the free ones per, i think its the ones that have a fee that bother people
Exactly -- and then people think they need this contest system, as othervise a lot of students will participate M then are those fee contests anything, when they filter out the possible true inspired; I don't think so.
Remember ?
And what happened --- it's like a whole lot didn't realise that exactly this sort of contest is what make far more expose, than the fine qualifying ones -- those none of you newer will has a chance in.
But still you has to support what you all know will not yield the attention, fool yourself by supporting contests others with more years, know , is allway's screwed together.
more often than not, there is no intention on behalf of the organizers of the competition to actually build the winning entry. if they were struggling to raise money to hold a competition, then imagine their difficulties putting a construction budget together. instead, competitions are a good way to leverage public support to garner additional funding (in hopes that something will eventually be built), but 99 times out a hundred, it won't be the winning entry. instead, the competition organizers will turn around and hire a "real" architect once they have substantial public or private backing (see the highline).
europe is a bit of a different beast than the u.s. in this regard; competitions have great clout there, but generally, competitions are a means to get free labor, and with the case of entry fees, it's not even free; you're paying them to do work.
gotta love architecture.
greater clout
"europe is a bit of a different beast than the u.s. in this regard;"
Oh yes -- but how can it be that the same four or five, in my contry allway's are the winners --- esp. in the "public" contests.
it seems best to approach these competitions as a design exercise and really nothing more. if you go in expecting to win and get your project built, then you really are setting yourself up for a let down. i would imagine that most people who enter are not doing it as a way to pay the bills for their firm. though i could be wrong.
and per
i agree, there is probably some rigging involved in selecting the winners.
how many competitions do people enter? and are they for your job, or as a side thing for fun?
what about europan, per? it seems like a number of obscure offices have gotten their start by winning that competition.
it's not a perfect system, but i think works better than it does in the states.
I can't talk about what I know nothing about "europan" I simply don't know, but I guess I has to take a look.
Still -- participate what you must, but use your eyes and your brains before entering what is obvious.
Guess what I mean , is to ask yourself if you belive you can buy it, if you expect something for your money, and if you do think about it if it realy are worth the money if you are just cheating yourself and expect any form of nepotism just becaurse it cost money.
There you could change all that, instead of hasting to catch the price you payed for yourself, be the winner of the Archinect modern structures contest.
Is it to much to ask just some guts ?
True the feeling about some contest can be as I understand the issue are -- and realy the only way to make it do, is to neglect competisions that ask money from you ; these mamuts has the money to pay their own premises, and you will newer catch them, what they want is allready clear spoken by ordering your money in advance.
i've entered a handful. all on my own or with a friend, never as part of a firm. i mainly do it when i'm feeling intellectually flat or uninspired. i've also done it to learn a new software or to develop a new design idea. i never go in with any expectation of winning (and have yet to win anything).
jafidler
that is what i assume most people are doing, at least i am also. if you find a competition on the internet like this, it doesnt seem like a good way for a firm to find work, as the odds are pretty bad. plus, to pay employees t
I have yet to win anything either, and it doesnt bother me. I dont mind paying an entrance fee and am not upset or bitter at the end if i dont get a prize or a thank you. if the fee is too much or doesnt seem worth it, then i dont enter that particular one.
it seems these are something that is for personal development, not actual prize money or built work. i mean, ideally, these competitions would let you just email your boards to them so you wouldnt have to deal with printing and mailing large packages, but you cant have everything. That always bugs me more than an entrance fee
how much do you usually spend on printing and mailing your entrys? i have yet to find a cheap way to do that unfortunately
to be honest, the only one i spent much money on was the highline ($100 entry, $50 printing, $30 shipping). many competitions i work on, i will not even submit. i think one of the reasons i'm hesitant to submit entries (and my money) was as a result of the highline. the friends of the highline received over 700 entries for that competition that really raised awareness for the project, but after the winner was selected, they ended up having another closed competition with all the usual suspects (d/s, field operations, etc.). the first competition was grassroots and exciting. it got people thinking. the second round was starchitect business as usual. they only jumped on after it became a hot project. that experience was eye-opening. (shortly thereafter the whole wtc competition shananigans followed as well). it made me somewhat cynical about the whole competition process.
yeah that is always my issue with these as well. i never want to spend the money to print and ship. one i am working on now, it will be over $100 to print. i dont know how much i want to bother with that. that is always what ends it for me, is do i have it finished enough to be worth spending the money on to print and ship. usually, i will pay the entry fee to get all the materials and come up with an idea and work on it, and that is almost always worth it, if for nothing else than to have something to design. but then i usually cant spend enough free time on it to get it finished enough to actually be worth spending money to submit.
it sounds like your experience with the highline isnt unusual, which is a shame.
What realy make me look away, is when we has a digital architecture, and still it's nessery to produce not even a mosel, but something even further away the 3D and digitised building projecting -- Paper !
Pictures, renderings ok, but why why why. When we know the future and that newer been about staying with the drafting table.
So those who participate with these old media, is not working eithin future means , those who deliver a Pdf or a 3D file, can not participate and those are more or less, the future.
i think the point of having actual hard copies is that when judging, they are all lined up and the judges can walk around and see them all. plus, if there are any receptions, they will then be displayed.
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