Where are you moving from?

The closest "nice" neighborhood is probably the Art Museum area, and would be within walking distance when the weather is nice (not likely in Feb/March, though). Very small buildings, very narrow streets, very urban feel.

For something a bit more green and spread-out, I'd suggest the East Falls neighborhood further up the Schuylkill River. It's beyond walking distance, but you could have a beautiful bike ride along Kelly Drive when weather permits. I lived in Blythewood Apartments in East Falls and loved it there, and next door are the beautiful 1920's landmark Alden Park Apartments.

If you have some money to spend, I'd also consider Mount Airy and Chestnut Hill. You might be able to find some affordable rentals in those areas, but it's mostly single-family houses.

Other parts of town:

North Philly = Ghetto

West Philly = Sort of like North Philly but with the Penn campus.

South Philly = Semi-ghetto, but improving.

Northeast Philly = New Jersey-style blue-collar suburbia

Center City = Nice, but may be too dense for a family.

Manayunk = Yuppies and hipsters with money to burn.

Overall, Philly is a cool town, but you'll have to spend some time getting to know the city. It's not nearly as bad as the locals say it is.

Welcome to Philly!

LIG - I think you can actually consider 20th and Callowhill as being in the Art Museum Area.

It is rather dense and you might not own a patch of grass, but there is good access to open areas around there. LIG did get a pretty good general idea of the extents of Philly (N, S, W, NE) but with emphasis on "general". There are some good neighborhoods/ communities within the "ghettos" and "blue-collar suburbia".

Thank you LiG and UaA. I'll be working a couple of blocks north of where those photos were taken. We're moving from the Detroit area.

For now, we are thinking of focussing our efforts on the Museum area but as I said earlier, we're open to pretty much anything so long as it's a nice walkable neightborhood with amenities close by.

I've lived in Philly before and my wife has commuted there for work but both of our stints were very short and for the most part we were only able to get to know specific areas of Philly (Rittenhouse and Market Street coordidoor).

We are both 'urban kids' and very much look forward togetting back into city life (we were in Chicago before the D). It's quite daunting to think of picking up and moving the family 600 miles to new surroundings.

Thank you Philarch!

There's always Craig's List and the other 'rental' websites out there but would you guys recommend any other good resources for finding rentals for some of those areas?

Phil and Rita, where do you guys live?

Phil are there some specific areas "within" that you might recommend?

Obviously, I won't give out my address but I live in the South Western corner of Center City.

What I meant by the "within" comment for example is - "South Philly" is technically the city south of South Street. There are nice neighborhoods like "Bella Vista" and "Queen Village" in South Philly although they are actually relatively expensive to live in. Graduate Hospital area is getting much better.

There are other examples that I can't list off the top of my head. These "areas" aren't always 100% well defined. They can shrink, grow, merge, & etc over time.

I guess my point is that you shouldn't think that because it is one block into South, West, or North Philly, it'll all of a sudden be "ghetto." And you'll be surprised what you can find in Center City or some of the other places you'd assume would be too expensive. Obviously with a kid though, it'll make your decisions harder.

Good luck.

Thanks Phil and UaA. Of course, no physical addresses! =) I was just curious of general areas. We stumbled across a dog park in SW Philly. It was nice. We would love to find a place close by there! I have a friend in Bella Vista. He and his wife love it there. I really liked it when I visited back in August but it did seem like it could be pretty expensive to find a nice place.

We've been looking at apartments for rent through Craig's list and have been shocked by what landlords are charging. Some say it's because of Philadelphia's close proximity to NY and others say because decent places are hard to find (I guess decent means apartments where you'd let your newborn crawl around on the floor?).

For now my wife and I have decided to focus our efforts on the Art museum area. We were told the basic perimeters are 26th-18th (West to East) and Parrish to Spring Garden (North to South). Is this accurate? LiG mentioned above it's small buildings and narrow streets (urban). Are they predominately rowhomes? Are there some strictly residential streets with commercial thrown in, a mix? What is the area like in terms of amenities.. restaurants, grocery stores, shops.. will we be able to find a vet, a dog boarder or maybe a good pediatrician?

How the heck does one charge a premium in Philadelphia for "proximity to New York??"

I need to become a landlord in Newark, NJ or Gary, IN and start using that logic for my premium rents.

I don't know how much things have changed in the past five years, but when I lived in Philly it was dirt-cheap compared to NYC. Maybe roughly comparable to Chicago, or even slightly cheaper.

After living in Chicago, i can say it's definately more expensive to rent a 'comparable' place in Philly.

Everything is dirt-cheap compared to New York. My experience, though, is that anything on the Northeast corridor (D.C. Boston, Phila, even New Haven) will be far above and beyond the price of what midwesterners are used to. Even Chicago is pretty cheap compared to any of those Northeast cities I just mentioned.

I hear the beautiful old townhouses of Society Hill is where all the upper (upper-middle?) class city folks live. If you can't afford that there's always those big concrete I.M. Pei towers right next door. Then again, that's a couple miles from the art museum.

Oh yeah, don't ditch for the suburbs just because you have kids. I know plenty of people who grew in up Philly proper and they're some of the smartest, most intelligent people I know. Then again, they also went to fancy private high schools in the city with lots of suburban kids who drove in every day. And they got into alcohol and drugs more than the people I know from the suburbs. But that hasn't really seemed to cause any problems...

I always thought center city is really interesting because its skyscrapers are the same average/boring type from the 70s and 80s that you'll find in any major american city, but the streets are so narrow that it feels somehow really special - it makes it a very different type of urban environment.

I can't believe Philly is more expensive than Chicago, but I wouldn't know considering I've never lived in the Windy city. And the rent being high because of proximity to NY? Sounds like BS, but I have heard some property values are going up because New Yorkers are buying them up. Some even actually living in NY and just renting out their Philly property just because they can do it and profit from it. Still, I would think you can find a decent apartment in that area if you look hard enough. There is a "Whole Foods" and a "Trader Joe" that is walkable in that area for groceries. Also there are some good restaurants in that area. In fact, I have a friend that owns a sushi place right around there. I'm not entirely sure about a pediatrician or a vet, but I would think if you can't walk to it, it would be a short taxi/car/bus ride. Center City isn't that far away.

As for the scale of buildings and neighborhood - the character of Philly comes from that smaller scale. Its the same reason it can feel like a small town at times.

society hill is nice for kids. the art museum area is also a good landing spot (near been franklin parkway and trader joes). but with the italian market, who needs TJs

mmm, philly cheese steaks....

no one out west seems to know they're made w/ cheezewhiz.

clowns...

Hell, I can't even get a decent cheesteak here in NYC, and we're only a hundred miles up the road. There's one place on Third Avenue that claims to make an authentic Philly cheesteak, but I had to explain to them what a "hoagie" is. How authentic can they be if they don't even know what a fucking hoagie is?

In Philly, my personal favorite is Jim's at 4th and South Streets. It's a bit on the touristy side, but well worth it. I make a point to visit them whenever I'm in Philly.

my aunt and uncle used to live near south street. maybe one of the few parts of philly i really enjoyed, but i would only visit on the weekends, so i dunno what it's like the rest of the week.

There seems to be quite a bit of new construction in and around Northern Liberties which in turn has a lot of reasonably priced apartments. We've walked through there last summer and while it was quite nice there did seem to be a big disconnect from the rest of Center City. I think in part it's due to the connection walking along 2nd towards Market. Once you pass Spring Garden, it's pretty desolate. Though the neighborhood does seem to be pretty self sufficient.

I've also had an incredibly hard time getting people to respond to my Craig's list inquerries. How do these people expect to rent an apartment when they won't get back to you? This goes for individuals and companies who specialize in rentals. wtf?

Northern Liberties is pretty nice
lots of yuppies now it seems

I live in Fishtown, which is begining to be built up and semi nice again, though is a couple years away from reaching that
its very affordable to buy a rowhouse
though i dont recommend that at all with a child, due to some of the locals
my wife and i bought our place here with the plan of finding a bigger place in the suburbs when we have any kids

good luck phila bound!

Thanks, marm! but why eventually move out to the suburbs? And fishtown is not recommened... that's another area we've heard quite a bit about.

I can't remember. Is there a grocery store in NL? It didn't seem that yuppified when we were there.. maybe close but it still felt a little gritty/hipsterish.

I'm curious how those two (NL and fishtown) particular areas get revitalized/gentrified before others that are more connected to CC?

oh yes, you are right its not as yuppified as some other areas. and i wasnt saying that in a bad way either
i meant it is built up really nice now and has a lot of cool areas

yeah Fishtown has a whole lot of work to be done still, but i have been here almost 2 years and it is still moving forward. so it seems like it might become nice
the key for me was to find a decent street to live on
i'm on a small street with no abandoned houses, which is rare to find here
let me tell you though, it can be a sketchy walk to the train station at times, and its only 3 blocks!

my wife has lived in the city for more than 10 years now and is tired of it
she wants a house with a nice yard and we have a lot of friends right over the bridge in nj where we might look next
who knows, there are a lot of pluses and minuses for both living in the city and living in the suburbs and i am not sure which way i am leaning yet


to answer your last question, i think these areas are getting revitalized because properties there were in bad shape and very cheap to buy a couple years ago when it started
i dont know for sure, but that would be my guess

It seems that Northern Liberties does have a lot of rentals available. Some are new construction and some loft conversions. NL definately has a well defined cooridor along 2nd Street. It's just too bad it basically dead ends into Spring Garden. Can anyone comment about the adjacent areas (along 2nd)? Also, it seems people are calling properties as far west as 12th Street "NL" neighborhood.

What is the Graduate Hospital area like? What are its borders?

I'm getting incredibly antsy about the move, almost to the point of panic attack. I'm planning on flying into town at the end of the month and will give myself a few days to scope places out. We are basically relying heavily on pictures and descriptions of rentals to establish a "to see list" while I'm there. I don't know how wise this is but I don't see any other alternative.

my limited experience shows NL to be very well defined along 2nd, but you are correct, it sort of does dead end
the adjacent areas are all similar to the rest of philadelphia outside of center city, basically, it is hit or miss, block to block

i am not familiar with the graduate hospital area, cant really comment on it

good luck with your move!
have you thought about meeting with a real estate agent?

Thanks, marmkid! I've tried contacting a few "rental agencies" but have not had any luck getting a response. Or we can get them on the phone and they say they'll email what they have available only then nothing is sent. It's been a very frustrating experience.

phila, sorry I've been so slow on this one.

NL is fun but somehow very isolated from the city proper. I lived there for 3 months when I first moved to Philly and it was hard to get into the city - the El stops at the end of Spring Garden, but then it would take you down south to Market and you'd have a long walk back up north to your job. There must be a decent bus line E-W on Spring Garden, but again - NL seems isolated.

I had friends in Art Museum proper - around 20th Street - who commuted down to Independence Hall area via bus, which was not *too* hard but a bit of a hassle. I also have a good friend with a place on 16th and Mt. Vernon - she lives out of town and rents it, but she has tenants already. 16th is a *little* ghetto, but not overly so, my friend had a baby in that house and raised her to age 3, she used to walk every day down to the Please Touch Museum, the Library, Franklin Institute etc with the baby in a stroller, no worries. But I think west of 18th is really Art Museum proper and a bit nicer i.e. also more expensive.

Grad Hospital is where I lived, 17th and Bainbridge, This was a great location as we could easily walk to the South Street Whole Foods and Superfresh as well as Rittenhouse Square. When I bought there we were told we were crazy, that it was too dangerous. Four years later it was highly desirable as the last affordable bit of center city-ish area. Queen Village is pricey, as is Bella Vista; Society Hill is astronomical. Not to say there isn't a chance of finding an affordable place there, but it would take time on the ground and connections, which I know you don't have. Grad Hospital area does offer an easy bus ride north to your job, I think.

Strangely, I also had a friend who lived in a highrise on Rittenhouse Square for a surprisingly low amount of money. You never know what you might find.

hi LB!!! :)

i dont have much first hand experience with this, but i believe "rental agencies" can be terrible. what if you met with an actual real estate agent to discuss your options. when i was buying my house, our real estate agent was very helpful with what the general areas are like. it might help to get to know what certain areas are like, which seems important with a child.

i might have just lucked out and had an agent who was more helpful than most

again, that also could take more time than you have, and i dont know for sure that it would help. but i have known of a couple rental agencies that were just terrible and essentially were slum lords. so hearing that some didnt get back to you doesnt surprise me at all.


i agree with liberty bell, NL seems pretty isolated from the city. The Art Museum area is really nice, my wife lived there for 4 years before we bought our house. Part of the reason she left was because it was getting a little expensive, but with a child, it is a nice area. she walked to work, and she worked right next to city hall.

Thank you very much, lb. As always your insight is very much appreciated. I only wish ya'll were still there!

I think a large part of my frustration and anxiety lies in the nature of Philly itself; there are very few clear neighborhood boundaries. One street can be lovely and the next can be awful. We have a newborn and Mom works from home. We also have dogs who will need to be walked regularly. I want my wife to feel comfortable and safe. This feels like such a cliche but priorities change when you have a little'un.

One situation that is making things tougher is we have a friend who recently moved there. She and her hubby are living in the Art Museum area. They love it. She's been nice enough to scope out a few places that we are really interested in. The problem comes from her descriptions about these apartments. At one, she even ran into the mail carrier and cornered he/she to ask about a particular street. He/she didn't paint a pretty picture and thus the Mrs. is getting worried.

Regarding the Art Museum area, I hear you do not want to go north of Fairmont or east of 20th. Is this fairly accurate? I've never walked that area or walked down Fairmont for that matter so I can't make a fair enough call.

Grad Hospital might be a great alternative. Rent there seems to be very affordable and there are lots of amenities close by. It would also be a straight shot north to work. Are there specific areas (streets) in GH we should avoid? How far south can I go?

Thanks, marmkid. What intersection did your wife live near in the AM area?

she lived at 23rd and fairmount, right next to the large fenced in parking lot that is by Eastern State Penetentary (actually a lot nicer than it sounds, tons of restaurants)

and you have heard correctly, there are boundaries to the art museum area you shouldnt go past, but unfortunately, i dont know them that well

I too lived near 'graduate hospital' at between 21st/22nd on st. albans. the hood gets progressively sketchier/grimier/more dangerous the further south towards washington ave and west towards the Navy Home/graves ferry neighborhood. above south street is yuppieville, below south street, there are pockets of extreme poverty,abandoned lots/houses, and drug dealing/random violence.

between 24th & 25th on st. albans is becomes a walk street that is highly desirable with a very strong sense of community. Bainbridge is the last 'nice' street, and is one block north of st. albans.

again, most of the problems come from folks from other areas/streets. all my neighbors were hard working respectful folks whom I was proud to get to know.

there is a nice family neighborhood between rittenhouse square and the river - i'm forgetting it's name.

Grad Hospital: bordered clearly to the north by South Street. Anything above South is going to be fine, more or less safe (as safe a big city is).

As of 3 years ago, south of Catherine was pretty sketchy.

East of 17th to Broad (the eastern limit of the district) was sketchy. Which isn't to say I didn't walk those blocks, with Angus in stroller, every day. No problems.

West of 21st used to be pretty scary too, but Toll Brothers did a huge market rate housing development just west of Grey's Ferry on the old Naval Home site - this is the project, and while it might make you sick to your stomach, it is probably fairly yuppie people who live there. So the western part of Grad Hospital is definitely undergoing revitalization.

And - I have a friend on one of the "square" blocks in that area - St. Alban's Square, Madison Square - where the houses front on courts that are closed to traffic. Lots of architects and designers buy on these blocks because they are so urbanistically cool! They are diverse blocks but mainly populated, by now, with up and comers. There's a nice grocery store at 23rd and South.

tk, I think you're talking about Fitler Square between Ritt Square and the river - lovely area, very pricey. Kahn's house and studio are there.

Speaking of celebrities, Ed Bacon lives on Locust Street. You might see Kevin or Kyra Sedgwick come out of that house if you hang around it long enough.

Ah, sorry if you didn't know LB, but Ed Bacon passed away a couple years ago. I did see him once just sitting outside his house - didn't talk to him, but I in retrospect maybe I should have.

"I think a large part of my frustration and anxiety lies in the nature of Philly itself; there are very few clear neighborhood boundaries"

I never saw this as a bad thing, but then again I don't have a kid. I kind of like being able to walk through many neighborhoods in one day. You become more aware of the subtle and not so subtle changes within a city - and I can guage what physical and non-physical cues define communities and the sense of place.

Graduate hospital (or G-Ho for the hip) has definitely been getting better, but I still don't know what its like to raise a kid there. I still think you can find good deals north of South street, and south of Market. Maybe you have to be OK with the fact that the apartment that you will be living in for a year won't be THE place. When I first moved into the city I picked the first affordable place in a decent area (which I didn't realize was the Gayborhood - is that politically correct btw?) Then as I was living here, I was able to walk around and look for apartments, walk through neighborhoods, etc.

from what i understand, the gayborhood is a great place to live
(though i dont know if it is pc or not)

Yeah, there is certainly a lot of character in that neighborhood and safe from my experience. There are some streets like Quince Street that represented and old Philadelphia for me.

Gayborhood is so much more pc than "G-Ho" - good lord, that almost makes me happy I don't live there anymore!

Kidding. That pic of Quince Street makes me want to cry - I walked it frequently on my way to work. I miss Philly so much, especially those gingko-strewn tiny streets in fall. Sigh....

I was perfectly happy to raise my kid in Grad Hospital, we even used, frequently, the playground at Marion Anderson Rec Center a block south of us. True, I often had to rouse sleeping bums out of the climbing gym to do this, but they always obliged and never complained. That's life in the big city. And I know lots of other people in the neighborhood with kids, too.

Gayboorhood's only drawbakck (besides price) is it *does* tend to stay noisy late into the night, as there are many bars and after-hours places. My block in G-Ho was near silent on weekend mornings - I once saw a hawk 3' outside my kitchen window.

Philarch, I suspected Ed Bacon had died, don't recall if I actually knew it or just imagined it. My memory is terrible.

collingswood may be the most civilized suburb on the jersey side with good transit links - just in case you desire a yard and garage.

while you're talking suburbs, you can always consider Elkins Park. I've spent half my life in Philadelphia, half in the suburbs. I definitely don't agree with the amount of sprawl in my area of the burbs but there is something to be said for suburbs like Elkins Park. As far as raising a family-that may be a better fit, who knows.

Since we've confused phila bound enough, lets fill him in on the most important piece of information: Philadelphia has been rated the ugliest city in the country! I'm glad you are able to join us. Check that article to find out more.

http://www.planetizen.com/node/27872

Thanks folks. I really do appreciate all of the wonderful and insightful comments.

My wife stumbled across this website this morning.

That photo of Quince St is beautiful.

Philarch, I absolutely agree with you on the subtle changes of neighborhoods. That is what we loved about being in Chicago. We would walk for miles and miles new hoods or places we'd been to dozens of times. We always loved finding something new or different about a place we'd been to many many times. It's just safety we are concerned.

I do not want a yard or a garage in the typical sense (unless it's to put my woodshop)! =)

Oh god, that post is tearing my heart out - I miss my home!!

Jerk Hut is indeed legendary, their back patio is where part of In Her Shoes was filmed (vado just saw it - I haven't because I'm afraid I'll cry in longing all the way through).

The blogster did not mention Tangier, at 18th and South, I sure hope it is still open because it is *the* best place for a casual beer and burger in the city. I used to eat there twice a month. Too smoky after I had Angus in tow, though.

thats a coincidence, cuz my crib is nicknamed the jerk hut.

vado, are you coming to Brian's opening tonight? I'm shooting for 6pm, with Angus in tow. We'll stay as long as Angus can deal with art.

What do you guys think of a lease to own situation?

the places that are advertised as lease to own are dumps and in undesirable 'hoods from what I've seen in philly and mpls. not that there are gems to be found. it all depends on who the current landlord is and their motivation for doing a lease to own.

remember the rent-a-center and similar furniture places are making a killing by charging 5 times what something is worth to the poor who don't have credit.

Thanks for your honesty, tk. From the few we have run across, they definately seem on the questionable side. Though a few offer at the end of the "rental year" the option to put the previous year's "rent" towards the purchase. So basically you would have a year to try it out before getting stuck in a bad situation.

beware of rent-to-own. seen several news episodes of the investors in those scams skipping out on the mortgage and the renters "equity."

My wife has been trolling the Philadelphia blog. Here's what someone posted about Grad Hospital.

"Ultimately, you will probably hear lots of strong opinions both ways,
but I suspect overall after everyone weighs in, the good will far
outweigh the bad. (And most of the bad will probably come from those who don't live here or really don't know what it's like.)

That said, I'm one of the ones with a strong "thumbs up" opinion of
this "Graduate Hospital" neighborhood of South Philly, also lovingly
known as G-Ho / SWCC / Marian Anderson Village, and who knows what will be next.

My husband & I have lived on 20th near Carpenter for about a year & a half now. In that time, the changes & new developments we've seen have been amazing. All sorts of new & rehabbed homes & other
buildings going up, and new people arriving all the time. And at the
same time, the area's longer-term residents are definitely among the
nicest/friendliest neighbors we've ever had the pleasure to know.

Having said that, you will undoubtedly already know that we also still
have our share of issues (as does most of the rest of Philly). But by
all accounts crime is definitely on the downswing around here. (Which
you should be able to confirm for yourself by checking the stats out
of the 17th Police District.)

As far as what areas are better than others, that's hard to say, as
there are definitely some better/worse pockets throughout the 'hood.
For example, in general people will say the closer to South Street you
are the better, and certainly the proximity to Center City means the
prices will be higher the further North you go. But personally I
would rather be where we are (on 20th near Carpenter, which is quite
close to Washington, the Southern border of the 'hood) than say on
22nd & Catherine or 22nd & St. Albans, which is further North but is
also reportedly one of those troublesome "pockets" still at the moment (where you might have heard there has been some nasty drug-dealing activity & we had a recent shooting).

So my advice would be to do a lot of walking/driving around, at all
hours of the day/night, weekdays/weekends & also try to talk to the
people you meet & then judge for yourself.

And for what it's worth, personally I would think a rent with an
option to buy situation around here (perhaps in one of the many nice
new houses around) could be an excellent way to test the waters before theoretically still getting into your own home before the prices start shooting up again."