Dan/TK help please in identifying mint in the wild. I am going hiking and would love to pick up some mint leaves/plant for a couple mojitos when I get home. Help please
if it smells like mint when crushed, it probably is mint. Not sure if there are lots of wild mint growing around your Caribbean isle. it tends to be rather aggressive in the temperate climes to the point that most folks treat it like a weed.
note the serrated edge of the leaves, which are slightly fuzzy.
also recognizable when floating in a glass with rum or cachaça, some ice, lime and simple syrup. or like this:
Is it Golden Rain Tree, Golden Raintree or Goldenraintree? I'm making small pamphlets for a meeting we're having tonight and I'd like to know the correct spelling as I've seen it spelled all three ways.
hey guys, growing up in England
my mom had this plant that has
nothing to do with the lemon tree
family but when you rub its leaves
with your fingers, your fingers smelled
like lemons. it used to be the most
amazing plant
any idea?
the euc deglupta trunk looks great. i think not so tough in dry areas. might be good in SF, sc, slo, santa barbara, or florida(?).
j regia (persian walnut, the commercial crop) leaves smell nice. california black walnut (hindsii) is a bit stinky. Ailanthus is just weird smelling. the walnuts don't grow in suckering thickets. pecans are nice, but squirrels will get any nut you try growing.
graptopetalum is to self-disintegrating (dispersing?) to become boilerplate. good plant.
crocosmia is a weed, though you can pull it. chamanthe is less likely weedy, larger, less showy. found in older (pre 1960) sfbay areas. i like it because the size makes it more unusual.
poplars (cottonwood etc) are a homestead pond tree, not for the suburbs (or the urbs)
aloysia triphylla wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_verbena has hyper lemon scent. branches thin and irregularly, but is fine behind lower plants.
sarah's street magnolias are probably the evergreen m. grandiflora (full size are common, but there are some smaller selections)
tm: the fuzzy leafed shrub w/violet blue fl is echium fatuosum. self seeds ebay hills. a few other echiums are freaky, and grow well in that climate (w/water)
tm: wetter looking pale violet, looks like a hebe. need cooler or shorter summers. oregonstate.edu/dept/NWREC/Hebe/page3.html
i prefer tough plants.
true bay laurus nobilis. even slower than umbellularia but i think looks better.
amaryllis belladona. classic
acanthus
centranthus.
a few large bignoniacea.
cissus antarctica
pistacia chinensis
regular pistachio (p vera)
mango (i can't grow it)
casimiroa s (sapote)
annona cherimola. great for fog.
apricots. peach/nectarine.
p cerasus, sour cherries aren't as good as p avium (commercial) and aren't actually sour, but they're tough with some water. overlooked.
euro plums (often overlooked in sfbay, but great)
almonds, because they're variable, nice, early bloom, and aren't weeds. die prematurely in heavy soil. there's no point in growing "flowering cherries" since almonds do better.
q lobata (valley oak), q agrifolia (coast live o). q ilex is ok (smaller) cork oak is also ok.
hollies (ilex) look great, but except for the homely i cornuta, seem unreliable.
figs.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziziphus
grapes, espec the muscats or muscat hybrids.
apples. "asian" pears.
punica (pomegranate) fantastic plant.
various physalis (husk cherries). interesting, though not too tasty.
any citrus and kunquat.
loquat :-)
persimmon
avocados, though squirrels will get most of the fruit.
carissa. good, but survives frost better in s CA.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Penstemon
arbutus unedo
a menziesii - madrone. very nice but a SOD victim.
larger arctostaphylos. (scroll down www.coestatepark.com/arctostaphylos_glauca.htm)
some senecios
fremontodendron. lavatera
prunus lusitanica (low water, but i doubt will survive without some water)
agapanthus, if not in full day sun.
borage o
myosotis s
carob - ceratonia s. (has odd stink if flowering during rain)
rumohra (tough) www.plantzafrica.com/plantcd/dryopter.htm
pittosporum tobira, the real ones, not the stupid wheeleri or the wishy washy variegated one.
p undulatum. nice minitree
brahea (never grown them, but i've seen them when large. tough and freaky)
dietes. common but good.
ligustrum lucidum. messy, potentially slightly weedy, but tough small tree. the other L are hardly worth growing.
nerium oleander were supposed to wiped out years ago, but they're "permanent" here.
big clump bamboos.
narcissus.
tomatoes. easy.
acacia melanoxylon and some others look great. weeds in some areas.
freesia, ixia, sparaxis, though they die off after some years.
homeria
iris.
ceanothus are good, though they're either growing or they're too old and dying.
phormium hybrids "nz flax". not unusual as is dianella (tumbleweed's blue flax) but easy.
cypress. (cupressus)
cedrus atlantica
j 'Kaizuka' (Torulosa) - Hollywood Juniper
lagerstroemia. the older (before hybrids) have nicer foliage, but can get mildewy.
a lot of aloes, crassulacea, opuntias, stapelia, euphorbs. succulents are a specialty.
This purple/blue flower volunteered last summer and came back again this summer. I've been calling it "cornflower" because the leaves/stems look like corn, but I have no idea. Anyone?
So, I've been planning to photograph and post the trees I have in my yard for y'all to identify, but a strangly twitchy man came to the house to trim them, and turns out he's a 'tree-guy.' He told me I have 1 Fruitless Mulberry that is badly in need of water, a Live Oak (I always called it an acorn tree, and now that its cleaned out, its 3xs bigger than I thought.) in the front yard, and a Fruitless mulberry in the corner of the back yard. So, since I don't need them Identified, why did I call you here?
The sole tree in the back yard, the mulberry, has a case of heart-rot, and apparently its like cancer, and incurable. sniff. It was suggested that I plant another tree so that by the time the current one has to be removed, the new one will be ready to take its place. The current tree is in the perfect location, so my question is, should we plant a tree next to it, is that even possible, or plant a tree in the opposite corner? Should I go with another mulberry, or something different. I always wanted a japenese magnolia, but they dont get particularly shady, and I dont know how well they do in Dallas. The problem with the opposite corner is that on the other side of the fence is the power pole and transformer bucket.
Oh, LB, is that your back yard? I'm diggin' that sweet paving.
That's spiderwort. It is in the purple heart, wandering Jew family. I think it is a Tradescanthia, if I am not mistaken. Too busy too look it up right now.
Mulberries have short lives. Many of them die by way of the heartwood rot. I would not plant a new one or attempt to transplant the other.
Japanese magnolia (or saucer magnolia, or tuliptree as we learned earlier) should do alright, though you will have to keep water on it as it is drier in Dallas, especially during establishment and in the driest months. I recommend using soaker hoses or drip emitters.
Thanks Daniel! I looked it up and it's sometimes called "cow snot" or similar because when you cut it the sap inside is like mucus that stretches out in long gooey strings - I thrilled two 5yo boys with a demonstration of it this evening!
I also read that after it finishes blooming you can cut it back and it will sometimes bloom again - decided to try it. Very cool, thank you so much for the answer!
Yes, Sarah, that's my house/yard and the paving pad is a little "weekend project" that ended up taking 18 months to finish. Also note the foreground brown paint and white columns in the background - painting the whole house brown is taking a coupla years too. oh, and the downspout shown will eventually drain to a rain barrel - we've had the former soda syrup plastic barrel sitting around for at least a year waiting to start its second life, too. I'm very laid back when it comes to my own house, though not my clients!
LB - yoou sound a lot like me. I've got those same flowers in my way back, in both purple and white. They've come back two years in a row. Hopefully they'll come back for a third, as I really like their color and "texture".
Where is this photo taken? It looks like it might be a royal paulownia or empress tree, but the leaves look a little too round. Paulownia leaves usually appear more lobed than that.
Anyway, the scientific name is Paulownia tomentosa, if that is indeed what it is.
Ah, I had been spelling it wrong, no wonder google wasn't working! The photo was taken in a vacant warehouse next door to my building in Baltimore, Maryland. Along with Alianthus, this a very common fast-growing 'invasive' plant species that quickly occupies vacant lots and leftover space in the city.
Yes, it has got to be Paulownia, then. We have both Paulownia and Ailanthus here in Memphis as well.
Actually, in Covington, TN, north of Memphis, there are some really old Ailanthus trees planted in the courthouse square, probably some of the original trees brought over from China. I have heard they were gifts from the Chinese government at the time. Anyway, these trees are huge, about 48"-60" diameter trunks. Really big majestic trees.
Daniel, what is a fast growing, beautiful deciduous tree that I could plant here in Dallas? Can I plant a tree next to the trunk of the terminal mulberry?
Thanks for the info, Daniel. Yeah, I'm becoming really fascinated by these volunteer tree/weeds that grow quickly and effortlessly in abandoned spaces. They're both scorned by a lot of landscapers here, but made into useful things in other cultures.
Ailanthus is called 'The Tree of Heaven' in China and in Japan they call Paulownia 'The Princess Tree'.
Are you looking for a shade tree or a smaller flowering tree? A good shade tree for Dallas would probably be a cottonwood (Populus deltoides). They actually are very adaptable, they grow here in Memphis and in dry states like New Mexico. For an ornamental flowering tree you can use the larger crape myrtles, if you do not cut them. Crape myrtles are supposed to be trees, and I would rather people leave them alone than cut them at all. The larger varieties like "Natchez", "Sarah's Favorite" and "Muskogee" can get 40'-60' tall if spared the saw. You can also get these in a typical multi-trunk or a single trunk, whichever suits your fancy.
For Dallas, too, isn't there a Sophora tree that does well there, I think another name is mescal bean? It is in the pea family and has blue flowers in the spring.
I would only plant it close to the other tree if it will be taken out soon. Otherwise, remove the other tree first, or pick another location.
The Chinese Pistacio and the Bur oak have been suggested. The pistacio is pretty, but I'm concerned about it being an invasive species. The bur oak is native, I think, but doesn't look as pretty.
I think I will go with a shade tree where the mulburry is, and a flowering tree in the opposite corner.
Its going to be a while until any of this happens, since trees, it turns out, are expensive. How long do you think I have until the mulburry must be removed? Any guesses?
I like the pistache. It has great fall color and can be a good broad-canopied shade tree. We use them a lot in Memphis, and I have not heard of invasive issues with them here. Not sure about Dallas, though.
The mulberry tree is obviously in decline. I would remove it as soon as you can, or able to do it.
If it is a large tree, then it would probably be royal poinciana (Delonix regia). If it is a shrub then it would be powder puff. They both have a similar look to their flowers and foliage.
That's right, I see the "band" around the seeds now. I had never seen it in plant form. My wife and I do love it as a side dish and a substitute for rice.
Where is it grown commercially? In California or do we import from Central or South America?
Daniel, here's a question. But first, thank you for giving out so much free advice here!
This summer I uprooted several maple sprouts from our gutters and put them in pots. The pots are 12" d. and the seedlings are now 12-15" tall.
What should I do with them for winter? I found a lot of info on overwintering Japanese maples for bonsai use, but not much about the regular old maples. I'm thinking of burying the pots in the ground and throwing mulch over them, but it's already 30 degrees outside - it may be too late to dig!
Plant Identification Thread!
No biggie. I just felt like sharing some pretty pics of flowers. I've got a few more waiting in the wings, but perhaps I'll stop :o/
don't stop!
OK :o) here's another
No clue, although it reminds me for some reason of Red Salvia, but the leaves are all wrong.
Btw - anyone know what the one above is? I have no clue, but I love it.
tuna
that's crocosmia, and probably 'Lucifer' if the flowers are bright red. it's a pretty easy to grow cormous perennial. likes sun to partial shade.
Absolutely no clue. All I can tell you it's some sort of bush
Anyone? Anyone?
I guess Ceanothus. However, the blooms appear too large. Ceanothus is a popular shrub on the West Coast.
Daniel, RLA
Dan/TK help please in identifying mint in the wild. I am going hiking and would love to pick up some mint leaves/plant for a couple mojitos when I get home. Help please
if it smells like mint when crushed, it probably is mint. Not sure if there are lots of wild mint growing around your Caribbean isle. it tends to be rather aggressive in the temperate climes to the point that most folks treat it like a weed.
note the serrated edge of the leaves, which are slightly fuzzy.
also recognizable when floating in a glass with rum or cachaça, some ice, lime and simple syrup. or like this:
Beautiful plant mdler. Wish it grew in my neck of the woods :o/ How long and when does it bloom?
mdler-
that is a flax lilly in case you were wondering... ;-)
A few early crocus are up!
HELP!!!!
Is it Golden Rain Tree, Golden Raintree or Goldenraintree? I'm making small pamphlets for a meeting we're having tonight and I'd like to know the correct spelling as I've seen it spelled all three ways.
THANKS!!!!
Goldenrain Tree. Just call it Koelreuteria paniculata, and there'll be no confusion.
p.s. Hi! Had a great time during brunch a few weeks ago.
hey guys, growing up in England
my mom had this plant that has
nothing to do with the lemon tree
family but when you rub its leaves
with your fingers, your fingers smelled
like lemons. it used to be the most
amazing plant
any idea?
These are starting to bloom too
Thanks so much Oysters. I did too.
Philarct -
Did it look like this? If so it's lemon verbena. Grew it in my garden one year and loved it. Smells so good.
is pretty interesting. I think i want a pineapple broom
i have the perfect spot in my window next to my victor von doom bust
tuna..
no, thats close though, same color and stem build, but the leaves
looked like this
and the plant didnt have any flowers or blooms (whatever you call them) the leaves also had peach fuzz
fog- that's the classic lily of the valley.
Errr...some sort of sage? It didn't smell like it though?
not sure,
thats alright ill just call and bother
mommy dearest for it
Philarct,
That is a geranium, and some of them do have lemon, citronella and sage scents in their foliage. That's probably the plant you are looking for.
Daniel, RLA
Oh yeah, Daniel. I completely forgot about those geraniums. Don't they make teas from their leaves. You rock.
the euc deglupta trunk looks great. i think not so tough in dry areas. might be good in SF, sc, slo, santa barbara, or florida(?).
j regia (persian walnut, the commercial crop) leaves smell nice. california black walnut (hindsii) is a bit stinky. Ailanthus is just weird smelling. the walnuts don't grow in suckering thickets. pecans are nice, but squirrels will get any nut you try growing.
graptopetalum is to self-disintegrating (dispersing?) to become boilerplate. good plant.
crocosmia is a weed, though you can pull it. chamanthe is less likely weedy, larger, less showy. found in older (pre 1960) sfbay areas. i like it because the size makes it more unusual.
poplars (cottonwood etc) are a homestead pond tree, not for the suburbs (or the urbs)
aloysia triphylla wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_verbena has hyper lemon scent. branches thin and irregularly, but is fine behind lower plants.
sarah's street magnolias are probably the evergreen m. grandiflora (full size are common, but there are some smaller selections)
tm: the fuzzy leafed shrub w/violet blue fl is echium fatuosum. self seeds ebay hills. a few other echiums are freaky, and grow well in that climate (w/water)
tm: wetter looking pale violet, looks like a hebe. need cooler or shorter summers. oregonstate.edu/dept/NWREC/Hebe/page3.html
i prefer tough plants.
true bay laurus nobilis. even slower than umbellularia but i think looks better.
amaryllis belladona. classic
acanthus
centranthus.
a few large bignoniacea.
cissus antarctica
pistacia chinensis
regular pistachio (p vera)
mango (i can't grow it)
casimiroa s (sapote)
annona cherimola. great for fog.
apricots. peach/nectarine.
p cerasus, sour cherries aren't as good as p avium (commercial) and aren't actually sour, but they're tough with some water. overlooked.
euro plums (often overlooked in sfbay, but great)
almonds, because they're variable, nice, early bloom, and aren't weeds. die prematurely in heavy soil. there's no point in growing "flowering cherries" since almonds do better.
q lobata (valley oak), q agrifolia (coast live o). q ilex is ok (smaller) cork oak is also ok.
hollies (ilex) look great, but except for the homely i cornuta, seem unreliable.
figs.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziziphus
grapes, espec the muscats or muscat hybrids.
apples. "asian" pears.
punica (pomegranate) fantastic plant.
various physalis (husk cherries). interesting, though not too tasty.
any citrus and kunquat.
loquat :-)
persimmon
avocados, though squirrels will get most of the fruit.
carissa. good, but survives frost better in s CA.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Penstemon
arbutus unedo
a menziesii - madrone. very nice but a SOD victim.
larger arctostaphylos. (scroll down www.coestatepark.com/arctostaphylos_glauca.htm)
some senecios
fremontodendron. lavatera
prunus lusitanica (low water, but i doubt will survive without some water)
agapanthus, if not in full day sun.
borage o
myosotis s
carob - ceratonia s. (has odd stink if flowering during rain)
rumohra (tough) www.plantzafrica.com/plantcd/dryopter.htm
pittosporum tobira, the real ones, not the stupid wheeleri or the wishy washy variegated one.
p undulatum. nice minitree
brahea (never grown them, but i've seen them when large. tough and freaky)
dietes. common but good.
ligustrum lucidum. messy, potentially slightly weedy, but tough small tree. the other L are hardly worth growing.
nerium oleander were supposed to wiped out years ago, but they're "permanent" here.
big clump bamboos.
narcissus.
tomatoes. easy.
acacia melanoxylon and some others look great. weeds in some areas.
freesia, ixia, sparaxis, though they die off after some years.
homeria
iris.
ceanothus are good, though they're either growing or they're too old and dying.
phormium hybrids "nz flax". not unusual as is dianella (tumbleweed's blue flax) but easy.
cypress. (cupressus)
cedrus atlantica
j 'Kaizuka' (Torulosa) - Hollywood Juniper
lagerstroemia. the older (before hybrids) have nicer foliage, but can get mildewy.
a lot of aloes, crassulacea, opuntias, stapelia, euphorbs. succulents are a specialty.
uh uh. corrections:
casimiroa edulis
kuMquat
must be (more) typos in there, too.
This purple/blue flower volunteered last summer and came back again this summer. I've been calling it "cornflower" because the leaves/stems look like corn, but I have no idea. Anyone?
So, I've been planning to photograph and post the trees I have in my yard for y'all to identify, but a strangly twitchy man came to the house to trim them, and turns out he's a 'tree-guy.' He told me I have 1 Fruitless Mulberry that is badly in need of water, a Live Oak (I always called it an acorn tree, and now that its cleaned out, its 3xs bigger than I thought.) in the front yard, and a Fruitless mulberry in the corner of the back yard. So, since I don't need them Identified, why did I call you here?
The sole tree in the back yard, the mulberry, has a case of heart-rot, and apparently its like cancer, and incurable. sniff. It was suggested that I plant another tree so that by the time the current one has to be removed, the new one will be ready to take its place. The current tree is in the perfect location, so my question is, should we plant a tree next to it, is that even possible, or plant a tree in the opposite corner? Should I go with another mulberry, or something different. I always wanted a japenese magnolia, but they dont get particularly shady, and I dont know how well they do in Dallas. The problem with the opposite corner is that on the other side of the fence is the power pole and transformer bucket.
Oh, LB, is that your back yard? I'm diggin' that sweet paving.
liberty bell,
That's spiderwort. It is in the purple heart, wandering Jew family. I think it is a Tradescanthia, if I am not mistaken. Too busy too look it up right now.
Daniel, RLA
Sarah,
Mulberries have short lives. Many of them die by way of the heartwood rot. I would not plant a new one or attempt to transplant the other.
Japanese magnolia (or saucer magnolia, or tuliptree as we learned earlier) should do alright, though you will have to keep water on it as it is drier in Dallas, especially during establishment and in the driest months. I recommend using soaker hoses or drip emitters.
Daniel, RLA
I've got another quasi-weed for this thread:
I've heard it called a Polonia Tree, also heard it called Boxwood. Is that accurate?
Thanks Daniel! I looked it up and it's sometimes called "cow snot" or similar because when you cut it the sap inside is like mucus that stretches out in long gooey strings - I thrilled two 5yo boys with a demonstration of it this evening!
I also read that after it finishes blooming you can cut it back and it will sometimes bloom again - decided to try it. Very cool, thank you so much for the answer!
Yes, Sarah, that's my house/yard and the paving pad is a little "weekend project" that ended up taking 18 months to finish. Also note the foreground brown paint and white columns in the background - painting the whole house brown is taking a coupla years too. oh, and the downspout shown will eventually drain to a rain barrel - we've had the former soda syrup plastic barrel sitting around for at least a year waiting to start its second life, too. I'm very laid back when it comes to my own house, though not my clients!
LB - yoou sound a lot like me. I've got those same flowers in my way back, in both purple and white. They've come back two years in a row. Hopefully they'll come back for a third, as I really like their color and "texture".
sevensixfive,
Where is this photo taken? It looks like it might be a royal paulownia or empress tree, but the leaves look a little too round. Paulownia leaves usually appear more lobed than that.
Anyway, the scientific name is Paulownia tomentosa, if that is indeed what it is.
Ah, I had been spelling it wrong, no wonder google wasn't working! The photo was taken in a vacant warehouse next door to my building in Baltimore, Maryland. Along with Alianthus, this a very common fast-growing 'invasive' plant species that quickly occupies vacant lots and leftover space in the city.
765,
Yes, it has got to be Paulownia, then. We have both Paulownia and Ailanthus here in Memphis as well.
Actually, in Covington, TN, north of Memphis, there are some really old Ailanthus trees planted in the courthouse square, probably some of the original trees brought over from China. I have heard they were gifts from the Chinese government at the time. Anyway, these trees are huge, about 48"-60" diameter trunks. Really big majestic trees.
Daniel, RLA
Daniel, what is a fast growing, beautiful deciduous tree that I could plant here in Dallas? Can I plant a tree next to the trunk of the terminal mulberry?
Thanks for the info, Daniel. Yeah, I'm becoming really fascinated by these volunteer tree/weeds that grow quickly and effortlessly in abandoned spaces. They're both scorned by a lot of landscapers here, but made into useful things in other cultures.
Ailanthus is called 'The Tree of Heaven' in China and in Japan they call Paulownia 'The Princess Tree'.
Sarah,
Are you looking for a shade tree or a smaller flowering tree? A good shade tree for Dallas would probably be a cottonwood (Populus deltoides). They actually are very adaptable, they grow here in Memphis and in dry states like New Mexico. For an ornamental flowering tree you can use the larger crape myrtles, if you do not cut them. Crape myrtles are supposed to be trees, and I would rather people leave them alone than cut them at all. The larger varieties like "Natchez", "Sarah's Favorite" and "Muskogee" can get 40'-60' tall if spared the saw. You can also get these in a typical multi-trunk or a single trunk, whichever suits your fancy.
For Dallas, too, isn't there a Sophora tree that does well there, I think another name is mescal bean? It is in the pea family and has blue flowers in the spring.
I would only plant it close to the other tree if it will be taken out soon. Otherwise, remove the other tree first, or pick another location.
Daniel, RLA
Daniel,
The Chinese Pistacio and the Bur oak have been suggested. The pistacio is pretty, but I'm concerned about it being an invasive species. The bur oak is native, I think, but doesn't look as pretty.
I think I will go with a shade tree where the mulburry is, and a flowering tree in the opposite corner.
Its going to be a while until any of this happens, since trees, it turns out, are expensive. How long do you think I have until the mulburry must be removed? Any guesses?
Sarah,
I like the pistache. It has great fall color and can be a good broad-canopied shade tree. We use them a lot in Memphis, and I have not heard of invasive issues with them here. Not sure about Dallas, though.
The mulberry tree is obviously in decline. I would remove it as soon as you can, or able to do it.
Daniel, RLA
Thank you, Daniel, you Rock!
anyone know what this is?
Looks like a Poinciana tree.
Daniel, RLA
thanks for the help - i did a search for 'pom pom flower tree' and came up with this: Calliandra haematocephala or 'powder puff tree'
Millet
If it is a large tree, then it would probably be royal poinciana (Delonix regia). If it is a shrub then it would be powder puff. They both have a similar look to their flowers and foliage.
Qunioa
the most complete protein on earth eaten by Inca for 5000 years
That's right, I see the "band" around the seeds now. I had never seen it in plant form. My wife and I do love it as a side dish and a substitute for rice.
Where is it grown commercially? In California or do we import from Central or South America?
Daniel, RLA
Daniel, here's a question. But first, thank you for giving out so much free advice here!
This summer I uprooted several maple sprouts from our gutters and put them in pots. The pots are 12" d. and the seedlings are now 12-15" tall.
What should I do with them for winter? I found a lot of info on overwintering Japanese maples for bonsai use, but not much about the regular old maples. I'm thinking of burying the pots in the ground and throwing mulch over them, but it's already 30 degrees outside - it may be too late to dig!
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.