Very interesting project, how did you do it --- I mean when I realised the pover of 3dh I tried and tried to find fonds for just a small small project ,to show a bit different attitude towerds how the computer was and are used.--- then what you display with this is not that far from some of the structures I tried out with 3dh .
--- I knew 3dh would mean a revolution in construction by going from 3D model to calculated assembly framework, to production ; that's what I called direct link production back then in 1998 , but even the houses had both roof and walls and was build in a brand new way, newer seen before and had an honest aproach to design, computers, and production, --- then it was not possible to raise one danish krone for my project, that's why I ask , how did you get inspired, how did you raise the money, what is the porpus of these curves --- I seen something back then that was also spirals but these was surface polymesh dings, impossible things to build or atleast very different from the primitive 3dh attitude that would obviously have been a time saver in your project.
Your project seem to go around 3dh ,in any way avoid the instant delivery and yet, no one here made the response I got ; "don't you think it will be a problem with the rain", and no one claimed "this can not work and it look like Nervi" or tried make you a fool ; even it somehow look a bit 3dh'ish ---- how did you maneage that, how did you maneage the same overlap slots that specialists in this fora say is Impossible ?
The entire project is being designed and developed through Rhino, we are hoping to output for fabrication directly from our Rhino files as well.
The application of the rib structure is a response to the material constraints of the competition. We are in no means implying that this particular construction method is the perfect solution to every project, but it works for us in this instance.
The competition is sponsored by Fibre-C, which is a fibre reinforced concrete sheet material. The aim of the project is to use a flat, typically non-structural cladding material, as both structure and skin describing a continuous complex curvature topological form.
This form come as a response to incorporating the functional and programmatic constraints of what a temporary pavilion is, or could be, into a single and continuous formal gesture...while balancing those gestures with a sense of ambiguity. It's an interesting question, "what is a pavilion?". Is it a circulation space? A gathering place? A shelter? A place for sitting? A place for standing? Rather than try to define the form through the functions, we are allowing the form to define the functions. The deck becomes furnishing, which becomes counter, which becomes wall, which becomes roof, which goes back to wall, and returns to floor deck. Yet the lines are blurred, and left ambiguous. The lattice like structure encloses, but remains open.
This continuous skin is then sliced with a series of planes, which we know can be fabricated from flat panels. These sections are limited to dimensions of 5m X 1.2m, as that is the standard sheet size for fibre-c. The spacing of the gaps which break the continuity of the ribs is predicated on this module. The rib profiles are unrolled, nested, and cut by water-jet from these standard sheets of 13mm thick fibre reinforced concrete.
All of the ribs are completely planar, but absolutely none of them are parrallel, thus meaning we have in the neighbourhood of 2000 unique joints. This is something we are contending with at the moment. If you go to the blog you can see some examples of the competition details. We are currently developing and testing a series of joints with our structural engineers AKT. The depth of profiles, joints and overlap are all being analyzed at the moment. More to come on that later...
As a temporary pavilion, and one intended to be re-assembled, we are hoping to avoid any mechanical or bonded fixings. As such, issues such as waterproofing were not necessary to be considered.
All of the funding for the project is being provided by the competition sponsors, organizers, and consultants (Rieder Co, Zaha Hadid Architects, Architectural Association, Adams Kara Taylor).
To follow the rest of the process of delivery for this pavilion, please check for updates on our blog - http://cspacepavilion.blogspot.com
Thank you for a most entlightning answer --- there still are a few details I wonder ; offcaurse why you havn't yet got the same strange questions as I got when I published 3dh , but my vorry is what thoughts you had about assembling the frames, they seem to be assembled basicly the same way as 3dh with an overlap notch, and that issue are crittical , as if that slot don't follow the exact diredtion --- a chareteristic for 3dh ,in fact it describe 3dh that these slots are all same direction othervise the framework can not be assembled naturly --- what I wonder, is what thoughts you had about ensuring that all slots along a frame ,would fit into the opposite slots they must fill out .
That was one question, I just have one more ; now from the pictures you all are quite young, and I guess you are from a generation who all has a computer , one connected to the web , and you are all interested in architecture then I wonder ; have you newer seen 3dh ?
i know for certain, Per, looks are deceiving - they are about 50 y.o. --they dont have computers and are doing this by hand - thats what they do at the AAdrl- nice hand drawing lads!
anyone who has made the most simpliest of laser cut egg crate models understand the importants of the slot - i am sure they get it.
"anyone who has made the most simpliest of laser cut egg crate models understand the importants of the slot - i am sure they get it."
There are something else I don't get --- you see when I started publishing about 3dh, then the first two years, there was no one who mentioned then name egg-create , at that time there was a firm who delivered some very primitive programs , they also sold some n.c. mashines , the programs was so called unfolding programs but when I tried them up against the serie of unfolding tools I wrote, I seriously understood what they wrote about unfolding the way they delivered, or had to deliver as it was smart to be able to unfold, sadly their programs could only "unfold" very simple objects ,where my programs acturly worked.
Later , years later they also started to prpmote something they called egg-create, years after I published 3dh that is. And what they started to promote, I guess to offer some tools for those who would buy their mashines , seriously misunderstood the intire 3dh concept.
Now offcaurse it is cheaper to deliver simple programs, it is also --- still I don't know why you keep bullying me with your egg-create pony , you see I also try make my bread on my skills to develob and newthink these issues and, and realy you do not gain anything, by stabbing my credits , and for what reson ?
It's as if a particular group here in this fora , find an enourmous amusement in hitting some nice guy with brute harasment, somehow even they don't earn one credit, sort of amuse themself by either posting dirty mails or amuse themself by "for fun" destroying my chance to make the credit develobing 3dh before anyone ever got that idear, --- so I want to ask you , even you found this egg-create somewhere I know where, then without informing anything about it, then you happily uses it --- and might I ask, with some sort of joy or ?? --- you kind of back up behind that group who would hate to see the one who develobed this 3dh get his credit --- I ask you , what fun do you feel in knowing you help rob some guy his credit , what fun are there in it, is your picture of me, realy so twisted, that just becaurse you seen some n.c. company suggest something that is not 3dh but a flat assembly with halve notches, then that give you the right to help poison my claims for credit.
I don't understand itm you give no documentation about this egg-create, a but anyway --- and I am sorry to say so, but realy I feel you are just pissing on my rights.
Guess I better exchouse -- what right do I has to interfere in a tread such as this, a positive happy messeage, an exiting ptoject, and I know no one here will bother issues as credits, it is such an expense to give these, even you don't try claim them, it's better that the credit are vasted sorry, I am to blame with all my documenting when 3dh was first published, and yes offcaurse the fora profit most, refusing what's called intelectural property and sure, my family need no food.
Guess this can also be taken as an exchouse of my complaining that artists shuld at all recive any credits, as anyone know new thinking and inventing is not something you do, you "find" it, true ?
And you don't pay a credit, case you can cheat your way out of it, Great Design.
Also there are other angles to this structure than if it can be build or not, I see what 3dh allway's been acused of, to tight a structure , material vaste, ---- if it is to difficult to assemble afterall , then what's most important here ; the form or the function --- place in a modern world -- why just that impossible form , sweet that's true, but realy what is it for what's the use of it , wouldn't a smart family house be a better challance, now things must not be called, their right name ?
Yes I talk about the object, the issue of this presentation, sorry.
Per i am not trashing you, you are sometimes a bit nieve to think these things [and words] only are your invention - sorry but I have been doing various forms of graphic programs since 1980 and computer programing since 73. you and 3dh did not invent these things -
get off the ownership fetish and prehaps more will take your comments more seriously -- its a macho thing only to talk about 'mine is bigger than yours!' but every time i read your comments thats what i walk away with.
"why you havn't yet got the same strange questions as I got when I published 3dh"
i guess this one isn't for me to answer. it probably has to do with TED's answer above.
"what thoughts you had about ensuring that all slots along a frame ,would fit into the opposite slots they must fill out"
this is a very good question, and one we are dealing with now. since none of the interesections are identical, nor perpendicular, yet all of the slots are cut at right angles to the surface material, we do have some tolerances to consider. at the moment we are proposing an oversized slot with a flexible neoprene gasket to fillout the tolerance, and provide a bit of friction. however, AKT (our engineers) are proposing a secondary jointing system at key points throughout the structure to assure rigidity. a series of tests are being done at the moment to determine if this is necessary. in terms of the fitting of the slots, that is something we are now in the process of testing through a series of 1:1 plywood mockups. as always, we will be posting our progress on the blog...
"then what's most important here ; the form or the function --- place in a modern world -- why just that impossible form , sweet that's true, but realy what is it for what's the use of it , wouldn't a smart family house be a better challance, now things must not be called, their right name ?"
a smart family house may very well be a better challenge, and a better social contribution. however, the competition was for a pavilion. i don't think we would have made it through the first round of the competition if we had proposed a smart family home. however, if the competition had been for a smart family home, i can be fairly certain we wouldn't be using the same structural concept which we are now.
"now from the pictures you all are quite young, and I guess you are from a generation who all has a computer , one connected to the web , and you are all interested in architecture then I wonder ; have you newer seen 3dh ?"
"And you don't pay a credit, case you can cheat your way out of it, Great Design."
it seems here that you are implying that we should be giving you some sort of credit for inventing or creating the system we are using. i'm sorry if you think that is the case, however our design process was not at all informed by any of your published studies on 3DH studies.
Guess I can answer you both , --- you see I am not jus an amature either, in fact I did spend the years at the architect acadamy I was accepted to join the nasional workshops for arts and crafts , that is sort of top of the ladder in this small contry, --- But when I published 3dh there was nothing the sort published before. My intension meeting all those architects and designers was to develob a system that made the structure, caldulated a totaly accurate framework ; please remember that in those times, polymeshes was top trend , but none of them realy worked , and what was missing was a structure to hold it in the air.
So I was very surprised the day I suddenly realised that you don't need all tree planes but only two planes , and none of these had to be any of the tradisional 3 planes --- this was brand new , newthinking and it delivered. Newer thought of before offcaurse, becaurse you need a computer to do it, and I poored hundreds of drawings and tonns of descriptions onto the web. --- See you giy's seem to have a very boxy impression about designers, -- I don't want to offend you, but in any other case, if a guy was first, if a designer was there and published , then you respect his credits.
My intension was newer a pavilion but to solve way more serious problems in construction, and I spended a decade develobing a simple system -- my attitude was to spend a decade ,build scale models of my boat designs that was what 3dh was first develobed for -- to suggest a solution to some of the very tradisionalmethods used for centuries , this was different, it was new and very unique, so I started revert to the building designs, and poored suggestions to explain how exiting this 3dh worked. Today I found out that if I say I didn't know that someone else poored dicumentation about some invention onto the web, published in a happy spirit , then I can take credit for it --- even this guy can prove his intelectural rights by documented graphics and texts, then intelectural property according to the copyright defination do not work, if someone "didn't know", that is nice to know as there are a lot of brilliant idears I don't know, and not knowing them mean it's mine if I get the same idear ? Get the same idear even 10 years after someone else published to protect his credits ?
Anyway -- I dn't think you worked with this as long as I has, as if you had, you would have notised that so many other things need a structure, that can be manufactored dirctly from the 3D drawings, just by a push of the button , just like 3dh can; the potential in a great new way to put things together reaches further than the trivial problem of assembly slots --- houses, aeroplanes, furniture, buildings in any form and the foundations is no problem , -- that is some of the obvious uses I worked a decade to publish, not just a single object, but a general solution to what other architects at the acadamy complained about , when they realised the limitations with these polymesh structures.
Guess you got my points --- I knew a few of the realy great danish designers, realy why shuld I brag ; and I know each one of the designers and artists I know , respected my way to work , I guess you also can realise, that it is just as great a piece of design, to develob a new structural method, than any piece of furniture is, that it can even expand the visions in a single piece of design, to spend halve a life, first being mad about computers and CAD, after being a profesional craftsman knowing my tools and knowing the materials, see only the top are allowed the nasional workshops, and that alone shuld tell you , that Per Corell is no amature.
So I ask you again -- what do you gain , case the structure for your pavilion finaly turn out a full blown 3dh, by not crediting the guy who seriously and profesionaly worked with this, to make the delivery ?
Are you doing arts, architecture or design a faviour that way, please understand my frustation , you see if you end up with what is a 3dh , then it's like copying a book and publishing it as yours, maybe not intirely but I guess you understand me , when I tell you that this delivery realy have been a suffer for me for my family, and all I ask is a bit honesty just a bit credit, -- now I can document it and not I can point to a bit further visions with a brand new, newer seen before, and ideal for computers method.
have you read the text, per? this is NOT a 3dh story. the modeling is different, the structure is different, and the material is different.
about the only potential similarities are that it was generated using computer tools and they learned that a framework of interlocking pieces was an efficient way to make a structure. not proprietary stuff, as it's been solved before in different ways. i mean, i learned about the strengths and efficiencies of interlocking structures in physics class in the 80s.
it may be that you came up with something very original with reference to simple structures about 20 yrs ago but, independently -without reference to your work - many others have caught up and moved on. in some cases, the ideas have succeeded; in others they've been determined not to suit the way the construction industry works. (something over which architects have very little control.)
you need to leave these guys alone. it's not stealing if a bunch of people come to similar conclusions independently. especially if their ways of getting to those conclusions are along very different paths.
you need to find someone who can turn your system into something real/material in order to prove it and sell it. but don't tear down others who have found their path to realization.
I see no reson to repeat what I wrote above, but it allway's come down to this --- you think for some reson that this is about "mine are bigger" ; this is your picture not mine, for me it has been about hard serious work, to produce a solution with wider visions than just that, --- you put forth claims and do not document them and at the same time you think I think and behave as you, that my intensions are what would be yours, nothing is further from reality, your agenda still fail my emagination, I don't know what screwed picture you has about me, but cirtainly you has one, sad though, that reading all these words, is not making you revise your boxy impression of me as person or about my intensions ; you see there was newer any "mine are bigger" attitude in my happy sharing of this new visionary method, so what you see , is a very twisted picture, --- offcaurse you don't document your claims , all you claim is that I did not invent 3dh , then who did ???
No I can see this is not a 3dh story --- but seriously I fear the problems that they will encounter trying to assemble these frames , unless offcaurse they conform with 3dh as described and documented, --- that mean protected by copyright and intelectural convensions, Now what seem to be most important here ; the form or the assembly method ?
If the assembly method are , then there will be huge problems as the overlap slots from the pictures realy seem to be all varying directions, then what piece of design will it end up to be, --- surely I can see the visions are not as what you claim many others has allready done (without documenting that ) --- to provide a structure for those Solid models , the structure no one seemed to give a thought , I just fear that such complicated a structure that nothing but a 3dh can Deliver.
Steven I am sorry to say and it is not to offend --- but you has a very boxy imagination about designers, you seem not to realise that you has to document when you say many others started out, working for a decade to Deliver an automated structure, that will fit and support any computer drawn 3D project --- but maybe you don't realise how different designers are, and your picture of me just don't conform with how you expect designers to be, and therefore, even you shuld know these property and credit issues give me the rights, --- I mean take the words from anyone that they did not se this on the web, use that to corrupt anything the only little credit unboxy designers have to earn their well proven credit, --- steven I would like you to emagine you yourself spended a decade develobing something, and then someone just say "I didn't know that" --- emagine you write a book, and someone copy halve of it, and say "I did not see that before" -- would you trust his words, or would you trust the clear copyright and intelectural rights you earn, just by publishing.
Let others claim those credits, I just wonder who was working on a system as 3dh back then -- I did not find any. And in the tims since I havn't found any.
you always claim everyone is stealing your ideas including these guys which they are not -
if your software is licensed and someone has used it illegalily for commercial gain - then fair enough go after them.
if your detail is internationally copywrited or patented and you think they have infringed on that patented go after them in a court of law.
but you are suggesting here and elseware we are taking your exclusive ideas when something looks a bit like yours -
you dont own them, you dont have the copywrite or patent - you didnt invent them -
your web site says that " the concept was developed 12 years ago where I was first authorized application developer with the AutoCAD platform. "
so that puts it +/- 1995 which is late cad when one is talking A Critical History of Computer Graphics and Animation and if im not mistaken the work you did as an employee of a company is owned by autodesk notPerCorrell -
But where are your documentations about others who develobed 3dh, who is it, they did not contact me,
Ted read the copyright conventions about intelectural property, -- yes I own it I invented it, and it is enough to just publish, but maybe you don't know that.
The first few years it did not work everything was wrong with it, and no one offcaurse invented such silli idear, This was the first few years after I first published.
"How will you keep out the rain ; I think one of you either Ted or Steve asked this as if he newer seen this 3dh before, and offcaurse he had not, as it did not work. Later it became a great fun asking silli questions, but this was also before it was copied, --- fact these first years was that those that today say I did not invent it and only say it newer prove I did not , even they can not prove against it, --- are the same who the first few years claimed it was impossible, that it did not work that it was impossible ; am I right ?
i've not yet seen anything that convinces me that 3dh, as you've shown and described it, DOES work. if you can realize even 1 built project with it, then you've got something to talk about.
these other guys, though, have something viable that MIGHT work. they are actually working to prove it and get it built.
per, formal copyrights have to be registered not just recorded - as you dont know who else in the world was working on it - its not just enough to publish it after the fact -especially when the technology is so widely used- i dont see 3dh on the listing -- as i said, if you developed the technology while contracted with Autodesk - they own license to the idea. the paid you for that idea.
unfortunately i do know intelectual property laws. good luck if thats what your basing your ownership on. some images on the web.
in 1980 i was working for a company developing IBM's Architectural + Engineering Services [AES] CAD built on unix base ibm RS9000
I am sorry this tread went this way --- but I think it is not me who realy are the problem.
Think about it ; I just happily published thinking it was a natural thing, knowing my rights when publishing and sharing openly.
It is strange, that in these discussions no one want to reconise the openness , my wish to share -- and offcaurse becaurse I share in a very important little niche -- recive the natural credit for offering you all .
And yes -- I am writing a book, it do deal with innovation and how you are met vith mistrust and "you think your's are bigger than mine" , when sharing the happy messeage, -- realy there was nothing evil in my contributionm and yes it is fun to go thru all those old mails and reconise what was impossible so no one would offcaurse invent that, suddenly as soon and allmost by date, became something I did not invent, it came with the first fat academic copying it , from that date it suddenly was not impossible and useless, from that date it became a picture of what happen when you happily share a great idea.
Again sorry the tread turned away from this great design into who ahd now newthinking are treaded and responded , but I has so many dirty mails that newer deal with the method but allway's are personal attacks, I has all those posts claiming it don't work and why, and from a particular day, all those posts, that describe their writers good, who claim for some wierd reson that I did not invent it. -- some would say "Per that's what you get for your naive mind" , but even today it surprises me, how ancious particualr people are to make sure I don't get my credit for what they first claim didn't work and therefore no one else would be so stupid to invent, and then seing the same people suddenly claim I did not invent it, becaurse they was in computing longer than I.
I wonder, see my book will be published on LULU , I will promise it will be entertaining.
Ted what's the reson you hang on to the end of the straw idelly fighting my rights ; what harm has I ever done you, what harm has my family ever done you ?
ok, so you admitted it isnt 3dh. then stop complaining/whining. it is perhaps what evolutionary biologists call convergent evolution at best, but i should think you havn't much of a leg to stand on regarding copyright.
personally i am delighted to see something like this being built. i find it also very cool to see how accomodatiion of the structural/geometry requirements of the engineers leads to the work becoming stronger, and more interesting. i think the project will be a very good learning experience...for all of us.
Is it just joy about cheating a nice guy that make you do this --- where did I calim othervise than I published, I wanted to give this great new idea away, but doing that an artist Ted, an artist are protected by these laws.
Still you leave me with a picture of some bully who for some wierd reson , want to harm me and my family -- you are and you know you are, if you was not a man I would have asked why you are so hysteric about harming this nice guy who just shared a brave idear, something so innovative, that these guy's with today's pavilion could profit from it.
But you keep grinning and in a rude way , try to harm me and my family by trying to destroy --- Ted I newer destroyed I shared, I newer was on the backof some nice guy to try ruin his work, or make sure the bread in his mouth , was rather thrown away, than given to the creditor, why is it you rather want to throw my credits away, making sure no one get it, Why Ted ?
"i think the project will be a very good learning experience...for all of us."
And I think that as presented only 3dh will deliver a structure that will assemble, then what if it end there, -- with a working build pavilion , but nessery in 3dh if it must assemble , and no other method conform the buildability if it end in 3dh and not in develobing a better method than 3dh , I see a problem there ; you all think 3dh are so easy but you make the foult to think that then it was also easy to develob. But belive me I searched for a simular method and there are none, --- but true, when inventing are so easy, then offcaurse they develob something obviously different than the simple 3dh something that don't look like 3dh , it's easy you see.
per - i have always supported you on archinect and still do - dont make mine or anyone's comment with regard to what your saying a personal attach on your family and livelyhood - i am not doing that and i dont think anyone on archinect has ever done so - you think we are all out to get you when its that we who all work in the design industry and understand design creativity -- we just strongly disagree with your stated opinion. if your using threads to promote and sell your stuff, just buy advertising - thats what its for.
any small thing that slightly looks like 3dh you lay claim to it as the original of the idea - and its not - its not about not giving you credit - you had nothing to do with it.
No I do not, but I am glad you finaly realised , It is easy to do the wrong thing I know but I try respect others work, their intension and reson.
Things would be much easier , and a line with "thank's for the inspiration" do not cost that much that it shuld unlenghten particular aincient architects theirs. But it mean that much, for a poor artist , an artist that don't see the difference in creativity between a book or a building, to recive that small credit.
You see I know it is I who move, I know my own skills good enough to know my limitations , seen my Graffity are they made by an amature, --- well they are as I didn't ever tried to paint before and offcaurse to make it vorse also there I bumped into inventing a new method, atleast one I havn't heard about sorry, but that's how I am put together, I can't go into a new project without turning it upside down and allway's it end with some good or less good, invention even my boatsbuilding, there the last boats I build was only a third the efford of what it othervise would be, I can not change that and I don't think I shuld.
But the creativity writing a book are no different than the crevaty projecting a house --- but today's oldfasion copyright and patent illusuion work against every progress it seem , and if I want to stay a challancing or newthinking individual, then it would not be fair either, if I has secretly taken out a patent would I ?
O live these ideals and no, it is not a good job -- esp when people are so tight up in boxes as even designers and architects seem to be ; I tell you the most silli discussions about computers I heard was among architects, architects who finaly grinned and agreaed that atleast we got a smart new pen ; and then the heck about newthinking or creating a new architecture.
Yestoday I invented a stealth birds forage it worked, today I will go and help those people as I do it every monday.
hi
first of all chinoxl63 (you could be alvin or alan)
congratulations for a job well done!
it would be interesting to follow you on your blog regarding the process of the realization of this concept. your process will be educational to those who wish to follow how a complex concept goes thru all the hurdles of having it built as reality. along the way im sure there will be some reduction but also some refinement, and its great!
on the topic of copyrights and architecture - just how does one draw the line? im kinda confused... does that mean all the boxy buildings now are 'copies' of the idea of mies or bunshaft or whoever 'invented' the highrise as stacked floorplates of extruded land area?
is it really about the idea itself? or is it about the refinement of an idea - the process of making the idea work contextually, spatially, functionally, etc processes? i believe that our world consists of refinements, there may be some sporadic 'eureka' moments, but most of it is really refinement.
i am not certain about the copyright. if it uses a different system then i imagine it is not really related. just as per says 3dh is not an egg-crate though there is a morphological similarity, this project is not 3dh, and for the same reasons. he claims it is not possible to build without 3dh orthogonality. the project as it is moving forward seems to suggest he is wrong. i am guessing the project will prove the latter. just a hunch.
but come on. we are talking about smart motivated people working in school research setting with smart engineers who know how to do cool stuff. the resources and time available to them to solve the problems (which also have a deadline) suggest to me it will get done, and progress will take the art a lot further than the rambling work per has managed to do so far. my guess is that per is sad to see his insight falling behind the times, which is why he is so beligirent and rude. soon he will be old-fashioned. must be scary for him.
Exactly --- and belive me I don't know why so many are obsessed about my rights or not -- I gave away 3dh just for the price of a small copyright notis , if anyone can get obsessed about that thay must be sick in their heads.
Ps;
cjw -- the copyright and intelectural property are about artistic creations that are unique, new and ,well the limits are quite wide , but in fact anything asking a creative process and published . Now I think 3dh are new , unique easy to reconise .
------------- It's like saying no auther has any right to what he write, becaurse he just used the alfabet and the words arn't they allready invented ?
Nonsense right , but that is in fact the essense here , but what would you say, if if this pavilion get build and it show to be so great, and then some chinese copy it , that must be ok if it is ok just to copy 3dh without leaving that small line of credit that is the cost.
Then the chinese just say , yes but it's made from bamboo would that save him. Or if he say "yes but the alfabet is not copyrighted , this guy just put something together from the alfabet so we can offcaurse just copy that book.
But what what vorry is when Ted say
"- you think we are all out to get you when its that we who all work in the design industry and understand design creativity -- we just strongly disagree with your stated opinion."
Then I ask what "stated opinion" guess Ted think I am a communist or something like that, just giving away something so unique just asking a single line of credit --- or what do Ted mean ; do he mean that "We in the industrie" are so offended by the fact, that the only way a gifted guy can profit everyone with a brave new idea, is to give it away, and then Ted take that as a political manifestation , some naive socialist who think "we" are all going to comform to those silli copyright and intelectural property rules --- please tell me Ted , what stated opinions are you talking about.
But you took 3DH from the structural systems of aeroplane wings and boat hulls. Why don't YOU give credit to that? Why do you think that the [C]Space Pavillion would be even remotely based on your sloppy renderings? Does it even occur to you that they could also be inspired by aeroplane wing structures? Sorry Per, but your constant hijacking of threads and paranoia is getting both extremely irritating and worrying.
What valid question , I has nothing against valid questions I just havn't seen any from you ;
"But you took 3DH from the structural systems of aeroplane wings and boat hulls."
That's not a valid question it you shputing out you know not even the basics.
"Why don't YOU give credit to that? " that is not a valid question either, it could be said by a drunk plumber with no clue whatsoever.
"Why do you think that the [C]Space Pavillion would be even remotely based on your sloppy renderings? "
Is that one or two questions , would you even become clever by an answer.
"Does it even occur to you that they could also be inspired by aeroplane wing structures?"
Have you seen any, as if so I think I am the one asking for your documentation, but this is not what it is about as you can not give any documentation about 3dh used to build aeroplanes, so when you havn't , why that silli question ?
"Sorry Per, but your constant hijacking of threads and paranoia is getting both extremely irritating and worrying."
Is that one of the questions you claim I do not answer, well then allow me not to answer -- as the only questions I didn't answer was of that type of questions , totaly irelevant .
And don't that just prove you didn't inderstand anything, that you did not read any answers , a-f I guess this is your angle towerds architecture and design , model aeroplanes.
Try read the article published in a chinese architecture magazin , I can offer the english text that was translated into chinese ;
[C]Space Pavilion Blog launched...
Hi,
My colleague and myself have recently won a competition to design a temporary pavilion in London at the AA.
Just wanted to share a link to our blog, which will document the entire process of designing, developing, and constructing this structure.
http://cspacepavilion.blogspot.com
very beautiful..
all i have to say is "you filistines shuld use the advaanced 3dh system to build these thing"
And here I thought I was just being crazy.
that is really nice work. incredibly envious.
btw, what software did you use? and can it be used to finish or dies it have to be transferred to other platform for actual fabrication?
apologies if that is a stupid question.
Very interesting project, how did you do it --- I mean when I realised the pover of 3dh I tried and tried to find fonds for just a small small project ,to show a bit different attitude towerds how the computer was and are used.--- then what you display with this is not that far from some of the structures I tried out with 3dh .
--- I knew 3dh would mean a revolution in construction by going from 3D model to calculated assembly framework, to production ; that's what I called direct link production back then in 1998 , but even the houses had both roof and walls and was build in a brand new way, newer seen before and had an honest aproach to design, computers, and production, --- then it was not possible to raise one danish krone for my project, that's why I ask , how did you get inspired, how did you raise the money, what is the porpus of these curves --- I seen something back then that was also spirals but these was surface polymesh dings, impossible things to build or atleast very different from the primitive 3dh attitude that would obviously have been a time saver in your project.
Your project seem to go around 3dh ,in any way avoid the instant delivery and yet, no one here made the response I got ; "don't you think it will be a problem with the rain", and no one claimed "this can not work and it look like Nervi" or tried make you a fool ; even it somehow look a bit 3dh'ish ---- how did you maneage that, how did you maneage the same overlap slots that specialists in this fora say is Impossible ?
Thanks for the comments everyone.
The entire project is being designed and developed through Rhino, we are hoping to output for fabrication directly from our Rhino files as well.
The application of the rib structure is a response to the material constraints of the competition. We are in no means implying that this particular construction method is the perfect solution to every project, but it works for us in this instance.
The competition is sponsored by Fibre-C, which is a fibre reinforced concrete sheet material. The aim of the project is to use a flat, typically non-structural cladding material, as both structure and skin describing a continuous complex curvature topological form.
This form come as a response to incorporating the functional and programmatic constraints of what a temporary pavilion is, or could be, into a single and continuous formal gesture...while balancing those gestures with a sense of ambiguity. It's an interesting question, "what is a pavilion?". Is it a circulation space? A gathering place? A shelter? A place for sitting? A place for standing? Rather than try to define the form through the functions, we are allowing the form to define the functions. The deck becomes furnishing, which becomes counter, which becomes wall, which becomes roof, which goes back to wall, and returns to floor deck. Yet the lines are blurred, and left ambiguous. The lattice like structure encloses, but remains open.
This continuous skin is then sliced with a series of planes, which we know can be fabricated from flat panels. These sections are limited to dimensions of 5m X 1.2m, as that is the standard sheet size for fibre-c. The spacing of the gaps which break the continuity of the ribs is predicated on this module. The rib profiles are unrolled, nested, and cut by water-jet from these standard sheets of 13mm thick fibre reinforced concrete.
All of the ribs are completely planar, but absolutely none of them are parrallel, thus meaning we have in the neighbourhood of 2000 unique joints. This is something we are contending with at the moment. If you go to the blog you can see some examples of the competition details. We are currently developing and testing a series of joints with our structural engineers AKT. The depth of profiles, joints and overlap are all being analyzed at the moment. More to come on that later...
As a temporary pavilion, and one intended to be re-assembled, we are hoping to avoid any mechanical or bonded fixings. As such, issues such as waterproofing were not necessary to be considered.
All of the funding for the project is being provided by the competition sponsors, organizers, and consultants (Rieder Co, Zaha Hadid Architects, Architectural Association, Adams Kara Taylor).
To follow the rest of the process of delivery for this pavilion, please check for updates on our blog - http://cspacepavilion.blogspot.com
-a.
Thank you for a most entlightning answer --- there still are a few details I wonder ; offcaurse why you havn't yet got the same strange questions as I got when I published 3dh , but my vorry is what thoughts you had about assembling the frames, they seem to be assembled basicly the same way as 3dh with an overlap notch, and that issue are crittical , as if that slot don't follow the exact diredtion --- a chareteristic for 3dh ,in fact it describe 3dh that these slots are all same direction othervise the framework can not be assembled naturly --- what I wonder, is what thoughts you had about ensuring that all slots along a frame ,would fit into the opposite slots they must fill out .
That was one question, I just have one more ; now from the pictures you all are quite young, and I guess you are from a generation who all has a computer , one connected to the web , and you are all interested in architecture then I wonder ; have you newer seen 3dh ?
They've got rubber gaskets at the slot, Per.
i know for certain, Per, looks are deceiving - they are about 50 y.o. --they dont have computers and are doing this by hand - thats what they do at the AAdrl- nice hand drawing lads!
anyone who has made the most simpliest of laser cut egg crate models understand the importants of the slot - i am sure they get it.
From the graphics .... I am not so sure,
"anyone who has made the most simpliest of laser cut egg crate models understand the importants of the slot - i am sure they get it."
There are something else I don't get --- you see when I started publishing about 3dh, then the first two years, there was no one who mentioned then name egg-create , at that time there was a firm who delivered some very primitive programs , they also sold some n.c. mashines , the programs was so called unfolding programs but when I tried them up against the serie of unfolding tools I wrote, I seriously understood what they wrote about unfolding the way they delivered, or had to deliver as it was smart to be able to unfold, sadly their programs could only "unfold" very simple objects ,where my programs acturly worked.
Later , years later they also started to prpmote something they called egg-create, years after I published 3dh that is. And what they started to promote, I guess to offer some tools for those who would buy their mashines , seriously misunderstood the intire 3dh concept.
Now offcaurse it is cheaper to deliver simple programs, it is also --- still I don't know why you keep bullying me with your egg-create pony , you see I also try make my bread on my skills to develob and newthink these issues and, and realy you do not gain anything, by stabbing my credits , and for what reson ?
It's as if a particular group here in this fora , find an enourmous amusement in hitting some nice guy with brute harasment, somehow even they don't earn one credit, sort of amuse themself by either posting dirty mails or amuse themself by "for fun" destroying my chance to make the credit develobing 3dh before anyone ever got that idear, --- so I want to ask you , even you found this egg-create somewhere I know where, then without informing anything about it, then you happily uses it --- and might I ask, with some sort of joy or ?? --- you kind of back up behind that group who would hate to see the one who develobed this 3dh get his credit --- I ask you , what fun do you feel in knowing you help rob some guy his credit , what fun are there in it, is your picture of me, realy so twisted, that just becaurse you seen some n.c. company suggest something that is not 3dh but a flat assembly with halve notches, then that give you the right to help poison my claims for credit.
I don't understand itm you give no documentation about this egg-create, a but anyway --- and I am sorry to say so, but realy I feel you are just pissing on my rights.
And somewhere I also think that pissing on my rights are the only reson you answered those few lines, am I right ?
Guess I better exchouse -- what right do I has to interfere in a tread such as this, a positive happy messeage, an exiting ptoject, and I know no one here will bother issues as credits, it is such an expense to give these, even you don't try claim them, it's better that the credit are vasted sorry, I am to blame with all my documenting when 3dh was first published, and yes offcaurse the fora profit most, refusing what's called intelectural property and sure, my family need no food.
Guess this can also be taken as an exchouse of my complaining that artists shuld at all recive any credits, as anyone know new thinking and inventing is not something you do, you "find" it, true ?
And you don't pay a credit, case you can cheat your way out of it, Great Design.
Sorry !
Also there are other angles to this structure than if it can be build or not, I see what 3dh allway's been acused of, to tight a structure , material vaste, ---- if it is to difficult to assemble afterall , then what's most important here ; the form or the function --- place in a modern world -- why just that impossible form , sweet that's true, but realy what is it for what's the use of it , wouldn't a smart family house be a better challance, now things must not be called, their right name ?
Yes I talk about the object, the issue of this presentation, sorry.
Today I invented a stealth birds forage .
Sorry but I can't even publish it, it's stealth.
Hi
Per i am not trashing you, you are sometimes a bit nieve to think these things [and words] only are your invention - sorry but I have been doing various forms of graphic programs since 1980 and computer programing since 73. you and 3dh did not invent these things -
get off the ownership fetish and prehaps more will take your comments more seriously -- its a macho thing only to talk about 'mine is bigger than yours!' but every time i read your comments thats what i walk away with.
a few responses:
"why you havn't yet got the same strange questions as I got when I published 3dh"
i guess this one isn't for me to answer. it probably has to do with TED's answer above.
"what thoughts you had about ensuring that all slots along a frame ,would fit into the opposite slots they must fill out"
this is a very good question, and one we are dealing with now. since none of the interesections are identical, nor perpendicular, yet all of the slots are cut at right angles to the surface material, we do have some tolerances to consider. at the moment we are proposing an oversized slot with a flexible neoprene gasket to fillout the tolerance, and provide a bit of friction. however, AKT (our engineers) are proposing a secondary jointing system at key points throughout the structure to assure rigidity. a series of tests are being done at the moment to determine if this is necessary. in terms of the fitting of the slots, that is something we are now in the process of testing through a series of 1:1 plywood mockups. as always, we will be posting our progress on the blog...
"then what's most important here ; the form or the function --- place in a modern world -- why just that impossible form , sweet that's true, but realy what is it for what's the use of it , wouldn't a smart family house be a better challance, now things must not be called, their right name ?"
a smart family house may very well be a better challenge, and a better social contribution. however, the competition was for a pavilion. i don't think we would have made it through the first round of the competition if we had proposed a smart family home. however, if the competition had been for a smart family home, i can be fairly certain we wouldn't be using the same structural concept which we are now.
"now from the pictures you all are quite young, and I guess you are from a generation who all has a computer , one connected to the web , and you are all interested in architecture then I wonder ; have you newer seen 3dh ?"
"And you don't pay a credit, case you can cheat your way out of it, Great Design."
it seems here that you are implying that we should be giving you some sort of credit for inventing or creating the system we are using. i'm sorry if you think that is the case, however our design process was not at all informed by any of your published studies on 3DH studies.
Guess I can answer you both , --- you see I am not jus an amature either, in fact I did spend the years at the architect acadamy I was accepted to join the nasional workshops for arts and crafts , that is sort of top of the ladder in this small contry, --- But when I published 3dh there was nothing the sort published before. My intension meeting all those architects and designers was to develob a system that made the structure, caldulated a totaly accurate framework ; please remember that in those times, polymeshes was top trend , but none of them realy worked , and what was missing was a structure to hold it in the air.
So I was very surprised the day I suddenly realised that you don't need all tree planes but only two planes , and none of these had to be any of the tradisional 3 planes --- this was brand new , newthinking and it delivered. Newer thought of before offcaurse, becaurse you need a computer to do it, and I poored hundreds of drawings and tonns of descriptions onto the web. --- See you giy's seem to have a very boxy impression about designers, -- I don't want to offend you, but in any other case, if a guy was first, if a designer was there and published , then you respect his credits.
My intension was newer a pavilion but to solve way more serious problems in construction, and I spended a decade develobing a simple system -- my attitude was to spend a decade ,build scale models of my boat designs that was what 3dh was first develobed for -- to suggest a solution to some of the very tradisionalmethods used for centuries , this was different, it was new and very unique, so I started revert to the building designs, and poored suggestions to explain how exiting this 3dh worked. Today I found out that if I say I didn't know that someone else poored dicumentation about some invention onto the web, published in a happy spirit , then I can take credit for it --- even this guy can prove his intelectural rights by documented graphics and texts, then intelectural property according to the copyright defination do not work, if someone "didn't know", that is nice to know as there are a lot of brilliant idears I don't know, and not knowing them mean it's mine if I get the same idear ? Get the same idear even 10 years after someone else published to protect his credits ?
Anyway -- I dn't think you worked with this as long as I has, as if you had, you would have notised that so many other things need a structure, that can be manufactored dirctly from the 3D drawings, just by a push of the button , just like 3dh can; the potential in a great new way to put things together reaches further than the trivial problem of assembly slots --- houses, aeroplanes, furniture, buildings in any form and the foundations is no problem , -- that is some of the obvious uses I worked a decade to publish, not just a single object, but a general solution to what other architects at the acadamy complained about , when they realised the limitations with these polymesh structures.
Guess you got my points --- I knew a few of the realy great danish designers, realy why shuld I brag ; and I know each one of the designers and artists I know , respected my way to work , I guess you also can realise, that it is just as great a piece of design, to develob a new structural method, than any piece of furniture is, that it can even expand the visions in a single piece of design, to spend halve a life, first being mad about computers and CAD, after being a profesional craftsman knowing my tools and knowing the materials, see only the top are allowed the nasional workshops, and that alone shuld tell you , that Per Corell is no amature.
So I ask you again -- what do you gain , case the structure for your pavilion finaly turn out a full blown 3dh, by not crediting the guy who seriously and profesionaly worked with this, to make the delivery ?
Are you doing arts, architecture or design a faviour that way, please understand my frustation , you see if you end up with what is a 3dh , then it's like copying a book and publishing it as yours, maybe not intirely but I guess you understand me , when I tell you that this delivery realy have been a suffer for me for my family, and all I ask is a bit honesty just a bit credit, -- now I can document it and not I can point to a bit further visions with a brand new, newer seen before, and ideal for computers method.
chinoXL63 -- fess up! you took it right?
also make certain you credit god because if i am not mistaken, aren't those HIS people in your rendering?
shame on you!
i'm done talking about 3DH. if there are any other comments regarding the project, i'm open to discussion.
have you read the text, per? this is NOT a 3dh story. the modeling is different, the structure is different, and the material is different.
about the only potential similarities are that it was generated using computer tools and they learned that a framework of interlocking pieces was an efficient way to make a structure. not proprietary stuff, as it's been solved before in different ways. i mean, i learned about the strengths and efficiencies of interlocking structures in physics class in the 80s.
it may be that you came up with something very original with reference to simple structures about 20 yrs ago but, independently -without reference to your work - many others have caught up and moved on. in some cases, the ideas have succeeded; in others they've been determined not to suit the way the construction industry works. (something over which architects have very little control.)
you need to leave these guys alone. it's not stealing if a bunch of people come to similar conclusions independently. especially if their ways of getting to those conclusions are along very different paths.
you need to find someone who can turn your system into something real/material in order to prove it and sell it. but don't tear down others who have found their path to realization.
TED ;
I see no reson to repeat what I wrote above, but it allway's come down to this --- you think for some reson that this is about "mine are bigger" ; this is your picture not mine, for me it has been about hard serious work, to produce a solution with wider visions than just that, --- you put forth claims and do not document them and at the same time you think I think and behave as you, that my intensions are what would be yours, nothing is further from reality, your agenda still fail my emagination, I don't know what screwed picture you has about me, but cirtainly you has one, sad though, that reading all these words, is not making you revise your boxy impression of me as person or about my intensions ; you see there was newer any "mine are bigger" attitude in my happy sharing of this new visionary method, so what you see , is a very twisted picture, --- offcaurse you don't document your claims , all you claim is that I did not invent 3dh , then who did ???
No I can see this is not a 3dh story --- but seriously I fear the problems that they will encounter trying to assemble these frames , unless offcaurse they conform with 3dh as described and documented, --- that mean protected by copyright and intelectural convensions, Now what seem to be most important here ; the form or the assembly method ?
If the assembly method are , then there will be huge problems as the overlap slots from the pictures realy seem to be all varying directions, then what piece of design will it end up to be, --- surely I can see the visions are not as what you claim many others has allready done (without documenting that ) --- to provide a structure for those Solid models , the structure no one seemed to give a thought , I just fear that such complicated a structure that nothing but a 3dh can Deliver.
Steven I am sorry to say and it is not to offend --- but you has a very boxy imagination about designers, you seem not to realise that you has to document when you say many others started out, working for a decade to Deliver an automated structure, that will fit and support any computer drawn 3D project --- but maybe you don't realise how different designers are, and your picture of me just don't conform with how you expect designers to be, and therefore, even you shuld know these property and credit issues give me the rights, --- I mean take the words from anyone that they did not se this on the web, use that to corrupt anything the only little credit unboxy designers have to earn their well proven credit, --- steven I would like you to emagine you yourself spended a decade develobing something, and then someone just say "I didn't know that" --- emagine you write a book, and someone copy halve of it, and say "I did not see that before" -- would you trust his words, or would you trust the clear copyright and intelectural rights you earn, just by publishing.
Let others claim those credits, I just wonder who was working on a system as 3dh back then -- I did not find any. And in the tims since I havn't found any.
Per -
you always claim everyone is stealing your ideas including these guys which they are not -
if your software is licensed and someone has used it illegalily for commercial gain - then fair enough go after them.
if your detail is internationally copywrited or patented and you think they have infringed on that patented go after them in a court of law.
but you are suggesting here and elseware we are taking your exclusive ideas when something looks a bit like yours -
you dont own them, you dont have the copywrite or patent - you didnt invent them -
your web site says that " the concept was developed 12 years ago where I was first authorized application developer with the AutoCAD platform. "
so that puts it +/- 1995 which is late cad when one is talking A Critical History of Computer Graphics and Animation and if im not mistaken the work you did as an employee of a company is owned by autodesk notPerCorrell -
Ted , I think I don't know as much as you , as you started with CAD in 1980 ;
http://mbinfo.mbdesign.net/CAD1980.htm
See I was only there in 89 with _AutoCAD ver. 2.6
But where are your documentations about others who develobed 3dh, who is it, they did not contact me,
Ted read the copyright conventions about intelectural property, -- yes I own it I invented it, and it is enough to just publish, but maybe you don't know that.
The first few years it did not work everything was wrong with it, and no one offcaurse invented such silli idear, This was the first few years after I first published.
"How will you keep out the rain ; I think one of you either Ted or Steve asked this as if he newer seen this 3dh before, and offcaurse he had not, as it did not work. Later it became a great fun asking silli questions, but this was also before it was copied, --- fact these first years was that those that today say I did not invent it and only say it newer prove I did not , even they can not prove against it, --- are the same who the first few years claimed it was impossible, that it did not work that it was impossible ; am I right ?
i've not yet seen anything that convinces me that 3dh, as you've shown and described it, DOES work. if you can realize even 1 built project with it, then you've got something to talk about.
these other guys, though, have something viable that MIGHT work. they are actually working to prove it and get it built.
let's give them their thread back.
per, formal copyrights have to be registered not just recorded - as you dont know who else in the world was working on it - its not just enough to publish it after the fact -especially when the technology is so widely used- i dont see 3dh on the listing -- as i said, if you developed the technology while contracted with Autodesk - they own license to the idea. the paid you for that idea.
unfortunately i do know intelectual property laws. good luck if thats what your basing your ownership on. some images on the web.
in 1980 i was working for a company developing IBM's Architectural + Engineering Services [AES] CAD built on unix base ibm RS9000
I am sorry this tread went this way --- but I think it is not me who realy are the problem.
Think about it ; I just happily published thinking it was a natural thing, knowing my rights when publishing and sharing openly.
It is strange, that in these discussions no one want to reconise the openness , my wish to share -- and offcaurse becaurse I share in a very important little niche -- recive the natural credit for offering you all .
And yes -- I am writing a book, it do deal with innovation and how you are met vith mistrust and "you think your's are bigger than mine" , when sharing the happy messeage, -- realy there was nothing evil in my contributionm and yes it is fun to go thru all those old mails and reconise what was impossible so no one would offcaurse invent that, suddenly as soon and allmost by date, became something I did not invent, it came with the first fat academic copying it , from that date it suddenly was not impossible and useless, from that date it became a picture of what happen when you happily share a great idea.
Again sorry the tread turned away from this great design into who ahd now newthinking are treaded and responded , but I has so many dirty mails that newer deal with the method but allway's are personal attacks, I has all those posts claiming it don't work and why, and from a particular day, all those posts, that describe their writers good, who claim for some wierd reson that I did not invent it. -- some would say "Per that's what you get for your naive mind" , but even today it surprises me, how ancious particualr people are to make sure I don't get my credit for what they first claim didn't work and therefore no one else would be so stupid to invent, and then seing the same people suddenly claim I did not invent it, becaurse they was in computing longer than I.
I wonder, see my book will be published on LULU , I will promise it will be entertaining.
Ted what's the reson you hang on to the end of the straw idelly fighting my rights ; what harm has I ever done you, what harm has my family ever done you ?
ok, so you admitted it isnt 3dh. then stop complaining/whining. it is perhaps what evolutionary biologists call convergent evolution at best, but i should think you havn't much of a leg to stand on regarding copyright.
personally i am delighted to see something like this being built. i find it also very cool to see how accomodatiion of the structural/geometry requirements of the engineers leads to the work becoming stronger, and more interesting. i think the project will be a very good learning experience...for all of us.
Is it just joy about cheating a nice guy that make you do this --- where did I calim othervise than I published, I wanted to give this great new idea away, but doing that an artist Ted, an artist are protected by these laws.
Still you leave me with a picture of some bully who for some wierd reson , want to harm me and my family -- you are and you know you are, if you was not a man I would have asked why you are so hysteric about harming this nice guy who just shared a brave idear, something so innovative, that these guy's with today's pavilion could profit from it.
But you keep grinning and in a rude way , try to harm me and my family by trying to destroy --- Ted I newer destroyed I shared, I newer was on the backof some nice guy to try ruin his work, or make sure the bread in his mouth , was rather thrown away, than given to the creditor, why is it you rather want to throw my credits away, making sure no one get it, Why Ted ?
"i think the project will be a very good learning experience...for all of us."
And I think that as presented only 3dh will deliver a structure that will assemble, then what if it end there, -- with a working build pavilion , but nessery in 3dh if it must assemble , and no other method conform the buildability if it end in 3dh and not in develobing a better method than 3dh , I see a problem there ; you all think 3dh are so easy but you make the foult to think that then it was also easy to develob. But belive me I searched for a simular method and there are none, --- but true, when inventing are so easy, then offcaurse they develob something obviously different than the simple 3dh something that don't look like 3dh , it's easy you see.
per - i have always supported you on archinect and still do - dont make mine or anyone's comment with regard to what your saying a personal attach on your family and livelyhood - i am not doing that and i dont think anyone on archinect has ever done so - you think we are all out to get you when its that we who all work in the design industry and understand design creativity -- we just strongly disagree with your stated opinion. if your using threads to promote and sell your stuff, just buy advertising - thats what its for.
any small thing that slightly looks like 3dh you lay claim to it as the original of the idea - and its not - its not about not giving you credit - you had nothing to do with it.
No I do not, but I am glad you finaly realised , It is easy to do the wrong thing I know but I try respect others work, their intension and reson.
Things would be much easier , and a line with "thank's for the inspiration" do not cost that much that it shuld unlenghten particular aincient architects theirs. But it mean that much, for a poor artist , an artist that don't see the difference in creativity between a book or a building, to recive that small credit.
You see I know it is I who move, I know my own skills good enough to know my limitations , seen my Graffity are they made by an amature, --- well they are as I didn't ever tried to paint before and offcaurse to make it vorse also there I bumped into inventing a new method, atleast one I havn't heard about sorry, but that's how I am put together, I can't go into a new project without turning it upside down and allway's it end with some good or less good, invention even my boatsbuilding, there the last boats I build was only a third the efford of what it othervise would be, I can not change that and I don't think I shuld.
But the creativity writing a book are no different than the crevaty projecting a house --- but today's oldfasion copyright and patent illusuion work against every progress it seem , and if I want to stay a challancing or newthinking individual, then it would not be fair either, if I has secretly taken out a patent would I ?
O live these ideals and no, it is not a good job -- esp when people are so tight up in boxes as even designers and architects seem to be ; I tell you the most silli discussions about computers I heard was among architects, architects who finaly grinned and agreaed that atleast we got a smart new pen ; and then the heck about newthinking or creating a new architecture.
Yestoday I invented a stealth birds forage it worked, today I will go and help those people as I do it every monday.
another thread stolen by PER and his life frustrations... ppl dont even reply to him... is a waste of time... just let him bark to the sky as always..
hi
first of all chinoxl63 (you could be alvin or alan)
congratulations for a job well done!
it would be interesting to follow you on your blog regarding the process of the realization of this concept. your process will be educational to those who wish to follow how a complex concept goes thru all the hurdles of having it built as reality. along the way im sure there will be some reduction but also some refinement, and its great!
on the topic of copyrights and architecture - just how does one draw the line? im kinda confused... does that mean all the boxy buildings now are 'copies' of the idea of mies or bunshaft or whoever 'invented' the highrise as stacked floorplates of extruded land area?
is it really about the idea itself? or is it about the refinement of an idea - the process of making the idea work contextually, spatially, functionally, etc processes? i believe that our world consists of refinements, there may be some sporadic 'eureka' moments, but most of it is really refinement.
what do you guys think?
i am not certain about the copyright. if it uses a different system then i imagine it is not really related. just as per says 3dh is not an egg-crate though there is a morphological similarity, this project is not 3dh, and for the same reasons. he claims it is not possible to build without 3dh orthogonality. the project as it is moving forward seems to suggest he is wrong. i am guessing the project will prove the latter. just a hunch.
but come on. we are talking about smart motivated people working in school research setting with smart engineers who know how to do cool stuff. the resources and time available to them to solve the problems (which also have a deadline) suggest to me it will get done, and progress will take the art a lot further than the rambling work per has managed to do so far. my guess is that per is sad to see his insight falling behind the times, which is why he is so beligirent and rude. soon he will be old-fashioned. must be scary for him.
Exactly --- and belive me I don't know why so many are obsessed about my rights or not -- I gave away 3dh just for the price of a small copyright notis , if anyone can get obsessed about that thay must be sick in their heads.
Ps;
cjw -- the copyright and intelectural property are about artistic creations that are unique, new and ,well the limits are quite wide , but in fact anything asking a creative process and published . Now I think 3dh are new , unique easy to reconise .
------------- It's like saying no auther has any right to what he write, becaurse he just used the alfabet and the words arn't they allready invented ?
Nonsense right , but that is in fact the essense here , but what would you say, if if this pavilion get build and it show to be so great, and then some chinese copy it , that must be ok if it is ok just to copy 3dh without leaving that small line of credit that is the cost.
Then the chinese just say , yes but it's made from bamboo would that save him. Or if he say "yes but the alfabet is not copyrighted , this guy just put something together from the alfabet so we can offcaurse just copy that book.
But what what vorry is when Ted say
"- you think we are all out to get you when its that we who all work in the design industry and understand design creativity -- we just strongly disagree with your stated opinion."
Then I ask what "stated opinion" guess Ted think I am a communist or something like that, just giving away something so unique just asking a single line of credit --- or what do Ted mean ; do he mean that "We in the industrie" are so offended by the fact, that the only way a gifted guy can profit everyone with a brave new idea, is to give it away, and then Ted take that as a political manifestation , some naive socialist who think "we" are all going to comform to those silli copyright and intelectural property rules --- please tell me Ted , what stated opinions are you talking about.
But you took 3DH from the structural systems of aeroplane wings and boat hulls. Why don't YOU give credit to that? Why do you think that the [C]Space Pavillion would be even remotely based on your sloppy renderings? Does it even occur to you that they could also be inspired by aeroplane wing structures? Sorry Per, but your constant hijacking of threads and paranoia is getting both extremely irritating and worrying.
(1927)
Method for making models using simultaneous construction and CAD/CAM techniques (1985)
please explain how 3DH brings these two ideas further...
Please a-f we all try to profit from this --- you are obviously not interested in that, so please stop that kindergarden arguments.
yeah right! that's also a quite childish way to avoid answering a valid question...
What valid question , I has nothing against valid questions I just havn't seen any from you ;
"But you took 3DH from the structural systems of aeroplane wings and boat hulls."
That's not a valid question it you shputing out you know not even the basics.
"Why don't YOU give credit to that? " that is not a valid question either, it could be said by a drunk plumber with no clue whatsoever.
"Why do you think that the [C]Space Pavillion would be even remotely based on your sloppy renderings? "
Is that one or two questions , would you even become clever by an answer.
"Does it even occur to you that they could also be inspired by aeroplane wing structures?"
Have you seen any, as if so I think I am the one asking for your documentation, but this is not what it is about as you can not give any documentation about 3dh used to build aeroplanes, so when you havn't , why that silli question ?
"Sorry Per, but your constant hijacking of threads and paranoia is getting both extremely irritating and worrying."
Is that one of the questions you claim I do not answer, well then allow me not to answer -- as the only questions I didn't answer was of that type of questions , totaly irelevant .
Ok, I'm glad we sorted that out. Everything is much more clear now.
And don't that just prove you didn't inderstand anything, that you did not read any answers , a-f I guess this is your angle towerds architecture and design , model aeroplanes.
Try read the article published in a chinese architecture magazin , I can offer the english text that was translated into chinese ;
http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/
http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/kineserier.jpg
Sorry a-f but I think your critic based on your model aeroplane hobby experience, is a bit irelevant.
sorry, chinoXL63. as much as i'd be interested in following this conversation, you can probably write it off. i'll bookmark your blog.
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