Let me just point out that if it takes a year to just start to get used to it, you haven't saved any money.
ArchiCAD has that ability to move fluidly between 2D and 3D in spades, as does Revit. And as a person with almost a year into the program I have to say that the little inefficient things that when someone says "oh, its not that much different" they're right in that in isolation they aren't, but only if you had to perform that operation once a day. But a lot of things you are used to doing quickly are frustratingly slow or inefficient in VW. Our firm (for whatever reason) does not have the Architect add-on, which I understand helps out a bit, but the program is not intuitive (1 year to learn) and seemingly there is a inverse relationship between how often you need to use the tool and how fast and intuitive it is.
But good luck.
And mini, thanks for the info on the pickup guides...
Well, funny enough, it turns out my first VW drawing actually has to be put into ACAD anyway (pref by monday!), so now after spending 2 weeks drawing it in VW i now get to play with it in ACAD.
That makes me, well, agitated when i could have drawn it in 10 minutes.
i don't know if i agree with you crowbert...i find VW to be both easy to learn and a very intuitive program in which to draw.
i see you've taken great umbrage with the lack of a stretch command...but maybe i don't understand exactly what you mean by stretch. your prerogative though, obviously.
i think as mini said above, it's great for small to medium practices, and we actually find on some jobs that it's being used to great success on master planning and CD's for large resort developments too. (outside of our office, that is...we're sub's)
the architect add-on makes a HUGE difference. i'm surprised that your office hasn't gone for that, especially if you guys are architects. we're not, but we use the arch module anyways, because it has a much more robust set of tools specific to building, detailing, and possibly more importantly, annotating.
the rendering capabilities leave a lot to be desired, though it's great and quick for study models as well as detailing sections of moderate scale. i use the live sectioning feature with much success on a regular basis...
version 2008 looks to improve upon both the 3d side and more importantly (for me anyways...) is the ability to run two-way worksheets, which for the work i do will be a huge time saver.
Both those sound great, and yeah, why we haven't done the architect add on is beyond me because it would most likely make things better. However, not having a stretch command is lousy. Also, since I am currently modifying dimensions ONE AT A TIME because dimensions are not together in a string, but are rather a series of individual dimensions is very aggravating when you need to manually adjust them, which you need to as they are not associative (Oh, I guess technically its associative, but as soon as you move anything, its association disappears - not very helpful). Its stuff like that which makes me loath this program.
The inability to select anything under the top most item, the byzantine pull down menus and how the info box only shows SOME of the variables (and the order switches around depending on what you're using!) - VW has a whole host of annoying little things makes using the program a chore. I don't know how much the Architect Add-on will fix, but its definitely not intuitive if it takes a year to start to figure things out like it has for mini and I. Even at the ridiculously low rate of $50/hr billing time, it only takes 40 saved hours to pay the difference in cost to ArchiCAD, and I know that I've wasted way more than that and I'm not even through with my year yet.
you can totally associate dimensions to stick to certain snaps and have them change IN REAL TIME as you change the object being dimensioned. could be a setting issue on your end...
do you work mostly in 2d or 3d?
in order to select anything other than the top most item, you simply need to grab the top most and Ctrl-B to send it to the back, and then select what you want.
you can also VERY EASILY create a custom script for commonly used selection commands...the one i use constantly is "Select All Magenta" and "Select all Dims" which help me quite a bit.
i guess when i say VW is intuitive, that's because it drafts much like Adobe photoshop and illustrator, so anyone who's had experience with those will usually find VW a pretty quick learn.
i still don't understand the stretch command issue...
and what do you mean about the order switching around on the Object Info Palette? Do you mean depending on what workspace you're using?
We do it all in 2D because 3D, without Architect anyway, sucks. Its even less useful than the 2D formats.
The stuff in back of other things is in back for a reason - but there are still times where it needs to be selected or adjusted. Also, if there's a group (of lets say door tags) and you area/crossing anywhere inside the building you select the group with all the door tags, even if you never cross any individual door tag! No other program does this - its just sloppy programming! Argh! And when you move things backwards and forwards, you move it relative to EVERYTHING ELSE ON THE DRAWING. Archicad, you move forward and back relative only to what its overlapping - VW you need to step forward or back 100x to every step in ArchiCAD. So if you need to adjust something that's only one layer down you have to move EVERYTHING its currently over the object to the back as well, and in the order they are in now. If you ever get a chance to use ArchiCAD, you'll see how inefficient VW is.
As far a info box dumbness, here's a quick example. When you have text, most (but not all) things show up in the info box, but when you have a dimension string selected you have to go up to the text pulldown menu to change anything relating to the text! Why not put that in the Info box? Again, if you use ArchiCAD, the Cmd-T popup window shows you EVERY VARIABLE and each one is in EXACTLY the same place throughout every tool. Once you figure out where something is in one tool, you can find it in EVERY tool. Why does VW seem to think memorizing 50 different protocols for 50 different tools is better than 1 protocol for everything?
Now ml, most architects learn to draft in cad software (and, like it or not, mostly AutoCAD) and use Illustrator to make LOLcats posters. In fact the insult we use is that its like drafting in Illustrator because Illustrator is not a CAD program. And any program which seems to go out of its way to turn off AutoCAD users should not be surprised when many people think its not intuitive.
I've been using AutoCAD, Rhino, Solidworks, 3D Studio Max, Illustrator and Photoshop for four or five years, and Im completely comfortable on Macs. But for the last 4 months Ive been using Vectorworks 2009 at work.
Its over complicated simply for the sake of complication. Its the least 'intuitive' program I've ever used. I spend more time swearing at my monitor than producing results.
I h a t e Vectorworks
Its a cad program for Macintosh, one of the few. If your familiar with 'Google Sketch up', its like Sketch-ups retarded big brother. Bigger, more powerful, but ultimately so retarded that he's hard to control. And people only tolerate him or say nice things about him out of pity.
you guys should all just accept the fact that your industry bet on the wrong horse. autocad is a piece of cold, hard donkey poo, but unfortunately for all us, a bunch of dipshits made it the standard.
I'm a longtime Vectorworks user, but I've lately been finding it to be super-idiotic. (For instance, if you build a model and cut sections through it, why do those sections only appear in a viewport rather than on a design layer, so it can't be subsequently viewported to other locations? And the section of the model has so many little errors that you basically have to redraw it anyway? And why is building 3D models so clunky and difficult? And why do only a few of the schedule functions work?)
Out of frustration, I downloaded a copy of ArchiCAD and it seems like a pretty amazing BIM program. Some of the simplicity of Vectorworks, but much more powerful and with none of the stupidity.
Does anyone here use ArchiCAD on a regular basis? Can you say anything about it?
I use both Vectorworks an Archicad and I am also teaching Autocad at a college and they each have their strengths. I gave up on Vectorworks in 3-d a long time ago. Archicad is better but you cannot, and I don't think that you can in Revit either, rotate an object in 3-d. This is huge and really sucks.
Vectorworks is great for smaller 2-d projects. Archicad is robust and like Revit is good for rectilinear stuff. My 2-d Vectorworks drawings look 10x better than what I can make from Autocad in the same amount of time. Autocad has a lot of unnecessary steps that cost $.
USe whatever you want. I don't care for Autocad so I'd rather use Vectorworks for 2-d stuff or even Archicad for 2-d stuff if it's a big project with multiple users.
Most schools have agreements with Autodesk that locks them in. We teach autodesk stuff but I don't use it professionally. I got a new build of BOA today that looks better. 5 years ago they were so far ahead. It's too bad that they have stood still.
in these hard economic times large institutions and corporations really could find it in their best interests look to alternatives and open source solutions to keep themselves viable and get ahead.
It is well known that I do vastly prefer ArchiCad to vectorworks. You can simply search the threads for my in depth comparison. To put the back & forth of which software is better download the demos, use the one that you picked up the quickest and produces the cleanest drawings because productivity is what it all boils down to.
Vectorworks
How much surface control do you need to create a metalstud wall?
Let me just point out that if it takes a year to just start to get used to it, you haven't saved any money.
ArchiCAD has that ability to move fluidly between 2D and 3D in spades, as does Revit. And as a person with almost a year into the program I have to say that the little inefficient things that when someone says "oh, its not that much different" they're right in that in isolation they aren't, but only if you had to perform that operation once a day. But a lot of things you are used to doing quickly are frustratingly slow or inefficient in VW. Our firm (for whatever reason) does not have the Architect add-on, which I understand helps out a bit, but the program is not intuitive (1 year to learn) and seemingly there is a inverse relationship between how often you need to use the tool and how fast and intuitive it is.
But good luck.
And mini, thanks for the info on the pickup guides...
Well, funny enough, it turns out my first VW drawing actually has to be put into ACAD anyway (pref by monday!), so now after spending 2 weeks drawing it in VW i now get to play with it in ACAD.
That makes me, well, agitated when i could have drawn it in 10 minutes.
i don't know if i agree with you crowbert...i find VW to be both easy to learn and a very intuitive program in which to draw.
i see you've taken great umbrage with the lack of a stretch command...but maybe i don't understand exactly what you mean by stretch. your prerogative though, obviously.
i think as mini said above, it's great for small to medium practices, and we actually find on some jobs that it's being used to great success on master planning and CD's for large resort developments too. (outside of our office, that is...we're sub's)
the architect add-on makes a HUGE difference. i'm surprised that your office hasn't gone for that, especially if you guys are architects. we're not, but we use the arch module anyways, because it has a much more robust set of tools specific to building, detailing, and possibly more importantly, annotating.
the rendering capabilities leave a lot to be desired, though it's great and quick for study models as well as detailing sections of moderate scale. i use the live sectioning feature with much success on a regular basis...
version 2008 looks to improve upon both the 3d side and more importantly (for me anyways...) is the ability to run two-way worksheets, which for the work i do will be a huge time saver.
Both those sound great, and yeah, why we haven't done the architect add on is beyond me because it would most likely make things better. However, not having a stretch command is lousy. Also, since I am currently modifying dimensions ONE AT A TIME because dimensions are not together in a string, but are rather a series of individual dimensions is very aggravating when you need to manually adjust them, which you need to as they are not associative (Oh, I guess technically its associative, but as soon as you move anything, its association disappears - not very helpful). Its stuff like that which makes me loath this program.
The inability to select anything under the top most item, the byzantine pull down menus and how the info box only shows SOME of the variables (and the order switches around depending on what you're using!) - VW has a whole host of annoying little things makes using the program a chore. I don't know how much the Architect Add-on will fix, but its definitely not intuitive if it takes a year to start to figure things out like it has for mini and I. Even at the ridiculously low rate of $50/hr billing time, it only takes 40 saved hours to pay the difference in cost to ArchiCAD, and I know that I've wasted way more than that and I'm not even through with my year yet.
you can totally associate dimensions to stick to certain snaps and have them change IN REAL TIME as you change the object being dimensioned. could be a setting issue on your end...
do you work mostly in 2d or 3d?
in order to select anything other than the top most item, you simply need to grab the top most and Ctrl-B to send it to the back, and then select what you want.
you can also VERY EASILY create a custom script for commonly used selection commands...the one i use constantly is "Select All Magenta" and "Select all Dims" which help me quite a bit.
i guess when i say VW is intuitive, that's because it drafts much like Adobe photoshop and illustrator, so anyone who's had experience with those will usually find VW a pretty quick learn.
i still don't understand the stretch command issue...
and what do you mean about the order switching around on the Object Info Palette? Do you mean depending on what workspace you're using?
We do it all in 2D because 3D, without Architect anyway, sucks. Its even less useful than the 2D formats.
The stuff in back of other things is in back for a reason - but there are still times where it needs to be selected or adjusted. Also, if there's a group (of lets say door tags) and you area/crossing anywhere inside the building you select the group with all the door tags, even if you never cross any individual door tag! No other program does this - its just sloppy programming! Argh! And when you move things backwards and forwards, you move it relative to EVERYTHING ELSE ON THE DRAWING. Archicad, you move forward and back relative only to what its overlapping - VW you need to step forward or back 100x to every step in ArchiCAD. So if you need to adjust something that's only one layer down you have to move EVERYTHING its currently over the object to the back as well, and in the order they are in now. If you ever get a chance to use ArchiCAD, you'll see how inefficient VW is.
As far a info box dumbness, here's a quick example. When you have text, most (but not all) things show up in the info box, but when you have a dimension string selected you have to go up to the text pulldown menu to change anything relating to the text! Why not put that in the Info box? Again, if you use ArchiCAD, the Cmd-T popup window shows you EVERY VARIABLE and each one is in EXACTLY the same place throughout every tool. Once you figure out where something is in one tool, you can find it in EVERY tool. Why does VW seem to think memorizing 50 different protocols for 50 different tools is better than 1 protocol for everything?
Now ml, most architects learn to draft in cad software (and, like it or not, mostly AutoCAD) and use Illustrator to make LOLcats posters. In fact the insult we use is that its like drafting in Illustrator because Illustrator is not a CAD program. And any program which seems to go out of its way to turn off AutoCAD users should not be surprised when many people think its not intuitive.
is what I mean when I say "stretch command". VW can scale things - not stretch them - unless you buy this add on tool.
I love Vectorworks.
I've been using AutoCAD, Rhino, Solidworks, 3D Studio Max, Illustrator and Photoshop for four or five years, and Im completely comfortable on Macs. But for the last 4 months Ive been using Vectorworks 2009 at work.
Its over complicated simply for the sake of complication. Its the least 'intuitive' program I've ever used. I spend more time swearing at my monitor than producing results.
I h a t e Vectorworks
what is vectorworks? never seen or heard of it.
Its a cad program for Macintosh, one of the few. If your familiar with 'Google Sketch up', its like Sketch-ups retarded big brother. Bigger, more powerful, but ultimately so retarded that he's hard to control. And people only tolerate him or say nice things about him out of pity.
I think that was an accurate personification. : )
you guys should all just accept the fact that your industry bet on the wrong horse. autocad is a piece of cold, hard donkey poo, but unfortunately for all us, a bunch of dipshits made it the standard.
AUTODESK = FAIL.
0_
\`. ___
\ \ / __>0
/\ / |/' /
/ \/ ` ,`'--.
/ /(___________)_ \
|/ //.-. .-.\\ \ \
0 // :@ ___ @: \\ \/
( o ^(___)^ o ) 0
\ \_______/ /
/\ '._______.'--.
\ /| |<_____> |
\ \__|<_____>____/|__
\____<_____>_______/
|<_____> |
|<_____> |
:<_____>____:
/ <_____> /|
/ <_____> / |
well that got totally fucked up. oh well, imagine the above to be a mocking ascii clown.
Did you make that in vectorworks mighty? Because it looks like you did...
nice one crowbert! i knew you'd be around here. you just can't resist!
i did make it in VW, but unfortunately couldn't STRETCH it into location.
hahaha
scale1d is your friend
I'm a longtime Vectorworks user, but I've lately been finding it to be super-idiotic. (For instance, if you build a model and cut sections through it, why do those sections only appear in a viewport rather than on a design layer, so it can't be subsequently viewported to other locations? And the section of the model has so many little errors that you basically have to redraw it anyway? And why is building 3D models so clunky and difficult? And why do only a few of the schedule functions work?)
Out of frustration, I downloaded a copy of ArchiCAD and it seems like a pretty amazing BIM program. Some of the simplicity of Vectorworks, but much more powerful and with none of the stupidity.
Does anyone here use ArchiCAD on a regular basis? Can you say anything about it?
farwest1,
I use both Vectorworks an Archicad and I am also teaching Autocad at a college and they each have their strengths. I gave up on Vectorworks in 3-d a long time ago. Archicad is better but you cannot, and I don't think that you can in Revit either, rotate an object in 3-d. This is huge and really sucks.
Vectorworks is great for smaller 2-d projects. Archicad is robust and like Revit is good for rectilinear stuff. My 2-d Vectorworks drawings look 10x better than what I can make from Autocad in the same amount of time. Autocad has a lot of unnecessary steps that cost $.
That's the way I see it.
make how do you feel about Intellicad(progecad bricscad) and rhinoceros?
farwest - in VW2009 i believe you can now put viewports on design layers.
You're right, mighty.
Anti-
USe whatever you want. I don't care for Autocad so I'd rather use Vectorworks for 2-d stuff or even Archicad for 2-d stuff if it's a big project with multiple users.
I don't mean in my use but in your teaching if they come up.
Most schools have agreements with Autodesk that locks them in. We teach autodesk stuff but I don't use it professionally. I got a new build of BOA today that looks better. 5 years ago they were so far ahead. It's too bad that they have stood still.
in these hard economic times large institutions and corporations really could find it in their best interests look to alternatives and open source solutions to keep themselves viable and get ahead.
BOA?
You can make models and do everything in 3-d or you can bring into 2-d. Mac only.
do you have any favorite FOSS tool for Linux by chance? Archimedes?
good that OSx86 project exists and that option is available
looking forward the the English to evaluate it.
It is well known that I do vastly prefer ArchiCad to vectorworks. You can simply search the threads for my in depth comparison. To put the back & forth of which software is better download the demos, use the one that you picked up the quickest and produces the cleanest drawings because productivity is what it all boils down to.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.