Well, if it helps, my life after tuition starts when I am 58.

Have you consolidated?

you can buy a winnebago/office with that money...

DAMMMMM is right dammson (how u doing mate).

I have well below that with both my undergrad and graduate studies combined, so I don't where where in the heck you are going that you need to incur 150 Gs for grad school???????????

I only incurred about 45K for grad school. Paid for everything and this was abroad as well, so u can imagine it was not cheap.

sup garp

Wow. That's quite a lot of debt. A friend of mine has around 100k, and it is absolutely a burden to her. She pays twice as much in loans as she does in rent, works tons of overtime to afford it, and doesn't travel. I can't imagine what more would be like.

exhibit A: columbia university. tuition: $36,000. univ. estimated cost of living/yr: $20,000. (x3)=$168,000.

of course this is not taking into account work-study programs, etc.

That's also assuming that you have not saved a penny towards your education, that you will not work in any fashion during the school year or work enough during summers to save, and that you are not accomplished enough to earn even a small scholarship.

why would you spend that kind of $$$ on Columbia anyways?

why would you spend that kind of $$$ on __________ anyways?

have fun i just got a statement today from one of my loans. yes from undergrad twenty years ago! i only owe 300 bucks on it.

Wow. Do not take out that much in debt. I have only half that debt, pay hundreds each month and can contribute next to nothing to my savings, am wondering where on earth I will ever find the money to buy a house, and kicking the shit out of 17-year-old-me for ever thinking it was gonna be alright to take on that much debt. Life after tuition for me begins at age 55. I will be paying for my kids' college education while still paying for my own. Nothing is worth that. It affects every decision you make in your post-collegiate life. Where will I live? (Wherever I can possibly afford a house. Say hello to the rural life.) When will I be able to start my own firm? (Depends. Am I marrying rich?) When will I have kids? (See answer #2). SCARY!!!!!!!

Finding out how much many of these schools hold in endowment was a big eye-opener to me about the tuition racket. And yes, it IS a racket. The only way the expensive schools will wise up is when people stop going. Believe me you will forget half you know by 5 years out of college (and will have learned TWICE as much in practice as you ever did in college) so why screw the rest of your life over for those few years of expensive education?

Hey, are you a US citizen? Because you'll probably get some sort of help, at least a little. I know Yale's financial aid is need-based, so if you get in and you're broke, you get a fair amount of help. Just as an example. Make sure you fill out ALL the forms they ask for for financial stuff..Yale and Harvard have extra forms, among others. Hopefully a grant or scholarship will come up, because 150G is quite a lot.

maybe they're not going to architecture grad school. maybe they're going to med school or maybe business school where they could pay that off in a couple of years if they work the same amount of hours we architects do . . . . in a large equity firm or bank. then they'd have enough left over to commission one of us to design their uber-trendy 'loft'.

I've heard that a good rule of thumb is to never take on more student loan debt than your first year's salary will be when you get out of school. For an MArch that would be about 40-45k.

If you take out 150k in loans your payment would likely be be at least $700 per month for for a 30 year payback and MUCH more for a shorter payback. Even at 700 a month that already eats up almost 20% of your starting salary. Taxes will take about another 25%. 401k or IRA a minimum of another 10%. That leaves you with about $18k a year in take home pay. Could you really live on 18k a year?

I doubt that Baulding will have to borrow that entire amount. He could reduce his living expenses, actively seek scholarships, fellowships, etc. When I started G-school I thought I would have to borrow tons and tons, and I still do...but I've been able to whiddle down the amount through achievement, awards, work, etc.

you know, I CAN really live on 18k a year take-home, after savings and loans and taxes are paid. I won't own a house or anything at that rate, but I could have a decent place to live and good clothes for work and be able to hit the movies on the weekend. And let's be realistic- with the interest payments on 700/month worth of loans, and 10% into your 401(k), you wouldn't be paying anything like 25% in taxes, so it would actually be more.

I was right- taking the above example of 45k/year, 700/month in loan payments, 10% to the 401(k), and a tax rate of 25%, the take home is actually $21,400. You have to remember that the 401(k) contributions and the interest on the loans (assumed about 25% of loan payment goes to interest) are not taxable income, which brings your taxes lower.

i think 700 a month in loan payments is underestimating it...i have 103k total debt and i pay close to 1000 a month. the calculator that liebchen linked overestimates.

Sorry folks, but taking out $150 k for grad school in architecture is just stupid .... you wonder why architects have such a poor reputation as businessmen/ women. We can't figure out that the profession doesn't pay enough to ever crawl out of debt.

Go get a job as a contractor, plumber or electrician and get a life not a burden that you will carry for far too many years. or even better go to a school that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. The denial in living off credit / loans is unbelievably naive.

go to a state school!

Hmm....5 year BArch at a rural state school. Get in state tuition and pay approx $10k/year. Add another $5k living expenses = $15k x 5 years = $75k. And my figures are probably a bit low and dated.

If you are setting out to finance 100% of your college education you're screwed no matter where you go. Save some money. Get a job and work. There's no shame in going to arch school when you are older. Patience.

There's a cap on the amount of interest on student loans that is tax deductible. Currently it is $2500 per year, which is much less than the interest that you'll actually pay per year on 150k in loans.
Also, once your income hits 50k you can't even deduct the full $2500 anymore, and once you hit 60k you can't deduct any of it.

If you take 150k in loans far more than 25% of your payments will go to interest. In the early years of repayment almost all of your payments will go to cover interest (well over 10k per year) and you'll be taxed on all of that except $2500 at most.

Where I've regretted my amount of student loan debt (which is nowhere near 150k) is when I was applying for a mortgage. The monthly loan payment will reduce the amount you will be allowed to borrow for a home - regardless of whether you have perfect credit.

Think it through carefully. That amount of debt will be nearly impossible to handle on a starting architecture salary, so you'll end up consolidating, and then this debt will be with you for 15-30 years.

Dammson, assume you took apuapura's advice by saving money and waiting before you went to grad school. How long would it take you to save the money that you ended up borrowing? If you saved the $1000/ month you now spend on loan repayments? It could take 9 years to bust the $100k mark. At rationalists $700/ month it could take 16 years to pay for Columbia. Estimates all, but how long are you willing to wait?

On one of my loans last year, I paid $1000 total over the year--of which $900 went to interest and a measly ONE HUNDRED BUCKS to the principle. Ugh.

Can't believe no one's linked to one of the 49 threads that pops up when you search for "student loan," or one of the 70 threads about "debt" on this forum...

please, please, please do some research -- before you enter grad school -- about what your realistic income potential will be upon graduation.

at some level this is an investment decision -- unless you define your future totally in terms of happiness and are independently wealthy (which would preclude the notion of borrowing) don't invest tons more in an education than you are likely to earn back within a reasonable time frame.

I agree. I've noticed that most people in this and similar threads use numbers in the 40k-45k range for hypothetical starting salaries. These aren't unusual for certain types of firms, in certain regions. But the national average is a lot lower, and in some regions typical starting salaries are still in the high 20s/low 30s.
The national average for architects with 10 to 15 years of experience is still only in the 55k to 75k range. Obviously the upper 50 percentiles are making more than this - but somebody has to be in the lower 50 that are making less...

do it. money is just dirty paper. charge it all!

Just to be clear: I am in no way advocating racking up $150k in debt from architecture school. I just meant to point out that a person can live in relative comfort on less than some people around here seem to think.

I agree with you rationalist but, I suspect you don't have a spouse, kids, mortage and your kids tuition / college fund to consider. Not being nasty just, well rational, when you get to a certain point in your career certain aspects of your life drive the need to have a certain standard of living.

Just my observation

yeah, definitely was thinking of a single person, not family. If you've got a family already, your spouse had better be in a VERY lucrative field for you to even think about that kind of debt.

Your scenario above assumes a 45k starting salary, in a place with pretty low rent. That's a tough equation to start.

Then you also seem to be imagining some huge tax savings on the loan interest. The biggest refund that can be realized for the $2500 interest deduction by someone in the 25% tax bracket is $625 per year.

Sure, you can get by. I did for years. But on a tight budget it's so easy for any little disaster to throw a wrench in the works. I had an accident that resulted in big medical and dental bills, some of which weren't covered by insurance. I had to raid the 401k for that. A weather disaster hit my apartment building, and while renters insurance covered lost posessions and a short stint in a hotel, I still had to come up with a new security deposit and first month's rent on a moment's notice. And over the years there were travel expenses for funerals and weddings, gifts and clothes for the latter, Christmas shopping, one real vacation, books, a couple computers, a few thousand dollars in NCARB fees, state licensing fees, etc.
I ended up racking up credit card debt that it took years to pay off.
The shoestring lifestyle gets tough after some years.

I was only assuming $2100 deductable from the loan interest (700/month x 12 months x .25 stated assumption of interest percentage): the rest of the savings came from the fact that 401(k) contributions are tax-free. The 18k number came from deducting tax before deducting 401(k) contribution, but that's backwards from how it actually works and results in a lower number than what is real. So in fact, if a person was able to claim the full $2500 loan interest amount, then they would have a teeny bit more take-home pay than my estimate gave them. The $700/month amount came from 4arch's statement, it did not originate with me.

oh, and I made no assumptions about rent. My only statement was that I could live on 18k/year take-home. And I live in Los Angeles, so I don't think I have an unrealistic assumption of what rent costs: I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations on what they "need" in a housing situation.

If you're going to incur a debt of $150K, don't do it studying architecture unless you're really committed to it. This is not a very bankable profession.

Personally, I have just over $65K in debt from school and shell out nearly $800 month (which is more than the min payment). While it sucks to pay that much every month to a loan, I console myself with the thought that I can afford to pay it without stress. I dream of the kind of car I could be driving right now with that $700/month.

i'd see $18k as being feasible for l.a. if you weren't dropping money left and right. i'm living off $13.2k in seattle, the rest goes into various funds since i paid off the $32k in debt i racked up for a state b.arch

one of my closest friends doled out $125k in loans for a b.arch.

And how is that person doing with their payments, Holz...?

eh, he's alive, but i don't envy his schedule. his cost of living is about equal to mine. without spare money or time.

but it's what he had to do to not live in a mountain of debt for more than a few years - he's trying to be sands debt in about 6 years.

holds down 3 jobs:

1. architect - decent firm, though he could be making at least another 5-8k.

2. bartender - every evening solely for loan payments. this pays about equal to job #1. this also allows him to eat and drink for practically nothing.


3. builds/installs cabinets on the weekend - solely to pay off credit cards.


he's only able to do it because for some reason the f*cker can get by on 4 hours sleep and has since i met his sorry ass.

sans debt

wrecking ball, assuming i'm gonna be paying around the same amount probably a little higher; how long do you think it would take to pay it off?

if your interest rate is less than inflation as mine is (2.8%) take as long as you can to pay it off (30 yrs). if it is above 3.5%-4%, you may want to look at paying above the minimum.

the low interest rates may have come and gone. i was lucky to graduate and consolidate when the prime rate was very low.

Good time to bring this one back?

People that graduated in May will soon have to start repaying their loans (myself included.)

With interest rates so low, my loans are actually fairly manageable. I have spent the last year shitting a brick over $1000 per month payments, when they will actually be $360 per months.

93K in loans, half of which are finished after 15 years, and the other half run 25.

Not the best scenario, and I wish I had planned better while I was still in school, but I am feeling OK about my current situation, for now.

life after tuition? is there such thing? I believe it is called "existing", not life...

@holz.box - is your friend a robot?

Strawbeary has the best advice. They can't jail you in the US for debt anymore!

Rationlist has some pretty sound advice. I know this will piss people off-- but the words young, family and professional do not mix.

I'm all for older people going back to school and reeducating themselves-- you know, all that jazz-- but somethings you just can't accomplish with the ball and chain. Swimming to name one.

I know... there's going to be someone who is all "HGUALGUAHGUH, MY FAMILY MOTIVATES ME," but I posit this... what happens when your family leaves you, doesn't love you or die?

I can appreciate people doing the family thing but the smugness of it all irritates the be-jesus out of me. Wait, I'm suppose to respect you because you have children? I'm suppose to grovel at your feet because you "did it with kids." Or that the only reason you push yourself is because you don't want to seem like the loser you are in front of your brats?

I quit a really good job over this issue. Hoe was on her 6th kid, commuted an hour and a half each way and drove a truck that got like barely 14 miles to the gallon.

ALWAYS COMPLAINED. She was only 5 months pregnant and complained about working-- her husband was a lawyer... didn't technically need to work but worked so "their family could have a better life."

PUKE FACTOR.

Long story short, I told the BOSS that bitch needs to get FIRED. He wouldn't fire her because he was afraid of a lawsuit. I flipped my shit. She only did 1.5 hours worth of work and had the ability to work from home.

Did she? No. Never. She came into the office and complained and farted for 5 hours a day. Anytime anyone asked her to do actual work... she'd just say she's slow right now because she wasn't feeling well.

Her complaints were of three categories 1) how terrible her body looks from having kids, 2) the price of bread and 3) why women's shoes are comfortable.

Like literally, she blamed the price of bread for nearly bankrupting her out of her 500k "country house."

Sorry, I AM HAVING A RAGE SEIZURE.

orochi i understand your pain, i actually tell people like that they suck sicnce i'm not the boss, I can do that.

did you put any of that debt in stock? i did and i bought a house, i pulled Enron like economics, booyaaa and now a home owner...

get a loan to get a loan...

you pay it off in small increments, big deal, just never free really....

i have a buddy who accidently forgot to tell unemployment not to keep paying him, the DA called him and set courtdate in a week, crimiinal not civil...fortunately he hired a laywer, but had he not he was looking at prison for a couple years....

I afraid you are making the biggest mistake in your life for an education not worth anywhere, least of all CU.

here are some whys to turn that around within 5 years after graduation:

1. marry a rich guy/gal so your spouse can help you pay back the loan.
2. leave the county and never come back.
3. die.

it took me 10 years to pay back $85g, barely over 1/2 you amount.
I got paid well, bought new car, home, very little traveling, any extra money went into paying back loan, yet it still took 10 years. I wanted to get that monkey off my back asap, and i cannot imagine doing it with double the amount or possibly 20 years.

WAKE UP!

monkey on back is equal to inflation, so not really monkey on back...

look at this way - thanks for the cool college years government and thanks for interest being equal to nothing, because in 20 years a $200 month payment is like buying milk for the month...thanks government for not thinking so far ahead...as china takes over.

Maybe, it could be a little out of the point.

But, here's some thought...

How many "star architects" were graduated from expensive schools in US that put us under enormous debts?
Actually, they are really fewer than we think.

How many "star architects" were rich enough financially to stand alone?
As long as I know, most of them.

Even if I don't think some really expensive schools are not worth to go,
I think that financially being free is way more important than being a student in those schools with debts that you have to pay back during basically your whole professional career.

We need to think again about this situation.
Here are two ways looking at the situation. Which one is more insightful, do you think?
1: I can pay those debts without any trouble for 30 years?
2: Or can I do anything but paying my debts for 30 years not to get in financial touble?