I am for a negotiated one state solution with equal citizenry for Palestinians. However impossible that is at the moment and in the eyes of silenced Israeli progressive and humanitarian thinking.
I recommend this interview with Israeli thinker Meron Benvenisti for serious responders who will not resort to one liner most American and European media ad hominems and go beyond the false rocket postulations.
One state solution is something the oppressor regimes of Israel will never accept because choking Palestinian populations, settling into their properties, burning down their olive orchards, bombing out their houses and murdering women and children works well for Israeli political hawks. Never mind this asymmetrical use of force will eventually render Israel unsustainable in front of world opinion.
These maps show Israel's current and developing open prison system. Disgusting.
Nov 19, 12 3:32 pm ·
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Be careful when criticizing Israel. They're getting pretty good with those pinpoint strikes and you wouldn't want to go down like that, would you?
Call me a cynic, but you can't. You're an ARCHITECT, not a conflict negotiator. I love when architects assume that any situation with people in crisis is only missing one key ingredient: better building! AIDS in Africa? Architecture! Lack of potable water in Bangladesh? Architecture! Violent, incredibly complex conflict involving two warring parties going back 60+ years? Sprinkle some architecture on that shit and it'll fix itself!
If the issue at hand is hurricane relief or building schools in Africa, fine, design to your heart's content. But if you really care about a cause, 90% of the time, the best thing to do is to donate money to a like-minded organization, rather than try to wrap it into your professional interests.
this whole thing makes me sick. kids being blown up does not solve anything. War is failure. If politicians resort to war they are failures. I voted for obama, but his support of this makes me doubt his legitimacy as a leader. Ron Paul seems to be the only voice of reason when it comes to foreign policy. So sad. Little boys with big bombs thats all they are. it is clear that israel is the main aggressor. I smell a false flag to drag america into a war with iran. It is all a plan. People of this earth deserve better. Sick ego maniacs with little peepee's thats all they are. People of earth unite and resist all violence and oppression.
Wow w.architect. Nice choice of words. Open air Concentration Camp? Yes, because the Israeli Occupation of Gaza is exactly the same thing as the systematized murder of 6 million people. Get a fucking clue.
Perhaps your oblique reference to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was un-intended, but given the context I find that particularly hard to believe.
Even during this operation Iron Pillar, Israel still continues to deliver truck-loads of food and medical supplies to Gaza (and also some 26 patients in need of care entered Israel from Gaza). This of course despite the fact that since the Battle of Gaza in 2006 (following Israel's withdraw from the territory) Hamas now controls the Strip, having expelling Fatah and severing ties with Abbas and the PA.
Look, Gaza is a nightmare and a humanitarian disaster, but if you think it's simply a result of Israeli aggression, I think it's you who needs to get better informed about the situation there.
Nov 20, 12 5:23 am ·
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Wait a minute, I'm confused now. After re-reading the title again today, I have to ask: Who or what is "the Gaza" and why is he/it stripping people? R we talking middle east shit or some kind of hip hop/ rap reality tv show?
"indiscriminate rocket fire on population centers".
Because precise "surgical" attack only kills the only target, eh? If you are really curious and honest you'll find gaps in what American media often say about these conflicts in the middle east and the onus is yours to fill the gaps.
Another thing is everyone should read Lethal Theory by Eyal Weizman to learn how IDF operates and how it relates to architecture/urbanism. Very powerful reading.
Re: how we can help: there are a few architecture groups who are in Palestine to help with rebuilding, but the situation obviously is pretty bad so unless you're ready to be there, the least you can do is to raise solidarity and awareness among your friends about the conflict.
Because precise "surgical" attack only kills the only target, eh?
In ~1450 strikes there were 102 civilian deaths (and that's Hamas' number - israel only claims 57 and the truth is probably somewhere in between). Tragic, absolutely. Surgical? Absolutely. Although mistakes are made in every military, the mistake isn't using civilian areas to launch rockets at cities or store rockets in civilian structures.
Did you even read the article? Israel had a choice between shelling/bombing the areas involved to keep terrorists from launching rockets out of them, or making booming sounds. Apparently you think shelling is the better idea.
I can tell you personally, having lived near an air force base and having heard sonic booms multiple times every day for years that there is nothing inherently damaging about the sound, and the sound is much less damaging than the boom accompanied by a bomb or shell.
The middle east. The only situation in the world where people who claim to be concerned about innocent civilians condone launching rockets at cities with the aim of killing civilians, but cry about a 7 year old article that explicitly states Israel choosing a non-lethal method of deterrence.
Probably it's naivety but you need to understand how propaganda is used in war. Every single terms used: surgical, non lethal, etc etc are all propaganda - of course the same also comes from the Palestine. It is your responsibility to shift through them to understand the actual physical (human and non human) damage caused to make a better comparison. These "surgical" attacks have caused thousands of Palestinian lives yet the "indiscriminate" rocket launches are incomparable in terms of the damage.
You are also probably aware (I give you the benefit of the doubt) that this war has gone on for decades. So to be just in your judgement, you need to take into account what has happened before and how they lead to current condition. Take into account events like Shabra and Shattila, the 62 UN resolutions, the Goldstone report, the Palestinian loss of land (as posted by Orhan), and so on.
To defend the rights of Palestinians to not live in an open air prison is not the same as condoning the launching of rockets. This kind of policy of "either you are with us or against us" has been proven in history to be very dangerous over and over again. There are those who speak out in both Palestine and Israel for normalcy and peace regardless who lead the government.
I don't intend to change your mind and I tend to avoid unmoderated online debates as they are often nothing but trolling match. But in any case there has to be a stand of solidarity when it is very clearly when one sided has been oppressed and damaged much more so than the other.
. It is your responsibility to shift through them to understand the actual
That's cute, you start off by telling me I have to have the same opinion as you.
These "surgical" attacks have caused thousands of Palestinian lives yet the "indiscriminate" rocket launches are incomparable in terms of the damage.
Oh, ok, that totally justifies aiming rockets at civilians.
You are also probably aware (I give you the benefit of the doubt) that this war has gone on for decades. So to be just in your judgement, you need to take into account what has happened before and how they lead to current condition. Take into account events like Shabra and Shattila, the 62 UN resolutions, the Goldstone report, the Palestinian loss of land (as posted by Orhan), and so on.
Ok, so be fair about it. Let's go back in time and see the behaviour of the palestinians. I won't list every year, because that would take too long, but in the last ~10 years thousands upon thousands of artillery rockets have been fired at israeli civilians. The rockets came out as a response to highly protested wall that brought suicide bombing down to nothing. Remember suicide bombings? Again, won't list every year but in 2003 there were 23 suicide bombings, in 2002 there were 47, In 2001 there were 40. Suicide bombs almost competely targeted at public gathering places - malls, restaurants, clubs, buses etc. Remember the Passover Massacre of 2002, where a suicide bomber killed 30 people and injured 140? The Tel Aviv Dolphinarium Bombing where a suicide bomber killed 21 teenager and injured 130 more? We can go further back in time for some notables too - the Munich Massacre of 1978, numerous plane hijackings, etc. The list goes on and on.
You want to only look at the history you like, just like you think I HAVE to think like you do. You have largely ignored Palestinian violence in an attempt to make the situation more one sided than it is.
I don't intend to change your mind and I tend to avoid unmoderated online debates as they are often nothing but trolling match. But in any case there has to be a stand of solidarity when it is very clearly when one sided has been oppressed and damaged much more so than the other.
Yes, well, me neither. Its only been one sided since israel put up the wall that has almost completely stopped suicide bomber infiltration into israel and forced palestinian terror groups to use less effective methods. Its only recently that its been so "one sided" but you want everyone to forget the bloody history of BOTH sides.
As the situation stands right now, one side targets civilians and the other doesn't. Pretending that doesn't matter is the necessary fantasy to accept that it isn't monstrous and needs to be stopped COMPLETELY.
Calc. I agree that firing rockets on civilian cities is psychotic and indefensible from a human standpoint and profoundly counterproductive from a political standpoint. What is also true is that the same is true of the treatment of the Palestinian people. To say that airstrikes dont intend to kill civilans absolves them of nothing. A drunk driver does not intend to endanger the lives of those he may crash into, but that doesn't make his behavior any less irresponsible.
I've said before, the leadership of both Hamas and Israel are as bad as each other. There simply is no justification to treat people this way. None. To invoke past suffering in justification of violence is senseless and betrays all those who lived and died under those injustices. The simple fact is until these two peoples can put the past behind them and learn to live together this will never end.
The simple fact is until these two peoples can put the past behind them and learn to live together this will never end.
do you realize you are basically advocating israel keeps everything it gained thorough wars and illegal settlements against the numerous united nations resolutions and international treaties and palestinians learn to live peacefully with their oppressors as third class disowned people in their blocked open air prisons consisting of territories cut off from civilization via concrete walls and endless check points with no prospect of basic human rights? as if they don't exist with no economical and civil prospects?
is this what you wish or see for ending the conflict?
how about israel ending its blockade to gaza, recognize the elected entity of hamas, return what the settlers took in gaza, west bank and elsewhere or accept one state solution with equal rights to palestinians? i bet these would reduce the violence to insignificant levels and eventually end it not only in middle east but probably in other places as well.
otherwise, i am glad they have their rockets to let the world know of their suffering. israel is not doing surgical attacks as they expect world to believe. in just this conflict alone they have killed tens of civilians many of them women and children. it is like cutting up somebody's heart and saying they were trying for appendicitis.
That doesn't excuse blowing up busses and firing rockets. I have absolute sympathy for the horror the palestinians live through, but that is all the more reason for them to put their weapons down. It gains them nothing and costs them everything. The day the rockets stop and Palestinians unite is the day Israels excuses for why they cannot make peace will come to an end.
maybe you want them to stay where they are so you can continuously feel sympathy for them and feel like you are a politically conscientious person. but when they ask for anything more you also bring out how terrorist they are for blowing up buses and firing rockets. your sympathy melts and israel with all its criminal treatment of palestinians prevails. in a nut shell.
^Sorry, the above was to Beta's contention that Israel is the agressor.
Calc: "By all means, then, identify a military response that is appropriate and is effective in deterring rocket attacks."
How about actually showing up to the negotiating table to solve the problem.
Orhan: "How about israel ending its blockade to gaza, recognize the elected entity of hamas, return what the settlers took in gaza, west bank and elsewhere or accept one state solution with equal rights to palestinians? i bet these would reduce the violence to insignificant levels and eventually end it not only in middle east but probably in other places as well."
This is obviously exactly what needs to happen and everyone knows it.
"otherwise, i am glad they have their rockets to let the world know of their suffering."
This, however, is idiotic. The rockets let the world know nothing except that Hama's is not yet ready to make peace. They accomplish nothing but to provide Israel with the cheapest excuse imaginable to continue brutalizing them.
The UK, France, Germany, even the US would find their support for Israel indefensible if the rockets stopped. There would be no excuse for the blockade, and no excuse for refusing enter serious negotiations.
"maybe you want them to stay where they are so you can continuously feel sympathy for them and feel like you are a politically conscientious person. but when they ask for anything more you also bring out how terrorist they are for blowing up buses and firing rockets. your sympathy melts and israel with all its criminal treatment of palestinians prevails. in a nut shell."
This has nothing to do with my sympathy. This has to do with what is the most sensible course to actually solving the problem. At this point I have zero faith that Netanyahu's government has any interest in coming to any settlement whatsoever. Kadima is useless, so even if they could be any different (which is doubtful) the point would be mute. I'm sure you would agree, but it seems completely obvious they plan essentially to move the wall and build settlements until there is no land left to negotiate over. It may already be that the time for a two state solution has passed, that there no will within Israel to accept any deal based on the 1967 borders, even with agreed swaps. If thats the case, I dont know what can be done. To my mind, the best possible outcome is one state with equal voting rights for all. If the demographic reality means Israel is no longer a 'Jewish state', then so be it. That was the choice the Israeli government made for itself every day the settlements continued.
In either case, the only way Palestinians achieve the things they are seeking, an end to the blockade, the end of the indignity they live under, is to put their weapons down and force Israel to account for its behavior without the cover of victimhood it not shrouds itself with.
israel has to make a grand gesture of some sort to give palestinians serious incentives to ease armed struggle. lifting blockade, making it easy for palestinians to move around, help with building infrastructure, water access, stop the settlements, etc.. would help for showing some "care" towards sustainable peace. but somehow it is never thousands of palestians killed, jailed and embargoed but few jewish casualties.
the sentiment in israeli public is especially worrisome.
"Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs."
these barbaric statements are at a government level mind you...
while palestinians are crying "lift the blockade we need medicine and food." it is so bad dignity is not even high up on their list at the moment. it is a mass punishment because israeli regime does not like hamas and won't speak to them except thorough assassinations.
do you realize you are basically advocating israel keeps everything it gained thorough wars and illegal settlements against the numerous united nations resolutions and international treaties and palestinians learn to live peacefully with their oppressors as third class disowned people in their blocked open air prisons consisting of territories cut off from civilization via concrete walls and endless check points with no prospect of basic human rights? as if they don't exist with no economical and civil prospects?
1) I disagree that supporting israel is agreeing to everything israel has ever done and that nothing can ever change and no agreement can be reached. I never said any of those things and I think your assertion that I have an all or nothing choice is false on its face.
2) I keep hearing this "open air prison" line all the time. I think the conditions the palestinian people live under are bad. At the same time I remember living through the things that caused those conditions to come to being. The checkpoints, the concrete wall, etc. None of those things came into being because one day an IDF general was bored and decided "Why not?".
There were DECADES of suicide bombings in israel. Infiltrators would sneak explosives and suicide bombers out of the territories and into israeli cities. I'm not going to recount the bombings, its a waste of time, but suffice to say that israel instituted the checkpoints with the idea of protecting israeli citizens in mind. Does it create hardship on palestinians moving around the west bank? absolutely. It's terrible. But so are buses exploding in Tel Aviv, and from the perspective of the israeli government its first responsibility was to protect israelis. The concrete wall was the same thing, and was 1000x more successful than the checkpoints. Infiltration of suicide bombers and explosives materials into israel has almost completely stopped.
And of course, since their infiltrators kept getting caught, the palestinians started making artillery rockets and the rest is a decade of history in which thousands and thousands of them have been shot.
I sympathize with the plight of the average palestinian in terms of poverty. When israel restricted their movements into israel for fear of terrorist strikes, it killed a lot of the work the palestinians did have. At the same time I understand why israel did it.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do know the problem wasn't created overnight by a bored guy sitting a computer screen.
how about israel ending its blockade to gaza, recognize the elected entity of hamas, return what the settlers took in gaza, west bank and elsewhere
I hope and pray that one day there will be no blockade on gaza. I also hope and pray that Hamas stops importing weapons to use against israel. Again, there is no easy solution. It isn't credible to israelis to allow materials to move through without being checked for weapons. Multiple times Israel has caught ships and trucks filled with explosives, missiles, guns, ammo, etc. From the israeli perspective these things make the blockade necessary, and launching thousands of rockets at israel doesn't change any opinions on it.
Recognizing the entity of Hamas in what manner? In the same way Hamas recognizes israel? Ever read article 7 and 13 of the Hamas Charter? Hamas is the elected government of gaza, but that doesn't stop them from launching terrorist attacks on israel.
The west bank is a contentious issue, because its a very large chunk of land near a lot of israeli cities. I DONT support settlers, but I'm not sure what the final agreement on the west bank should look like. There must be a balance struck between both sides on the issue.
There are no settlers in gaza. Israel withdrew completely from gaza in 2005. I supported it, and still do, but its been a disaster for israeli security, just as the israeli right wing predicted.
or accept one state solution with equal rights to palestinians
Not on the table and never will be. It gives all the advantages to the palestinians and nothing to the israelis. It is not a fair solution, thus israel will never agree to it. 2 states is the way forward. If israel can't trust palestinians now with a concrete fence between the two parties, why do you think magically a one state solution will work? it would fall apart in the first week into war worse than what is going on now.
otherwise, i am glad they have their rockets to let the world know of their suffering.
The palestinians have a fine PR machine and support from much media around the world. The rockets don't let the world know about suffering, they just fall on israel as an attempt to kill civilians. They make sure Israelis want nothing to do with the palestinians, and that the palestinians can't be trusted to police their criminals. If you are glad for the launching of rockets at civilians, then every person in israel will be your opponent both at a diplomatic table and across a field of war. Decrying palestinian civilians killed and ignoring palestinian attacks on civilians is hypocrisy, and the launching of rockets themselves first degree murder.
in just this conflict alone they have killed tens of civilians many of them women and children.
Again, tragic, but accidental and largely not the norm for the operation. there were ~1550 strikes. The amount of casualties was incredibly low, and I'm thankful for it. Hamas could have ended it at any time by stopping the launch of rockets. Thats what the whole thing was about.
I suspect this line was just put in your post, though, as an appeal to emotion.
a) I didn't propose a solution because there is no easy solution. If there was one, this whole thing would have been over long ago. Its great for people on the internet to decide "oh, well, just do this and it will all work out" as if isreal and the palestinians live in a vacuum where you can measure all the forces in the system and come up with a 100% solution that will work every time.
People are complicated. People in extreme situations even more so.
I think the solution lies with 2 states. I think the solution lies in something that builds mutual trust. But currently there isn't ANY trust on either side, and neither side is led by governments that would accept solutions the other side would agree to. If I had an answer likely to work that both sides would agree to I wouldn't be typing this out on archinect forums, thats for sure, I'd be trying to make it happen.
I can tell you for certain the solution doesn't lie with the opinions you expressed on the launching of rockets at civilians. If the rocket attacks continue a ground war in gaza is inevitable, and I have no interest in the civilian deaths that would cause at all. I am enormously pleased that it didn't happen again.
b) What you said was ambiguous, but I'd bet you're accusing israel of orchestrating palestinian attacks as excuses. I completely disagree with you if that is the case, and think that kind of thing is one of the reasons peace in our lifetimes is unlikely.
the "systematic" bit has a lot to do with those four maps i posted earlier.
some of your points are plausible but i noticed that you never really address the root cause of all the problems which are realistically illustrated with those maps also.
i would also appreciate if you use your real name so i know whose behind of these discussions. i don't think it would be harmful in any way. we are all intelligent adults here. each time i address to a 'calculator' instead of doing the dishes my wife gets angry at me.;.)
the "systematic" bit has a lot to do with those four maps i posted earlier.
I agree there are definitely those in israel who want to hold onto as much as the west bank as they can. I also know that similarly there are those who see the ridiculousness of the situation. But, as I mentioned before, the west bank is problematic security-wise and I don't think there is any hope of convincing israel to relinquish control over it by threatening israeli cities.
As I said earlier, I'm not sure what the solution is, but it isn't what's being done right now.
some of your points are plausible
Please, tell me which are not so that I can address your concerns.
but i noticed that you never really address the root cause of all the problems which are realistically illustrated with those maps also.
Please state what you consider to be the root cause, instead of making me guess. If you're going to say its land, I'd say look at the history of the region and you'll see violence long before the state of israel and before israel was in the territories.
i would also appreciate if you use your real name so i know whose behind of these discussions. i don't think it would be harmful in any way. we are all intelligent adults here. each time i address to a 'calculator' instead of doing the dishes my wife gets angry at me.;.)
I am generally hesitant to give out my name online, but my first name is Gershon.
You should listen to your wife, though, because this conversation can wait, while making your wife wait is done at your own peril...
yes.., the root cause is the land.. quite contemporary and not so biblical.. look again to those maps.
i think it is a weak argument to relate the site specific history as the place where they always had wars. not even so. for centuries christians, jews and muslims peacefully co existed and treated each other with mutual respect. and why this war logic is used as legitimizing reason to rationalize israel's irrational actions? it is ridiculous. they had more and more lethal and fanatical racist wars in so called civilized europe where millions of innocent people were murdered systematically. look at last 100 years. and another few just recently in former yugoslavia which also involved mass murders. does that mean we can now rationalize continuity of those wars and crimes.. and shake our heads saying "look there were always wars here." and let's have more.
yes.., the root cause is the land.. quite contemporary and not so biblical.. look again to those maps.
I didn't mean biblically. I meant generally 1900s and on. There have been tensions in the region including attacks and massacres on both sides for 100 years, before Israel before the six day war, etc. The balance of your post is responding to something I never said, I'm sorry you took it to mean that.
does that mean we can now rationalize continuity of those wars and crimes.. and shake our heads saying "look there were always wars here." and let's have more
While in general you seem reasonable, orhan, doesn't this sentence smack of hypocrisy with your support of launching artillery rockets at civilian population centres You support war crimes, just the ones you like and not the others.
Don't take that as a personal attack - it isn't. I think you're dead wrong in your support of that activity but I hope you can see that the rocket attacks are neither morally justifiable nor effective at getting Palestinians what they want. Real change on both sides is required if peace is ever to be achieved.
Anyways, its getting late here and I have to be up tomorrow early. I will respond to anything you have to say tomorrow when I have some free time.
so far palestinians are not seriously accused of war crimes.., the israeli side was but ICC gave in to a technicality and US pressure. but UN was more clearer on the issue and it mainly issued a report finding israel responsible and in a small way hamas too.
"I sympathize with the plight of the average palestinian in terms of poverty."
i am pretty sure they thank you for your sympathy. many of them and their children can now die in peace burning or dismembered with the knowledge that there is someone who has sympathy for their "poverty". and all of that is ,of course, is of their own making since they had the audacity to fight back against an entity that is just trying to near starve them
Create a live feed with the death count of both parts of the conflict for the world to watch. First of all, the west will realize Israelis have killed far, far more Palestinians than the other way round. Second, the pro-Palestinian camp will realize they HAVE killed innocent people as well. Third, the world will constantly be reminded how sick and tired it has become of children dying. Killing an Israeli child will not liberate Gaza, and killing a Palestinian child will not stop the rockets against Israel.
This is the 21st century after all, it is time we realize killing people has never solved anything, and nobody is going to be wiped of the planet.
I dont know. Its going to be tough. Very honestly I dont see how any progress can be made while Netanyahu is in office. Over the course of 2013 tensions over Iran's nuclear program will be very high. Now that Romney lost the chances of an all out strike have lowered, but they havent disappeared. Hamas will continue to be played as a pawn, which is terribly discouraging. I know a little about this stuff but I am by no means an expert. If I were to suggest a course of action, though, it would be first to find a political accommodation between Hamas and Fatah. They can keep their respective authorities, but they need to arrive at an agreed set of goals and speak with one voice during negotiations. All the while the rockets need to stop. They just serve no purpose but to leach palestinians of credibility. You then agree to unconditional negotiations. I know, Netanyahu is a dick, and will do everything he can to make things not work. He will agree to settlements durring negotiations. He'll probably pass legislation in Israel to strip arabs of rights. But Palestinians must hold strong. Each one of those actions will only weaken his image in the world and weaken his position at the table. The more he seems unreasonable, the more his positions will appear so.
Personally, (again, Im not an expert,) but I would give on right of return in exchange for land in east Jerusalem settled since 1967.
Im not saying its going to work. Im certainly not saying its fair, to ask Palestinians to unilaterally disarm and turn a temporary blind eye on settlements. Im just saying it would be smart. As things stand time is against the palestinians. They need to turn the tables, and to me, renouncing violence is the surest way to change the global perception from two intractable enemies to one clearly oppressive government over a peacefully resisting people simply asking for the rights all people are entitled to.
If all of this fails and Netanyahu remains obstinant, you change gears. Dont threaten violence. Threaten surrender. Accept that you are all Israelis, and simply ask for the right to vote.
so far palestinians are not seriously accused of war crimes.., the israeli side was but ICC gave in to a technicality and US pressure. but UN was more clearer on the issue and it mainly issued a report finding israel responsible and in a small way hamas too.
Orhan you seem like a fairly reasonable person, so I cannot understand some things about your opinion.
Either attacks against civilians are legitimate or not. If they are not legitimate, then rocket fire against israeli citizens IS a warcrime. If you think they are legitimate, then I guess there isn't that much more to say and you aren't as reasonable as I thought you were.
Orhan, you sound(ed) like a reasonable person but really you have proven to be another ignorant middle eastener (eheheheh).
it is all very amusing, this reversal of roles. israel has done a marvelous job of at least reaching stalemate..which is a win for it.
anyway, this is boring for me now as i know most people here, including oe, are either in essence nonchalant dabblers who wish to be 'partial' to the point of paralysis or simply ignorant of what is going on. it would be more honest for a person like oe to just say that they dont care. at least, zionist-symathisers are standing up for something they believe in, as evil it has proven to be. being impartial for its own sake while pretending to care ... pfft, waht an inflated fart that is.
Orhan, again. i thought you were impartial, i thought you were going to see past the countless trivial details and that really silly principle that a people have a right to retain their homes, to choose to live without fear of having their children locked up and throw to jail for decades, to live without being controlled by an alien entity that restricts their amount of food and material in order to break them down and humiliate them, that has previously stolen their homes elsewhere and driven them into gaza where it now tethers them...
no, its not possible to forgive and forget - not unless amends are made by the primary and supreme aggressor, by the people of Israel to the people of Palestine, and the affected people have been recompensated. it is not the nazis who had to make amends but the germans themselves. this is a civilized and admirable decision, an honest confrontation that has much better chances of healing wounds. otherwise, it is only normal - for most people in the region who are neither palestinians nor israelis and for many more around the world- to justify the acts of Palestinian resistance. of course real Israeli people are going to die...whether soldiers or civilians. why, you think a soldier is not a young man or woman who has a family, who suffers, who might not have been there of his or her own choice or out of an ideological conviction? I feel sad for Israelis who die - men, women, children. And when the only way you can resist is by shooting rockets to the colonized lands where resides the aggressor, thats what you do in war.
war IS a war crime. let them (the israelis) stop the war on gaza, let them address the grievances that they have caused the Palestinians and they will address the grievances that have been returned in kind (disproportionately)...thats all really. all this stupid talk of one state and two state and .... will not satiate, will not appease
I agree that would be a huge component, and one that is often overlooked. But Im sure you realize that doesn't adress the real on-the-ground realities that the palestinians live with. You can only solve issues of sovereignty and land rights at the negotiating table.
Again, this has nothing to do with my impartiality. No one there cares what I personally think, nor should they. I am, Im sure you would agree, irrelevant to this situation. I've never been to the occupied territories, so you may feel absolutely free to take my opinions with as much salt as you wish. I have however been to places and seen things in this world that compare to what they live with and I am familiar with what that does to a people. People lose hope. People become clouded by hatred. People mistake vengeance for courage. That is exactly what oppression is designed to do. Like I said, I am an outsider, but it seems an obvious truth that in a situation like this it takes one side to make the first move. One side must show the wisdom to change. This is how things changed in South Africa, and India, and Northern Ireland and in the American South. One side had the strength to stop fighting and be smart to actually solve the problem. That's all Im advocating for.
blah blah blah. what you're saying is blah blah blah. it is nearly non-sensical. vapid of any indication of realistic action and certainly devoid of any ethical valour: what you are saying is unethical.
No that is not the way things happen, not in south Africa and not in India where the rebellions instigated a wave of killing of many british and european subjects . Stop faking it already, please. People resist with violence. This is how historically people resist. It is their right to resist violentally as well , to defend themselves. Hamas is a resistance force; they are not terrorists. They got elected by the gazawians; they represent the will of the people who have lived in subhuman conditions enforced on them by Israel.
I wonder whether this was the level of discourse that happened pre apertheid, this disgusting revolting requirement -that should not exist as what follows is self evident- to justify why the victims are victims and the aggressors are aggressors.
must we really recite what we, people who have been affected by it, what we already know to this international audience that barely has a clue and yet is pompous enough to take a position or that ignores the evident to reap the benefit of shady alliances? must i tell you that i know people who had israeli soldiers come into their home and shoot all their family and they only managed to escape because they hid beneath the corpses of their parents? or people who saw a soldier smash a baby against a tree? or teenagers who were taken and never to be seen again? or a woman who used to come and help my mother do the housework who had all her children and her husband shot by the israelis in one of the lebanese palestinian camps during one of their nice trips into lebanon? she was however pregnant; she called her new son Za'al; in arabic, that means Sadness.
I have listened to both sides and neither side is willing to accept an iota of the other side's point of view.
You know nothing whatsoever of my own views on this matter. I don't choose to engage in this debate because neither perspective is going to be adopted by the other side and this continuing bickering - albeit about a very important matter - produces nothing besides injured feelings.
you have already expressed your view by writing that post of yours. you're calling me deaf, right? no, i hear what oe has to say and i have a lot to say agains it. thats not being deaf. you are deaf for not being able to discriminate, to follow the reason or point out to the lack thereof.
plus, mine was not a political point. i am talking murder, theft, injustice...so on and so forth, that old boring stuff. i am not talking elections, right wing left wing. i'm talk experiences that are known to me and that are tangible.
but you may remain unsoiled and make blanket statements. you have that luxury. your people are not being killed after all.
1. People are dying / have died on both sides;
2. Both sides accuse the other side of being ignorant of the "facts";
3. I accused both sides of being deaf.
How can architects help the Gaza strip people?
Facing Israeli aggression, how can architects throughout the world help the Gaza strip people?
tell hamas to stop their rocket-shooting aggression toward the israelis
Before any futher replies, please become informed as to the open air concentration camp which is known as the Gaza strip.
Wow....just wow
7 wars
2 Intifadas
4 armed conflicts
12,000+ rockets and mortars fired
170+ homicide bombings
22,993 soldiers and security personnel killed
Israel is the aggressor?
I am for a negotiated one state solution with equal citizenry for Palestinians. However impossible that is at the moment and in the eyes of silenced Israeli progressive and humanitarian thinking.
I recommend this interview with Israeli thinker Meron Benvenisti for serious responders who will not resort to one liner most American and European media ad hominems and go beyond the false rocket postulations.
One state solution is something the oppressor regimes of Israel will never accept because choking Palestinian populations, settling into their properties, burning down their olive orchards, bombing out their houses and murdering women and children works well for Israeli political hawks. Never mind this asymmetrical use of force will eventually render Israel unsustainable in front of world opinion.
These maps show Israel's current and developing open prison system. Disgusting.
Be careful when criticizing Israel. They're getting pretty good with those pinpoint strikes and you wouldn't want to go down like that, would you?
Yo!
Call me a cynic, but you can't. You're an ARCHITECT, not a conflict negotiator. I love when architects assume that any situation with people in crisis is only missing one key ingredient: better building! AIDS in Africa? Architecture! Lack of potable water in Bangladesh? Architecture! Violent, incredibly complex conflict involving two warring parties going back 60+ years? Sprinkle some architecture on that shit and it'll fix itself!
If the issue at hand is hurricane relief or building schools in Africa, fine, design to your heart's content. But if you really care about a cause, 90% of the time, the best thing to do is to donate money to a like-minded organization, rather than try to wrap it into your professional interests.
indiscriminate rocket fire on population centers? israeli aggression.
They're both assholes and both their populations deserve better.
And.. god. I wish there were something we could do. Honestly the situation is so colossally fucked up I just dont see how.
ask all your Jewish clients
this whole thing makes me sick. kids being blown up does not solve anything. War is failure. If politicians resort to war they are failures. I voted for obama, but his support of this makes me doubt his legitimacy as a leader. Ron Paul seems to be the only voice of reason when it comes to foreign policy. So sad. Little boys with big bombs thats all they are. it is clear that israel is the main aggressor. I smell a false flag to drag america into a war with iran. It is all a plan. People of this earth deserve better. Sick ego maniacs with little peepee's thats all they are. People of earth unite and resist all violence and oppression.
Wow w.architect. Nice choice of words. Open air Concentration Camp? Yes, because the Israeli Occupation of Gaza is exactly the same thing as the systematized murder of 6 million people. Get a fucking clue.
Perhaps your oblique reference to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was un-intended, but given the context I find that particularly hard to believe.
Even during this operation Iron Pillar, Israel still continues to deliver truck-loads of food and medical supplies to Gaza (and also some 26 patients in need of care entered Israel from Gaza). This of course despite the fact that since the Battle of Gaza in 2006 (following Israel's withdraw from the territory) Hamas now controls the Strip, having expelling Fatah and severing ties with Abbas and the PA.
Look, Gaza is a nightmare and a humanitarian disaster, but if you think it's simply a result of Israeli aggression, I think it's you who needs to get better informed about the situation there.
Wait a minute, I'm confused now. After re-reading the title again today, I have to ask: Who or what is "the Gaza" and why is he/it stripping people? R we talking middle east shit or some kind of hip hop/ rap reality tv show?
Yo!
"indiscriminate rocket fire on population centers".
Because precise "surgical" attack only kills the only target, eh? If you are really curious and honest you'll find gaps in what American media often say about these conflicts in the middle east and the onus is yours to fill the gaps.
Another thing is everyone should read Lethal Theory by Eyal Weizman to learn how IDF operates and how it relates to architecture/urbanism. Very powerful reading.
Re: how we can help: there are a few architecture groups who are in Palestine to help with rebuilding, but the situation obviously is pretty bad so unless you're ready to be there, the least you can do is to raise solidarity and awareness among your friends about the conflict.
Because precise "surgical" attack only kills the only target, eh?
In ~1450 strikes there were 102 civilian deaths (and that's Hamas' number - israel only claims 57 and the truth is probably somewhere in between). Tragic, absolutely. Surgical? Absolutely. Although mistakes are made in every military, the mistake isn't using civilian areas to launch rockets at cities or store rockets in civilian structures.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/palestinians-terrorised-by-sonic-boom-flights-513697.html
how about if israel were to stop terrorizing the Palestinian people?
that's where i'd start.
LOL
Did you even read the article? Israel had a choice between shelling/bombing the areas involved to keep terrorists from launching rockets out of them, or making booming sounds. Apparently you think shelling is the better idea.
I can tell you personally, having lived near an air force base and having heard sonic booms multiple times every day for years that there is nothing inherently damaging about the sound, and the sound is much less damaging than the boom accompanied by a bomb or shell.
The middle east. The only situation in the world where people who claim to be concerned about innocent civilians condone launching rockets at cities with the aim of killing civilians, but cry about a 7 year old article that explicitly states Israel choosing a non-lethal method of deterrence.
calculator,
Probably it's naivety but you need to understand how propaganda is used in war. Every single terms used: surgical, non lethal, etc etc are all propaganda - of course the same also comes from the Palestine. It is your responsibility to shift through them to understand the actual physical (human and non human) damage caused to make a better comparison. These "surgical" attacks have caused thousands of Palestinian lives yet the "indiscriminate" rocket launches are incomparable in terms of the damage.
You are also probably aware (I give you the benefit of the doubt) that this war has gone on for decades. So to be just in your judgement, you need to take into account what has happened before and how they lead to current condition. Take into account events like Shabra and Shattila, the 62 UN resolutions, the Goldstone report, the Palestinian loss of land (as posted by Orhan), and so on.
To defend the rights of Palestinians to not live in an open air prison is not the same as condoning the launching of rockets. This kind of policy of "either you are with us or against us" has been proven in history to be very dangerous over and over again. There are those who speak out in both Palestine and Israel for normalcy and peace regardless who lead the government.
I don't intend to change your mind and I tend to avoid unmoderated online debates as they are often nothing but trolling match. But in any case there has to be a stand of solidarity when it is very clearly when one sided has been oppressed and damaged much more so than the other.
@Kamil Muhammad
. It is your responsibility to shift through them to understand the actual
That's cute, you start off by telling me I have to have the same opinion as you.
These "surgical" attacks have caused thousands of Palestinian lives yet the "indiscriminate" rocket launches are incomparable in terms of the damage.
Oh, ok, that totally justifies aiming rockets at civilians.
You are also probably aware (I give you the benefit of the doubt) that this war has gone on for decades. So to be just in your judgement, you need to take into account what has happened before and how they lead to current condition. Take into account events like Shabra and Shattila, the 62 UN resolutions, the Goldstone report, the Palestinian loss of land (as posted by Orhan), and so on.
Ok, so be fair about it. Let's go back in time and see the behaviour of the palestinians. I won't list every year, because that would take too long, but in the last ~10 years thousands upon thousands of artillery rockets have been fired at israeli civilians. The rockets came out as a response to highly protested wall that brought suicide bombing down to nothing. Remember suicide bombings? Again, won't list every year but in 2003 there were 23 suicide bombings, in 2002 there were 47, In 2001 there were 40. Suicide bombs almost competely targeted at public gathering places - malls, restaurants, clubs, buses etc. Remember the Passover Massacre of 2002, where a suicide bomber killed 30 people and injured 140? The Tel Aviv Dolphinarium Bombing where a suicide bomber killed 21 teenager and injured 130 more? We can go further back in time for some notables too - the Munich Massacre of 1978, numerous plane hijackings, etc. The list goes on and on.
You want to only look at the history you like, just like you think I HAVE to think like you do. You have largely ignored Palestinian violence in an attempt to make the situation more one sided than it is.
I don't intend to change your mind and I tend to avoid unmoderated online debates as they are often nothing but trolling match. But in any case there has to be a stand of solidarity when it is very clearly when one sided has been oppressed and damaged much more so than the other.
Yes, well, me neither. Its only been one sided since israel put up the wall that has almost completely stopped suicide bomber infiltration into israel and forced palestinian terror groups to use less effective methods. Its only recently that its been so "one sided" but you want everyone to forget the bloody history of BOTH sides.
As the situation stands right now, one side targets civilians and the other doesn't. Pretending that doesn't matter is the necessary fantasy to accept that it isn't monstrous and needs to be stopped COMPLETELY.
Do you guys like Chromeo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromeo
their music isn't that bad.
The two childhood friends jokingly describe themselves as "the only successful Arab/Jewish partnership since the dawn of human culture."
Calc. I agree that firing rockets on civilian cities is psychotic and indefensible from a human standpoint and profoundly counterproductive from a political standpoint. What is also true is that the same is true of the treatment of the Palestinian people. To say that airstrikes dont intend to kill civilans absolves them of nothing. A drunk driver does not intend to endanger the lives of those he may crash into, but that doesn't make his behavior any less irresponsible.
I've said before, the leadership of both Hamas and Israel are as bad as each other. There simply is no justification to treat people this way. None. To invoke past suffering in justification of violence is senseless and betrays all those who lived and died under those injustices. The simple fact is until these two peoples can put the past behind them and learn to live together this will never end.
A drunk driver does not intend to endanger the lives of those he may crash into, but that doesn't make his behavior any less irresponsible.
By all means, then, identify a military response that is appropriate and is effective in deterring rocket attacks.
The simple fact is until these two peoples can put the past behind them and learn to live together this will never end.
Agreed
So fear of impending bombing and assassinations is a good alternative to solving the problem? israel is the aggressor, have been and always will be.
The simple fact is until these two peoples can put the past behind them and learn to live together this will never end.
do you realize you are basically advocating israel keeps everything it gained thorough wars and illegal settlements against the numerous united nations resolutions and international treaties and palestinians learn to live peacefully with their oppressors as third class disowned people in their blocked open air prisons consisting of territories cut off from civilization via concrete walls and endless check points with no prospect of basic human rights? as if they don't exist with no economical and civil prospects?
is this what you wish or see for ending the conflict?
how about israel ending its blockade to gaza, recognize the elected entity of hamas, return what the settlers took in gaza, west bank and elsewhere or accept one state solution with equal rights to palestinians? i bet these would reduce the violence to insignificant levels and eventually end it not only in middle east but probably in other places as well.
otherwise, i am glad they have their rockets to let the world know of their suffering. israel is not doing surgical attacks as they expect world to believe. in just this conflict alone they have killed tens of civilians many of them women and children. it is like cutting up somebody's heart and saying they were trying for appendicitis.
That doesn't excuse blowing up busses and firing rockets. I have absolute sympathy for the horror the palestinians live through, but that is all the more reason for them to put their weapons down. It gains them nothing and costs them everything. The day the rockets stop and Palestinians unite is the day Israels excuses for why they cannot make peace will come to an end.
maybe you want them to stay where they are so you can continuously feel sympathy for them and feel like you are a politically conscientious person. but when they ask for anything more you also bring out how terrorist they are for blowing up buses and firing rockets. your sympathy melts and israel with all its criminal treatment of palestinians prevails. in a nut shell.
^Sorry, the above was to Beta's contention that Israel is the agressor.
Calc: "By all means, then, identify a military response that is appropriate and is effective in deterring rocket attacks."
How about actually showing up to the negotiating table to solve the problem.
Orhan: "How about israel ending its blockade to gaza, recognize the elected entity of hamas, return what the settlers took in gaza, west bank and elsewhere or accept one state solution with equal rights to palestinians? i bet these would reduce the violence to insignificant levels and eventually end it not only in middle east but probably in other places as well."
This is obviously exactly what needs to happen and everyone knows it.
"otherwise, i am glad they have their rockets to let the world know of their suffering."
This, however, is idiotic. The rockets let the world know nothing except that Hama's is not yet ready to make peace. They accomplish nothing but to provide Israel with the cheapest excuse imaginable to continue brutalizing them.
The UK, France, Germany, even the US would find their support for Israel indefensible if the rockets stopped. There would be no excuse for the blockade, and no excuse for refusing enter serious negotiations.
"maybe you want them to stay where they are so you can continuously feel sympathy for them and feel like you are a politically conscientious person. but when they ask for anything more you also bring out how terrorist they are for blowing up buses and firing rockets. your sympathy melts and israel with all its criminal treatment of palestinians prevails. in a nut shell."
This has nothing to do with my sympathy. This has to do with what is the most sensible course to actually solving the problem. At this point I have zero faith that Netanyahu's government has any interest in coming to any settlement whatsoever. Kadima is useless, so even if they could be any different (which is doubtful) the point would be mute. I'm sure you would agree, but it seems completely obvious they plan essentially to move the wall and build settlements until there is no land left to negotiate over. It may already be that the time for a two state solution has passed, that there no will within Israel to accept any deal based on the 1967 borders, even with agreed swaps. If thats the case, I dont know what can be done. To my mind, the best possible outcome is one state with equal voting rights for all. If the demographic reality means Israel is no longer a 'Jewish state', then so be it. That was the choice the Israeli government made for itself every day the settlements continued.
In either case, the only way Palestinians achieve the things they are seeking, an end to the blockade, the end of the indignity they live under, is to put their weapons down and force Israel to account for its behavior without the cover of victimhood it not shrouds itself with.
thanks oe. you made it clearer. i agree.
israel has to make a grand gesture of some sort to give palestinians serious incentives to ease armed struggle. lifting blockade, making it easy for palestinians to move around, help with building infrastructure, water access, stop the settlements, etc.. would help for showing some "care" towards sustainable peace. but somehow it is never thousands of palestians killed, jailed and embargoed but few jewish casualties.
the sentiment in israeli public is especially worrisome.
"Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs."
these barbaric statements are at a government level mind you...
it is basically, "Flatten Gaza, send it back to Middle Ages, they need to die!"
while palestinians are crying "lift the blockade we need medicine and food." it is so bad dignity is not even high up on their list at the moment. it is a mass punishment because israeli regime does not like hamas and won't speak to them except thorough assassinations.
@Orhan Ayyüce
do you realize you are basically advocating israel keeps everything it gained thorough wars and illegal settlements against the numerous united nations resolutions and international treaties and palestinians learn to live peacefully with their oppressors as third class disowned people in their blocked open air prisons consisting of territories cut off from civilization via concrete walls and endless check points with no prospect of basic human rights? as if they don't exist with no economical and civil prospects?
1) I disagree that supporting israel is agreeing to everything israel has ever done and that nothing can ever change and no agreement can be reached. I never said any of those things and I think your assertion that I have an all or nothing choice is false on its face.
2) I keep hearing this "open air prison" line all the time. I think the conditions the palestinian people live under are bad. At the same time I remember living through the things that caused those conditions to come to being. The checkpoints, the concrete wall, etc. None of those things came into being because one day an IDF general was bored and decided "Why not?".
There were DECADES of suicide bombings in israel. Infiltrators would sneak explosives and suicide bombers out of the territories and into israeli cities. I'm not going to recount the bombings, its a waste of time, but suffice to say that israel instituted the checkpoints with the idea of protecting israeli citizens in mind. Does it create hardship on palestinians moving around the west bank? absolutely. It's terrible. But so are buses exploding in Tel Aviv, and from the perspective of the israeli government its first responsibility was to protect israelis. The concrete wall was the same thing, and was 1000x more successful than the checkpoints. Infiltration of suicide bombers and explosives materials into israel has almost completely stopped.
And of course, since their infiltrators kept getting caught, the palestinians started making artillery rockets and the rest is a decade of history in which thousands and thousands of them have been shot.
I sympathize with the plight of the average palestinian in terms of poverty. When israel restricted their movements into israel for fear of terrorist strikes, it killed a lot of the work the palestinians did have. At the same time I understand why israel did it.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do know the problem wasn't created overnight by a bored guy sitting a computer screen.
how about israel ending its blockade to gaza, recognize the elected entity of hamas, return what the settlers took in gaza, west bank and elsewhere
I hope and pray that one day there will be no blockade on gaza. I also hope and pray that Hamas stops importing weapons to use against israel. Again, there is no easy solution. It isn't credible to israelis to allow materials to move through without being checked for weapons. Multiple times Israel has caught ships and trucks filled with explosives, missiles, guns, ammo, etc. From the israeli perspective these things make the blockade necessary, and launching thousands of rockets at israel doesn't change any opinions on it.
Recognizing the entity of Hamas in what manner? In the same way Hamas recognizes israel? Ever read article 7 and 13 of the Hamas Charter? Hamas is the elected government of gaza, but that doesn't stop them from launching terrorist attacks on israel.
The west bank is a contentious issue, because its a very large chunk of land near a lot of israeli cities. I DONT support settlers, but I'm not sure what the final agreement on the west bank should look like. There must be a balance struck between both sides on the issue.
There are no settlers in gaza. Israel withdrew completely from gaza in 2005. I supported it, and still do, but its been a disaster for israeli security, just as the israeli right wing predicted.
or accept one state solution with equal rights to palestinians
Not on the table and never will be. It gives all the advantages to the palestinians and nothing to the israelis. It is not a fair solution, thus israel will never agree to it. 2 states is the way forward. If israel can't trust palestinians now with a concrete fence between the two parties, why do you think magically a one state solution will work? it would fall apart in the first week into war worse than what is going on now.
otherwise, i am glad they have their rockets to let the world know of their suffering.
The palestinians have a fine PR machine and support from much media around the world. The rockets don't let the world know about suffering, they just fall on israel as an attempt to kill civilians. They make sure Israelis want nothing to do with the palestinians, and that the palestinians can't be trusted to police their criminals. If you are glad for the launching of rockets at civilians, then every person in israel will be your opponent both at a diplomatic table and across a field of war. Decrying palestinian civilians killed and ignoring palestinian attacks on civilians is hypocrisy, and the launching of rockets themselves first degree murder.
in just this conflict alone they have killed tens of civilians many of them women and children.
Again, tragic, but accidental and largely not the norm for the operation. there were ~1550 strikes. The amount of casualties was incredibly low, and I'm thankful for it. Hamas could have ended it at any time by stopping the launch of rockets. Thats what the whole thing was about.
I suspect this line was just put in your post, though, as an appeal to emotion.
calculator,
a- your point 1 is mute because you don't propose any solution except enforcing existing conditions, status quo.
b- your point number 2 is correct. it is not somebody decided any of this over night. it was all along "systematic."
rest of your response, read my comment #1.
@Orhan
In response to:
a) I didn't propose a solution because there is no easy solution. If there was one, this whole thing would have been over long ago. Its great for people on the internet to decide "oh, well, just do this and it will all work out" as if isreal and the palestinians live in a vacuum where you can measure all the forces in the system and come up with a 100% solution that will work every time.
People are complicated. People in extreme situations even more so.
I think the solution lies with 2 states. I think the solution lies in something that builds mutual trust. But currently there isn't ANY trust on either side, and neither side is led by governments that would accept solutions the other side would agree to. If I had an answer likely to work that both sides would agree to I wouldn't be typing this out on archinect forums, thats for sure, I'd be trying to make it happen.
I can tell you for certain the solution doesn't lie with the opinions you expressed on the launching of rockets at civilians. If the rocket attacks continue a ground war in gaza is inevitable, and I have no interest in the civilian deaths that would cause at all. I am enormously pleased that it didn't happen again.
b) What you said was ambiguous, but I'd bet you're accusing israel of orchestrating palestinian attacks as excuses. I completely disagree with you if that is the case, and think that kind of thing is one of the reasons peace in our lifetimes is unlikely.
calculator,
the "systematic" bit has a lot to do with those four maps i posted earlier.
some of your points are plausible but i noticed that you never really address the root cause of all the problems which are realistically illustrated with those maps also.
i would also appreciate if you use your real name so i know whose behind of these discussions. i don't think it would be harmful in any way. we are all intelligent adults here. each time i address to a 'calculator' instead of doing the dishes my wife gets angry at me.;.)
the "systematic" bit has a lot to do with those four maps i posted earlier.
I agree there are definitely those in israel who want to hold onto as much as the west bank as they can. I also know that similarly there are those who see the ridiculousness of the situation. But, as I mentioned before, the west bank is problematic security-wise and I don't think there is any hope of convincing israel to relinquish control over it by threatening israeli cities.
As I said earlier, I'm not sure what the solution is, but it isn't what's being done right now.
some of your points are plausible
Please, tell me which are not so that I can address your concerns.
but i noticed that you never really address the root cause of all the problems which are realistically illustrated with those maps also.
Please state what you consider to be the root cause, instead of making me guess. If you're going to say its land, I'd say look at the history of the region and you'll see violence long before the state of israel and before israel was in the territories.
i would also appreciate if you use your real name so i know whose behind of these discussions. i don't think it would be harmful in any way. we are all intelligent adults here. each time i address to a 'calculator' instead of doing the dishes my wife gets angry at me.;.)
I am generally hesitant to give out my name online, but my first name is Gershon.
You should listen to your wife, though, because this conversation can wait, while making your wife wait is done at your own peril...
thank you gershon.
yes.., the root cause is the land.. quite contemporary and not so biblical.. look again to those maps.
i think it is a weak argument to relate the site specific history as the place where they always had wars. not even so. for centuries christians, jews and muslims peacefully co existed and treated each other with mutual respect. and why this war logic is used as legitimizing reason to rationalize israel's irrational actions? it is ridiculous. they had more and more lethal and fanatical racist wars in so called civilized europe where millions of innocent people were murdered systematically. look at last 100 years. and another few just recently in former yugoslavia which also involved mass murders. does that mean we can now rationalize continuity of those wars and crimes.. and shake our heads saying "look there were always wars here." and let's have more.
where is the progress then?
yes.., the root cause is the land.. quite contemporary and not so biblical.. look again to those maps.
I didn't mean biblically. I meant generally 1900s and on. There have been tensions in the region including attacks and massacres on both sides for 100 years, before Israel before the six day war, etc. The balance of your post is responding to something I never said, I'm sorry you took it to mean that.
does that mean we can now rationalize continuity of those wars and crimes.. and shake our heads saying "look there were always wars here." and let's have more
While in general you seem reasonable, orhan, doesn't this sentence smack of hypocrisy with your support of launching artillery rockets at civilian population centres You support war crimes, just the ones you like and not the others.
Don't take that as a personal attack - it isn't. I think you're dead wrong in your support of that activity but I hope you can see that the rocket attacks are neither morally justifiable nor effective at getting Palestinians what they want. Real change on both sides is required if peace is ever to be achieved.
Anyways, its getting late here and I have to be up tomorrow early. I will respond to anything you have to say tomorrow when I have some free time.
good night.
so far palestinians are not seriously accused of war crimes.., the israeli side was but ICC gave in to a technicality and US pressure. but UN was more clearer on the issue and it mainly issued a report finding israel responsible and in a small way hamas too.
have a good night, i got to get back to work..
"I sympathize with the plight of the average palestinian in terms of poverty."
i am pretty sure they thank you for your sympathy. many of them and their children can now die in peace burning or dismembered with the knowledge that there is someone who has sympathy for their "poverty". and all of that is ,of course, is of their own making since they had the audacity to fight back against an entity that is just trying to near starve them
I can propose a fool-proof solution.
Create a live feed with the death count of both parts of the conflict for the world to watch. First of all, the west will realize Israelis have killed far, far more Palestinians than the other way round. Second, the pro-Palestinian camp will realize they HAVE killed innocent people as well. Third, the world will constantly be reminded how sick and tired it has become of children dying. Killing an Israeli child will not liberate Gaza, and killing a Palestinian child will not stop the rockets against Israel.
This is the 21st century after all, it is time we realize killing people has never solved anything, and nobody is going to be wiped of the planet.
I dont know. Its going to be tough. Very honestly I dont see how any progress can be made while Netanyahu is in office. Over the course of 2013 tensions over Iran's nuclear program will be very high. Now that Romney lost the chances of an all out strike have lowered, but they havent disappeared. Hamas will continue to be played as a pawn, which is terribly discouraging. I know a little about this stuff but I am by no means an expert. If I were to suggest a course of action, though, it would be first to find a political accommodation between Hamas and Fatah. They can keep their respective authorities, but they need to arrive at an agreed set of goals and speak with one voice during negotiations. All the while the rockets need to stop. They just serve no purpose but to leach palestinians of credibility. You then agree to unconditional negotiations. I know, Netanyahu is a dick, and will do everything he can to make things not work. He will agree to settlements durring negotiations. He'll probably pass legislation in Israel to strip arabs of rights. But Palestinians must hold strong. Each one of those actions will only weaken his image in the world and weaken his position at the table. The more he seems unreasonable, the more his positions will appear so.
Personally, (again, Im not an expert,) but I would give on right of return in exchange for land in east Jerusalem settled since 1967.
Im not saying its going to work. Im certainly not saying its fair, to ask Palestinians to unilaterally disarm and turn a temporary blind eye on settlements. Im just saying it would be smart. As things stand time is against the palestinians. They need to turn the tables, and to me, renouncing violence is the surest way to change the global perception from two intractable enemies to one clearly oppressive government over a peacefully resisting people simply asking for the rights all people are entitled to.
If all of this fails and Netanyahu remains obstinant, you change gears. Dont threaten violence. Threaten surrender. Accept that you are all Israelis, and simply ask for the right to vote.
so far palestinians are not seriously accused of war crimes.., the israeli side was but ICC gave in to a technicality and US pressure. but UN was more clearer on the issue and it mainly issued a report finding israel responsible and in a small way hamas too.
Orhan you seem like a fairly reasonable person, so I cannot understand some things about your opinion.
Either attacks against civilians are legitimate or not. If they are not legitimate, then rocket fire against israeli citizens IS a warcrime. If you think they are legitimate, then I guess there isn't that much more to say and you aren't as reasonable as I thought you were.
The more I read this conversation the more tired of it I get. I've said my piece. I hope this situation turns out better than I think it will.
Orhan, you sound(ed) like a reasonable person but really you have proven to be another ignorant middle eastener (eheheheh).
it is all very amusing, this reversal of roles. israel has done a marvelous job of at least reaching stalemate..which is a win for it.
anyway, this is boring for me now as i know most people here, including oe, are either in essence nonchalant dabblers who wish to be 'partial' to the point of paralysis or simply ignorant of what is going on. it would be more honest for a person like oe to just say that they dont care. at least, zionist-symathisers are standing up for something they believe in, as evil it has proven to be. being impartial for its own sake while pretending to care ... pfft, waht an inflated fart that is.
Orhan, again. i thought you were impartial, i thought you were going to see past the countless trivial details and that really silly principle that a people have a right to retain their homes, to choose to live without fear of having their children locked up and throw to jail for decades, to live without being controlled by an alien entity that restricts their amount of food and material in order to break them down and humiliate them, that has previously stolen their homes elsewhere and driven them into gaza where it now tethers them...
no, its not possible to forgive and forget - not unless amends are made by the primary and supreme aggressor, by the people of Israel to the people of Palestine, and the affected people have been recompensated. it is not the nazis who had to make amends but the germans themselves. this is a civilized and admirable decision, an honest confrontation that has much better chances of healing wounds. otherwise, it is only normal - for most people in the region who are neither palestinians nor israelis and for many more around the world- to justify the acts of Palestinian resistance. of course real Israeli people are going to die...whether soldiers or civilians. why, you think a soldier is not a young man or woman who has a family, who suffers, who might not have been there of his or her own choice or out of an ideological conviction? I feel sad for Israelis who die - men, women, children. And when the only way you can resist is by shooting rockets to the colonized lands where resides the aggressor, thats what you do in war.
war IS a war crime. let them (the israelis) stop the war on gaza, let them address the grievances that they have caused the Palestinians and they will address the grievances that have been returned in kind (disproportionately)...thats all really. all this stupid talk of one state and two state and .... will not satiate, will not appease
I agree that would be a huge component, and one that is often overlooked. But Im sure you realize that doesn't adress the real on-the-ground realities that the palestinians live with. You can only solve issues of sovereignty and land rights at the negotiating table.
Again, this has nothing to do with my impartiality. No one there cares what I personally think, nor should they. I am, Im sure you would agree, irrelevant to this situation. I've never been to the occupied territories, so you may feel absolutely free to take my opinions with as much salt as you wish. I have however been to places and seen things in this world that compare to what they live with and I am familiar with what that does to a people. People lose hope. People become clouded by hatred. People mistake vengeance for courage. That is exactly what oppression is designed to do. Like I said, I am an outsider, but it seems an obvious truth that in a situation like this it takes one side to make the first move. One side must show the wisdom to change. This is how things changed in South Africa, and India, and Northern Ireland and in the American South. One side had the strength to stop fighting and be smart to actually solve the problem. That's all Im advocating for.
blah blah blah. what you're saying is blah blah blah. it is nearly non-sensical. vapid of any indication of realistic action and certainly devoid of any ethical valour: what you are saying is unethical.
No that is not the way things happen, not in south Africa and not in India where the rebellions instigated a wave of killing of many british and european subjects . Stop faking it already, please. People resist with violence. This is how historically people resist. It is their right to resist violentally as well , to defend themselves. Hamas is a resistance force; they are not terrorists. They got elected by the gazawians; they represent the will of the people who have lived in subhuman conditions enforced on them by Israel.
I wonder whether this was the level of discourse that happened pre apertheid, this disgusting revolting requirement -that should not exist as what follows is self evident- to justify why the victims are victims and the aggressors are aggressors.
must we really recite what we, people who have been affected by it, what we already know to this international audience that barely has a clue and yet is pompous enough to take a position or that ignores the evident to reap the benefit of shady alliances? must i tell you that i know people who had israeli soldiers come into their home and shoot all their family and they only managed to escape because they hid beneath the corpses of their parents? or people who saw a soldier smash a baby against a tree? or teenagers who were taken and never to be seen again? or a woman who used to come and help my mother do the housework who had all her children and her husband shot by the israelis in one of the lebanese palestinian camps during one of their nice trips into lebanon? she was however pregnant; she called her new son Za'al; in arabic, that means Sadness.
must we really be so vulgar?
this thread - like most political threads - has become a dialogue among the deaf, only without the sign language
simply because you are not listening, comb. or have chosen not to.
I have listened to both sides and neither side is willing to accept an iota of the other side's point of view.
You know nothing whatsoever of my own views on this matter. I don't choose to engage in this debate because neither perspective is going to be adopted by the other side and this continuing bickering - albeit about a very important matter - produces nothing besides injured feelings.
you have already expressed your view by writing that post of yours. you're calling me deaf, right? no, i hear what oe has to say and i have a lot to say agains it. thats not being deaf. you are deaf for not being able to discriminate, to follow the reason or point out to the lack thereof.
plus, mine was not a political point. i am talking murder, theft, injustice...so on and so forth, that old boring stuff. i am not talking elections, right wing left wing. i'm talk experiences that are known to me and that are tangible.
but you may remain unsoiled and make blanket statements. you have that luxury. your people are not being killed after all.
1. People are dying / have died on both sides;
2. Both sides accuse the other side of being ignorant of the "facts";
3. I accused both sides of being deaf.
This is a huge waste of everybody's time.
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