Theres been a great deal of controversy over this proposal, mostly related to its primary backers, Tablighi Jamaat. Any Londoners know any more about the current outlook for the proposal?
Christiane amanpour recently did an interesting report on CNN titled 'The War Within', discussing the both the difficulties the UK is having reconciling its own simmering distrust and the internal debate between radical and moderate Muslims. What do you think about the proposal? A chance for real pluralism and communication or a worsening of the social divide?
Mega-Mosque or Mega-Church/ either way you'll be surrounded by lunatics - vote no on the zoning ordinance. Keep this shit in the dessert - be it Texas or Arabia: you dont want the religious crazies f*kn up London as well
"Mega-Mosque or Mega-Church/ either way you'll be surrounded by lunatics - vote no on the zoning ordinance. Keep this shit in the dessert - be it Texas or Arabia: you dont want the religious crazies f*kn up London as well"
Is this really a solution though? Can we afford to be so flippant about these problems?
something like this mosque would be a good step for introducing or fertilising the progressive side of islam.
islam practiced in healthy non fanatical levels is a very practical and adoptable religion according to its scholars. it pretty much sets up the civil structure in its basic levels. taxation, inheritence, civic responsibilities, family law, etc., more so than majority christiandom, and par with judaism and nevertheless in need of overhaul and re structuring/updating.
the proposed design is alarmingly derivetive and at that level one would want it to be directly from zaha herself (it is that derivative of her work). however it does promise traditional elements like courtyards and open areas for worship (i don't know how that would work with london's rainy weather. however, it is not my problem but the designers.)
bigger point, like i said earlier, would be the cultural pragnations this design seems to offer.
for me, it is way heavy handed if it is in fact for 70k people. i think is a partly fabricated/exaggerated number by combining other functions for appealing to opposition etc.
it is common for large mosques to have schools, hospitals, staff housing, shops and more, within their plans and conceptions.
mosque of suleyman from 17 th. century in istanbul is complete with these program and there are many others like it throughout the islamic world, past and present.
a mosque like this (given the size and scale issues resolved, if any) would perhaps be fantastic in terms of helping with islam's late fanatical image in the west. and, it would set one of the better paradigms and be one of the positive sparks for long due reforms within the faith and ultimately lead to a better world.
of course it shouldn't have any connection to any dark forces in it's funding and purpose.
that, as mentioned in the articles, might not be an accurate fact to begin with anyway.
I dont have a concrete opinion yes or no on this project, but Im inclined to agree with the above. The architect has stated the accounts of 40 and 70 thousand are hugely exaggerated, that it may never be filled to absolute capacity even during large events, and that that isnt really the point anyway. The response to this thing seems to be very reactionary, and the pretence of practical arguments against seems very often to veil just distrust and xenophobia. I think most of the problems weve created between the west and Islam stem from this presumed superiority and legitimacy. Without saying it we expect we can just sweep it under the table, that sooner or later people will come around, forget thier culture and turn into nice secular westerners. We offer no respect as equals at a table for dialog, and it only gives legitimacy to fundamentalists. I think a project like this could give the Muslim population living in england a consolidated place to discuss their future. Having a legitimate outlet and platform seems like it could only diffuse the arguments of radical voices.
i have a question. i looked through the architects website at their projects. i didnt look at every single project, but i only found about three built projects, all of which were small scale, interior build outs or residential. the question is how does a firm that doesnt seem to have built very much, possibly take on a project of this magnitude?
"The response to this thing seems to be very reactionary, and the pretence of practical arguments against seems very often to veil just distrust and xenophobia."
Theres only one reason to build such a large garthering place - to intimidate, or to show off: The Catholic church did the same thing for centuries with their cathedrals and the southern Baptists are doing this now with their mega churches. Progressive Islam would be much better served by fixing their brothers' problems that cause them to blow up a bus each day than trying to impress the west with their architecture. Progresive Islam will never be accepted in the west unless the split off from middle east entirely - like a reformation or fix their home countries' problems.
Maybe this mosque is over-sized, I don't know. But there's certainly a shortage of mosques in Europe, causing people to gather in over-crowded places like basements and barracks. And I'm getting REALLY tired of the completely empty arguments against the construction of new mosques. Why shouldn't muslims be allowed in city centres just like any other institution, company or religion? As long as it's in the regulations? I prefer a city which manifests its diversity and progress.
a-f, this has nothing to do with being against diversity - this has everything to do with building a football stadium in a city center, but unlike a football stadium, its the domain of 1 group. It wouldnt be any better if it was a non-muslim group - and specifically this idea of meking mega holy sites is disturbing to me - its like a religious pissing match, and then eventually the Catholics will start going building crazy again and then were all f*cked. And as for the muslims not being welcomed in city centers, that has a lot to do with certain muslim groups' zest for blowing city centers up, a fact that doesnt do much for the image of Islam no matter how mainstream the majority are. I'll be honest, Im not afraid to admit, when I see Amish people or orthodox jew I get creeped out, they look weird, same with devot muslims with burqua and scraggly long beards. People - its 2007 - the medieval dress code is over - get a haircut and some threads man, your bringing everyone else down. And father murphy - try a woman for once and a while.
this has nothing to do with being against diversity - this has everything to do with building a football stadium in a city center, but unlike a football stadium, its the domain of 1 group
I'm not talking about this project specifically. I don't know anything about the site, the surroundings etc. My problem is that muslim groups in Europe have enormous problems getting funding, let alone public support, for building mosques. As soon as plans like these pop up people start to find reasons against them, using arguments that could be applied to ANY kind of new building. I mean, how many buildings are not the domain of one group?
And as for the muslims not being welcomed in city centers, that has a lot to do with certain muslim groups' zest for blowing city centers up, a fact that doesnt do much for the image of Islam no matter how mainstream the majority are.
Ah, but maybe an open institution would be a ground for public exchange between secular and religious groups? Couldn't this improve the image?
People - its 2007 - the medieval dress code is over
So you're not against diversity, yeah right. Can't we just accept that people can dress differently, now that it's 2007? I'm not religious, but can't believe how humanism has turned from being a belief in the acceptance of other people's opinions, to a fervent anti-religious interest group.
For example, just look at Medit whining away here because he wants to live in a perfectly quiet city centre. If this kind of reasoning is legitimate, I'd rather see that the spanish exchange students that live next to me (and all other spanish people of course) would be forced to move out in the countryside so that they can't disturb my night sleep anymore.
a-f,
if you start by not calling me "spanish" but "catalan" I will start to accept that your ridiculously, politically correct "whinings" on this thread have some real interest (cause that will show me that you have "real" knowledge of the particular cultural present-conditions/past-traditions/potential-future situations of the society linving in Barcelona and Catalonia in general)...
your intellectualized generalizations and utopic dreams of a multi-religious paradisiac society are pretty beautiful but you're not being enough "realistic" with the complexity of these situations - at least the complexities I can detect in the particular catalan society I live in... (maybe the Netherlands are something completely different -but I don't think so-)
the "quietness" I was referreing to was a consequence of ONE particular situation in relation to a very singular public religious equipment -a minaret-, like this mega-mosque in London, not a bunch of young spanish or japanese or argentinean drunk assholes -atheists, agnostics, catholics or muslims- making noise at 4am in the morning... that was a pretty absurd comparation
in fact I'm starting to think the sort of ambiental quietness I was claiming for has more to do with Richard T.T. Forman's "ecology of the [natuarl and manmade] landscapes" than with stupid religious groups -of ANY religion- disturbing the progress of a 21st society with antique, absurd massive celebrations/rituals... but that's just another story, lots of people in architecture talk about sustainability regarding natural systems but how about social systems?.. putting a huge mosque in the middle of an european urban core, like it or not, has the same effects of putting a factory in the middle a protected natural park...
I would like to know what kind of cultural "richness" can we take profit of from the "diversity" caused by mixing our values -both of religious origins and not- with those of the Islamic societies... because I can tell you, from what I've seen here in BCN area their "way of living" is far from being "modellic"... ours, european way of life, also have issues to be corrected to keep it "socially sustainable" but it have way more chances than these religiously-based societies to go somewhere..
I have not seen yet absolutely nothing worthy of "recycling" for our society from their attitudes and values towards [semi-slaved] women and children, towards minorities (different sexual orientations, etc), towards scientific and medical issues (blood transfusions), etc, etc...
these people live really in a preterite world -and they have absolutely all the rights to live in whatever kind of world they want to live in- but if their contribution in our more-than-welcomed-diversified-society has to be going 5 centuries back in modern history then I don't need this "diversity"...
we need new additions and solutions for this utopical diversity of the future, not old obstacles
[excuse my poor english.. (and my radicality..) but you get my point, this is really a very serious matter.. as we see here in the news almost every day]
Hey Medit, I admit I was provoking a bit as to get you involved in this discussion as well. It seems it worked pretty well! ;) Anyways, I don't know whether my neighbours are catalan, galician or even basque. And I don't want them thrown out either, but I was using this as a comparison of how absurd the argumentation surrounding mosques often can be. Besides eventual sound disturbance, there is also the fear of increased traffic (wouldn't this also apply to shopping centres then?) or "exclusivity" (as if all office buildings are 100% accessible?). I'm not interested in how islam, christianity or football measures up to the contemporary secular state - new construction of buildings should be tested against regulations, and not personal beliefs. I'm not utopian, but pragmatic. Although frankly.... I also think that Europe has to finally admit that it has a growing muslim population, perhaps see it integrated in a kind of "european islam" in the spirit of Tariq Ramadan.
actually, it's always a pleasure reading your "whinings" a-f... :p
maybe new buildings should be tested against regulations instead of personal beliefs, but legal regulations are proposed and written by political parties and political parties are based mostly in groups that get together because they share personal beliefs, right? so, in the end, laws and regulations depend on subjective issues imposed by certain (temporary) majorities over (temporary) minorities...
regulations on which buildings should be built, where they should be built, with which use, etc, therefore -and even if they are usually tested first against supposedly "impartial" academicists (in this case, urbanists, architects, sociologists, etc)- come from certain ideologies (personal beliefs turned into dogmas) rather than pragmatic, objective issues...
unless we hire robots to tell us what to build in our cities we, religious and non-religious europeans (and them, islamists in their cities, buddists in their cities, indigenous tribes in their jungles, etc.) will always have to depend on a certain "view" of the world -that often is opposed to other views from other societies- to decide how to develop our cities or what kind of buildings we want in our neighbourhoods...
and merging so much different social views in just one big planetary society is too difficult (and I'm not sure if it is desirable to reduce the different societies into a one single, homogeneous and uniform amalgam) as we have seen in the past.
Jun 20, 07 6:41 am ·
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London Tablighi Jamaat Mosque
Theres been a great deal of controversy over this proposal, mostly related to its primary backers, Tablighi Jamaat. Any Londoners know any more about the current outlook for the proposal?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article597161.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1879749,00.html
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23394453-details/Architects+sacked+over+designs+for+huge+mosque/article.do
http://www.myaa-arq.com/ >>> Project >>> Abbey Mills
Christiane amanpour recently did an interesting report on CNN titled 'The War Within', discussing the both the difficulties the UK is having reconciling its own simmering distrust and the internal debate between radical and moderate Muslims. What do you think about the proposal? A chance for real pluralism and communication or a worsening of the social divide?
who's the designer, Zaha?
Mega-Mosque or Mega-Church/ either way you'll be surrounded by lunatics - vote no on the zoning ordinance. Keep this shit in the dessert - be it Texas or Arabia: you dont want the religious crazies f*kn up London as well
Texas
Mecca
cool design though, but still - not worth it - brings down property values
platypus, you should be aware that Texas is not a desert. It's an armpit. I should know, I was born there.
Its by MYAA. The walk-through is quite fun to watch check the site
Square vs. Spiral
More like it.
Excellent! Maybe they'll have Sir Rushdie cut the ribbon at the openning.
"Mega-Mosque or Mega-Church/ either way you'll be surrounded by lunatics - vote no on the zoning ordinance. Keep this shit in the dessert - be it Texas or Arabia: you dont want the religious crazies f*kn up London as well"
Is this really a solution though? Can we afford to be so flippant about these problems?
something like this mosque would be a good step for introducing or fertilising the progressive side of islam.
islam practiced in healthy non fanatical levels is a very practical and adoptable religion according to its scholars. it pretty much sets up the civil structure in its basic levels. taxation, inheritence, civic responsibilities, family law, etc., more so than majority christiandom, and par with judaism and nevertheless in need of overhaul and re structuring/updating.
the proposed design is alarmingly derivetive and at that level one would want it to be directly from zaha herself (it is that derivative of her work). however it does promise traditional elements like courtyards and open areas for worship (i don't know how that would work with london's rainy weather. however, it is not my problem but the designers.)
bigger point, like i said earlier, would be the cultural pragnations this design seems to offer.
for me, it is way heavy handed if it is in fact for 70k people. i think is a partly fabricated/exaggerated number by combining other functions for appealing to opposition etc.
it is common for large mosques to have schools, hospitals, staff housing, shops and more, within their plans and conceptions.
mosque of suleyman from 17 th. century in istanbul is complete with these program and there are many others like it throughout the islamic world, past and present.
a mosque like this (given the size and scale issues resolved, if any) would perhaps be fantastic in terms of helping with islam's late fanatical image in the west. and, it would set one of the better paradigms and be one of the positive sparks for long due reforms within the faith and ultimately lead to a better world.
of course it shouldn't have any connection to any dark forces in it's funding and purpose.
that, as mentioned in the articles, might not be an accurate fact to begin with anyway.
I dont have a concrete opinion yes or no on this project, but Im inclined to agree with the above. The architect has stated the accounts of 40 and 70 thousand are hugely exaggerated, that it may never be filled to absolute capacity even during large events, and that that isnt really the point anyway. The response to this thing seems to be very reactionary, and the pretence of practical arguments against seems very often to veil just distrust and xenophobia. I think most of the problems weve created between the west and Islam stem from this presumed superiority and legitimacy. Without saying it we expect we can just sweep it under the table, that sooner or later people will come around, forget thier culture and turn into nice secular westerners. We offer no respect as equals at a table for dialog, and it only gives legitimacy to fundamentalists. I think a project like this could give the Muslim population living in england a consolidated place to discuss their future. Having a legitimate outlet and platform seems like it could only diffuse the arguments of radical voices.
Is this really so naive?
i have a question. i looked through the architects website at their projects. i didnt look at every single project, but i only found about three built projects, all of which were small scale, interior build outs or residential. the question is how does a firm that doesnt seem to have built very much, possibly take on a project of this magnitude?
"The response to this thing seems to be very reactionary, and the pretence of practical arguments against seems very often to veil just distrust and xenophobia."
Theres only one reason to build such a large garthering place - to intimidate, or to show off: The Catholic church did the same thing for centuries with their cathedrals and the southern Baptists are doing this now with their mega churches. Progressive Islam would be much better served by fixing their brothers' problems that cause them to blow up a bus each day than trying to impress the west with their architecture. Progresive Islam will never be accepted in the west unless the split off from middle east entirely - like a reformation or fix their home countries' problems.
Maybe this mosque is over-sized, I don't know. But there's certainly a shortage of mosques in Europe, causing people to gather in over-crowded places like basements and barracks. And I'm getting REALLY tired of the completely empty arguments against the construction of new mosques. Why shouldn't muslims be allowed in city centres just like any other institution, company or religion? As long as it's in the regulations? I prefer a city which manifests its diversity and progress.
why the islamic diaspora in the uk? did the brits have many islamic colonies? i guess they did didn't they. carry on.
a-f, this has nothing to do with being against diversity - this has everything to do with building a football stadium in a city center, but unlike a football stadium, its the domain of 1 group. It wouldnt be any better if it was a non-muslim group - and specifically this idea of meking mega holy sites is disturbing to me - its like a religious pissing match, and then eventually the Catholics will start going building crazy again and then were all f*cked. And as for the muslims not being welcomed in city centers, that has a lot to do with certain muslim groups' zest for blowing city centers up, a fact that doesnt do much for the image of Islam no matter how mainstream the majority are. I'll be honest, Im not afraid to admit, when I see Amish people or orthodox jew I get creeped out, they look weird, same with devot muslims with burqua and scraggly long beards. People - its 2007 - the medieval dress code is over - get a haircut and some threads man, your bringing everyone else down. And father murphy - try a woman for once and a while.
I'm not talking about this project specifically. I don't know anything about the site, the surroundings etc. My problem is that muslim groups in Europe have enormous problems getting funding, let alone public support, for building mosques. As soon as plans like these pop up people start to find reasons against them, using arguments that could be applied to ANY kind of new building. I mean, how many buildings are not the domain of one group?
And as for the muslims not being welcomed in city centers, that has a lot to do with certain muslim groups' zest for blowing city centers up, a fact that doesnt do much for the image of Islam no matter how mainstream the majority are.
Ah, but maybe an open institution would be a ground for public exchange between secular and religious groups? Couldn't this improve the image?
People - its 2007 - the medieval dress code is over
So you're not against diversity, yeah right. Can't we just accept that people can dress differently, now that it's 2007? I'm not religious, but can't believe how humanism has turned from being a belief in the acceptance of other people's opinions, to a fervent anti-religious interest group.
For example, just look at Medit whining away here because he wants to live in a perfectly quiet city centre. If this kind of reasoning is legitimate, I'd rather see that the spanish exchange students that live next to me (and all other spanish people of course) would be forced to move out in the countryside so that they can't disturb my night sleep anymore.
a-f,
if you start by not calling me "spanish" but "catalan" I will start to accept that your ridiculously, politically correct "whinings" on this thread have some real interest (cause that will show me that you have "real" knowledge of the particular cultural present-conditions/past-traditions/potential-future situations of the society linving in Barcelona and Catalonia in general)...
your intellectualized generalizations and utopic dreams of a multi-religious paradisiac society are pretty beautiful but you're not being enough "realistic" with the complexity of these situations - at least the complexities I can detect in the particular catalan society I live in... (maybe the Netherlands are something completely different -but I don't think so-)
the "quietness" I was referreing to was a consequence of ONE particular situation in relation to a very singular public religious equipment -a minaret-, like this mega-mosque in London, not a bunch of young spanish or japanese or argentinean drunk assholes -atheists, agnostics, catholics or muslims- making noise at 4am in the morning... that was a pretty absurd comparation
in fact I'm starting to think the sort of ambiental quietness I was claiming for has more to do with Richard T.T. Forman's "ecology of the [natuarl and manmade] landscapes" than with stupid religious groups -of ANY religion- disturbing the progress of a 21st society with antique, absurd massive celebrations/rituals... but that's just another story, lots of people in architecture talk about sustainability regarding natural systems but how about social systems?.. putting a huge mosque in the middle of an european urban core, like it or not, has the same effects of putting a factory in the middle a protected natural park...
I would like to know what kind of cultural "richness" can we take profit of from the "diversity" caused by mixing our values -both of religious origins and not- with those of the Islamic societies... because I can tell you, from what I've seen here in BCN area their "way of living" is far from being "modellic"... ours, european way of life, also have issues to be corrected to keep it "socially sustainable" but it have way more chances than these religiously-based societies to go somewhere..
I have not seen yet absolutely nothing worthy of "recycling" for our society from their attitudes and values towards [semi-slaved] women and children, towards minorities (different sexual orientations, etc), towards scientific and medical issues (blood transfusions), etc, etc...
these people live really in a preterite world -and they have absolutely all the rights to live in whatever kind of world they want to live in- but if their contribution in our more-than-welcomed-diversified-society has to be going 5 centuries back in modern history then I don't need this "diversity"...
we need new additions and solutions for this utopical diversity of the future, not old obstacles
[excuse my poor english.. (and my radicality..) but you get my point, this is really a very serious matter.. as we see here in the news almost every day]
Hey Medit, I admit I was provoking a bit as to get you involved in this discussion as well. It seems it worked pretty well! ;) Anyways, I don't know whether my neighbours are catalan, galician or even basque. And I don't want them thrown out either, but I was using this as a comparison of how absurd the argumentation surrounding mosques often can be. Besides eventual sound disturbance, there is also the fear of increased traffic (wouldn't this also apply to shopping centres then?) or "exclusivity" (as if all office buildings are 100% accessible?). I'm not interested in how islam, christianity or football measures up to the contemporary secular state - new construction of buildings should be tested against regulations, and not personal beliefs. I'm not utopian, but pragmatic. Although frankly.... I also think that Europe has to finally admit that it has a growing muslim population, perhaps see it integrated in a kind of "european islam" in the spirit of Tariq Ramadan.
actually, it's always a pleasure reading your "whinings" a-f... :p
maybe new buildings should be tested against regulations instead of personal beliefs, but legal regulations are proposed and written by political parties and political parties are based mostly in groups that get together because they share personal beliefs, right? so, in the end, laws and regulations depend on subjective issues imposed by certain (temporary) majorities over (temporary) minorities...
regulations on which buildings should be built, where they should be built, with which use, etc, therefore -and even if they are usually tested first against supposedly "impartial" academicists (in this case, urbanists, architects, sociologists, etc)- come from certain ideologies (personal beliefs turned into dogmas) rather than pragmatic, objective issues...
unless we hire robots to tell us what to build in our cities we, religious and non-religious europeans (and them, islamists in their cities, buddists in their cities, indigenous tribes in their jungles, etc.) will always have to depend on a certain "view" of the world -that often is opposed to other views from other societies- to decide how to develop our cities or what kind of buildings we want in our neighbourhoods...
and merging so much different social views in just one big planetary society is too difficult (and I'm not sure if it is desirable to reduce the different societies into a one single, homogeneous and uniform amalgam) as we have seen in the past.
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