mighty you may want to keep your gripes re: the postal service to a minimal - its been a while since anyone has gone well...postal.

101!!

i still need to copy the last chapter myriam but when i do i'd be glad to send to ya. might take a few days as i think the only late day they are open in thursday. email me your address!

sweet! thank you, vado!!!!

ok, say, today is the day to start reading. i will start a separate thread, keep book comments - those related to What Is Art there and post here for book nominations - Steven, you're on the clock, and the fact that you have two gorgeous kids and a wife and a new/remodel of your home, doesn't let you off the hook - j/k btw - and other comments...

OKAY?

GO!

TAG, you're it.

oh, i forgot, if the floating green head or another editor supreme would like to pin the ABC - Beuys thread or color code it please be my guest.

thank you!

beta

beta, oh ABC Master, I fell out of the loop because of my many travels. Can I join on the next book?

you can join anytime, the book is light on pages...dubk, but yes, SW is the next decider...

me too vado! i haven't been able to get it.

Thought about this thread...

So, I think the first book proved to be difficult to get. But I would enjoy picking up with Steve's suggestion...

Is there still as much interest in doing this sort of thing on Archinect?

PM me and i'll add you

i'm on page 80 what are the arrangements for discussion? did anyone else read it?

I passed on this round because I had a couple of /exams/ to finish up.

But I'm interested in reading the thread on this one (if it exists) and joining on for the next book.

finished!

for anyone interested in trying this again, i just started 'edifice complex' by deyan sudjic.

this one promises to be easy to come by (it's at the chain stores, even) and inexpensive ($16 paperback).

i've seen others accuse this book of being obvious/simplistic, but 9 pages in it's apparent that's not the case.

anyone in?

I just requested a copy of it from my library, so I'll try to participate in this round.

You may have a hard time getting people with enough time to read because of all the holiday stuff coming up that seems to suck free time.

I don't think it matters if the book is obvious or simplistic; it can still serve as a starting point for a good discussion.

i'm going to do this round as well. and it's at the library. i love the library!

okay, I'm in... we're on the way to the library right now.

strike that, reverse it. All public libraries are closed for the holiday, but Borders appears to have it.

so far, so good. it's a pretty fast read, which is good because i get to read for about 15-20 minutes in bed each night before i crash.

i would be very interested to hear what yall think of the book. i liked dejan's stuff way back when he was talking about urbanism and blowing off jane jacobs (surprisingly, he made sense too)...but most folks i know think he is a lightweight...so would be nice to know if i am only one who thinks he has a point....

er...count me in.

hrm...I thought this book would be more about Donald Trump, less about Saddam Hussein. It's definitely deeper than I'm used to (you could call me a lightweight reader).

so far i don't think he's a lightweight but i DO think he's writing for a layperson audience - not for architect-types necessarily.

i'm glad there aren't pictures. his descriptions of the subject buildings (i'm on the hitler chapter) require that you attempt to conjure them in your head.

I'm in Steven, good read so far...

sounds inriguing, i'm in, i'll try to nab it at the library tomorrow.

i don't know what kind of timeframe to put on this, so i'll just keep you guys posted re: where i am in the book. i personally don't have anything against some running commentary WHILE i'm still reading it.

Steven, I'm still in the game, but I'll admit - I'm a slow reader. (I'm still on the Hitler chapter.)

I'm finding the book to be a history lesson told from the perspective of the architect.

i got pretty well into it during my enforced rural isolation over the holiday.

while the tone is certainly one of architectural knowledge, i'd stop short of saying it's from the perspective of the architect. sudjic is pretty darn critical of many of these architects, and not just of their designs but of their personalities and motives. when i think about projects i've done and consider a person like sudjic trying to interpret my motives, i cringe because a lot of what i've done has very little of MY intention at all.

the tone is confusing: a little demeaning sometimes - treating some of the architects as helpless puppets - and condemning at other times - as if other architects had full control over what they would produce. he seems to want it both ways - or one way or the other - when i'm sure the actual circumstances are all much more nuanced.

the chapter on the wallace k harrison > rockefeller relationship is pretty fascinating. i might read that one again.

finished it! will probably read parts again. i read straight through but saw some great quotables, so i want to mark it up some.

crap. so now it's been so long that i hardly remember what i might want to talk about. if this discussion comes back and hovers at the top a little, maybe i'll pull the book back out and we can get this chat going.

now i'm reading 'the world is flat' (version 3.0? wtf?). not sure how i feel about it. friedman's an annoying writer, that's for sure. it's like he wants to be my best friend but is also trying to sell me something. interesting observations, but... well, i should finish it.

steven - i am still in the process of reading the edifice complex. it's been very slow going. so far, i agree with you on the comments you made. i am about to start the chapter on rockefeller.

SW the World is Flat made me angry. I put it down about halfway through and have yet to be able to pick it back up. Just started Cradle to Cradle the other day. We'll see how that goes.

I'm with tunamelt (more or less) on Friedman and "The World Is Flat." I'd say more annoyed than angry, but in the same general state of disliking the author enough that I quit the book and didn't finish it (and I rarely bail on a book).

I've got the Sudjic book here at my desk. I'll try to crack it this week so I can jump in on the discussion. Thanks for re-starting the thread.

Sudjic's The Edifice Complex... so I got this a couple weeks ago, and thought I'd bring back this relic in case anyone wanted to talk about it.

I have some similar thoughts to Steven. I too found the lack of pattern confusing (Steven "wanting it both ways"). Not that the intention was to prove anything, in the end I think we were pretty much left with some interesting history, and that's about it. Though, I definately think, if I was given an opportunity to wield so much "power" as these architects had, I would give the examples in this book careful consideration.

However, I was dissapointed by the lack of argument for or against the "power" architecture ultimately had. In my mind, it seemed like and ego versus another ego. What was really gained/lost in all these stories? Sudjic did get this right with the specific Hitler example of the treaty (I'm forgetting who and what was supposedly beaten into submission by the long walk to Hitlers desk, but I think the reaction to the various examples was missing.

Regarding Steven's comment about the particular architects and their egos, I have a feeling that Sudjic sees the essence of an architect, perhaps the drive to become one as part of that ego that he looks down upon, what an architect can actually accomplish, is not really of consequence. So, being Hitlers right hand architect, and controlling the 9/11 site, are both ambitions that stem from this architectural greed. (Which he would never out and out say.) What the architect compromises is different from case to case. Now, our own work (joe architect), is different in the sense that we are really never in the position of these architects. We certainly aren't working in this large scale "playground." But we do champion ideas that are important us as individuals occasionally. So our Tienamen Square is perhaps a detail or whatever, and our intentions I hope aren't always directly tied to political or economic goals. I guess there's now that little voice in the back of my mind, why do I really want to do this or that?

Overall, a good read. Some fascinating facts. And I really wasn't paying attention to Leibeskind during the 9/11 site project, but I found that "change" intriguing. Unfortunately, I really wasn't expecting just straight history. The questions and challenges that Sudjic brings up in his summation are really what I wanted him to talk about all along. (I know, selfish architect.) I do like the insight into the changing "systems" of developing architecture. That what that system is really doesn't make a difference. But the emphasis of that particular "system" at that particular time is what gives the architectural world a "power." (architecture as fashion)

oh, i wrote too much...

oh... and next up for me is Dostoyevsky's Notes from Underground and The Ethical Architect (a dilemma of contemporary practice)...

not too much at all, postal. thanks for bringing the thread back.

if any positive has come out of reading this book for me, beyond the history lesson, it's to be more aware of those things you bring up: what are my motives in the development of a project? how much is ego? how much is personal values? what are my clients' motives, values, and to what extent is a project about their ego?

one of the best projects we've got going right now DEFINITELY has both our and the clients' egos stamped all over it - and that's not necessarily a bad thing, imo. the ego-less projects end up fairly bland and not something that anyone will care about 15 yrs from now. they're problem-solving; not value-making.

so maybe investing more of yourself in a project - both from the client and architect role - is an oddly skewed way of pursuing sustainability and public responsibility. buildings with longevity - especially if they become recognized community landmarks are, after all, the best way we can use construction resources.

is that The Ethical Architect by tom spector? great book. i would almost consider reading that one again.

the best part is the broader thinking and analysis of 'who are the stakeholders' in any given project.

see... now, it seems like we're talking about is using the powers of architecture for good, rather than evil. I guess...well, now i totally just twisted my thought in a knot.

it seems to me that there is this ego at play in each and every project that "matters" to someone (owner, architect, etc.), just as you cite. it is only in the historical context that we determine whether these people are smart, composed and benevolent, or just plain madmen. It would seem as though Sudjic emphasized the latter. (or perhaps the stories of failure were more compelling to me) Perhaps I misunderstood Sudjics intentions a bit. Mabye he never really made the argument that architecture is an important part of power, or that architects intentions themselves are an important part in fueling that power. Perhaps he was just bringing to light certain historical facts that somewhat relate in which architecture was thought to have power. hmmm... and wasn't there a presidential library thread...

and yup, the next book is spector's book. should be good, and i probably could have used it 8 months ago!

postal brought this up, so in case the thought strikes, perhaps another stab? i am about ready to crack open my first delanda, but perhaps this material is already dated??

remember when this was a good idea?

there has been a lot of talk lately about how the digital is eclipsing the book - the kindle/ipad, the bankruptcy of borders, etc - but very little about how the book can overcome by being better.

the problem is that, in some cases, books are getting worse. maybe even just becoming compilations of printed out digital files instead of some value-added artifact.

case-in-point: i'm a career-long fan of perspecta. this publication always seems to have its finger on the pulse of what's happening in the architecture world at-large. each time i've purchased the new one, it's defined a way of thinking about what i do all over again.

so i'm pretty disappointed in the one i've been struggling through lately - perspecta 42, the real. it's just not nearly up to par with previous publications. a lot of the text is unreadable garbage, and then it's presented in such a way that meaning is further obscured. on top of all - it's ugly! when compared with recent ones - 'monster' (40?) for example, which was a brilliant compilation of the work of the time, and presented as a beautiful and beguiling object - it's just not nearly the same thing.

i won't discount all of 42. as usual, there are still some gems. but the overall character of the thing is just not going to sustain this book-based series when most of what is inside it would have been better to read on-line.