It's just like when old Ronnie died how everybody suddenly forgot about Iran-Contra and all the rest of his BS. We as a culture have a hard time speaking ill of the dead.
you know the saying, it takes very little to encourage evil people to do evil things, but only religion can get a good person to do evil things.
sadly, falwell was preching too often to the choir. something about religion can really turn good people into scary monsters... my step-father for one...
I also like how everyone is saying that he "apologized" for his lovely 9/11 statement, when what he really did was more of a Harry Shearer Apologies of the Week(TM) "I'm sorry I offended anyone with the ideas I still hold true and express openly to my flock".
it just kind of dawned on me... when i was really young and my mom would drive us to church, we would listen to the "gospel hour" with jerry. theyre doing a bit on him on npr. i just had deja vu. bizarre.
ewuhh... I think ill have similar experiences when sean hannity dies and they're talking about him on NPR +i. I think my moms still listens to him in the car.
talk about hate and beating a guy when he is down .... you guys are savages. i don't know much about falwell, other than to say he apparently stood up for what he believed in and perhaps crossed into politics too much. he said some outlandish things no doubt, but i still admire his core belief in the Holy Bible as the word of God. of course if you have no faith that God exists, then it really doesn't matter what you think because ultimately there are no consequences upon death (heaven or hell).
i went to an HBCU... im white. a few times i heard some of these same stereotypes, racist, and 'prejudiced against gays' remarks from the older southern black male professors as jerry falwell said. it's so weird how falwell said out loud some things that are ingrained into much of the south... yet it is viewed so differently in other places. these same professors outwardly made statements that they did not agree with falwell... but sit in their class for an hour and find out what they really believe.
i dont agree with either side. but his viewpoints are very laced into the south.
sorry tenn, i just really like it when bad people go away and Falwell was one of the worst christians i've ever seen. I have some hard-core christians in my family i don't think Jerry's interpretation of the holy texts represents most christians beliefs of a loving, mericiful God.
I'm more pissed at what he and pat robertson did to help change the republican party from a more libertarian standpoint to a more socially conservative one.
i dont think he was trying to represent christianity in a pure sense. i dont even think that is possible- to be completely removed from one's surroundings in order to have a pure viewpoint. what i do think was that the gospel and deep southern views was laced into his religion. he was a product of his surroundings. no doubt he took it to another level... but regardless, you can't separate where he was raised from what he believed.
The south has still got some problems, but at least they're open about their hatreds and ignorance. There's alot of people in this country that don't hail from south of the mason-dixon that probably, in their heart-of-hearts agreed with Ol' Jerry.
exactly apurimac. the south is pretty bad still... even VA, where falwell is from.
in fact, it wasnt until 1967 that interrace marriage was allowed (lookup Loving v. Virginia)! that is freakin insane! and considering falwell was born in '33 i think they said... i mean of course he had all of these deep-rooted prejudices.
jerry wasn't a great example of christianity (understatement) and
maybe a hateful man in a lot of ways... but having lost two close
relatives in the past two years i find it hard to rejoice in the death
of another person. regardless of how bad a human being he may
have been..he was someone's father, brother, uncle, grandfather,
friend etc. there are people who are in mourning right now because
they cared for/about this man.
i find it difficult to dance on anyone's grave really...just for the
simple thought that it makes me sad to think that someone, someday
may be happy to hear that i've died.
yeah, i hear exactly where you're coming from larslarson.
however,
he was a public figure (and a very public figure @ that). he chose to make himself a public figure (he was quoted as saying that preachers need to be "media savvy" and that he "used the media" to his advantage).
therefore we could only know him through the ridiculous and hateful statements that he'd made.
so, pardon the vulgarity, but fuck him. really, i don't think the world has lost anyone of value.
i understand cris... i think it's very possible to hate what this
man stood for and find what he said to be distasteful to put
it kindly. just not personally willing to take that extra step.
i guess i'm glad there's one less televangelist for people to
use as their reason for hating christians/religion etc.
as you said i feel for his family and friends...
i guess every time i hear of someone dieing it just reminds me
of my own mortality and fills me with a certain amount of
melancholy.
some perspective from a decent writer and sometimes confounding individual...but i can respect him on this point.
Faith-Based Fraud
Jerry Falwell's foul rantings prove you can get away with anything if you have "Reverend" in front of your name.
By Christopher Hitchens
The Rev. Jerry Falwell
The discovery of the carcass of Jerry Falwell on the floor of an obscure office in Virginia has almost zero significance, except perhaps for two categories of the species labeled "credulous idiot." The first such category consists of those who expected Falwell (and themselves) to be bodily raptured out of the biosphere and assumed into the heavens, leaving pilotless planes and driverless trucks and taxis to crash with their innocent victims as collateral damage. This group is so stupid and uncultured that it may perhaps be forgiven. It is so far "left behind" that almost its only pleasure is to gloat at the idea of others being abandoned in the same condition.
The second such category is of slightly more importance, because it consists of the editors, producers, publicists, and a host of other media riffraff who allowed Falwell to prove, almost every week, that there is no vileness that cannot be freely uttered by a man whose name is prefaced with the word Reverend. Try this: Call a TV station and tell them that you know the Antichrist is already on earth and is an adult Jewish male. See how far you get. Then try the same thing and add that you are the Rev. Jim-Bob Vermin. "Why, Reverend, come right on the show!" What a fool Don Imus was. If he had paid the paltry few bucks to make himself a certified clergyman, he could be jeering and sneering to the present hour.
Falwell went much further than his mad 1999 assertion about the Jewish Antichrist. In the time immediately following the assault by religious fascism on American civil society in September 2001, he used his regular indulgence on the airwaves to commit treason. Entirely exculpating the suicide-murderers, he asserted that their acts were a divine punishment of the United States. Again, I ask you to imagine how such a person would be treated if he were not supposedly a man of faith.
One of his associates, Bailey Smith, once opined that "God does not hear the prayers of a Jew." This is one of the few anti-Semitic remarks ever made that has a basis in fact, since God does not exist and does not attend to any prayers, but Smith was not quite making that point. Along with his friend Pat Robertson, who believes in secret Jewish control of the world of finance, and Billy Graham, who boasted to Richard Nixon that the Jews had never guessed what he truly thought of them, Falwell kept alive the dirty innuendo about Jews that so many believing Christians seem to need. This would be bad enough in itself, and an additional reason to deplore the free ride he was given on television, if his trade-off had not been even worse.
Seeking to deflect the charge of anti-Jewish prejudice, Falwell adopted the cause of the most thuggish and demented Israeli settlers, proclaiming that their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was a holy matter and hoping that they might help to bring on Armageddon and the return of the Messiah. A detail in this ghastly narrative, as adepts of the "Left Behind" series will know, is that the return of the risen Christ will require the mass slaughter or mass conversion of all Jews. This consideration did not prevent Menachem Begin from awarding Falwell the Jabotinsky Centennial Medal in 1980 and has not inhibited other Israeli extremists from embracing him and his co-thinkers ever since. All bigots and frauds are brothers under the skin. Trying to interrupt the fiesta of piety on national television on the night of Falwell's death, I found myself waiting while Ralph Reed went all moist about the role of the departed in empowering "people of faith." Here was the hypocritical casino-based Christian who sought and received the kosher stamp from Jack Abramoff. Perfect.
Like many fanatical preachers, Falwell was especially disgusting in exuding an almost sexless personality while railing from dawn to dusk about the sex lives of others. His obsession with homosexuality was on a par with his lip-smacking evocations of hellfire. From his wobbly base of opportunist fund raising and degree-mill money-spinning in Lynchburg, Va., he set out to puddle his sausage-sized fingers into the intimate arrangements of people who had done no harm. Men of this type, if they cannot persuade enough foolish people to part with their savings, usually end up raving on the street and waving placards about the coming day of judgment. But Falwell, improving on the other Chaucerian frauds from Oral Roberts to Jim Bakker to Ted Haggard, not only had a TV show of his own but was also regularly invited onto mainstream ones.
The evil that he did will live after him. This is not just because of the wickedness that he actually preached, but because of the hole that he made in the "wall of separation" that ought to divide religion from politics. In his dingy racist past, Falwell attacked those churchmen who mixed the two worlds of faith and politics and called for civil rights. Then he realized that two could play at this game and learned to play it himself. Then he won the Republican Party over to the idea of religious voters and faith-based fund raising. And now, by example at least, he has inspired emulation in many Democrats and liberals who would like to borrow the formula. His place on the cable shows will be amply filled by Al Sharpton: another person who can get away with anything under the rubric of Reverend. It's a shame that there is no hell for Falwell to go to, and it's extraordinary that not even such a scandalous career is enough to shake our dumb addiction to the "faith-based."
john mccain, in a rare moment of concise clarity once aptly called falwell and (pat robertson, etc.) "agents of intolerance"...that's pretty much all there is to it.
actually jonas..not that i'm a big mccain supporter..
but i believe that john mccain could've been released at any
time if he'd just given in.
"When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation due to his "first in, first out" mentality. He demonstrated that he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well
McCain signed an anti-American propaganda message as a result of rigorous torture methods, which to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head. According to McCain, signing the propaganda message is something he most regrets during his time as a POW. After McCain signed the statement, the Vietnamese decided they could not use it. They tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.
McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years, mostly in the infamous "Hanoi Hilton", and was finally released from captivity in 1973, having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his earlier refusal to accept an out-of-sequence repatriation offer"
maybe he's wishy/washy in his political life..but he has more fortitude than i.
Lars he was also wise enough to marry a woman who's father controls
most of the booze distribution in Arizona. He actually jumped political districts when he ran for Senator cause there was no way he was going to beat out Udal....I believe it was Udal....but it might have been one of Arizona's other famous political figures, but I'm sure it wasn't Barry Goldwater.
to Cris & co., i definitely agree...he endured more than most who came out of Vietnam alive, and i respect his military service immensely. that being said, at this stage in his political career he just wants to be president so goddamn bad that he'll do/say whatever it takes, including cuddling up to the religious right which he used to think of as the hateful condemnation-jockeys they are.
but what else is there to say about ol' Jerry Falwell?...there's not going to be anything left for johnny boy when the "John McCain Died" thread appears some day in the future!
"The Rev. Falwell was a spiritual bully. He was the Tony Soprano to Pat Robertson's Paulie Walnuts.
People who know both of us have told me over the years that we'd probably have liked each other, the Rev. Falwell and I, that he was an affable, almost jolly man, not nearly as smug and awful as his public persona made him out to be.
I'm sure, were he real, Tony Soprano also would make a charming dinner companion, sharing his lasagna and an expensive bottle of Orvieto while telling great stories and asking how your grandmother's doing in the home. And then he'd have you whacked and thrown over the side of his deep-sea fishing boat. But he'd send flowers to the funeral."
Jerry Falwell Died
my first thought was, "I wish the Daily Show filmed and aired on the same day"
they're having a hard time
It's just like when old Ronnie died how everybody suddenly forgot about Iran-Contra and all the rest of his BS. We as a culture have a hard time speaking ill of the dead.
Fellwell. As in, past tense.
"Moral Majority" by Dead Kennedys
I love the Dead Kennedys
fellbad as in past tense and wack
hearhear to the dead kennedys....and elton john,
just because.
you know the saying, it takes very little to encourage evil people to do evil things, but only religion can get a good person to do evil things.
sadly, falwell was preching too often to the choir. something about religion can really turn good people into scary monsters... my step-father for one...
666
worst movie ever? I think so.
whats that Jesus Camp?
article on the, ahem, "reverend."
LiG - Nice. I am going to have to steal that.
I also like how everyone is saying that he "apologized" for his lovely 9/11 statement, when what he really did was more of a Harry Shearer Apologies of the Week(TM) "I'm sorry I offended anyone with the ideas I still hold true and express openly to my flock".
That's not an apology.
it just kind of dawned on me... when i was really young and my mom would drive us to church, we would listen to the "gospel hour" with jerry. theyre doing a bit on him on npr. i just had deja vu. bizarre.
ewuhh... I think ill have similar experiences when sean hannity dies and they're talking about him on NPR +i. I think my moms still listens to him in the car.
Yeah I heard a bit of the npr show. God made 9-11, but only sort of.
talk about hate and beating a guy when he is down .... you guys are savages. i don't know much about falwell, other than to say he apparently stood up for what he believed in and perhaps crossed into politics too much. he said some outlandish things no doubt, but i still admire his core belief in the Holy Bible as the word of God. of course if you have no faith that God exists, then it really doesn't matter what you think because ultimately there are no consequences upon death (heaven or hell).
i went to an HBCU... im white. a few times i heard some of these same stereotypes, racist, and 'prejudiced against gays' remarks from the older southern black male professors as jerry falwell said. it's so weird how falwell said out loud some things that are ingrained into much of the south... yet it is viewed so differently in other places. these same professors outwardly made statements that they did not agree with falwell... but sit in their class for an hour and find out what they really believe.
i dont agree with either side. but his viewpoints are very laced into the south.
sorry tenn, i just really like it when bad people go away and Falwell was one of the worst christians i've ever seen. I have some hard-core christians in my family i don't think Jerry's interpretation of the holy texts represents most christians beliefs of a loving, mericiful God.
are you serious!? perhaps!? to him there was NO LINE between church and state.
like i said, i'm not one to rejoice @ hearing the news of someone's death, but the crap that came out of this man's mouth was just horrible.
I'm more pissed at what he and pat robertson did to help change the republican party from a more libertarian standpoint to a more socially conservative one.
i dont think he was trying to represent christianity in a pure sense. i dont even think that is possible- to be completely removed from one's surroundings in order to have a pure viewpoint. what i do think was that the gospel and deep southern views was laced into his religion. he was a product of his surroundings. no doubt he took it to another level... but regardless, you can't separate where he was raised from what he believed.
The south has still got some problems, but at least they're open about their hatreds and ignorance. There's alot of people in this country that don't hail from south of the mason-dixon that probably, in their heart-of-hearts agreed with Ol' Jerry.
exactly apurimac. the south is pretty bad still... even VA, where falwell is from.
in fact, it wasnt until 1967 that interrace marriage was allowed (lookup Loving v. Virginia)! that is freakin insane! and considering falwell was born in '33 i think they said... i mean of course he had all of these deep-rooted prejudices.
there's a reason the south is called the "bible belt."
well given that, then why was anyone even surprised at his commentary throughout the course of his life? why did anyone even pay it attention?
Huh?! So I shouldn't mind Falwell's Moral Majority because I don't share his religious beliefs? How does this not affect me???
i sort of agree tenn.
jerry wasn't a great example of christianity (understatement) and
maybe a hateful man in a lot of ways... but having lost two close
relatives in the past two years i find it hard to rejoice in the death
of another person. regardless of how bad a human being he may
have been..he was someone's father, brother, uncle, grandfather,
friend etc. there are people who are in mourning right now because
they cared for/about this man.
i find it difficult to dance on anyone's grave really...just for the
simple thought that it makes me sad to think that someone, someday
may be happy to hear that i've died.
yeah, i hear exactly where you're coming from larslarson.
however,
he was a public figure (and a very public figure @ that). he chose to make himself a public figure (he was quoted as saying that preachers need to be "media savvy" and that he "used the media" to his advantage).
therefore we could only know him through the ridiculous and hateful statements that he'd made.
so, pardon the vulgarity, but fuck him. really, i don't think the world has lost anyone of value.
i do feel for his family, though.
i understand cris... i think it's very possible to hate what this
man stood for and find what he said to be distasteful to put
it kindly. just not personally willing to take that extra step.
i guess i'm glad there's one less televangelist for people to
use as their reason for hating christians/religion etc.
as you said i feel for his family and friends...
i guess every time i hear of someone dieing it just reminds me
of my own mortality and fills me with a certain amount of
melancholy.
the gays and lesbians and the aclu caused this.
so true vado...
clearly a higher power decided to smite earth's last true hope in response to our country's acceptance of gays and lesbians...
what's that crazy church down in kansas?
What does Larry Flynt have to say?
good ole fred phelps and jerry falwell, im sure best of friends... and lovers
Sadly, Fred Phelps makes Falwell look like a flaming liberal.
What? There's somebody crazier then Jerry that's not Pat Robertson?
Jesus Phelp's website is scary.
some perspective from a decent writer and sometimes confounding individual...but i can respect him on this point.
Faith-Based Fraud
Jerry Falwell's foul rantings prove you can get away with anything if you have "Reverend" in front of your name.
By Christopher Hitchens
The Rev. Jerry Falwell
The discovery of the carcass of Jerry Falwell on the floor of an obscure office in Virginia has almost zero significance, except perhaps for two categories of the species labeled "credulous idiot." The first such category consists of those who expected Falwell (and themselves) to be bodily raptured out of the biosphere and assumed into the heavens, leaving pilotless planes and driverless trucks and taxis to crash with their innocent victims as collateral damage. This group is so stupid and uncultured that it may perhaps be forgiven. It is so far "left behind" that almost its only pleasure is to gloat at the idea of others being abandoned in the same condition.
The second such category is of slightly more importance, because it consists of the editors, producers, publicists, and a host of other media riffraff who allowed Falwell to prove, almost every week, that there is no vileness that cannot be freely uttered by a man whose name is prefaced with the word Reverend. Try this: Call a TV station and tell them that you know the Antichrist is already on earth and is an adult Jewish male. See how far you get. Then try the same thing and add that you are the Rev. Jim-Bob Vermin. "Why, Reverend, come right on the show!" What a fool Don Imus was. If he had paid the paltry few bucks to make himself a certified clergyman, he could be jeering and sneering to the present hour.
Falwell went much further than his mad 1999 assertion about the Jewish Antichrist. In the time immediately following the assault by religious fascism on American civil society in September 2001, he used his regular indulgence on the airwaves to commit treason. Entirely exculpating the suicide-murderers, he asserted that their acts were a divine punishment of the United States. Again, I ask you to imagine how such a person would be treated if he were not supposedly a man of faith.
One of his associates, Bailey Smith, once opined that "God does not hear the prayers of a Jew." This is one of the few anti-Semitic remarks ever made that has a basis in fact, since God does not exist and does not attend to any prayers, but Smith was not quite making that point. Along with his friend Pat Robertson, who believes in secret Jewish control of the world of finance, and Billy Graham, who boasted to Richard Nixon that the Jews had never guessed what he truly thought of them, Falwell kept alive the dirty innuendo about Jews that so many believing Christians seem to need. This would be bad enough in itself, and an additional reason to deplore the free ride he was given on television, if his trade-off had not been even worse.
Seeking to deflect the charge of anti-Jewish prejudice, Falwell adopted the cause of the most thuggish and demented Israeli settlers, proclaiming that their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was a holy matter and hoping that they might help to bring on Armageddon and the return of the Messiah. A detail in this ghastly narrative, as adepts of the "Left Behind" series will know, is that the return of the risen Christ will require the mass slaughter or mass conversion of all Jews. This consideration did not prevent Menachem Begin from awarding Falwell the Jabotinsky Centennial Medal in 1980 and has not inhibited other Israeli extremists from embracing him and his co-thinkers ever since. All bigots and frauds are brothers under the skin. Trying to interrupt the fiesta of piety on national television on the night of Falwell's death, I found myself waiting while Ralph Reed went all moist about the role of the departed in empowering "people of faith." Here was the hypocritical casino-based Christian who sought and received the kosher stamp from Jack Abramoff. Perfect.
Like many fanatical preachers, Falwell was especially disgusting in exuding an almost sexless personality while railing from dawn to dusk about the sex lives of others. His obsession with homosexuality was on a par with his lip-smacking evocations of hellfire. From his wobbly base of opportunist fund raising and degree-mill money-spinning in Lynchburg, Va., he set out to puddle his sausage-sized fingers into the intimate arrangements of people who had done no harm. Men of this type, if they cannot persuade enough foolish people to part with their savings, usually end up raving on the street and waving placards about the coming day of judgment. But Falwell, improving on the other Chaucerian frauds from Oral Roberts to Jim Bakker to Ted Haggard, not only had a TV show of his own but was also regularly invited onto mainstream ones.
The evil that he did will live after him. This is not just because of the wickedness that he actually preached, but because of the hole that he made in the "wall of separation" that ought to divide religion from politics. In his dingy racist past, Falwell attacked those churchmen who mixed the two worlds of faith and politics and called for civil rights. Then he realized that two could play at this game and learned to play it himself. Then he won the Republican Party over to the idea of religious voters and faith-based fund raising. And now, by example at least, he has inspired emulation in many Democrats and liberals who would like to borrow the formula. His place on the cable shows will be amply filled by Al Sharpton: another person who can get away with anything under the rubric of Reverend. It's a shame that there is no hell for Falwell to go to, and it's extraordinary that not even such a scandalous career is enough to shake our dumb addiction to the "faith-based."
john mccain, in a rare moment of concise clarity once aptly called falwell and (pat robertson, etc.) "agents of intolerance"...that's pretty much all there is to it.
yeah, mfrench, but then mccain later went on to give the commencement address @ falwell's university!
mccain is the definition of flipflop whatever serves the interest of those who he thinks will give him the most money and power
imagine how much his captors broke him
i wouldn't put it past mccain being their dick sucking boy in hocimin
actually jonas..not that i'm a big mccain supporter..
but i believe that john mccain could've been released at any
time if he'd just given in.
"When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation due to his "first in, first out" mentality. He demonstrated that he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well
McCain signed an anti-American propaganda message as a result of rigorous torture methods, which to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head. According to McCain, signing the propaganda message is something he most regrets during his time as a POW. After McCain signed the statement, the Vietnamese decided they could not use it. They tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.
McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years, mostly in the infamous "Hanoi Hilton", and was finally released from captivity in 1973, having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his earlier refusal to accept an out-of-sequence repatriation offer"
maybe he's wishy/washy in his political life..but he has more fortitude than i.
hey we just shot our prisoners in vietnam.
Lars he was also wise enough to marry a woman who's father controls
most of the booze distribution in Arizona. He actually jumped political districts when he ran for Senator cause there was no way he was going to beat out Udal....I believe it was Udal....but it might have been one of Arizona's other famous political figures, but I'm sure it wasn't Barry Goldwater.
mccain is a known liar nothing he says is to be trusted he was broken and remains so.
racketeer
to Cris & co., i definitely agree...he endured more than most who came out of Vietnam alive, and i respect his military service immensely. that being said, at this stage in his political career he just wants to be president so goddamn bad that he'll do/say whatever it takes, including cuddling up to the religious right which he used to think of as the hateful condemnation-jockeys they are.
but what else is there to say about ol' Jerry Falwell?...there's not going to be anything left for johnny boy when the "John McCain Died" thread appears some day in the future!
i know whats left to say
ROT INTO COMPOST FOOL
not that he would make very good compost with all the toxic way he lived and as unhealthy as he was
you DEFIANTLY could NOT consider the food that grew from his waste mater, dare i say fertilizer, Organic.
I heart Christopher Hitchens. Here he is defending what Kracklite posted above on Hanity and Colmes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doKkOSMaTk4
I particularly love that he knows why he's been asked on the show and throws it right in their faces. Genius!
One final thought:
Jerry Falwell - the Tony Soprano of evangelicals.
"The Rev. Falwell was a spiritual bully. He was the Tony Soprano to Pat Robertson's Paulie Walnuts.
People who know both of us have told me over the years that we'd probably have liked each other, the Rev. Falwell and I, that he was an affable, almost jolly man, not nearly as smug and awful as his public persona made him out to be.
I'm sure, were he real, Tony Soprano also would make a charming dinner companion, sharing his lasagna and an expensive bottle of Orvieto while telling great stories and asking how your grandmother's doing in the home. And then he'd have you whacked and thrown over the side of his deep-sea fishing boat. But he'd send flowers to the funeral."
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