I recently had an interview at a firm which does interiors for fast food restaurants. I was explained that the job would require me to arrange furniture and wall finishes in Revit. I don't do anything except shuffle the packaged materials from the client and give the standardized drawings back to them.
I would have to work at a rate of 1 restaurant every 8 to 12 hours 50 hours a week. So I would do something like 200+ restaurants a year in an office of less than 10 designers. I feel that I can definitely do the work and the hours are well compensated especially for a non-architecture position.
I don't mind the daily grind or almost total lack of creativity. I would have to accept that at most jobs out of school. The nagging feeling I have about the job is that the office is a place for work and there is not fun with people there like a lot of other design studios where you can relate to others and have some fun after hours. That and I have mixed feelings about future growth.
If I were to move on to an architecture firm then they would understand I did nothing but hundreds of space planning projects that most 2nd year students I know could do. No conceptual design, no detail drafting, no real variety of projects, not even able to change where the walls go. On the other hand I will be experienced in Revit, have full control of each project and be responsible for dealing with the people who will use the documents I make. Like an architect jr.
Any thoughts about personal decisions or opinions regarding a position like this? I don't mind doing the work I just don't expect to do it for more than a few years and then move on with decent experience. Red flags for production firms like this one?
i don't see a red flag. this job might suck a little, but then it seems the way architecture firms work there is a fair chance you have to quit every 2 or 3 years anyway. this is the sort of company that doesn't want creative or experienced people. once you get some experience, you can move into a firm that likes people with 2-5 years experience, but is less likely to hire recent grads. then i guess you leave that firm for one that wants someone with 5-10 years experience. i'm guessing after 10 years you just count as experienced but i'm not sure yet.
You don't see a red flag - let me clue you in - after doing nothing but Revit production forfor 2.5 years at the office I am at, no one will hire me for design - not even the firm I work for - they just hired someone else, and now I am her modeler/drafter too - Do you want to be an architect or a BIM WIT?
I was thinking along the lines of staying a few years and moving on with practical experience. Not all of the practical experience one would get from working in a wide range of services but enough for a junior arch position.
I don't know if using Revit all the time is a big problem, it's what I did before. I expect to have some more portfolio/visualization work to show as I progress so that I am not a one trick pony to any perspective employer. Now of course, if I tell them all I did was draft for several years, same thing all the time, might make them change their minds. People don't really just look at the production work you do right? A young employee is still rather malleable since they have no real specialization.
I hope I don't get into the bind of working constantly, enjoying an increasing pay scale then not wanting to leave because it's a secure position. If I were to move on I might have to expect a pay cut while doing more work. As usual I compound the problems until they are all tangled up.
you are going to learn the ins and outs of restaurant and fast food design. I assume that the company that you are working for has a drive thru component to their restaurants (you are probably working for a company that rolls out McDonalds), and learning how to design a successful drive thru is a great skill to have.
While some people who only believe in Architecture with a capital 'A' will disagree with me, the fast food establishments that you will be working on the most well designed, most thought out, most well engineered building types around. There is a ton to learn from working on these projects (operational engineering, marketing, customer behavior, design driven sales, branding, business, etc) that is very fascinating and great knowledge to have. This experience will make you a highly desirable candidate to future employers who also do restaurant and commercial design, as well as giving you a one up if you want to start your own practice that will focus on restaurant design
I'd take that job in a heartbeat! I haven't had one arch or even arch-related job offer since 09' graduation. Try explaining that on your next interview.
I feel compelled to take this job too seeing how no one else has been interested in me since the last few months after I graduated. Just to be clear, I don't design the kitchen area, just the counter and whatever would be in public view with pre-packaged materials which I just sort around depending on the requirements. I make maybe 10-20 sheets per CD set. I feel awkward about taking a job where I don't learn much after the first few months but can produce at unheard of rates.
Firms wouldn't hold it against somebody for not doing anything creative for a few years. That's my expectation. The problem comes when you have no exposure to anything else. I will literally have no life besides that kind of work for 5 days a week. Not much in IDP or other professional upkeep. It's like I'm taking a shot in the dark. I don't feel bad about doing it but I can't help but think that something else better will come down the road. But most people have told me not to count on it without useful experience which I don't have.
dont underestimate the power of knowing how to produce volumes of work in a small amount of time. This skill is great to have.
Take the job, make some $$, and do some competitions or other more exciting work on the side. The economy is still crap, have any job at all is a good thing
I'm going to ask about the agreements they want from me if we get to that point. I wouldn't feel bad about up and leaving because I can recommend a dozen people to do this line of work. I would prefer a job in an interesting locale (this office is in an industrial region), but I think my expectations are rather high compared to what a lot of people are receiving.
From what I am hearing volunteer work or waiting for the right offer to come along isn't a safe strategy to get a job. I was thinking about volunteering for a while at a nearby office and gain some experience while I wait. Even doing some some drafting at a local whatever company in the mean time. Guess I shouldn't be so picky with job offers if my alternatives are no better.
Has anyone had any luck with waiting things out with volunteer or temporary work until they get that job they wanted or is that a pipe dream?
if you volunteer, at least do so for a legitimate non-profit sort of organization that does good enough work for a cause you care enough about to justify working for free. don't 'volunteer' for people who are just taking advantage of you.
also, it's a pipe dream. it sort of sounds like there is a fair chance the profession of architecture may not be what you think it is. my dream job is to sit in a hammock on a day that's 68 degrees and sunny, under a shade tree so I don't get a sun burn, drinking cold margaritas all day and staying right at that pleasant point where i'm a little buzzed but not drunk yet. unfortunately, i need to work in an architecture firm to get money so i can afford to eat. while that particular illustration may not be exactly what you think architects do on a daily basis, take comfort in knowing that i did enjoy thinking about it.
a job that acts as a stepping stone towards a better job is not at all uncommon. then again, perpetually unemployed architects, especially recent graduates, are also not uncommon. honestly, i don't think it should be that hard of a choice.
the right job isnt going to land in your lap..especially in this economy. Unless you have a trust fund and dont have to work, I would suggest taking this job and looking for the next best thing. It is always easier to find a job when you have one then when you dont
This line of work leaves a lot to be desired especially for a young designer. I would feel a little bit better if I had IDP come along but it's interior design so probably not. Shuffling furniture for McDonald's is far from what I was expecting but it's that or certain waiting for a new job to come along for a long time.
I like to think I should pay my dues so that I feel good about taking any job that comes along which is better suited for me. I can hope that if I take the job I will warm up to it and it isn't so bad. I have no problem with a job that isn't perfect so long as I can expect the right kind of development.
I have a bad feeling, nonetheless, that I am going down a road where I will be a useful cog in the machine but not the dynamic professional I want to be. Am I overstating this? Surely the first few jobs in your career won't make all the difference so long as you move towards what you really want to do. Not like I am choosing my destiny. Right?
In this economy waiting for the 'perfect' job is just dumb. The guy has no experience and even though it's not 'design' work (how many people at the just-out-of-school level are asked to do design work, really?) does not mean it couldn't be valuable experience. If anything he could get much faster about space planning/drawing/whatever... and be far more valuable to his future employer than he EVER would be now to a current one.
But I guess we as Architects need to slog along in unpaid internships at boutique firms to really be 'legit'... the guy is actually going to get PAID! In THIS economy!
I think the problem most young designers have is they see the profession in too ideal a light... let him get his experience and he'll be ever more valuable to the next one down the line.
and to thakopian...as mdler said..just because you're working 9-5 for the man doesn't mean you can't be designing your own stuff at home..updating your portfolio and creating your new ideas for what you want to do...this job could actually be great experience for you...even though admittedly it's not 'ideal'... but if it were you'd probably be working for longer hours for little to no pay... so maybe the alternative really isn't so bad? I don't really think the first year or three are sooooo important personally...best to get paid and start paying off loans and actually afford a nice apartment...THEN work for someone you care about and are willing to take a pay cut for...at least that's how i did it.
I would have to agree with most by suggesting that you should accept the position. I don't think it hurts you in any way to accept the position and continue to look for better work. Even if you have to spend a few months or even a couple of years there, you will have experience in something.
If you are a motivated and talented person, than have the confidence that even while you punch the clock, you will be able to better your career and find that better job soon. It is so easy to work 9 to 5 and then work on things that you actually care about on the side, like furniture fabrication or competitions. Just go into knowing that ultimately better things will come but it takes time and constant persistence.
so, for those of you who dont know, I work for a large restaurant/retail company designing their stores. I have worked for boutique firms in NYC, huge international firms doing skyscrapers all over the world, designed multi-million dollar houses in Beverly Hills for billionaires..
The work that I am doing is the most satisfying work I have done to date. It is challenging in many ways, I am constantly learning new things about design, engineering, branding, marketing, and human behavior through the projects that I design. Also, tens of thousands of people get to experience my projects every day (opposed to the few people who will ever step into one of the houses that I have done). Knowing that I can create environments that may have a positive effect on the common man is very rewarding.
Not to mention that I am getting paid well and work 40 hrs a week..
“Architects are pretty much high-class whores. We can turn down projects the way they can turn down some clients, but we've both got to say yes to someone if we want to stay in business.” - Philip Johnson
People who spell architecture with a "capital A" may live in their "snow globe" during school or land a gig, if they're lucky enough, picking up the red lines from Zaha. Eventually reality will set in and its people who take the supposed "shit job" who end up running things.
Go for it, worst case you leave with a few bucks in your pocket and a couple more lines on the resume.
thakopian, you're not going to get hired as the principal of a boutique design firm right out of school. you're not a better designer than someone who has worked in the profession for 10 or 30 years. your first job out of school is going to be somewhere where you learn all the stuff that school didn't teach you. and it may help you to understand that school didn't teach you anything useful. i think you should learn what humility is. you are about to embark on a new career that may become exciting and rewarding, but you also have to understand that it's a job, and your job does not and will not exist for your pleasure.
also, don't say you have to pay dues. that bugs me. the whole idea of "dues" implies that you owe something to someone. you don't. you worked hard to get as far as you have, and you're probably going to have to keep working hard to get better. take some pride in that (after you've learned humility). the whole idea of "dues" is a scam from some useless baby boomer that thinks you should spend your time and resources improving their lives or livelihood because they're too lazy to take care of themselves. it's certainly best to show appreciation to anyone who actually helps you along in your career, but anyone that says you owe them "dues" is probably not helping you and it would better if you kicked them in their shins.
Sep 22, 12 10:13 am ·
·
"The nagging feeling I have about the job is that the office is a place for work and there is not fun with people there like a lot of other design studios where you can relate to others and have some fun after hours."
What the hell? Are you fucking shittin' me? This isn't kindergarten. Architecture is real world, big boy stuff. Grow up man.
this job is going to be much more 'fun' than having to wipe the ass of some 'signature' architect in the office at 2pm on a sunny Saturday afternoon after having worked a 80 hr work week while getting paid $32k
Where I'm coming from is a previous position which opened my eyes to what a good work environment is like. People you can relate to, go out to lunch with. Everyone is nice to one another and we all feel like we're part of a good organization, mutually beneficial. The kind of work I was doing was just right and the compensation was ok. I compare every opportunity in comparison to that so my point of view might seem selective but it was just my background.
That being said I think a lot of people have made a good point about being able to find a good opportunity and take advantage of it. It's not ideal to go to work shuffling furniture around but it isn't bad either. I didn't mean to come across as whiny but it takes some time to get used to new opportunities. Other people have said I might as well take the offer and assuming no strings attached just work until something else comes along. Makes sense.
Not too many people I know are in the best place right now even with architecture jobs so we will have to wait it out the next few years to get where we want to be. My expectations were otherwise but have to face reality sooner or later.
Btw, can someone get rid of these spammers?
Sep 24, 12 3:12 pm ·
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Mass production design job?
I recently had an interview at a firm which does interiors for fast food restaurants. I was explained that the job would require me to arrange furniture and wall finishes in Revit. I don't do anything except shuffle the packaged materials from the client and give the standardized drawings back to them.
I would have to work at a rate of 1 restaurant every 8 to 12 hours 50 hours a week. So I would do something like 200+ restaurants a year in an office of less than 10 designers. I feel that I can definitely do the work and the hours are well compensated especially for a non-architecture position.
I don't mind the daily grind or almost total lack of creativity. I would have to accept that at most jobs out of school. The nagging feeling I have about the job is that the office is a place for work and there is not fun with people there like a lot of other design studios where you can relate to others and have some fun after hours. That and I have mixed feelings about future growth.
If I were to move on to an architecture firm then they would understand I did nothing but hundreds of space planning projects that most 2nd year students I know could do. No conceptual design, no detail drafting, no real variety of projects, not even able to change where the walls go. On the other hand I will be experienced in Revit, have full control of each project and be responsible for dealing with the people who will use the documents I make. Like an architect jr.
Any thoughts about personal decisions or opinions regarding a position like this? I don't mind doing the work I just don't expect to do it for more than a few years and then move on with decent experience. Red flags for production firms like this one?
i don't see a red flag. this job might suck a little, but then it seems the way architecture firms work there is a fair chance you have to quit every 2 or 3 years anyway. this is the sort of company that doesn't want creative or experienced people. once you get some experience, you can move into a firm that likes people with 2-5 years experience, but is less likely to hire recent grads. then i guess you leave that firm for one that wants someone with 5-10 years experience. i'm guessing after 10 years you just count as experienced but i'm not sure yet.
You don't see a red flag - let me clue you in - after doing nothing but Revit production forfor 2.5 years at the office I am at, no one will hire me for design - not even the firm I work for - they just hired someone else, and now I am her modeler/drafter too - Do you want to be an architect or a BIM WIT?
I was thinking along the lines of staying a few years and moving on with practical experience. Not all of the practical experience one would get from working in a wide range of services but enough for a junior arch position.
I don't know if using Revit all the time is a big problem, it's what I did before. I expect to have some more portfolio/visualization work to show as I progress so that I am not a one trick pony to any perspective employer. Now of course, if I tell them all I did was draft for several years, same thing all the time, might make them change their minds. People don't really just look at the production work you do right? A young employee is still rather malleable since they have no real specialization.
I hope I don't get into the bind of working constantly, enjoying an increasing pay scale then not wanting to leave because it's a secure position. If I were to move on I might have to expect a pay cut while doing more work. As usual I compound the problems until they are all tangled up.
you are going to learn the ins and outs of restaurant and fast food design. I assume that the company that you are working for has a drive thru component to their restaurants (you are probably working for a company that rolls out McDonalds), and learning how to design a successful drive thru is a great skill to have.
While some people who only believe in Architecture with a capital 'A' will disagree with me, the fast food establishments that you will be working on the most well designed, most thought out, most well engineered building types around. There is a ton to learn from working on these projects (operational engineering, marketing, customer behavior, design driven sales, branding, business, etc) that is very fascinating and great knowledge to have. This experience will make you a highly desirable candidate to future employers who also do restaurant and commercial design, as well as giving you a one up if you want to start your own practice that will focus on restaurant design
I'd take that job in a heartbeat! I haven't had one arch or even arch-related job offer since 09' graduation. Try explaining that on your next interview.
I feel compelled to take this job too seeing how no one else has been interested in me since the last few months after I graduated. Just to be clear, I don't design the kitchen area, just the counter and whatever would be in public view with pre-packaged materials which I just sort around depending on the requirements. I make maybe 10-20 sheets per CD set. I feel awkward about taking a job where I don't learn much after the first few months but can produce at unheard of rates.
Firms wouldn't hold it against somebody for not doing anything creative for a few years. That's my expectation. The problem comes when you have no exposure to anything else. I will literally have no life besides that kind of work for 5 days a week. Not much in IDP or other professional upkeep. It's like I'm taking a shot in the dark. I don't feel bad about doing it but I can't help but think that something else better will come down the road. But most people have told me not to count on it without useful experience which I don't have.
dont underestimate the power of knowing how to produce volumes of work in a small amount of time. This skill is great to have.
Take the job, make some $$, and do some competitions or other more exciting work on the side. The economy is still crap, have any job at all is a good thing
are you signing some sort of contract to stay there for a long period of time?
take the job, build experience, and leave when a better opportunity comes along.
I'm going to ask about the agreements they want from me if we get to that point. I wouldn't feel bad about up and leaving because I can recommend a dozen people to do this line of work. I would prefer a job in an interesting locale (this office is in an industrial region), but I think my expectations are rather high compared to what a lot of people are receiving.
From what I am hearing volunteer work or waiting for the right offer to come along isn't a safe strategy to get a job. I was thinking about volunteering for a while at a nearby office and gain some experience while I wait. Even doing some some drafting at a local whatever company in the mean time. Guess I shouldn't be so picky with job offers if my alternatives are no better.
Has anyone had any luck with waiting things out with volunteer or temporary work until they get that job they wanted or is that a pipe dream?
if you volunteer, at least do so for a legitimate non-profit sort of organization that does good enough work for a cause you care enough about to justify working for free. don't 'volunteer' for people who are just taking advantage of you.
also, it's a pipe dream. it sort of sounds like there is a fair chance the profession of architecture may not be what you think it is. my dream job is to sit in a hammock on a day that's 68 degrees and sunny, under a shade tree so I don't get a sun burn, drinking cold margaritas all day and staying right at that pleasant point where i'm a little buzzed but not drunk yet. unfortunately, i need to work in an architecture firm to get money so i can afford to eat. while that particular illustration may not be exactly what you think architects do on a daily basis, take comfort in knowing that i did enjoy thinking about it.
a job that acts as a stepping stone towards a better job is not at all uncommon. then again, perpetually unemployed architects, especially recent graduates, are also not uncommon. honestly, i don't think it should be that hard of a choice.
thakoplan
the right job isnt going to land in your lap..especially in this economy. Unless you have a trust fund and dont have to work, I would suggest taking this job and looking for the next best thing. It is always easier to find a job when you have one then when you dont
The issue becomes, did you go to architecture school to do this kind of work?
Ask yourself.
This line of work leaves a lot to be desired especially for a young designer. I would feel a little bit better if I had IDP come along but it's interior design so probably not. Shuffling furniture for McDonald's is far from what I was expecting but it's that or certain waiting for a new job to come along for a long time.
I like to think I should pay my dues so that I feel good about taking any job that comes along which is better suited for me. I can hope that if I take the job I will warm up to it and it isn't so bad. I have no problem with a job that isn't perfect so long as I can expect the right kind of development.
I have a bad feeling, nonetheless, that I am going down a road where I will be a useful cog in the machine but not the dynamic professional I want to be. Am I overstating this? Surely the first few jobs in your career won't make all the difference so long as you move towards what you really want to do. Not like I am choosing my destiny. Right?
w. wynne A.I.A.... that's just foolish.
In this economy waiting for the 'perfect' job is just dumb. The guy has no experience and even though it's not 'design' work (how many people at the just-out-of-school level are asked to do design work, really?) does not mean it couldn't be valuable experience. If anything he could get much faster about space planning/drawing/whatever... and be far more valuable to his future employer than he EVER would be now to a current one.
But I guess we as Architects need to slog along in unpaid internships at boutique firms to really be 'legit'... the guy is actually going to get PAID! In THIS economy!
I think the problem most young designers have is they see the profession in too ideal a light... let him get his experience and he'll be ever more valuable to the next one down the line.
and to thakopian...as mdler said..just because you're working 9-5 for the man doesn't mean you can't be designing your own stuff at home..updating your portfolio and creating your new ideas for what you want to do...this job could actually be great experience for you...even though admittedly it's not 'ideal'... but if it were you'd probably be working for longer hours for little to no pay... so maybe the alternative really isn't so bad? I don't really think the first year or three are sooooo important personally...best to get paid and start paying off loans and actually afford a nice apartment...THEN work for someone you care about and are willing to take a pay cut for...at least that's how i did it.
I would have to agree with most by suggesting that you should accept the position. I don't think it hurts you in any way to accept the position and continue to look for better work. Even if you have to spend a few months or even a couple of years there, you will have experience in something.
If you are a motivated and talented person, than have the confidence that even while you punch the clock, you will be able to better your career and find that better job soon. It is so easy to work 9 to 5 and then work on things that you actually care about on the side, like furniture fabrication or competitions. Just go into knowing that ultimately better things will come but it takes time and constant persistence.
so, for those of you who dont know, I work for a large restaurant/retail company designing their stores. I have worked for boutique firms in NYC, huge international firms doing skyscrapers all over the world, designed multi-million dollar houses in Beverly Hills for billionaires..
The work that I am doing is the most satisfying work I have done to date. It is challenging in many ways, I am constantly learning new things about design, engineering, branding, marketing, and human behavior through the projects that I design. Also, tens of thousands of people get to experience my projects every day (opposed to the few people who will ever step into one of the houses that I have done). Knowing that I can create environments that may have a positive effect on the common man is very rewarding.
Not to mention that I am getting paid well and work 40 hrs a week..
“Architects are pretty much high-class whores. We can turn down projects the way they can turn down some clients, but we've both got to say yes to someone if we want to stay in business.” - Philip Johnson
People who spell architecture with a "capital A" may live in their "snow globe" during school or land a gig, if they're lucky enough, picking up the red lines from Zaha. Eventually reality will set in and its people who take the supposed "shit job" who end up running things.
Go for it, worst case you leave with a few bucks in your pocket and a couple more lines on the resume.
thakopian, you're not going to get hired as the principal of a boutique design firm right out of school. you're not a better designer than someone who has worked in the profession for 10 or 30 years. your first job out of school is going to be somewhere where you learn all the stuff that school didn't teach you. and it may help you to understand that school didn't teach you anything useful. i think you should learn what humility is. you are about to embark on a new career that may become exciting and rewarding, but you also have to understand that it's a job, and your job does not and will not exist for your pleasure.
also, don't say you have to pay dues. that bugs me. the whole idea of "dues" implies that you owe something to someone. you don't. you worked hard to get as far as you have, and you're probably going to have to keep working hard to get better. take some pride in that (after you've learned humility). the whole idea of "dues" is a scam from some useless baby boomer that thinks you should spend your time and resources improving their lives or livelihood because they're too lazy to take care of themselves. it's certainly best to show appreciation to anyone who actually helps you along in your career, but anyone that says you owe them "dues" is probably not helping you and it would better if you kicked them in their shins.
"The nagging feeling I have about the job is that the office is a place for work and there is not fun with people there like a lot of other design studios where you can relate to others and have some fun after hours."
What the hell? Are you fucking shittin' me? This isn't kindergarten. Architecture is real world, big boy stuff. Grow up man.
Mind blown, yo!
this job is going to be much more 'fun' than having to wipe the ass of some 'signature' architect in the office at 2pm on a sunny Saturday afternoon after having worked a 80 hr work week while getting paid $32k
Where I'm coming from is a previous position which opened my eyes to what a good work environment is like. People you can relate to, go out to lunch with. Everyone is nice to one another and we all feel like we're part of a good organization, mutually beneficial. The kind of work I was doing was just right and the compensation was ok. I compare every opportunity in comparison to that so my point of view might seem selective but it was just my background.
That being said I think a lot of people have made a good point about being able to find a good opportunity and take advantage of it. It's not ideal to go to work shuffling furniture around but it isn't bad either. I didn't mean to come across as whiny but it takes some time to get used to new opportunities. Other people have said I might as well take the offer and assuming no strings attached just work until something else comes along. Makes sense.
Not too many people I know are in the best place right now even with architecture jobs so we will have to wait it out the next few years to get where we want to be. My expectations were otherwise but have to face reality sooner or later.
Btw, can someone get rid of these spammers?
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