sorry farwest, it's just the mood right now. probably a reflection of the market.
you've already got something on us if you're wife has a job outside of architecture and does ok, because that should give you more flexibility and time to build the practice while still having some stability (and hopefully health insurance).
but if you do want kids you'll want to think about how that's going to work if she decides not to go back to work right away - i thought i would but now faced with going back to an office i don't think i can work full time until kid #2 is at least a year old, so a few years away.
other than that - there are lots of threads on figuring out start up costs, business needs, insurance, etc. we read a bunch of books and talked to mentors who had done similar things and had some experience.
one of the most important things i would say is try to maintain a positive attitude, be enthusiatic about design with everyone you meet, esp. potential clients, and try not to burn bridges when you do encounter that horrible client... also, always keep your billing current and if clients don't pay remind them right away and keep on them until they pay.
and try to get a realistic idea of what your overhead costs will be and how much work you need to take in in order to make X amount of dollars - you'll be surprised at how much goes to expenses, taxes etc. even if you're just working at home with no employees.
"If you can do it all, hire a student or two to help you out on CAD and help manage things, even if they have to work for free or for the experience or for the fun."
"NEVER EVER EVER WORK FOR FREE FOR ANYONE PERIOD and NEVER trade design latitude for money."
what's good for the goose is good for the gander, OF. never ever encourage anyone at any level in this profession to work for free OR accept free help.
i'll acknowledge that offices and interns have different approaches to this. i helped an experienced architect start his own practice, but was absolutely uncompromising about being adequately compensated for my time. paying the extra $5 or 10k for my skill set was pennies compared to our overall office expenses, and i believe he respected me more for not capitulating. i would encourage all people working under another architect to take the same approach or find an office that will better respect their talents.
The big difference is that an intern fresh out of school is typically a money loser to a business and many times hired as in investment that hopefully will pay off over time, while a new business should be adding value to a client.
OF, it would be fine to work for free as a personal decision. It may benefit a person's career.
But it sets a terrible precedent for our field. Firms come to expect interns to work for free, and the mentality starts to spread. My first job was in NYC making $24,000 a year and I nearly starved. But there were people in my firm -- foreigners mostly -- who worked for free, and I believe it lowered the wages for everyone. Why hire an intern at $36,000 a year if there's someone right next to them who will do the same job for nothing?
As a result, a young architect who expects to make enough TO SIMPLY EAT is often passed over for the free employee. That seems unreasonable to me. Other professional fields actually have standards for what interns are paid.
I recognize, too, that it's expensive to employ people. A free employee saves a business a lot. But there's an ethical dimension to being an employer that, imho, is sometimes ignored in architecture.
i disagree, tyvek. one of the principles of leveraging hours is that an intern's billable rate is actually the bread winner for most firms. this may not be true in an office of three just starting up, but in a case like that the principal generally knows his or her interns' abilities pretty well.
this has been a really interesting thread so far. my 2-cents.
having your own firm can be great or it can be misery. often at the same time. it takes a special frame of mind, a tremendous willingness to address a wide variety of different issues and problems in the course of every single day. it takes tremendous stamina. it takes tremendous focus to be successful. it takes patience.
in my experience, most design professionals who make the leap can't imagine why they didn't do it sooner. but, it's very different from having a job. as someone above said well, at the end of the day all the really important decisions become yours - you have to be comfortable with that responsibility.
i've been successfully self-employed for 27 years. some of the early years were tough - some of the recent years have been tough (for radically different reasons) but, all of the years have been rewarding in some way or another.
as i look back on those years, i've come to realize that success in your own firm depends a lot on your expectations. if you expect no problems; if you expect work to just fall in your lap; if you expect employees to give the work the same attention you would give it; if you expect to run a firm without learning about, and doing, marketing and accounting and hr management and contracts, etc; if you expect the projects to not have problems; if you expect clients to just automatically pay their bills because you send an invoice; if you expect to avoid having a relationship with a lawyer; if you expect the design freedom you had in school -- if any of these expectations are a major part of your psychology, then you're not likely to have much success on your own.
but, if you're willing to be flexible about these sorts of issues (or can bring along a partner, or so, who will) then having your own firm can be a lot of fun and very rewarding ... you just have to be very clear about your definition of "rewarding" - it means something different to every practitioner i've ever met.
working for free is not slavery. unlike slavery, both parties enter into this agreement willingly. No one is forcing an intern or anyone else to work for free.
Very true, e. It's an individual choice. But that choice has repercussions beyond the individual -- if it's widespread enough, it affects the entire profession. And not necessarily in a healthy way.
In America....I would still stand to call it SLAVERY!
If you want an internship then you should be affiliated with a university program or another School Program. It is a place
were you are learning from the job but your also getting a
structured learning experience from the university. Where
the Sponsor has their obligations to you and to the university.
You as an intern are not pigeoned holed into drawing toilet
elevations for six months. There is the educational instuctor
there to make sure it is a meaningful productive arrangement,
for both parties.
There is a program called "Dynamy" for those of you who want to work outside of the box. They have programs in Massachusetts
and California. The program has been around since the 1960's
and are regarded as one of the first people to explore what is known as internships.
Don't ever let anyone buffalo you into thinking you should work for free.....unless your the boss and your doing pro-bono work in which
it might lead to other work.
hustle..... dont put all your eggs in one basket..... work the markets and make some nice business cards that people wont toss out because they are cheap paper
Well, you wanted to hear about a success story, and there are plenty of success stories out there Personally, I started my own firm, solo office, kind of on a whim, because I was sick of my job and quit. I know have a firm that is wildly successful beyond my dreams. I employ over 20 now. Sounds strange, right. Well what made the difference? a couple of things.
- As was said above, a client base of clients who loved me. After I quit, I got calls from at least 6 clients who I had worked for at my previous office who begged me to start my own firm. These were all clients who are repeat commercial clients, who have given me hundreds of jobs over the years, and are still my clients today over a decade later. I worked my butt off to keep them as happy clients. Moral of the story: you need to have a repeat client base. This is difficult in residential. We do residential work still, because it is fun, but it would be difficult to make it financially and have a firm that grows if you just do residential in most markets. You need to build up that business slowly.
- You said you were tired of working for someone else, catering to someone elses needs, having your design decisions tossed out by someone else. Guess what??? What do you think you need to do to keep a client happy? You are building their dream house, not yours. I can't tell you how many jobs I have done where I followed another architect who was fired because the did not listen. I am proud of the work I do, it has won AIA design awards, etc. BUT --- It is designed to satisfy my client's dreams, not mine. If you look at my portfolio, you will see lots of different types of work- that tuscan kitchen you disdain, an addition to a tudor, a modern house, a timber frame house, a craftsman style house.... it goes on. Do you think I am a sell out? I loved working on each on. The clients are thrilled. My job is to cater to someone else's needs, not mine. That is why my clients do all of my marketing for me. I never ever advertise or market, because we do not need to. Moral of the story: if you want to design just for yourself, you will have a very lonely short practice. If you are not willing to SERVE- we are a service business you know, then you should not be out on your own, you will fail.
- Websites: this is the only "advertising" we do. It brings in probably one to two jobs a month, lots of them residential. Not many residential architects have nice websites. So go for it. Most of our work does still come from referals, though.
- Residential versus commercial. You can be a success at either. I think new practicioners have to deside what they want to be doing in 10 years, and work towards that goal. In my case, it involves working on both, because I love both. (call e schizo- I work on low income and high end custom housing, plus commercial, medical and educational) You can have a successful large firm doing just residential if that is what you want, but you need to be in the right market. Commercial work is actually easier to do if you want your firm to be financially strong- you can develop a nice base of repeat clients and contact.
If you want to stick with residential, market as people above said, plus contact larger architectural firms and ask them to provide you with leads. WE turn down residential projects on a regular basis when we can't fit them in our schedule, and I pass them along to two single person offices.
If you want to stick with commercial, market to developers, of course. Also buiding owners who have turn over in thier buildings, leasing agencies, contractors who do turn key projects, clients that have facilities managers such as school districts, universities, hospitals, etc. I am not talking about landing a job to build a new dormitory right off the bat. But universities, for example have hundreds of small projects every year: renovate a classroom wing, convert bathrooms to be ADA compliant, renovate a dining room, small addition to a student center. OK, not dream jobs, but you have to get your foot in the door somewhere. Do them well, and they will lead to larger work. Oh, by the way- "some decision will be overturned by whomever is in charge-"- and it's not YOU! You'll stil have a boss- the client, so get used to it!
- Decide what is important to you. If you only want to do cutting edge design with no comporomises where you call the shots, with the exception of a few firms out there, you will be in for a long struggle working for very little money. If you want to make money, yes, you will have to make compromises. I'm not taking shoddy work or bad details or crappy design, but you will have to take on the boring jobs as well as the interesting ones to keep a client. You might have to delete details you love, or materials you love because the client can't afford them. You might even want to (god forbid) work for some big national sell out chain to put their prototype building on a site in your community. Some architects think that is horrid. You need to decide if it is for you. Personally for me, when I have done that type of work, I have learned a lot, made good contacts, added to my portfolio, made money to give bonues to my employees, and I have improved the prototype and made it better than if I was not involved, (several have won design awards!!!) so I have felt pretty good about it all around. Maybe it would make you shrivel up and die but you are the only one who knows what is important to you.
Good luck! It is not impossible, but I do think you will need a bit of an attitude adjustment if you want to make it.
Archie,
Thanks for your perspective. You seem to have established a rewarding situation for yourself.
It does bring up the question for solo practitioners of how much of their work is bread-and-butter, and how much is the kind of work they dreamt of back in architecture school. None of it? Most of it? Of course, it would be nice to think that someday one could be able to selectively take work. But maybe that's a pipe dream.
An aside: is OldFogey always so abrasive? I appreciate his comments, but his "let me tell you a thing or two, young man" perspective is a tad patronizing.
Re: Old Fogey, if you would just re-read this discussion, you would find out that's not the case. He started out helpful but realistic, and you made it clear that you were unhappy that he wasn't saying what you wanted to hear. He only started taking the attitude you're seeing after you expressed an attitude that you didn't want to hear how hard it was.
Farwest I can totally relate to both Archie and Old Fogey, Both seem to have had some good and bad experiences from which they often relay on this web site. I have had a similar experiences over my career thus far and one comment that sticks with me is to "pick your battles and wars". The battles are often won and lost and some battles need to be sacrificed for the benefit of the war. ( ie not every project needs to be foder for an architectural cover shot ) Some times we take on projects only for an opportunity for a junior staff member to get there feet wet with a small residential job, or its a detailing opportunity I see different things in different jobs and as you learn when you run a project its a lot about work flow.
I can easily say that every project we have is a dream job but the rational for having the job varies hugely depending on what we want out of each project. If we don't see an opportunity for growth, financially, educationally,creatively then we don't take it on and turn it down and we never take on questionable clients that potentially are a problem. A bad client can suck up more time than you can imagine and burn up any income you thought you would make from them. Remember its way easier to stay home and not loose money than taking on a bad client/ job that will bleed you dry.
being an architect certainly is very hard work. that is why i say that architecture choses the person rather than the person chosing tobe an architect. it's a very demanding profession with a very, very long payoff sschedule. passion is the rule rather than the exception.
to the more experienced archinectors. . . have you any experience/ insight/ advice why architects don't pursue development as a release for their architectural demons? the obvious issue is funding and financial risk.
DD - as you know, architects tend to be 'risk averse' individuals ... development takes good financing and you have to put a lot of both time and money at risk to get a deal off the ground. aside from the broader business skill set required, development places you into situations that most architects simply don't want to tackle.
not sure that development is "a release for architectural demons" either ... unless you're fabulously wealthy and don't need partners or banks to make the deal happen, there's always going to be somebody involved with enough clout to keep your design instincts tempered by the marketplace.
Starting My Own Practice (Advice)
sorry farwest, it's just the mood right now. probably a reflection of the market.
you've already got something on us if you're wife has a job outside of architecture and does ok, because that should give you more flexibility and time to build the practice while still having some stability (and hopefully health insurance).
but if you do want kids you'll want to think about how that's going to work if she decides not to go back to work right away - i thought i would but now faced with going back to an office i don't think i can work full time until kid #2 is at least a year old, so a few years away.
other than that - there are lots of threads on figuring out start up costs, business needs, insurance, etc. we read a bunch of books and talked to mentors who had done similar things and had some experience.
one of the most important things i would say is try to maintain a positive attitude, be enthusiatic about design with everyone you meet, esp. potential clients, and try not to burn bridges when you do encounter that horrible client... also, always keep your billing current and if clients don't pay remind them right away and keep on them until they pay.
and try to get a realistic idea of what your overhead costs will be and how much work you need to take in in order to make X amount of dollars - you'll be surprised at how much goes to expenses, taxes etc. even if you're just working at home with no employees.
"If you can do it all, hire a student or two to help you out on CAD and help manage things, even if they have to work for free or for the experience or for the fun."
"NEVER EVER EVER WORK FOR FREE FOR ANYONE PERIOD and NEVER trade design latitude for money."
what's good for the goose is good for the gander, OF. never ever encourage anyone at any level in this profession to work for free OR accept free help.
i'll acknowledge that offices and interns have different approaches to this. i helped an experienced architect start his own practice, but was absolutely uncompromising about being adequately compensated for my time. paying the extra $5 or 10k for my skill set was pennies compared to our overall office expenses, and i believe he respected me more for not capitulating. i would encourage all people working under another architect to take the same approach or find an office that will better respect their talents.
The big difference is that an intern fresh out of school is typically a money loser to a business and many times hired as in investment that hopefully will pay off over time, while a new business should be adding value to a client.
OF, it would be fine to work for free as a personal decision. It may benefit a person's career.
But it sets a terrible precedent for our field. Firms come to expect interns to work for free, and the mentality starts to spread. My first job was in NYC making $24,000 a year and I nearly starved. But there were people in my firm -- foreigners mostly -- who worked for free, and I believe it lowered the wages for everyone. Why hire an intern at $36,000 a year if there's someone right next to them who will do the same job for nothing?
As a result, a young architect who expects to make enough TO SIMPLY EAT is often passed over for the free employee. That seems unreasonable to me. Other professional fields actually have standards for what interns are paid.
I recognize, too, that it's expensive to employ people. A free employee saves a business a lot. But there's an ethical dimension to being an employer that, imho, is sometimes ignored in architecture.
yeah, i have issues with the ethics of not paying someone to work for me while i get paid.
i disagree, tyvek. one of the principles of leveraging hours is that an intern's billable rate is actually the bread winner for most firms. this may not be true in an office of three just starting up, but in a case like that the principal generally knows his or her interns' abilities pretty well.
this has been a really interesting thread so far. my 2-cents.
having your own firm can be great or it can be misery. often at the same time. it takes a special frame of mind, a tremendous willingness to address a wide variety of different issues and problems in the course of every single day. it takes tremendous stamina. it takes tremendous focus to be successful. it takes patience.
in my experience, most design professionals who make the leap can't imagine why they didn't do it sooner. but, it's very different from having a job. as someone above said well, at the end of the day all the really important decisions become yours - you have to be comfortable with that responsibility.
i've been successfully self-employed for 27 years. some of the early years were tough - some of the recent years have been tough (for radically different reasons) but, all of the years have been rewarding in some way or another.
as i look back on those years, i've come to realize that success in your own firm depends a lot on your expectations. if you expect no problems; if you expect work to just fall in your lap; if you expect employees to give the work the same attention you would give it; if you expect to run a firm without learning about, and doing, marketing and accounting and hr management and contracts, etc; if you expect the projects to not have problems; if you expect clients to just automatically pay their bills because you send an invoice; if you expect to avoid having a relationship with a lawyer; if you expect the design freedom you had in school -- if any of these expectations are a major part of your psychology, then you're not likely to have much success on your own.
but, if you're willing to be flexible about these sorts of issues (or can bring along a partner, or so, who will) then having your own firm can be a lot of fun and very rewarding ... you just have to be very clear about your definition of "rewarding" - it means something different to every practitioner i've ever met.
good luck !
working for free is "Slavery"
working for free is not slavery. unlike slavery, both parties enter into this agreement willingly. No one is forcing an intern or anyone else to work for free.
Very true, e. It's an individual choice. But that choice has repercussions beyond the individual -- if it's widespread enough, it affects the entire profession. And not necessarily in a healthy way.
oh, i agree it has implications, but this is a far cry from slavery.
In America....I would still stand to call it SLAVERY!
If you want an internship then you should be affiliated with a university program or another School Program. It is a place
were you are learning from the job but your also getting a
structured learning experience from the university. Where
the Sponsor has their obligations to you and to the university.
You as an intern are not pigeoned holed into drawing toilet
elevations for six months. There is the educational instuctor
there to make sure it is a meaningful productive arrangement,
for both parties.
There is a program called "Dynamy" for those of you who want to work outside of the box. They have programs in Massachusetts
and California. The program has been around since the 1960's
and are regarded as one of the first people to explore what is known as internships.
Don't ever let anyone buffalo you into thinking you should work for free.....unless your the boss and your doing pro-bono work in which
it might lead to other work.
hustle..... dont put all your eggs in one basket..... work the markets and make some nice business cards that people wont toss out because they are cheap paper
b
we seem to be drifting - farwest1 have you received all the perspective you require on this topic?
Hi Farwest;
Well, you wanted to hear about a success story, and there are plenty of success stories out there Personally, I started my own firm, solo office, kind of on a whim, because I was sick of my job and quit. I know have a firm that is wildly successful beyond my dreams. I employ over 20 now. Sounds strange, right. Well what made the difference? a couple of things.
- As was said above, a client base of clients who loved me. After I quit, I got calls from at least 6 clients who I had worked for at my previous office who begged me to start my own firm. These were all clients who are repeat commercial clients, who have given me hundreds of jobs over the years, and are still my clients today over a decade later. I worked my butt off to keep them as happy clients. Moral of the story: you need to have a repeat client base. This is difficult in residential. We do residential work still, because it is fun, but it would be difficult to make it financially and have a firm that grows if you just do residential in most markets. You need to build up that business slowly.
- You said you were tired of working for someone else, catering to someone elses needs, having your design decisions tossed out by someone else. Guess what??? What do you think you need to do to keep a client happy? You are building their dream house, not yours. I can't tell you how many jobs I have done where I followed another architect who was fired because the did not listen. I am proud of the work I do, it has won AIA design awards, etc. BUT --- It is designed to satisfy my client's dreams, not mine. If you look at my portfolio, you will see lots of different types of work- that tuscan kitchen you disdain, an addition to a tudor, a modern house, a timber frame house, a craftsman style house.... it goes on. Do you think I am a sell out? I loved working on each on. The clients are thrilled. My job is to cater to someone else's needs, not mine. That is why my clients do all of my marketing for me. I never ever advertise or market, because we do not need to. Moral of the story: if you want to design just for yourself, you will have a very lonely short practice. If you are not willing to SERVE- we are a service business you know, then you should not be out on your own, you will fail.
- Websites: this is the only "advertising" we do. It brings in probably one to two jobs a month, lots of them residential. Not many residential architects have nice websites. So go for it. Most of our work does still come from referals, though.
- Residential versus commercial. You can be a success at either. I think new practicioners have to deside what they want to be doing in 10 years, and work towards that goal. In my case, it involves working on both, because I love both. (call e schizo- I work on low income and high end custom housing, plus commercial, medical and educational) You can have a successful large firm doing just residential if that is what you want, but you need to be in the right market. Commercial work is actually easier to do if you want your firm to be financially strong- you can develop a nice base of repeat clients and contact.
If you want to stick with residential, market as people above said, plus contact larger architectural firms and ask them to provide you with leads. WE turn down residential projects on a regular basis when we can't fit them in our schedule, and I pass them along to two single person offices.
If you want to stick with commercial, market to developers, of course. Also buiding owners who have turn over in thier buildings, leasing agencies, contractors who do turn key projects, clients that have facilities managers such as school districts, universities, hospitals, etc. I am not talking about landing a job to build a new dormitory right off the bat. But universities, for example have hundreds of small projects every year: renovate a classroom wing, convert bathrooms to be ADA compliant, renovate a dining room, small addition to a student center. OK, not dream jobs, but you have to get your foot in the door somewhere. Do them well, and they will lead to larger work. Oh, by the way- "some decision will be overturned by whomever is in charge-"- and it's not YOU! You'll stil have a boss- the client, so get used to it!
- Decide what is important to you. If you only want to do cutting edge design with no comporomises where you call the shots, with the exception of a few firms out there, you will be in for a long struggle working for very little money. If you want to make money, yes, you will have to make compromises. I'm not taking shoddy work or bad details or crappy design, but you will have to take on the boring jobs as well as the interesting ones to keep a client. You might have to delete details you love, or materials you love because the client can't afford them. You might even want to (god forbid) work for some big national sell out chain to put their prototype building on a site in your community. Some architects think that is horrid. You need to decide if it is for you. Personally for me, when I have done that type of work, I have learned a lot, made good contacts, added to my portfolio, made money to give bonues to my employees, and I have improved the prototype and made it better than if I was not involved, (several have won design awards!!!) so I have felt pretty good about it all around. Maybe it would make you shrivel up and die but you are the only one who knows what is important to you.
Good luck! It is not impossible, but I do think you will need a bit of an attitude adjustment if you want to make it.
Archie,
Thanks for your perspective. You seem to have established a rewarding situation for yourself.
It does bring up the question for solo practitioners of how much of their work is bread-and-butter, and how much is the kind of work they dreamt of back in architecture school. None of it? Most of it? Of course, it would be nice to think that someday one could be able to selectively take work. But maybe that's a pipe dream.
An aside: is OldFogey always so abrasive? I appreciate his comments, but his "let me tell you a thing or two, young man" perspective is a tad patronizing.
Re: Old Fogey, if you would just re-read this discussion, you would find out that's not the case. He started out helpful but realistic, and you made it clear that you were unhappy that he wasn't saying what you wanted to hear. He only started taking the attitude you're seeing after you expressed an attitude that you didn't want to hear how hard it was.
Farwest I can totally relate to both Archie and Old Fogey, Both seem to have had some good and bad experiences from which they often relay on this web site. I have had a similar experiences over my career thus far and one comment that sticks with me is to "pick your battles and wars". The battles are often won and lost and some battles need to be sacrificed for the benefit of the war. ( ie not every project needs to be foder for an architectural cover shot ) Some times we take on projects only for an opportunity for a junior staff member to get there feet wet with a small residential job, or its a detailing opportunity I see different things in different jobs and as you learn when you run a project its a lot about work flow.
I can easily say that every project we have is a dream job but the rational for having the job varies hugely depending on what we want out of each project. If we don't see an opportunity for growth, financially, educationally,creatively then we don't take it on and turn it down and we never take on questionable clients that potentially are a problem. A bad client can suck up more time than you can imagine and burn up any income you thought you would make from them. Remember its way easier to stay home and not loose money than taking on a bad client/ job that will bleed you dry.
being an architect certainly is very hard work. that is why i say that architecture choses the person rather than the person chosing tobe an architect. it's a very demanding profession with a very, very long payoff sschedule. passion is the rule rather than the exception.
to the more experienced archinectors. . . have you any experience/ insight/ advice why architects don't pursue development as a release for their architectural demons? the obvious issue is funding and financial risk.
DD - as you know, architects tend to be 'risk averse' individuals ... development takes good financing and you have to put a lot of both time and money at risk to get a deal off the ground. aside from the broader business skill set required, development places you into situations that most architects simply don't want to tackle.
not sure that development is "a release for architectural demons" either ... unless you're fabulously wealthy and don't need partners or banks to make the deal happen, there's always going to be somebody involved with enough clout to keep your design instincts tempered by the marketplace.
sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.
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