hell yes architecture is worth it you little twerp. no one gets into this profession to make money. the money can be nice yes, but you have to be able to end the day and say that the work you are doing is saying something, that there is some substance to what you are helping to create. all the money in the world couldn't help me sleep better at night if i couldn't say that to myself at the end of the day. we, as architects, are after something much bigger and more sustaining than money.

how noble of you, archiphreak.

Go for the money....in the end you will be able to afford a house you've designed. Otherwise, you may spend your life draining your soul into others'.
And then get sued. Figure out a way to buy some land, design a building on that site, and sell it for a profit. You will get more reward and sense of accomplishment from that than years of slaving for the office. Architecture is self-fulfilling anyway - and the praise doesn't come cheap.....
(Monday point of view)

nope, not really worth it. but, hey, what else are you going to do?

i dunno, i played with lego and now i can quit. i couldnt do anything else.

I just got my paycheck a minute ago and started weeping.

you get paid on monday mornings?

I remember from a psychology class a study where participants were paid $20 to do a mindless task, while others were asked to do it for no money at all. Those who were paid reported the mindless task to be exactly that, mindless, while those who were unpaid thought the task was quite interesting. The point is, our minds tend to justify meager wages by inventing other reasons for doing something, in the case of architecture- for this great and noble cause of design. But I whenever I drive home from work, I see just how starved the built environment is, and next to nothing built inspires me.

I think the reason the built environment is so starved is because so many of us are willing to do this for subsistence wages, in other words architecture is starved because architects are starved. Good design takes time (=lots of $). If we aren't paid well, we have to cut back on design and conceptual/schematic design becomes a 15 minute phase rather than a process. Then, to make ends meet, we have to take on more and more crap for more and more shady clients, and next thing you know, the country is drowning in a sea of EIFS.

I'm not sure what the best way out of this is, but I like the idea of the architect as developer. If we are truly talented, and say that good design can be done on a budget, and that people will buy it when they see how much better it is than what we're currently being offered, someone has to take a risk and put the money on the table. And if architects aren't "starved," they won't feel the need to do crap work for crap clients. But I don't buy the argument that architecture is reward in and of itself, and that money shouldn't matter. Architecture should matter and be worth it in all senses.

why is it that (at least here in europe) architecture is the only subject not thought in schools?
biology, math, phisics, religious studies, history of art...and yet people have no knowledge in reading the environment they live in.

yeah, start a riot and put architects in the driving seat!

what? it's the only subject not taught in school? that's because it's a specialized discipline, not a basic fundamental subject like math. Do they teach accounting? Law? Medicine? Turf Management?

Gotan Filter - off

man...
this argument will go on for arch-eternity: the money? or the artistic value of architecture?

should we sell out to make big big metal boxes paying us 100K? or stick with the really really cool firm experimenting with organic forms...paying 35K?

stark3d, alot of us have been there. opportunities like yours arise where you're offered 100K knowing you either A-have to put food on your table for your kids, wife blah blah; or B- have to profile with the freshest Bose for your Platinum series Land Rover. fact is- you want more mula.

however..

question here: are your NEEDS for the money greater than the NEEDS to fulfill the creative portion of design that you commit to as an architect? herein lies the crux of the debate. some people feel that alloy rims on the decked out infiniti is what they NEED. some feel that making sure their kids have decent clothes to go to school and still be able to retire before having to pee in a portable toilet attached to their bottoms is what they NEED.

some feel that they could balance the whole art and money thing and get the best out of both.

rare, but possible....

then theres the archie who believes his building will bless the cover of architecture magazine. a vain search for fame. still under the category of a person willing to trade the cash for architectural fame (momentarily, anyway)

point is- the debate still exists, but more than anything it exists in ourselves on what it is we need the money for and what we need the artistic satisfaction for...

I get paid bi-monthly or on the 16th and the 1st. You should see everyone scatter out of here off to the bank over lunch hour on paydays. I'm sure we all have checks already written that exceed our current balances.

I am in your boat A. Same pay dates. But they set up direct deposit so we don't have to go to the bank anymore. :)

Thanks guys for all your great feed back.
I'll have more provoking thoughts for Tuesday.
Hey don't hate me for selling out. Its just reflects
how you really feel about your own pathetic lives.

It depends on your priorities. Can you place a dollar value on your time / how you spend your life?

Myself, I'd like to work in a field that presents new and interesting challenges... Interesting and creative work where I am constantly learning new things, engaging a variety of disciplines.

So, I hope it is worth it. I don't really want to take a boring and repetitive job simply because it pays better, whether it's in architecture, or whether its in another field. I like to think that life is a journey... You've got limited time, so be happy with what you do with it... I hope that my work can be challenging and engaging from now til the day I die... As far as I am concerned, your life does not amount to an accumulation of things or figures (nouns), it's about experiences and explorations (verbs). It's all about what you are doing at any moment, not what you "get" at the end. Cause do we really ever get anything? Hopefully this architecture path leads to a career that will financially rewarding as well, but I can't see myself having any regrets even if I'm not making $100 K a few years from now...

If I had wanted just to make money, I would have gone to law school or got a job at an investment bank after graduating from college... But I think architecture school has opened my eyes to a world of imaginative possibilities and ways of seeing that I'm not sure I would be aware of had I gone to law school or continued in business... I would have probably found something interesting on either of those paths, but I wouldn't be the same person I am now. I do whatever seems interesting to me at any time, and I've never had any regrets.

I think architects are allergic to money. Any time you (try to) talk about money, wages, profit etc. architects react very negatively and try to let you feel guilty about wanting to earn a little bit more. On the same token, architects ask themselves why they don’t earn enough money. It seems to be a bit naïve to blame society for not earning money while you can’t even have a conversation about money. Money is not kryptonite; you are not going to die from it. Architects need to practice their business like a real business. How do you think lawyers got rich? By accident? I don’t think so.

brink, i think what you are saying is 100% right.
i myself went to be a 'sellout' in this show design company, but then my responsibilities are all architecture, graphic design and lots of 3d work both for the design of the show itself and the graphic stuff, and yes the pay is much better than my friends are earning in their architecture jobs, and i actually get to design stuff.
but then at the end of the day its really hard when questions like 'am i going to be doing this all my life' pop up. and its really uncomfortable around hardcore architecture friends.
but im glad my responsibilites are still design-oriented (and making things look beautiful)-though the whole exercise is not as serious as architecture.
wish my lady friend was stinking rich - would marry and do good architecture!

what i'm worried about, is if you plan to have a family, and want to provide your children with opportunities of taking classes outside of school, guitar lessons, private universities, trips with friends, etc. then how can afford it while working for 40k a year?

it seems to me that the ones that stay in design firms that pay little are also the ones that are single or married without children. It's when i meet architects that have 2 or more children, that's when I notice that they work for corporate firms or have switched out of architecture.

Way to go Stark!

Thank god you're out....one less shitty architect who thinks too much about money.

Chasing money and architecture doesn't mix. Good architecture is about helping out. Bad architecture is about feeding your monkey.

Have fun on the car-lot!

"Good architecture is about helping out."

That's funny!

"one less shitty architect "

I am suddenly so sure that ...you are an utterly non-shitty architect

hey pompous a-hole luckyitem, what do you do???? can you please show us how and whom you're helping out and what good architecture they are doing

i hope you were being sarcastic.

its funny how many architects screw themselves over with little money thinking they are doing a big service to society. Not to mean offense, but most of the people whom ive met and think this way are people who could not do anything else to survive - not because they dont want to, but just because they cannot.

i like it, i tried to sell out and all i got was architecture.

thanks again for all your kind words.
I not a shitty Architect, just found an easy way to make alot of money.
Hell if I had it all to do over again and just wanted to make money.
I would have become a drug runner not just any Drug runner more like a kingpin. But you Keep chaisng that 40K a year job, hoping the Economy won't go to shit. Working on your third wife i bet. Going blind with chest pains, yeah keep up the good work and you can retire when your dead.

stark3d...
so there's been a little hate thrown your way...get over yourself
already...90k a year is good but not great...40k is enough to live
on in most parts of the country...and if you're still making 40k more
than four or five years into the profession then that's just your own
fault...i think the good thing about an architectural education is that
it allows for branching out and creative thinking and you took
advantage of it....but that's just my two cents...

your hate and boring stereotypical name calling makes you just
an ahole with some money...congratulations..now i'm sure you'll
be happy with all your cash like all the other really happy rich people..
or maybe you've already found out that happiness has nothing to do
with money...

tman: I see your point, that perhaps my perspective will change once I have other priorities and obligations that come with having a family...

But in response to Pete, I hope that it's possible to both do interesting, engaging work and be financially successful as well... It's not that I think architects should be poor business people. On the contrary, I think that being a good designer is what provides a design firm with a quality product, and is the foundation upon which any business should be built. Good intelligent design and thoughtful, sensible work that engages relevant issues make an architectural practice more marketable to potential clients than work which is dumb and boring. Maybe I am naively optimistic, but I believe that good design is easier to sell than poor design... I mean, what are we as architects? What value do provide to our work, if not our own art, creativity, innovation, craft, intelligence, and problem solving?

Maybe I am naive, but I think the problem with architects 'selling out' and doing thoughtless design is a problem of "low professional self esteem"... devaluing our own abilities, and a lack of confidence in the value that our profession can offer a client... Let's not kid ourselves. Nobody "needs" designers, like they need food and water. Design is more like the chef who prepares a particular food. Our only real asset as a profession is our design intelligence, how we enhance our work beyond what is purely pragmatic. It's not the 'design firms' that keep architects poor. It's the lack of ambition by the majority of firms, the insecurity and paralysis of the entrepreneurial spirit, the lack of creativity that keeps our profession 'poor'.

Isn't architecture in the business of innovation and problem solving? Are we not an idea profession? If not, then what are we good for?

i agree with luckyitem and with kyll...i'd take the 35k over 100k any day of the week. think i'm kidding?

To be honest, architecture as a practiced profession is not at all worth it..pretty buildings..not worth it...even 'interesting' buildings. I think the reason why professionalized architecture is slowly seeping into other domains (and the other way around) is because a lot of people get tricked into thinking architecture is exciting...they enrol and study...find it a drag...and then bastardize architecture with something they think is more interesting (and hence the plethora of student academic papers on 'architecture and sculpture' , 'architecture and music', 'architecture and scatology'...)...so architecture gets more and more exciting as people realise that 'architecture' is just plain boring.

And what the mother of crap is so bad about wanting money, getting it and spending it or just sitting on a pile of it if I really want! If you want to live the life of a third-class citizen soaking in disillusioned bitterness..fine....I'd rather be a first class citizen soaking in smug bitterness! Pft.... putting the pursuit of architecture (aww..how sweet) against the pursuit of money is simply passé and ,franky, brattish...and secretly envious..no?

Personally, I'll do a few more years of architecture then do something else. I'm fickle'like'dat.

bRink, I agreed with what you were saying until

"It's the lack of ambition by the majority of firms, the insecurity and paralysis of the entrepreneurial spirit, the lack of creativity that keeps our profession 'poor'.
"

That I completely disagree with. The problem is that there are no sales people. Two firms that I've worked for recently (I have my own company and do contract work occasionally) have both had brilliant, full time, marketing teams. They both do mediocre work but are rolling the cashing and in the work. A good salesman can sell anything. Sure, it's easier to sell something that is good, but unfortunately, most architects that are good think their stuff should sell on it's own.

Or maybe I've just reinforced your argument? Hmmm.

whoa now- kyll never said to take 35K over 100K to satisfy poor man design over rich boredom. i was just stating where the need to satisfy this money binge comes from- or if it indeed is a "NEED" to begin with.
and tman said something that totally makes sense. if you were an undersexed (or oversexxed) archie student- maybe you plugged up someone out of graduating and now have a kid or two and spouse- leaving you with a choice to be a deadbeat dad/mom or a provider. that right there cut off about 3/4 of the firms in the US that would take on a 3yr removed graduate asking for +90K.

if single and unspawned- maybe its possible to pull off a 35-40K and still be quasi-hip enough to barhop thursdays and club all weekend on a decent budget.
point is- the consequences are grave depending on your situation and it all has to be balanced out as to whats more important

I'll be the first to admit i'm an over-sexxed student with bright ideas and morals, but i've made alot of money before, and doing that made me miserable.
I wasn't better off with more money - I was way happier with less.

I'd rather chase betterment than money, but i guess each to his own purpose.

It's hilarious how people confuse luxury with being comfortable.

uneDITed:

I disagree. Architecture is not boring. No discipline is truly an isolated category in practice. Not just architecture, but anything you do would be a drag if you really tried to limit it to the "boundaries" of its discipline. Maybe people like to be able to pigeonhole architecture, and define limits to what it is and what it isn't just so that they can feel secure in what their area of expertise is... But I think it's the boundaries that are boring, not architecture. Disciplines are just constructs of bureaucrats. It's not architecture that is boring and which cannot make money, it's the lack of imagination. Sure, architecture can be sculptural, and musical, etc. Architects are not just building envelope experts or programming experts (although some might choose to be)... What is pure 'architecture'? Or what is pure anything for that matter...? It's not really about architecture at all... But I don't really think everything is about money. Is everything we do really just a contract, and exchange of services (in a really boring sense) for money? Has any really successful business person ever really just provided an undifferentiated boring product?

trace:

I agree. Salesmanship is essential to a successful business. Nothing sells itself. But nobody can deny that a firm that has a portfolio of good work, given the same sales team, could do alot better than a firm with a reputation for mediocre work...

The problem I think is that when firms begin to depend primarily on salesmanship over design, they are in fact devaluing their own work, the only thing that they really have. If every firm did this, lowering cost, reducing quality of the work, what would happen to the profession as a whole? The total number of projects does not really increase, so the industry's total revenue simply goes down. In a way, it's like selling your own profession: undercutting your competitors by eliminating your real product (design itself), so firms can only differentiate themselves by how little they charge, how quickly they can sell to keep themselves afloat. That's why the profession becomes poor: it's not that designers choose to take less money in order to focus on design, but rather that they work in a diluted market where their own assets (their design intelligence and creativity) are undervalued or often no longer exist...

well...when i say boring...I mean I find it boring. After all, boredom is a very subjective thing. I can't say architecture is boring in absolute. It needs to bore someone (me) to be boring..but it doesnt need to bore you for it to bore me.

and please, when I say something like that..I say it with knowedge of my own being-stupid..I know I'm being stupid whilst saying it...but because I recognize what is stupid within my statement (and I know ur criticism without u having to voice it...i mean, its obvious) I also recognize what isnt stupid about it. Notice I put architecture within a postmodern ' ' bracket in order to draw attention to a particular and individual (not a general/cultural) manner of seeing architecture.

Bluntly, I am not synonymous with architecture and find it stupid to enslave myself either to a complete and utter interest in architecture (and trivialize other interests by calling them 'hobbies') or to 'architectural' ways of thinking simply because I happened to study and work in the profession. Yes..it bores me..and mostly it bores me because I want it to bore me...its there to serve me, not the other way around. After I die I aint taking them stones and concrete with me. And plus, 'architecture' is just sooooo overrated amongst architects.

Agreed. 'Architecture' isn't who I am either, it's just something that I do... 'Architecture' as you put it that way is pretty boring to me too...

To be honest, I'd rather have everything be my profession, so whether listening to jazz or skateboarding or playing a video game or digging up fossils, integrating that into a design for a building...

So, yeah, I guess I'm just bored.

Answer Was Yes
What else could we do?
Sale cars or houses. Like so many who tried to be Architects.
God I pity you whimps.
Those who say they can not make money in this
business, hasn't tried hard enough.
God be with the rest of Us that Stayed True to Our Dreams.

"The problem I think is that when firms begin to depend primarily on salesmanship over design," bRink

I agree that there has to be a balance. You can't get too absobed in the salesmanship, but you can't rely on the design to sell itself. It seems that most firms go one way or the other. I've worked for both kinds, and there certainly was no balance.

It's a complex situation, I just hope that good design becomes more appreciated, and the pay for architects becomes based on this, otherwise, we are all exactly the same to the public (with the exception of size and specialty, like Gensler).

But I fear that most architects think they are 'good designers', which is simply not true, as evidenced by our country side of crap. Then there is the AIA that markets that AIA architects are better, which ain't true either. We'll see. I think the next ten years will be crucial, at least for the smaller scale architecture.

ok, so we are never going to be raking in the top, top dollars. But this is a profession where you can easily make over 100K if you are in some kind of ownership position in a firm, and you will enjoy what you do. Better than spending every day bored out of your mind counting down the days till retirement just to make an extra few thousand a year in engineering or sales.