This is really unbelieveable. After more than 5 years, dozens of changes to the designs, work stoppages, and complete re-starts, it looks like we are going back to square one. How is this possible?
Are they serious about selling the land and possibly initiating a new design for the site?!?!
It is a tragedy that this open wound sits there, 5 years and 7 months later, while politicans and developers argue.
This site is more than a couple square blocks to make money off of. It is more than squarefootage. It is more than realestate! It is holy ground where thousands of people died. We should treat it as such and close the wound in lower manhattan.
For fucks sake! JUST FUCKING BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY! This is supposed to be NYC, captialism central, why is it taking so long to build something down there? I'm not even sure if i care what it looks like at this point, i WANT MY SKYLINE BACK!
I would actually rather see them delay the project and start the design process over again, than to see that sorry excuse of a "Freedom Tower" get built. An extra couple years won't make a difference in the long run, but the city will be stuck with the final results for decades.
LiG- you're the voice of reason. In all honesty a redesign would probably be a good thing in the long run but i just get so tired of looking at this hole in my city, seeing all this money and effort thrown into it, and nothing come out of it. It really is annoying.
Chalk that up to typical NYC politics. Even typical smaller projects elsewhere in the city are often subject to needless delays and political bullshit. When you have a much larger site, with a tangled web of feuding government and private entities, and all the high emotions associated with 9/11, it's a recipe for gridlock. I'll be shocked if/when anything gets built on that site.
LIG,
I see your point about a redesign, but I think most here in NYC feel as though the entire project has taken on a whole new character than what is was originally meant to be.
This was supposed to be a memorial to all the lost men and women. That ground is litterally a cemetery. They are still pulling bone fragments out of the street every week!
I completely agree with you that the current design is quite a sorry excuse for a towering statement of rebirth and strength. But it is even greater of an insult that they stop and start and pull back and push forward these lame designs. People want closure.
I feel now, as I did on September 12th, that this site should never be a tower again. It is hallowed ground where we should be able to go to remeber the fallen.
Maybe it's best if nothing ever is built there? Close the wound, leave the scar for all to remember?
I'm actually glad that Childs' design for the Freedom Tower may not get built.
New Yorkers don't need an empty (literally and figuratively) symbol to replace the World Trade Center. I think that moving forward with the memorial and delaying the quagmire that is the tower would be the most appropriate way to proceed right now.
it would be disingenuous to construct anything there. that big ol hole is the perfect testament to the amount of denial this country is in regarding our position within a global problem and the political and economic confluence of events that led to it. the hole is there to be filled with empty rhetoric and to bury our heads in.
The wtc site/tower nonsense, like all post-911 politics, is total bullshit. The bottom line is that all anyone gives a fuck about is cash; how to exploit the tragedy to the greatest extent/most profit. The loss of the towers and surrounding buildings was a serious boon to the developers: sweet; mad insurance money, the buildings were torn down and the sites were cleared for free, all leases were easily broken, etc. What better way to say "fuck you" to those freedom haters than building even taller, shitter and nore expensive buildings in place of the WTC complex? TAKE THAT OSAMA. And besides, "New Yorkers" don't need shit, and most could care less unless it interfered with their commute to work.
Not to get off topic here, but what's the architectural fee on a $2.88 billion project? Let's say a conservative 8%, that equals $230 million. I have no idea how many hours go into a project like that, but I'm guessing there will still be a tidy profit for SOM.
I have heard this argument to turn the site into a huge cemetary so many times and I've always felt that it buries us in the pathetic realities of post-911, 21st century america too much. I want a tower there, it could be anything really, it doesn't even have to be an office tower, it could just be a spire. I just want something tall, something that pierces the sky, something that sends a clear message to the whole world that America isn't afraid of moving forward and we aren't afraid to dream and build tall. Something that reminds the citizens that we are apart of something great. I know america has its faults, i know it better than most, but i've always found solice in our historic ability to stare fear in face and never blink, a resolve to innovate and move forward in the face of adversity. We've long since lost that ability, we've grown too fat and too prosperous to take the risks required to truly progress as a nation. We're a nation spiraling towards obsolescence while other nations like China are spiraling upward. To me, "the pit" symbolizes the New America far better than the half-assed totalitarian designs for Freedom Tower with it's bunker base and massive setbacks. At least the Freedom Tower is something. To me, unless we build tall on ground zero we acknowledge the fact that America, and especially New York, have long since passed their prime. We have as a nation have lost the only thing that matters, our "freedom from fear".
did anyone see 60 minutes this past sunday (feb 21) and the story on ground zero?
we still have the huge delays and design changes ..
if it were up to me i would just build the calatrava train station and the memorial and that's it. if tower(s) make sense down the road let them happen but start with the train station and the memorial so at least something gets done.
I agree Apurimac, leaving it as a cemetery would just emphasize a downward trend. I've never understood the mentality of taking up great land (for the living) and giving it over to the dead, but that's just me. Show me a great memorial, carefully thought out and a place of contemplation, but not a big hole that compromises progress (as prime real estate would do).
Let's get back to a vision, something great, something grand and something special. Not some stupid political mess that showed it's ugly horns before the original competition was even finished (SOM power plays).
Someone's gotta take control of this and kick all the battling parties to the curb, get something of quality built. This is one of the few opportunities the US has to show that it is still on the map.
that's your favorite one of the original competition alternatives Strit?
the Calatrava train station is under construction now isn't it? There's a big orange pile of steel under construction at that site now.. I pass it everyday, but it doesn't look much like something that can morph into the Calatrava building.
rabbits What better way to say "fuck you" to those freedom haters than building even taller, shitter and nore expensive buildings in place of the WTC complex?
if you're gonna be building just to say fuck you to others, why don't you propose a building in the shape of a huge fist giving the finger? as a side note, in middle eastern cultures the gesture is the middle finger extended horizontally from an open hand.
Apurimac I just want something tall, something that pierces the sky, something that sends a clear message to the whole world that America isn't afraid of moving forward and we aren't afraid to dream and build tall. Something that reminds the citizens that we are apart of something great. I know america has its faults, i know it better than most, but i've always found solice in our historic ability to stare fear in face and never blink, a resolve to innovate and move forward in the face of adversity
what are you, a 1950's Superman? your country's foreign policies are shit; you wage unjust wars, you talk of human rights and violate them on other people's lands. you work your own people to humiliation and deny them decent health care, education, a decent diet and protection against giant food, energy, pharmaceutical ...entities. you are one of the most ignorant uninformed "developed" nations; your people are neither well versed in history nor in geography.... most of you care more about britney's latest sting in rehab than about what your army is doing to innocents in afghanistan. your typical diet staple is rife with carcinogenic chemicals and preservative, salt and fat to smother your nonchalant hearts in.
you are far from being great; you're a sorry case of a nation that care more for profit than for well being.
you can just call me tammuz if you wish.
There is such an entity as America (erratum...its the US..stop thinking you're a whole continent)? Are you not represented by a goverment and an army? Do not most of your fellow americans not eat shit? Can the majority of U.S citizens place Iraq and Afghanistan on a map? Does not this majority determine your country's identity and destiny?
if by generalisations you mean an accumulative outcome then no, it doesn't make me feel good. why would i feel good about something sad. and no, it is not contradicted by my acquaintance with informed and globally minded americans, self-confessed..a minority.
tammuz, i love being critical of the US, but can you please tell me which country is not filled with racists and hypocrites? i'll wait while you get a map.
we're going off topic here, but tammuz let me try to explain the 'america' thing as opposed to 'u.s.a.'.
in north america there is canada, the united states of america, and mexico.
central america has guatemala, belize, honduras, el salvador, nicaragua, costa rica, and panama.
south america has argentina, bolivia, brazil, chile, columbia, ecuador, faulkland islands, french guiana, guyana, paraguay, peru, south georgia and south sandwich islands, suriname, uruguay, and venezuela.
the only country with 'america' in its name is the united states of america so just to keep things short-n-sweet the u.s. of a. is often just shortened to 'america'. this is generally understood 'round the world and all rational people know when people say 'america' you are talking about the united states of america and when people say 'americans' they are speaking of u.s. citizens. it has nothing to do with thinking the u.s. is the entire continent so take a chill pill and relax and enjoy archinect as i do thank you and good night!
Canadians seem to have accepted that they are "Canada" and we are "America." The naming issue does create some tension with Latin Americans every now and than. Of course, we haven't really enforced mercantalism or Canada, or assassinated any of their leaders, or funded the training of torturers of their dissidents, or plotted any coups against them (meaining Canadians), so I can sort of understanding why they're a bit more open on this issue than those to the south of us may be.
Urbanist... are you forgetting that the United States has underminded most of the conflicts of Central and South America?
If it was sugar or cocaine or oil, there's been some reason we've been mucking it up. The only exceptions were ... wait, the CIA has been involved in everything since 1960. And if it wasn't the CIA, it was the OSS. And before that, it was the SS.
The US has been a big contributor to poverty in the western world as well. A lot of the "messes" in the West are a direct result of US involvement. The most recent example? Haiti. People seem to forget that we "owned" that place for a considerable portion of the 20th century.
Not only did we recommend policies that lead to the physical destruction of that land, our occupation destabilized the border which lead to an institutional policy in the Dominican Republic regarding their positions on Haitians (namely, it is "shoot on sight.")
I personally prefer the term U.S. and the demonym "statesmen or stateswomen."
If we really want to nitpick... we use the term America because of the furor the Spanish Empire caused by their "discovery." And that what constitutes America is history of savage, unforgivable behavior.
If you want go for accuracy, this place would technically be Vinlandia. I don't know the Inuit word for America. But the Vikings and the Inuit showed up here about the same time on opposite coasts. (Ignoring the fact that people still lived hear.)
However, most people in the world actually refer to us as being from the U.S. but being American. However, the use of the word American really isn't specific to which country.
But this is highly off topic. Highly inappropriate. And this conversation saddens me that we cannot move past hate.
I'm not saying don't get rid of it. Just admit that you are a hater, bite your tongue and you will be able to converse with people in a manner not inciting violence.
Please read Apurimac's "We are/American is great" post. and rabbit's "Fuck everyone else" post. Mine were a reaction against such nonsense. in no way have i steered off topic. in fact, you could read this as an implicit criticism of isolatory nationalism and architecture as a preclusive signifier.
Yes, admittedly I did generalize; I have to, because U.S policies internally and externally favour generalisations..whether in the form of a handful giant corporations that feed you and your children a slow acting poison of intense sugars, salts, fats and non-edible chemicals or misinformation that leads to the muder of tens of thousands of people in other places or is at the forefront of destabilising the world ecologican integreity....or in the form of wars against mythical "enemies" who voice their criticisms of U.S harassment (for the sake of fuel, strategic location, etc) of usually poorer countries in latin america, the middle east..etc...or in the form of internal harassment of minorities encouraged by media-fueled propoganda that depicts arabs and muslims or whomever as being ominously different.
But, whether you wish to accept this or not, quite simply, I have no hatred ...why am i being a hater by pointing out that its a human-fabricated system that has encroached inhumanely on its own and on others;? i am also not rallying after typically anti-US countries either simply to accord with their critical position, most of who have their own share of woes. this is not about ideology and abstraction, i have no ideology. wanting to building just another "fuck you" statement is ideological, however.
from the article The foundations under construction now, they note, can be used for buildings other than the Freedom Tower.so, first it was libeskind's..which was largely seen to be a bland 21st century compromise of 20th century "avant garde" architecture
then it was SOM's which was a compromise of Libeskind's
then, later, it might very well be a compromise of SOM's
and the only thing those successive devolutions are to have in common is 3000 yards of concrete buried underground.
how about just rebuild the originals, but swap the footprints with the original podium to leave room for the memorial where the two original footprints were? somebody must still have the original drawings and they can be tweaked... and greened. I rather liked those two buildings.
the atrocity AKA the Freedom Tower + the port authority
This is really unbelieveable. After more than 5 years, dozens of changes to the designs, work stoppages, and complete re-starts, it looks like we are going back to square one. How is this possible?
Are they serious about selling the land and possibly initiating a new design for the site?!?!
It is a tragedy that this open wound sits there, 5 years and 7 months later, while politicans and developers argue.
This site is more than a couple square blocks to make money off of. It is more than squarefootage. It is more than realestate! It is holy ground where thousands of people died. We should treat it as such and close the wound in lower manhattan.
don't blame me... I voted for two large pits in which we could toss all the developers in the world into...
For fucks sake! JUST FUCKING BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY! This is supposed to be NYC, captialism central, why is it taking so long to build something down there? I'm not even sure if i care what it looks like at this point, i WANT MY SKYLINE BACK!
Sorry.
I would actually rather see them delay the project and start the design process over again, than to see that sorry excuse of a "Freedom Tower" get built. An extra couple years won't make a difference in the long run, but the city will be stuck with the final results for decades.
LiG- you're the voice of reason. In all honesty a redesign would probably be a good thing in the long run but i just get so tired of looking at this hole in my city, seeing all this money and effort thrown into it, and nothing come out of it. It really is annoying.
Chalk that up to typical NYC politics. Even typical smaller projects elsewhere in the city are often subject to needless delays and political bullshit. When you have a much larger site, with a tangled web of feuding government and private entities, and all the high emotions associated with 9/11, it's a recipe for gridlock. I'll be shocked if/when anything gets built on that site.
LIG,
I see your point about a redesign, but I think most here in NYC feel as though the entire project has taken on a whole new character than what is was originally meant to be.
This was supposed to be a memorial to all the lost men and women. That ground is litterally a cemetery. They are still pulling bone fragments out of the street every week!
I completely agree with you that the current design is quite a sorry excuse for a towering statement of rebirth and strength. But it is even greater of an insult that they stop and start and pull back and push forward these lame designs. People want closure.
I feel now, as I did on September 12th, that this site should never be a tower again. It is hallowed ground where we should be able to go to remeber the fallen.
Maybe it's best if nothing ever is built there? Close the wound, leave the scar for all to remember?
Same here, i was actually stunned to see foundation work on freedom tower last time i was down there, it gave me hope.
I agree, Entasis.
I'm actually glad that Childs' design for the Freedom Tower may not get built.
New Yorkers don't need an empty (literally and figuratively) symbol to replace the World Trade Center. I think that moving forward with the memorial and delaying the quagmire that is the tower would be the most appropriate way to proceed right now.
it would be disingenuous to construct anything there. that big ol hole is the perfect testament to the amount of denial this country is in regarding our position within a global problem and the political and economic confluence of events that led to it. the hole is there to be filled with empty rhetoric and to bury our heads in.
The wtc site/tower nonsense, like all post-911 politics, is total bullshit. The bottom line is that all anyone gives a fuck about is cash; how to exploit the tragedy to the greatest extent/most profit. The loss of the towers and surrounding buildings was a serious boon to the developers: sweet; mad insurance money, the buildings were torn down and the sites were cleared for free, all leases were easily broken, etc. What better way to say "fuck you" to those freedom haters than building even taller, shitter and nore expensive buildings in place of the WTC complex? TAKE THAT OSAMA. And besides, "New Yorkers" don't need shit, and most could care less unless it interfered with their commute to work.
-andrew
Not to get off topic here, but what's the architectural fee on a $2.88 billion project? Let's say a conservative 8%, that equals $230 million. I have no idea how many hours go into a project like that, but I'm guessing there will still be a tidy profit for SOM.
yeah, right after they finish paying off the LMDC and the port authority
oh and the rest of the firms they screwed over
chili davis-that's a sick car! what's the name of the car?
um... nissan skyline?
the wound is still open
I have heard this argument to turn the site into a huge cemetary so many times and I've always felt that it buries us in the pathetic realities of post-911, 21st century america too much. I want a tower there, it could be anything really, it doesn't even have to be an office tower, it could just be a spire. I just want something tall, something that pierces the sky, something that sends a clear message to the whole world that America isn't afraid of moving forward and we aren't afraid to dream and build tall. Something that reminds the citizens that we are apart of something great. I know america has its faults, i know it better than most, but i've always found solice in our historic ability to stare fear in face and never blink, a resolve to innovate and move forward in the face of adversity. We've long since lost that ability, we've grown too fat and too prosperous to take the risks required to truly progress as a nation. We're a nation spiraling towards obsolescence while other nations like China are spiraling upward. To me, "the pit" symbolizes the New America far better than the half-assed totalitarian designs for Freedom Tower with it's bunker base and massive setbacks. At least the Freedom Tower is something. To me, unless we build tall on ground zero we acknowledge the fact that America, and especially New York, have long since passed their prime. We have as a nation have lost the only thing that matters, our "freedom from fear".
did anyone see 60 minutes this past sunday (feb 21) and the story on ground zero?
we still have the huge delays and design changes ..
if it were up to me i would just build the calatrava train station and the memorial and that's it. if tower(s) make sense down the road let them happen but start with the train station and the memorial so at least something gets done.
I agree Apurimac, leaving it as a cemetery would just emphasize a downward trend. I've never understood the mentality of taking up great land (for the living) and giving it over to the dead, but that's just me. Show me a great memorial, carefully thought out and a place of contemplation, but not a big hole that compromises progress (as prime real estate would do).
Let's get back to a vision, something great, something grand and something special. Not some stupid political mess that showed it's ugly horns before the original competition was even finished (SOM power plays).
Someone's gotta take control of this and kick all the battling parties to the curb, get something of quality built. This is one of the few opportunities the US has to show that it is still on the map.
that's your favorite one of the original competition alternatives Strit?
the Calatrava train station is under construction now isn't it? There's a big orange pile of steel under construction at that site now.. I pass it everyday, but it doesn't look much like something that can morph into the Calatrava building.
I actually liked that one to strlt_typ
[img]
http://z.about.com/d/manhattan/1/0/w/D/design_finalist_United_Architects_1.jpg width=410[/img]
rabbits What better way to say "fuck you" to those freedom haters than building even taller, shitter and nore expensive buildings in place of the WTC complex?
if you're gonna be building just to say fuck you to others, why don't you propose a building in the shape of a huge fist giving the finger? as a side note, in middle eastern cultures the gesture is the middle finger extended horizontally from an open hand.
Apurimac I just want something tall, something that pierces the sky, something that sends a clear message to the whole world that America isn't afraid of moving forward and we aren't afraid to dream and build tall. Something that reminds the citizens that we are apart of something great. I know america has its faults, i know it better than most, but i've always found solice in our historic ability to stare fear in face and never blink, a resolve to innovate and move forward in the face of adversity
what are you, a 1950's Superman? your country's foreign policies are shit; you wage unjust wars, you talk of human rights and violate them on other people's lands. you work your own people to humiliation and deny them decent health care, education, a decent diet and protection against giant food, energy, pharmaceutical ...entities. you are one of the most ignorant uninformed "developed" nations; your people are neither well versed in history nor in geography.... most of you care more about britney's latest sting in rehab than about what your army is doing to innocents in afghanistan. your typical diet staple is rife with carcinogenic chemicals and preservative, salt and fat to smother your nonchalant hearts in.
you are far from being great; you're a sorry case of a nation that care more for profit than for well being.
i wonder whether another tall bulding will close that wound for you
Wow, I can't remember ever feeling like being stereotyped so badly before, that's an impressive rant, t a m m u z.
Generalization just feels so good, huh? Much easier than thinking for yourself and getting to know actual individuals.
you can just call me tammuz if you wish.
There is such an entity as America (erratum...its the US..stop thinking you're a whole continent)? Are you not represented by a goverment and an army? Do not most of your fellow americans not eat shit? Can the majority of U.S citizens place Iraq and Afghanistan on a map? Does not this majority determine your country's identity and destiny?
if by generalisations you mean an accumulative outcome then no, it doesn't make me feel good. why would i feel good about something sad. and no, it is not contradicted by my acquaintance with informed and globally minded americans, self-confessed..a minority.
tammuz, i love being critical of the US, but can you please tell me which country is not filled with racists and hypocrites? i'll wait while you get a map.
we're going off topic here, but tammuz let me try to explain the 'america' thing as opposed to 'u.s.a.'.
in north america there is canada, the united states of america, and mexico.
central america has guatemala, belize, honduras, el salvador, nicaragua, costa rica, and panama.
south america has argentina, bolivia, brazil, chile, columbia, ecuador, faulkland islands, french guiana, guyana, paraguay, peru, south georgia and south sandwich islands, suriname, uruguay, and venezuela.
the only country with 'america' in its name is the united states of america so just to keep things short-n-sweet the u.s. of a. is often just shortened to 'america'. this is generally understood 'round the world and all rational people know when people say 'america' you are talking about the united states of america and when people say 'americans' they are speaking of u.s. citizens. it has nothing to do with thinking the u.s. is the entire continent so take a chill pill and relax and enjoy archinect as i do thank you and good night!
FRaC
Canadians seem to have accepted that they are "Canada" and we are "America." The naming issue does create some tension with Latin Americans every now and than. Of course, we haven't really enforced mercantalism or Canada, or assassinated any of their leaders, or funded the training of torturers of their dissidents, or plotted any coups against them (meaining Canadians), so I can sort of understanding why they're a bit more open on this issue than those to the south of us may be.
Urbanist... are you forgetting that the United States has underminded most of the conflicts of Central and South America?
If it was sugar or cocaine or oil, there's been some reason we've been mucking it up. The only exceptions were ... wait, the CIA has been involved in everything since 1960. And if it wasn't the CIA, it was the OSS. And before that, it was the SS.
The US has been a big contributor to poverty in the western world as well. A lot of the "messes" in the West are a direct result of US involvement. The most recent example? Haiti. People seem to forget that we "owned" that place for a considerable portion of the 20th century.
Not only did we recommend policies that lead to the physical destruction of that land, our occupation destabilized the border which lead to an institutional policy in the Dominican Republic regarding their positions on Haitians (namely, it is "shoot on sight.")
I personally prefer the term U.S. and the demonym "statesmen or stateswomen."
If we really want to nitpick... we use the term America because of the furor the Spanish Empire caused by their "discovery." And that what constitutes America is history of savage, unforgivable behavior.
If you want go for accuracy, this place would technically be Vinlandia. I don't know the Inuit word for America. But the Vikings and the Inuit showed up here about the same time on opposite coasts. (Ignoring the fact that people still lived hear.)
However, most people in the world actually refer to us as being from the U.S. but being American. However, the use of the word American really isn't specific to which country.
But this is highly off topic. Highly inappropriate. And this conversation saddens me that we cannot move past hate.
I'm not saying don't get rid of it. Just admit that you are a hater, bite your tongue and you will be able to converse with people in a manner not inciting violence.
Can't change the past.
mont,
I think you just made my point.. or we're making the same point ;-)
Please read Apurimac's "We are/American is great" post. and rabbit's "Fuck everyone else" post. Mine were a reaction against such nonsense. in no way have i steered off topic. in fact, you could read this as an implicit criticism of isolatory nationalism and architecture as a preclusive signifier.
Yes, admittedly I did generalize; I have to, because U.S policies internally and externally favour generalisations..whether in the form of a handful giant corporations that feed you and your children a slow acting poison of intense sugars, salts, fats and non-edible chemicals or misinformation that leads to the muder of tens of thousands of people in other places or is at the forefront of destabilising the world ecologican integreity....or in the form of wars against mythical "enemies" who voice their criticisms of U.S harassment (for the sake of fuel, strategic location, etc) of usually poorer countries in latin america, the middle east..etc...or in the form of internal harassment of minorities encouraged by media-fueled propoganda that depicts arabs and muslims or whomever as being ominously different.
But, whether you wish to accept this or not, quite simply, I have no hatred ...why am i being a hater by pointing out that its a human-fabricated system that has encroached inhumanely on its own and on others;? i am also not rallying after typically anti-US countries either simply to accord with their critical position, most of who have their own share of woes. this is not about ideology and abstraction, i have no ideology. wanting to building just another "fuck you" statement is ideological, however.
can we get back to architecture now and the apparently slow rate of construction at the WTC site?
from the article The foundations under construction now, they note, can be used for buildings other than the Freedom Tower.so, first it was libeskind's..which was largely seen to be a bland 21st century compromise of 20th century "avant garde" architecture
then it was SOM's which was a compromise of Libeskind's
then, later, it might very well be a compromise of SOM's
and the only thing those successive devolutions are to have in common is 3000 yards of concrete buried underground.
how about just rebuild the originals, but swap the footprints with the original podium to leave room for the memorial where the two original footprints were? somebody must still have the original drawings and they can be tweaked... and greened. I rather liked those two buildings.
Why don't we just put back the twin spot lights that pointed in the air? Talk about a tribute.... that was beautiful. THERE - DONE...
problem is that lots and lots of money is involved... have to build something there.
You mean something "profitable," right?
always did like h&dm's thought: to rebuild the wtc as they were..
it WOULD be the ultimate statement
yes, and an ultimate F-U to make them the same, if not more, grand as they were....
OR - a big symbol - or both.... but by god... SOMETHING already... geez
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