Recently, I got accepted by one of the top graduate arch. program. Past two years, I've been working on several highrise residential projects in new york and abroad. Now, I'm getting the responsiblity of project designer, and my first project (1million sf hotel/residential project) as the project designer is about to go into design development phase. My question to you wise people is, what would be a better choice.
Should I stay at the firm one more year for the greater responsibility ,and finish (what I can truly say my own) project, and then go to school next year? It's just that the more I work on the firm, I get sucked into the developer's mind, and lose the sense of my original aspirations
Should I go to grad school now? To explore more opportunites?
The whole reason about wanting to go to grad school was because of my discontent of working on these developer projects. Although this discontent is less now, I still get this occasional urge to get out of this developer business, have this foolish dream of working at true design studios, whatever it may be. Am I really a fool thinking like this? Should I fight off the foolish dreams, and get on with learning the real world?
Having written out above sentences, it seems like I've laid out unreasonable question to you guys... Maybe what I need is not someone's advice, but a sounding board to clear my own decision.
Thanks for keeping up with my babbling.
nova....
can you postpone/defer your entry into this "top notch" school? If they say yes/and you can def do this, then I would say take the time to defer and work on the proj. and then you will be able to better gauge how things go. If they turn sour (on the job) then at least you know when you will be heading off to school....an incentive. If it turns out great, then you possibly will be at this same point next year, but it's always good to have options.
i say go to school... although regardless of what school it is, you won't be guaranteed to find a job at a "true design studio" post graduation... my thinking is this... if you're just starting a 1million SF project now, it is not going to be done in a year, so you're not really sticking around to finish the project up... and even if you did finish the project, you'll be on to the next one and have to make the same decision all over again... there is also the chance that you could stay to work on the project and in 3 months the developer kills it because of market fluctuations and then your working on whatever until the next school year comes around...
the decision that you need to make is whether it makes more sense for you to be in a professional or academic setting at this point in your life... don't make the decision based on a single project... make the choice that is right for you...
Thank you for the really fast responses. This is GREAT.
Both of your arguments are really convincing.
Just to add to squirrelly's opinion, couple of people that I've talked to have advised me to stay on for at least one more year, since I've been working two years at the firm. It seems that people see three years as minimum duration where you would get the whole picture on the projects (especially large scale projects) Do you guys see much difference 2yrs and 3yrs experinence? Even I do feel that going into third year at the firm, my learning curve has accelerated. Another thing is that by working one more year on this project ( which indeed is getting built on a fast track schedule), I do get the more or less full experience on a large scale project. This kind of opportunity would be hard to come by even with more experiences, since there are always the senior people involved in directing the project. My case was, one of exception, for the senior partner gave me subtantial authority on decision making due to time constraints.
Architphil- You raised an issue which I've been grapling for quite a while. Choosing between the professional or academic road. If I stay, especially in current maket where there is great demand for people, I have more leverage for higher position (may be as a senior designer) and greater salary raise. If I go to grad school now, I will probably come back for the similar position a year later, since I did not get to do a full project phases. I know I'm over analyzing everything, and in a dangerous water where I would be unhappy with any decision I make. But, the only thing that I would not want is looking back and regret for not trying. Sorry guys for more of this babbling... It seems that the more choice you get, you're more confused...
I would just go to grad school. Those experiences will always be there for you when you get back into the professional world. My feeling is that it would get harder and harder to get back into the mood of education, the older you get. Not saying that a year is a lot of time, but it looks like a good opportunity to get it out of the way now.
You could always go back to that same office later. It seems like you're doing well enough there and get allong with enough people for that to be a possibility.
of course you could also consider working while in grad school to continue your professional development at the same time... some schools have great co-op programs that have you work in an office for 12-14 hours a week in exchange for a tuition waiver... georgia tech has a very good co-op program which i did not take advantage of...
I dunno....I am at odds here mate, cause I for one, left the idea of work behind and headed straight to grad school, yet I think that the opportunity, whilst it may be there later, has no guarantee of being there; hence my thoughts to you : stay 1 year and defer.
However architphil does make some good points. I still believe that you could add another notch to your belt in the experience side and then utilize this upon entering your grad programme, whereas leaving now, well you would have given up 1) a fantastic opportunity (from the sounds of it) and 2) could only truly have "experience" post grad that would be marginal to a design studio or other firm. I know many have said that this job will be there when you are done (or others like it) but no job is every truly the same.
I don't know...it is a tough decision mate, all i must say to you is: ask yourself (deep down) what is it that will make you happiest now (or in this next year) and then things will start to really become a bit more clear, if not quite focused.
If they offered you a project of 1m sf without grad school; imagine when you return. Bite the bullet, don't be emotive about the decision it has to be made.
There is no price tag on knowledge....go to school have fun, join the archinect school blog
Thanks a lot guys.
Maybe what I am hesitant about is that this kind of chance is not quite likely to happen, even with a graduate degree or more experiences. I see that even at my office quite often. We've got people with ivy graduate degrees and people with years of experinece. They still don't necessarily get the kind of opportunity that I am now hanling with. There are all the factors of office politics of who gets to control, which partner you're on good terms, what kind of jobs you've been working at...etc. Fortunately, I was working with the associates who were very encouraging of me taking the initiative, and the firm was swarmed with so many projects that I was given the chance. I assume, if it was other firm (even at my firm at this stage) it would be harder to be in that kind of position for the project of this scale. Well... now I feel like becoming a chicken, too afraid to take the chance... stay in the familiar and guranteed place, or take the chance...
go back to school...
you'll be surprised how 1 year turns into 2, turns into 3 - you will then be forced with a similar decision on if you should stay to see the project through construction, other projects may start up
a lot of life can happen in that time and before you know it, you may not have the same options for grad school that you do now.
you mention your discontent for the developer driven projects (rightfully so) I would further suggest that after grad school you do not return to this firm. Take your experiences and move on.
Just to add to Squirrelly's last comment... what would make me happy now and next year... For short term, I would most likely enjoy the academic environment. I would love the learning and the heated discussion which I don't quite get at the office, because everyone's either too busy working, or not as interested in the matters as I do. If I stay, as much as I get the satisfaction of being at the center of the project, I would still get stress from the office politics and the inevitably closed minded corporate mentality, and from doing some other mundane projects that I still have work on. So, in short term, I would be still stressing out if I were at the office. However, the reason I'm still pondering on staying at the firm becomes more real once I start to think about my career. I'm not sure if this kind of thinking is right at this point of my career which has a long way to go. Maybe I'm getting impatient, and want a quick success whether for the critical practices that I would have wished to be at, or for the developer projects such as what I am working for now.
Last summer, I was at Glenn Murcutt Master Class in Australia. All of us young, or not so young architects at the master class had been fighting to keep our ideals and passion alive at work where the reality is not always the way we want it to be. We were truly inspired by the way these autralian masters, with their unwavering and idealistic conviction in their practice. When I explained some of my frustration of working for developers as clients, one of the architects, told me that I should not work for 'bad' people, but work under a master architect (not necessarily a starchitect, but someone whom I could respect and learn what I value as right. Back at the office, I soon readjusted to the mind of corporate/commercial firm, thinking more about career success than doing what I really wanted to do. My justification would be that I might be able to influence our firm in some way to a better direction although I know that it's not realistic.
Anyway, the more I think about this work and school, I begin to question my view on career, success, and the feasiblity of my passion.
well novas....one thing is definitely important, that being your sanity. If you feel that you're education and stimulation is most important at this stage in your life, then it seems like grad school is where you need to be heading. Believe me, and please do not misunderstand my comments for anything other than what they are based on (your initial quest - because I found grad school to be satisfying for me mostly, but not as a leverage tool in the "real world" if you will), nevertheless, the key issue is that if you think you may be missing an opportunity whilst at grad school because you passed up the opportunity to work on this 1msf bldg., then I can understand your indicisiveness. I can only agree with you that if you leave, you may never get that same opportunity again (the 1m sf bldg thingy) because no matter what people tell you (that it will be there when you get back) it WONT! You should not lie to yourself about that issue. That's not to say something similar might not spring up, however you are taking the future to be something that is guaranteed, or as a particular idea of what could be....and we don't live in the realm of those types of uncertainty...at least not in this profession (academia is different).
I am sure you get my drift. I understand your feelings on this, but permit me if you will, it sounds like - to me - that you are leaning heavily on going off to grad school (as you should).
The one thing I might add to this is that there are jobs always (at least we hope so) and you can take this experience (from these 2 yrs) to help you get another similar job (if you so choose) after grad school.
well.... if you decide to defer enrollment (most ivies don't allow you to do this and you'd have to reapply again next year with no guarantee of admissions) you have a short 3 year window of opportunity to go to grad school or give up your dream.
Why only 3 years, well the babyboomlet horde is rapidly moving into their college years and the first wave of them will be applying to grad school in 2010/2011- so get in while the getting in is good. There have been a smattering of stories about how tough it's becoming to be accepted into any name school with the undergrad applicant now being 8x as many spots as there are... you were warned that they are coming!
the other reason why you have only three years is your mind will turn into gooey slime if you stay in your current job slaving for the evil capitalist developers.
good luck.
oh, nova - is your grad school acceptance in the same city as the current job?
Apr 6, 07 8:06 pm ·
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Decision - Work or Grad school
Recently, I got accepted by one of the top graduate arch. program. Past two years, I've been working on several highrise residential projects in new york and abroad. Now, I'm getting the responsiblity of project designer, and my first project (1million sf hotel/residential project) as the project designer is about to go into design development phase. My question to you wise people is, what would be a better choice.
Should I stay at the firm one more year for the greater responsibility ,and finish (what I can truly say my own) project, and then go to school next year? It's just that the more I work on the firm, I get sucked into the developer's mind, and lose the sense of my original aspirations
Should I go to grad school now? To explore more opportunites?
The whole reason about wanting to go to grad school was because of my discontent of working on these developer projects. Although this discontent is less now, I still get this occasional urge to get out of this developer business, have this foolish dream of working at true design studios, whatever it may be. Am I really a fool thinking like this? Should I fight off the foolish dreams, and get on with learning the real world?
Having written out above sentences, it seems like I've laid out unreasonable question to you guys... Maybe what I need is not someone's advice, but a sounding board to clear my own decision.
Thanks for keeping up with my babbling.
nova....
can you postpone/defer your entry into this "top notch" school? If they say yes/and you can def do this, then I would say take the time to defer and work on the proj. and then you will be able to better gauge how things go. If they turn sour (on the job) then at least you know when you will be heading off to school....an incentive. If it turns out great, then you possibly will be at this same point next year, but it's always good to have options.
sorry I hope that helped.
i say go to school... although regardless of what school it is, you won't be guaranteed to find a job at a "true design studio" post graduation... my thinking is this... if you're just starting a 1million SF project now, it is not going to be done in a year, so you're not really sticking around to finish the project up... and even if you did finish the project, you'll be on to the next one and have to make the same decision all over again... there is also the chance that you could stay to work on the project and in 3 months the developer kills it because of market fluctuations and then your working on whatever until the next school year comes around...
the decision that you need to make is whether it makes more sense for you to be in a professional or academic setting at this point in your life... don't make the decision based on a single project... make the choice that is right for you...
Thank you for the really fast responses. This is GREAT.
Both of your arguments are really convincing.
Just to add to squirrelly's opinion, couple of people that I've talked to have advised me to stay on for at least one more year, since I've been working two years at the firm. It seems that people see three years as minimum duration where you would get the whole picture on the projects (especially large scale projects) Do you guys see much difference 2yrs and 3yrs experinence? Even I do feel that going into third year at the firm, my learning curve has accelerated. Another thing is that by working one more year on this project ( which indeed is getting built on a fast track schedule), I do get the more or less full experience on a large scale project. This kind of opportunity would be hard to come by even with more experiences, since there are always the senior people involved in directing the project. My case was, one of exception, for the senior partner gave me subtantial authority on decision making due to time constraints.
Architphil- You raised an issue which I've been grapling for quite a while. Choosing between the professional or academic road. If I stay, especially in current maket where there is great demand for people, I have more leverage for higher position (may be as a senior designer) and greater salary raise. If I go to grad school now, I will probably come back for the similar position a year later, since I did not get to do a full project phases. I know I'm over analyzing everything, and in a dangerous water where I would be unhappy with any decision I make. But, the only thing that I would not want is looking back and regret for not trying. Sorry guys for more of this babbling... It seems that the more choice you get, you're more confused...
I would just go to grad school. Those experiences will always be there for you when you get back into the professional world. My feeling is that it would get harder and harder to get back into the mood of education, the older you get. Not saying that a year is a lot of time, but it looks like a good opportunity to get it out of the way now.
You could always go back to that same office later. It seems like you're doing well enough there and get allong with enough people for that to be a possibility.
of course you could also consider working while in grad school to continue your professional development at the same time... some schools have great co-op programs that have you work in an office for 12-14 hours a week in exchange for a tuition waiver... georgia tech has a very good co-op program which i did not take advantage of...
I dunno....I am at odds here mate, cause I for one, left the idea of work behind and headed straight to grad school, yet I think that the opportunity, whilst it may be there later, has no guarantee of being there; hence my thoughts to you : stay 1 year and defer.
However architphil does make some good points. I still believe that you could add another notch to your belt in the experience side and then utilize this upon entering your grad programme, whereas leaving now, well you would have given up 1) a fantastic opportunity (from the sounds of it) and 2) could only truly have "experience" post grad that would be marginal to a design studio or other firm. I know many have said that this job will be there when you are done (or others like it) but no job is every truly the same.
I don't know...it is a tough decision mate, all i must say to you is: ask yourself (deep down) what is it that will make you happiest now (or in this next year) and then things will start to really become a bit more clear, if not quite focused.
If they offered you a project of 1m sf without grad school; imagine when you return. Bite the bullet, don't be emotive about the decision it has to be made.
There is no price tag on knowledge....go to school have fun, join the archinect school blog
Thanks a lot guys.
Maybe what I am hesitant about is that this kind of chance is not quite likely to happen, even with a graduate degree or more experiences. I see that even at my office quite often. We've got people with ivy graduate degrees and people with years of experinece. They still don't necessarily get the kind of opportunity that I am now hanling with. There are all the factors of office politics of who gets to control, which partner you're on good terms, what kind of jobs you've been working at...etc. Fortunately, I was working with the associates who were very encouraging of me taking the initiative, and the firm was swarmed with so many projects that I was given the chance. I assume, if it was other firm (even at my firm at this stage) it would be harder to be in that kind of position for the project of this scale. Well... now I feel like becoming a chicken, too afraid to take the chance... stay in the familiar and guranteed place, or take the chance...
go back to school...
you'll be surprised how 1 year turns into 2, turns into 3 - you will then be forced with a similar decision on if you should stay to see the project through construction, other projects may start up
a lot of life can happen in that time and before you know it, you may not have the same options for grad school that you do now.
you mention your discontent for the developer driven projects (rightfully so) I would further suggest that after grad school you do not return to this firm. Take your experiences and move on.
Just to add to Squirrelly's last comment... what would make me happy now and next year... For short term, I would most likely enjoy the academic environment. I would love the learning and the heated discussion which I don't quite get at the office, because everyone's either too busy working, or not as interested in the matters as I do. If I stay, as much as I get the satisfaction of being at the center of the project, I would still get stress from the office politics and the inevitably closed minded corporate mentality, and from doing some other mundane projects that I still have work on. So, in short term, I would be still stressing out if I were at the office. However, the reason I'm still pondering on staying at the firm becomes more real once I start to think about my career. I'm not sure if this kind of thinking is right at this point of my career which has a long way to go. Maybe I'm getting impatient, and want a quick success whether for the critical practices that I would have wished to be at, or for the developer projects such as what I am working for now.
Last summer, I was at Glenn Murcutt Master Class in Australia. All of us young, or not so young architects at the master class had been fighting to keep our ideals and passion alive at work where the reality is not always the way we want it to be. We were truly inspired by the way these autralian masters, with their unwavering and idealistic conviction in their practice. When I explained some of my frustration of working for developers as clients, one of the architects, told me that I should not work for 'bad' people, but work under a master architect (not necessarily a starchitect, but someone whom I could respect and learn what I value as right. Back at the office, I soon readjusted to the mind of corporate/commercial firm, thinking more about career success than doing what I really wanted to do. My justification would be that I might be able to influence our firm in some way to a better direction although I know that it's not realistic.
Anyway, the more I think about this work and school, I begin to question my view on career, success, and the feasiblity of my passion.
well novas....one thing is definitely important, that being your sanity. If you feel that you're education and stimulation is most important at this stage in your life, then it seems like grad school is where you need to be heading. Believe me, and please do not misunderstand my comments for anything other than what they are based on (your initial quest - because I found grad school to be satisfying for me mostly, but not as a leverage tool in the "real world" if you will), nevertheless, the key issue is that if you think you may be missing an opportunity whilst at grad school because you passed up the opportunity to work on this 1msf bldg., then I can understand your indicisiveness. I can only agree with you that if you leave, you may never get that same opportunity again (the 1m sf bldg thingy) because no matter what people tell you (that it will be there when you get back) it WONT! You should not lie to yourself about that issue. That's not to say something similar might not spring up, however you are taking the future to be something that is guaranteed, or as a particular idea of what could be....and we don't live in the realm of those types of uncertainty...at least not in this profession (academia is different).
I am sure you get my drift. I understand your feelings on this, but permit me if you will, it sounds like - to me - that you are leaning heavily on going off to grad school (as you should).
The one thing I might add to this is that there are jobs always (at least we hope so) and you can take this experience (from these 2 yrs) to help you get another similar job (if you so choose) after grad school.
well.... if you decide to defer enrollment (most ivies don't allow you to do this and you'd have to reapply again next year with no guarantee of admissions) you have a short 3 year window of opportunity to go to grad school or give up your dream.
Why only 3 years, well the babyboomlet horde is rapidly moving into their college years and the first wave of them will be applying to grad school in 2010/2011- so get in while the getting in is good. There have been a smattering of stories about how tough it's becoming to be accepted into any name school with the undergrad applicant now being 8x as many spots as there are... you were warned that they are coming!
the other reason why you have only three years is your mind will turn into gooey slime if you stay in your current job slaving for the evil capitalist developers.
good luck.
oh, nova - is your grad school acceptance in the same city as the current job?
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