I was wondering if any one here had experience working at any of these firms in the D.C area. I got offers there which are all pretty decent, but I can't figure out which of them I should take. Some have swayed me with money, and some have attracted me with their experience. I am an entry level recent graduate and have very little experience, so I'm very new to the workings of how things work at firms.
So here they are:
DMJM Design
47k/year, all benefits, overtime, no bonuses
job description: model-making, sketching, construction documents, details, and presentation drawings
corporate environment -- some models, some drawings, and competition stuff
located in Arlington
Cooper Carry
43k/year, 2k signing bonus, good christmas bonuses, all benefits, overtime,
job description: heavily design oriented, sketching, site planning, hand rendering, 3d modeling and rendering, drawing, model making, and construction documents using microstation which they will train people to use.
not too big, not too small (50 people all together)
very architectural firm (models, renderings, and drawings everywhere), very nice office.
Located in Alexandria
From their website, Cooper Carry seems quite corporate. I would go with DMJM. It seems you could learn a lot more from construction documents this early in your career.
"Architectural" office aside, in my experience, DMJM produces more progressive work. Can't really speak for their VA office, though.
I'm not sure which job you should go with. But I don't think it's a very good idea to list names of firms in conjunction with specific dollar offers. Discussing your salary is grounds for dismissal in some firms (especially the large corporate kind with HR people and lengthy staff handbooks).
Actually, I figured that meant, "anyone who's willing to pay you 47k knows that they are offering you the most soul-sucking job imaginible and is trying to put money where your soul used to be."
Formerlyunknown, sorry about that. I was a little sketchy about pasting that kind of information at first. But I'll make sure that isn't the case anymore.
Thanks for pointing it out.
cc14, I just looked at many D.C. area offices. I am from the area so I decided to look around and what I did was send out resumes and then portfolio samples.
Rationalist, I thought that at first, but when I read the job description, it sounded pretty good. All of the firms I interviewed at looked pretty legit and had excellent first class people working there including the principles.
Don't assume that the job description you were shown or told will actually have anything to do with what you'll be doing. Firms lie, all the time. Sometimes they know they're lying, and sometimes they start out with a certain intention and it doesn't work out. Look around at the people at your level there- do they look happy? Are they actually building models and sketching, or are they hunching, defeated, over their computers? Oh, and check out Inside Arch to see what other interns have to say about these firms.
Yeah, I looked at the website and I actually went to both firms. Everyone looked nice and peachy. And yes, people were sketching, building models, and there were even rooms that had suply material for madel-making.
I'm really big into rendering and 3d modeling and both places asured me that I would get to do stuff like that.
I have a year of experience at some relatively unknown firms. I interned summers and about 7 months before grad school. I was really good with computer stuff and rendering especially. But this to me is very little experience. I graduated from Georgia Tech in undergrad and then went to Columbia for grad school to get an M.Arch.
I admit that it exceeded my expectations, because the first offers I was getting were in the 35-38k levels in places like New York, Philly, Baltimore, and such. When D.C. firms started making offers, they were from 40-47k a year.
47k is extremely high, even with m.arch.
rationalist's soul sucking interpretation pretty much summed up my thoughts.
and yeah, firms tend to fabricate/stretch the truth, especially when they're looking to hire you-but not about salary.
i'd say hold out for a smaller design-oriented firm...
Vado, they were at architecture firms. See, they never did any computer modeling or rendering for any of their projects so they kinda pigeon holed me into doing all that stuff until I requested to be put on more construction projects. It was cool at first, but it got extremely annoying. Believe it or not many of their clients actually wanted to see digital models.
I actually prefer physical modeling, but either way I understand what you're talking about.
agreed with rationalist, LIG, holz.box, etc that the firm is prob willing to pay you higher to start out because youre about to be shoved into a position no one else wants- and they're lying to you about it. and you dont want to start out and then 3-6 months from now decide to leave- thats not a good look- you want to stay at the first firm for at least a year, but preferably 2-4yrs.
and that "position" youre about to be shoved into probably does a lot of government work (dont forget you are in DC) and if you have ever worked for the government before, you would know to run screaming away from that job.
the firm i work for, in dc, has a government studio- and they pay them "just enough" to get people to take the position because no one else wants it.
CD experience is fine at first- but that's not all you want to do- and just because youre starting out doesnt mean that is all you SHOULD be doing. you should be getting some design experience in as well- no matter if your firm is corporate or small. (and just because the website shows some "cool work" doesnt mean that work is actually happening at that office- as someone else pointed out).
my first year out, i have done conceptual design, schematic, CD's, CA, and a competition in China. yes at corporate firm and yes in DC.
and one other thing- the offers you mentioned- make sure that they have broken it down to an hourly rate that actually shows that $47k or $43k is your salary and not the "annual average" rate based on salary and a "normal" amount of overtime- sometimes these firms pull a fast one by including an average amount of overtime in the offer letter "salary" figure. lies lies lies...
Archmed, I too raised an eyebrow at your initial post. Others have made good points about the firms, so I won't re-hash what they said. HNTB recently moved offices. They used to have a really cool storefront space in Gallery Place. I'm not sure what their new office is like.
I can speak to location, however. Since you are from this area, you are undoubtedly aware of the Washington traffic situation. Selecting a firm in an environment that suits you could be almost as important as the job itself.
I worked in Tyson's Corner (miserable), the Golden Triangle (fast-paced), and now Georgetown (quirky neighborhood, lots of tourists, peaceful at times). I went to school in Old Town Alexandria and live in Arlington. Do you have specific questions about these areas, or do you know them well?
In my opinion, proximity to Metro is key in selecting a place of employment...
DCA, nah I don't now much about either location. I was hoping to get some good insight about either one. Both places look pretty top knotch to me. I want to be able to live close to whichever firm I end up choosing. I have a car, but it would be nice to able to take the metro or walk occasionally. Is this possible?
HNTB does have a nice new office as a matter of fact, it's pretty sweet looking and the location is awesome. Oh and the staff I met were extremely friendly and helpful. But at this point, I'm looking for a place that I will be able to learn a lot from. It seems like the two finalists I mentioned are good for people in my position at this point.
I work at a large firm, and 47k for an intern's salary does not sound unreasonable, particularly for the DC area (though I am a little jealous). There is a without question a huge difference in pay between boutique and corporate firms. I've worked at both. "Soul sucking" is pretty vague, and I think a way for people who work in boutique firms to justify the low pay. Sure, you're probably going to be doing a lot of CDs, but is that soul sucking? I don't think so. Frankly at any firm, boutique or not, you're probably not going to be designing much more than details anyway with only a few years of experience.
The only firm people on this firm will agree on is a starchitect firm, earning a lousy 15k a year, no overtime, no bonus, no benefits. That is what archinectors are all about.
im @ corporate- and i love all the benefits corporate has to offer... ive worked at small and large firms... and i'm not all about the starchitect firm. in fact, i'm pretty much against working for one- but maybe that's just me.
make sure the firm is giving you something more than just monetary compensation. you want to feel like you left there and actually learned something- not just gained a 401k. and they should be encouraging if you have other endeavors- like (GASP) maybe you want to do some research or you want to volunteer to teach for Architecture in the Schools with the Washington Architectural Foundation... you can learn a lot about the real culture of the firm when you ask how supportive they are of things like that.
and i know this is hard for some people just out of school to comprehend- but getting your architectural license isnt the "be all end all" of the profession...
Which Firm should I go with?
Good day all,
I was wondering if any one here had experience working at any of these firms in the D.C area. I got offers there which are all pretty decent, but I can't figure out which of them I should take. Some have swayed me with money, and some have attracted me with their experience. I am an entry level recent graduate and have very little experience, so I'm very new to the workings of how things work at firms.
So here they are:
DMJM Design
47k/year, all benefits, overtime, no bonuses
job description: model-making, sketching, construction documents, details, and presentation drawings
corporate environment -- some models, some drawings, and competition stuff
located in Arlington
Cooper Carry
43k/year, 2k signing bonus, good christmas bonuses, all benefits, overtime,
job description: heavily design oriented, sketching, site planning, hand rendering, 3d modeling and rendering, drawing, model making, and construction documents using microstation which they will train people to use.
not too big, not too small (50 people all together)
very architectural firm (models, renderings, and drawings everywhere), very nice office.
Located in Alexandria
Others I recieved offers from:
HNTB
Leo A. Daly
Arch Inc.
So any good suggestions? Thanks in advanced.
dmjm is awful- unless you like engineered based government work. cooper cary- unfamiliar.
have you tried smithgroup or rtkl (quality work)?
From their website, Cooper Carry seems quite corporate. I would go with DMJM. It seems you could learn a lot more from construction documents this early in your career.
"Architectural" office aside, in my experience, DMJM produces more progressive work. Can't really speak for their VA office, though.
47k full benifits out of school...damn
I'm not sure which job you should go with. But I don't think it's a very good idea to list names of firms in conjunction with specific dollar offers. Discussing your salary is grounds for dismissal in some firms (especially the large corporate kind with HR people and lengthy staff handbooks).
i say go with the one that will tell you who Deep Throat is and who really killed JFK.
Get design experience from a design firm. These are corporate. Get CD experience.
just out of curiosity for my own job search....were these positions listed or did u contact them and inquire about any openings?
47k? run for the hills as fast as you can
holz are you saying 47k is low???
Actually, I figured that meant, "anyone who's willing to pay you 47k knows that they are offering you the most soul-sucking job imaginible and is trying to put money where your soul used to be."
But that's just my interpretation.
Formerlyunknown, sorry about that. I was a little sketchy about pasting that kind of information at first. But I'll make sure that isn't the case anymore.
Thanks for pointing it out.
cc14, I just looked at many D.C. area offices. I am from the area so I decided to look around and what I did was send out resumes and then portfolio samples.
That's it really...
Rationalist, I thought that at first, but when I read the job description, it sounded pretty good. All of the firms I interviewed at looked pretty legit and had excellent first class people working there including the principles.
Don't assume that the job description you were shown or told will actually have anything to do with what you'll be doing. Firms lie, all the time. Sometimes they know they're lying, and sometimes they start out with a certain intention and it doesn't work out. Look around at the people at your level there- do they look happy? Are they actually building models and sketching, or are they hunching, defeated, over their computers? Oh, and check out Inside Arch to see what other interns have to say about these firms.
Yeah, I looked at the website and I actually went to both firms. Everyone looked nice and peachy. And yes, people were sketching, building models, and there were even rooms that had suply material for madel-making.
I'm really big into rendering and 3d modeling and both places asured me that I would get to do stuff like that.
what do these firms bill an hour for an entry level intern? this seems very high for someone with no experience.
$47k seems very high to me as well... Especially since I was making $48k in NYC with 9 years experience (albiet no degree) in 2004.
My billing rate at that time was $80 per hour.
Oh, yeah...
I have a year of experience at some relatively unknown firms. I interned summers and about 7 months before grad school. I was really good with computer stuff and rendering especially. But this to me is very little experience. I graduated from Georgia Tech in undergrad and then went to Columbia for grad school to get an M.Arch.
I admit that it exceeded my expectations, because the first offers I was getting were in the 35-38k levels in places like New York, Philly, Baltimore, and such. When D.C. firms started making offers, they were from 40-47k a year.
Apparently it is a good job market now.
47k is extremely high, even with m.arch.
rationalist's soul sucking interpretation pretty much summed up my thoughts.
and yeah, firms tend to fabricate/stretch the truth, especially when they're looking to hire you-but not about salary.
i'd say hold out for a smaller design-oriented firm...
rendering and model building arent really the billable jobs either. they usually are billed to marketing. clients dont wanna pay for those services.
holz, I thought so too, but it still seemed pretty legit when I talked with people who worked there.
Everything they said was what I wanted to hear, but that is why I'm having trouble deciding...
Vado, they were at architecture firms. See, they never did any computer modeling or rendering for any of their projects so they kinda pigeon holed me into doing all that stuff until I requested to be put on more construction projects. It was cool at first, but it got extremely annoying. Believe it or not many of their clients actually wanted to see digital models.
I actually prefer physical modeling, but either way I understand what you're talking about.
go with the firm that pays you overtime. if it's soul sucking, at least time and a half $ makes up for some of it.
dmjm isn't a 'star', but they're fair and you'll learn a lot. plus they are willing to pay.
agreed with rationalist, LIG, holz.box, etc that the firm is prob willing to pay you higher to start out because youre about to be shoved into a position no one else wants- and they're lying to you about it. and you dont want to start out and then 3-6 months from now decide to leave- thats not a good look- you want to stay at the first firm for at least a year, but preferably 2-4yrs.
and that "position" youre about to be shoved into probably does a lot of government work (dont forget you are in DC) and if you have ever worked for the government before, you would know to run screaming away from that job.
the firm i work for, in dc, has a government studio- and they pay them "just enough" to get people to take the position because no one else wants it.
CD experience is fine at first- but that's not all you want to do- and just because youre starting out doesnt mean that is all you SHOULD be doing. you should be getting some design experience in as well- no matter if your firm is corporate or small. (and just because the website shows some "cool work" doesnt mean that work is actually happening at that office- as someone else pointed out).
my first year out, i have done conceptual design, schematic, CD's, CA, and a competition in China. yes at corporate firm and yes in DC.
and one other thing- the offers you mentioned- make sure that they have broken it down to an hourly rate that actually shows that $47k or $43k is your salary and not the "annual average" rate based on salary and a "normal" amount of overtime- sometimes these firms pull a fast one by including an average amount of overtime in the offer letter "salary" figure. lies lies lies...
Archmed, I too raised an eyebrow at your initial post. Others have made good points about the firms, so I won't re-hash what they said. HNTB recently moved offices. They used to have a really cool storefront space in Gallery Place. I'm not sure what their new office is like.
I can speak to location, however. Since you are from this area, you are undoubtedly aware of the Washington traffic situation. Selecting a firm in an environment that suits you could be almost as important as the job itself.
I worked in Tyson's Corner (miserable), the Golden Triangle (fast-paced), and now Georgetown (quirky neighborhood, lots of tourists, peaceful at times). I went to school in Old Town Alexandria and live in Arlington. Do you have specific questions about these areas, or do you know them well?
In my opinion, proximity to Metro is key in selecting a place of employment...
DCA, nah I don't now much about either location. I was hoping to get some good insight about either one. Both places look pretty top knotch to me. I want to be able to live close to whichever firm I end up choosing. I have a car, but it would be nice to able to take the metro or walk occasionally. Is this possible?
HNTB does have a nice new office as a matter of fact, it's pretty sweet looking and the location is awesome. Oh and the staff I met were extremely friendly and helpful. But at this point, I'm looking for a place that I will be able to learn a lot from. It seems like the two finalists I mentioned are good for people in my position at this point.
I work at a large firm, and 47k for an intern's salary does not sound unreasonable, particularly for the DC area (though I am a little jealous). There is a without question a huge difference in pay between boutique and corporate firms. I've worked at both. "Soul sucking" is pretty vague, and I think a way for people who work in boutique firms to justify the low pay. Sure, you're probably going to be doing a lot of CDs, but is that soul sucking? I don't think so. Frankly at any firm, boutique or not, you're probably not going to be designing much more than details anyway with only a few years of experience.
punky, i don't get it.
you say go with the firm that pays overtime due to the soulsucking, yet
he stated both firms pay overtime....
The only firm people on this firm will agree on is a starchitect firm, earning a lousy 15k a year, no overtime, no bonus, no benefits. That is what archinectors are all about.
speak for yourself.
im @ corporate- and i love all the benefits corporate has to offer... ive worked at small and large firms... and i'm not all about the starchitect firm. in fact, i'm pretty much against working for one- but maybe that's just me.
make sure the firm is giving you something more than just monetary compensation. you want to feel like you left there and actually learned something- not just gained a 401k. and they should be encouraging if you have other endeavors- like (GASP) maybe you want to do some research or you want to volunteer to teach for Architecture in the Schools with the Washington Architectural Foundation... you can learn a lot about the real culture of the firm when you ask how supportive they are of things like that.
and i know this is hard for some people just out of school to comprehend- but getting your architectural license isnt the "be all end all" of the profession...
harold,
at least im making more than 15k...but still no overtime, bonuses
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