In the final stages of construction of a residence. The flooring is all maple except for the Bedroom where we are using 4'x10' sheets of hot rolled steel that are etched and blackened and then sealed with a uv protectant high gloss marine epoxy. (The floors ultimately have a dark tiger shark skin patina when the process is done...its stunning- well...I think so). The sealed floors maintain temperature and feel very similar to tile. It also works out particularly well in this application because the stairs are a single stringer riserless steel design that come up into the bedroom and the use of similar material gives the effect that the bedroom floor flows out of the room and down the stairs.
We are running into an unexpected problem however. Over a years worth working with engineers on the dead loading and testing of techniques and products didn't uncover this becasue all the tests were done on 1'x1' metal squares.
The plan was to install (glue down) a moisture seal/sound deadener underlayment and screw the metal (16 ga) into the wooden subfloor over the underlay....similar to a floating engineered wood floor. When we laid down the first sheet, it looked beautiful but we realized that there was a problem with the flatness of the steel sheets. When walking on them they pop in certain areas like sitting on the hood of a car but not nearly that dramatic.
The first batch of metal I received was not at all flat. I requested that the metal shop take it back. I sourced another purveyor and recieved some beautiful metal from the Netherlands. This stuff is flat flat but still there are very slight (almost undetectable by eye) waves in it across the 10 foot span and the wood subfloor is also not absolutely perfect. Both however are as good as could be expected... we wouldn't impress the scientific community but then again we're just building a modern house- its as good as it gets.
Intuitively I would have thought that the weight of the metal would flatten the sheets but like i said its so small you can't even see it with the eye, only when someone walks across them can you feel it strangely popping around (its def the metal not a loose piece of subflooring).
We considered gluing the underlayment down and then glueing the sheets of metal to the underlayment but over time I imagine that would separate.
We considered increasing the number of screws used, but it would turn into a comedy parallelling one of those kids games at chuckie cheeze where every time you knock the gopher head down in one spot it comes up in another.
We could glue the sheets directly to the subfloor before we screw them down and loose the underlayment but that has some drawbacks-
-First of all sound on the 1st floor is loud without the underlayment- think submarine.
-Secondly I don't know of a metal/wood glue (anyone?) I imagine it exists- but no experience with it myself.
-I also just don't like the idea of gluing it to the subfloor... maybe im just noncommital that way but it seems extreme.. i could get over it
What I would like to do is put down some type of foaming hardening spray down or trowel down rubbery foaming stuff that would create a sound barrier and adhere to metal and wood and fill up any airpockets created by the different topographies of the metal and wood. I need insight on products that would exists like this if anyone has any ideas please let me know- I am guessing someone with roofing experience might know of something.
Thanks all for reading and I would apprecieate any feedback or insight
I think you're over-thinking the assembly and making it more complicated that it should be. In other words, you have a KISS problem - Keep It Simple Stupid.
We've done a lot of blackened steel floors over the years and this has been our experience: Any "rolled" steel product is going to have a slight curvature to it. We use hot rolled 10 ga. 4'x8' sheets dry-fitted for accuracy, then glued down directly to the subfloor with a bad ass urethane based adhesive. It's nasty stuff from a VOC perspective, but once it's down, it's down for good (which is why we dry-fit each sheet) and will never pop. While the glue is drying/curing, we weight each sheet down with 6 5-gallon Home Depot buckets filled with sand. As for the sound deadening, if the floor is wood framed, we fill the joist cavities with acoustic batt insulation.
To protect the blackened finish, we seal the floor w/ beeswax.
My thought but it might mean nothing...at all. "Did you think about thermal expansion" Steel is known to grow alot with the change in temperature. It is a molecular fact. Be sure you have that in control before you start fastening things or you might be in for a big problem. I had this happen once in the desert. Product was fabricated in an air conditioned space, transported to the site where the temp could run as high as 125 degrees F. Damn thing buckled and the contractor was wondering why.
snooker- this was a consideration. Its going to be indoors in conditioned space so the temp shouldn't vary more than 10 degrees throughout the year. Nonetheless we designed the floor with spread room along the walls behind the base trim. My biggest concern actually was the expansion rate of the epoxy and how the two would move together. Epoxy manufacturer is confident- about to put them to the test.
Glacial - we've done steel floors in both residences and office TIs... We initially wanted to do a "glue it and screw it" installation w/ CS fasteners, but the price quadrupled to have each sheet pre-drilled/countersunk. The thermal expansion issue is really a non-factor because the install was in conditioned space (in all cases using in-floor hydronic heating), so there are no big temperature swings.
As far as the blackening process, each metal shop we work with seems to have their own formula & method which they seem unwilling to share...
ever since i read about steel floors used as torture devices in guantanamo prison to electricute the prisoners' feet, i can't help but see that image in my mind.
friend of mine installed one in her kitchen 15 years ago. she still has it just as the day 1. it has nicely aged and some of the floor got shiny.
there is this metal supply place in los angeles (sorry i can't remember the name) that designers did the whole retail area and the offices using mainly sheet steel, floors, walls everything, maybe you can call them if somebody here knows who they are.. like supermarket of metals or something..
sorry no big help but sympathy. i am also impressed how you got all these helpful responses from people without throwing you the usual smart ass comments. i guess it tells a lot about how you give and how you recieve.
there is also this all steel house being welded together by an artist, i think in texas, very austere looking house that border lines between a pure sculpture and pure architecture (sorry also no address).
good luck.
do you have to elctrically ground a steel floor?
If you want a real no-fuss steel floor - don't even pay to blacken it. We often take sheets of hot rolled and apply a coating of Penetrol. Let it dry then coat w/ beeswax. The hot rolled steel has a beautiful varied look with a lot of depth - shows all the markings from the steel shop!
Thanks everyone this is excellent- I have a bathroom vanity that is made of steel- just one very heavy piece of bent quarter inch mild... imagine an upside down "U" and I didn't want to blacken it- Im going to try out the beeswax for this- wish us luck and thanks for all the feedback. oh, and I haven't grounded the floor and hadn't even thought about having my electrician wire the floor... excellent home security?
This is a great post. I would be honored if I could email you directly. I have a few questions about steel flooring that are not relevant to this thread. I'm the owner of a metal design & fabrication business in Texas and may have some suggestions from my fabrication perspective. I actually started the business 4 months ago after being laid off as a design engineer. No more hostile takeovers for me.
I've actually been thinking about offering steel countertops. I already do a lot of mild steel furniture. Wish I would have seen Glacier's post earlier as I could have helped with the bowing / warpage problem. You found the answer......too thin....10G would be the minimum.
I'm familiar with "secret finishing" techniques on metal. I also agree that hot rolled would be best as it requires very little finish work. I do table tops at a 400 grit smoothness and various patina finishes. A ton of labor goes into it but they are for high-end clients. Hot Rolled looks very similiar to a very popular "antique black" finish. So much less work.
I have a few other installation thoughts that might be helpful.
My email is dev.ginther (at) gmail.com
Love to hear from you or any others who may be familiar with steel flooring or countertops. I'm subscribed to this thread or email me.
Jun 28, 12 2:47 am ·
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Hot rolled Mild steel flooring
In the final stages of construction of a residence. The flooring is all maple except for the Bedroom where we are using 4'x10' sheets of hot rolled steel that are etched and blackened and then sealed with a uv protectant high gloss marine epoxy. (The floors ultimately have a dark tiger shark skin patina when the process is done...its stunning- well...I think so). The sealed floors maintain temperature and feel very similar to tile. It also works out particularly well in this application because the stairs are a single stringer riserless steel design that come up into the bedroom and the use of similar material gives the effect that the bedroom floor flows out of the room and down the stairs.
We are running into an unexpected problem however. Over a years worth working with engineers on the dead loading and testing of techniques and products didn't uncover this becasue all the tests were done on 1'x1' metal squares.
The plan was to install (glue down) a moisture seal/sound deadener underlayment and screw the metal (16 ga) into the wooden subfloor over the underlay....similar to a floating engineered wood floor. When we laid down the first sheet, it looked beautiful but we realized that there was a problem with the flatness of the steel sheets. When walking on them they pop in certain areas like sitting on the hood of a car but not nearly that dramatic.
The first batch of metal I received was not at all flat. I requested that the metal shop take it back. I sourced another purveyor and recieved some beautiful metal from the Netherlands. This stuff is flat flat but still there are very slight (almost undetectable by eye) waves in it across the 10 foot span and the wood subfloor is also not absolutely perfect. Both however are as good as could be expected... we wouldn't impress the scientific community but then again we're just building a modern house- its as good as it gets.
Intuitively I would have thought that the weight of the metal would flatten the sheets but like i said its so small you can't even see it with the eye, only when someone walks across them can you feel it strangely popping around (its def the metal not a loose piece of subflooring).
We considered gluing the underlayment down and then glueing the sheets of metal to the underlayment but over time I imagine that would separate.
We considered increasing the number of screws used, but it would turn into a comedy parallelling one of those kids games at chuckie cheeze where every time you knock the gopher head down in one spot it comes up in another.
We could glue the sheets directly to the subfloor before we screw them down and loose the underlayment but that has some drawbacks-
-First of all sound on the 1st floor is loud without the underlayment- think submarine.
-Secondly I don't know of a metal/wood glue (anyone?) I imagine it exists- but no experience with it myself.
-I also just don't like the idea of gluing it to the subfloor... maybe im just noncommital that way but it seems extreme.. i could get over it
What I would like to do is put down some type of foaming hardening spray down or trowel down rubbery foaming stuff that would create a sound barrier and adhere to metal and wood and fill up any airpockets created by the different topographies of the metal and wood. I need insight on products that would exists like this if anyone has any ideas please let me know- I am guessing someone with roofing experience might know of something.
Thanks all for reading and I would apprecieate any feedback or insight
I think you're over-thinking the assembly and making it more complicated that it should be. In other words, you have a KISS problem - Keep It Simple Stupid.
We've done a lot of blackened steel floors over the years and this has been our experience: Any "rolled" steel product is going to have a slight curvature to it. We use hot rolled 10 ga. 4'x8' sheets dry-fitted for accuracy, then glued down directly to the subfloor with a bad ass urethane based adhesive. It's nasty stuff from a VOC perspective, but once it's down, it's down for good (which is why we dry-fit each sheet) and will never pop. While the glue is drying/curing, we weight each sheet down with 6 5-gallon Home Depot buckets filled with sand. As for the sound deadening, if the floor is wood framed, we fill the joist cavities with acoustic batt insulation.
To protect the blackened finish, we seal the floor w/ beeswax.
Hope this helps...
you could always buy a throw rug from Ikea to put over the floor
thanks dml
your the first I have found who has experience with this- Were you installations in a residence?
Are you blackening it with a PHOSPHORIC ACID based product?
Are you gluing and screwing?
Thanks,
Chris
My thought but it might mean nothing...at all. "Did you think about thermal expansion" Steel is known to grow alot with the change in temperature. It is a molecular fact. Be sure you have that in control before you start fastening things or you might be in for a big problem. I had this happen once in the desert. Product was fabricated in an air conditioned space, transported to the site where the temp could run as high as 125 degrees F. Damn thing buckled and the contractor was wondering why.
snooker- this was a consideration. Its going to be indoors in conditioned space so the temp shouldn't vary more than 10 degrees throughout the year. Nonetheless we designed the floor with spread room along the walls behind the base trim. My biggest concern actually was the expansion rate of the epoxy and how the two would move together. Epoxy manufacturer is confident- about to put them to the test.
would laying felt or even carpet pad under the steel floor prevent the poping? i dont have experience with steel floors
Just did a project with epoxy and recycled glass....no problems over concrete.....but concrete isn't steel.
Glacial - we've done steel floors in both residences and office TIs... We initially wanted to do a "glue it and screw it" installation w/ CS fasteners, but the price quadrupled to have each sheet pre-drilled/countersunk. The thermal expansion issue is really a non-factor because the install was in conditioned space (in all cases using in-floor hydronic heating), so there are no big temperature swings.
As far as the blackening process, each metal shop we work with seems to have their own formula & method which they seem unwilling to share...
ever since i read about steel floors used as torture devices in guantanamo prison to electricute the prisoners' feet, i can't help but see that image in my mind.
friend of mine installed one in her kitchen 15 years ago. she still has it just as the day 1. it has nicely aged and some of the floor got shiny.
there is this metal supply place in los angeles (sorry i can't remember the name) that designers did the whole retail area and the offices using mainly sheet steel, floors, walls everything, maybe you can call them if somebody here knows who they are.. like supermarket of metals or something..
sorry no big help but sympathy. i am also impressed how you got all these helpful responses from people without throwing you the usual smart ass comments. i guess it tells a lot about how you give and how you recieve.
there is also this all steel house being welded together by an artist, i think in texas, very austere looking house that border lines between a pure sculpture and pure architecture (sorry also no address).
good luck.
do you have to elctrically ground a steel floor?
Orhan- Are you referring to metal supermarket?
http://www.metalsupermarkets.com/
If you want a real no-fuss steel floor - don't even pay to blacken it. We often take sheets of hot rolled and apply a coating of Penetrol. Let it dry then coat w/ beeswax. The hot rolled steel has a beautiful varied look with a lot of depth - shows all the markings from the steel shop!
it was bobco metals.
Thanks everyone this is excellent- I have a bathroom vanity that is made of steel- just one very heavy piece of bent quarter inch mild... imagine an upside down "U" and I didn't want to blacken it- Im going to try out the beeswax for this- wish us luck and thanks for all the feedback. oh, and I haven't grounded the floor and hadn't even thought about having my electrician wire the floor... excellent home security?
Thanks,
glacial
dml955i or Glacier,
This is a great post. I would be honored if I could email you directly. I have a few questions about steel flooring that are not relevant to this thread. I'm the owner of a metal design & fabrication business in Texas and may have some suggestions from my fabrication perspective. I actually started the business 4 months ago after being laid off as a design engineer. No more hostile takeovers for me.
I've actually been thinking about offering steel countertops. I already do a lot of mild steel furniture. Wish I would have seen Glacier's post earlier as I could have helped with the bowing / warpage problem. You found the answer......too thin....10G would be the minimum.
I'm familiar with "secret finishing" techniques on metal. I also agree that hot rolled would be best as it requires very little finish work. I do table tops at a 400 grit smoothness and various patina finishes. A ton of labor goes into it but they are for high-end clients. Hot Rolled looks very similiar to a very popular "antique black" finish. So much less work.
I have a few other installation thoughts that might be helpful.
My email is dev.ginther (at) gmail.com
Love to hear from you or any others who may be familiar with steel flooring or countertops. I'm subscribed to this thread or email me.
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