I do not see that being worth the investment. There are plenty of other good graduate schools that can help you get your professional degree. One thing people often overlook when looking at architecture school of any level is the ARE pass rates, I would suggest taking that into account instead of a starchitect school.

Thanks for responding. I'm not wondering whether SCI Arc is a good school are not, or if SCI Arc is worth it - for me what makes a school good is highly subjective.  Cost-wise it's even pretty competitive. I'm wondering what people who are out of grad school with this kind of debt do. Can you survive ?

It seems like a really irresponsible decision to take on loans that I have doubts about being able to pay back. It's also seems irresponsible for the government, who studies and publishes average income rates by profession, to give out these loans in the first place. 

Cal Poly or Berkeley

"It seems like a really irresponsible decision to take on loans that I have doubts about being able to pay back."

you got that right - what do you think will happen if Mitt Romney gets elected and you just committed the big sin of debt? - don't do it. it will be the biggest mistake of your life

- there is way too many of us and not enough jobs and this drives up the qualifications while driving down the pay.

Let's not forget the 3 years you could be out working and earning money... Say you're lucky enough to find a job that pays 40K.  That's 120k plus $ 363,803 that you would have to fork out if you choose grad school.

I don't buy this, "I'm not going into architecture or grad school because I want to get rich someday."  With the costs of schooling, its safe to say that almost everyone who choose that route wants to become an established architect or atleast have a comfortable life taking on their own projects someday.  Because honestly, why go to school if that wasn't your intention.  You could stay home and learn on your own just as much.

but seriously... college is ridiculously expensive in US.  My loans for undergrad here in Canada came up to only 28K for 4 years with plenty of travelling and I've been complaining about that and wondering how I'm going to pay it back xD

aq,

Its really terrific that you are taking the time now to determine if getting into that much debt is appropriate. 

I urge you to speak with your family and other professionals to gain additional perspectives on what this level of debt really means. School debt of that magnitude in this profession is not justified.

If you don't have scholarships, grants, parental support, the ability to live at home, etc...anything to pull down the amount of loans, then I strongly urge you to reconsider.

Your estimate of a starting salary after grad school of $70K is not realistic.

Read AIA salary surveys, talk to professionals, etc but in general, graduates from  M.Arch programs with 0-2 years of experience could expect a starting salary the first year out of school between $28K - $55K annually IF they are lucky enough to find a job after graduation. The salary range is dependent on geographic region, type of firm and individual applicant qualifications/experience. Some of your classmates will be able to find jobs after graduation. But the majority of your graduating class will not be employed after graduation and will take upwards of 6months-1yr to find employment. Some will not be employable and will move on to other fields (with their debt in tow).

Archinectors - is this a fair estimate?

This financial survey from AIAS should shed some light on the situation.

http://www.aias.org/website/article.asp?id=2215

$180k in debt for a piece of paper would be one of the stupidest decisions someone could make in my opinion. Probably on the verge of financial suicide as well. 

For that amount of money you could buy a couple of foreclosures, rehab them and rent them out. That would be a much better education and return on your investment.

Again... just my opinion.

I am not sure if the people stating you should work instead understand that you do not possess a professional degree, hence your interest in the M.Arch 1 program of Sci-Arc (unless I am mistaken). It doesn't take a person in dept with a masters degree to know that your current situation and proposal is a financially horrible one if you intend to accumulate that much dept. Subjective choice or not, I would still suggest trying to find a school better fit for your situation.

Sci-Arc is a good school, but it is not remotely worth that. Only having $65k in debt after grad school has hurt my opportunities—I cannot imagine what $180k would be like. You won't be able to move to new areas to try and find jobs, you won't be able to take jobs at smaller firms that can't pay you as well, even if you'll do more exciting work and get better experience. 

This is not a subjective choice, it is clear. People go to school to better their situation in life, and this will hurt your situation in life. Find a school that has a lower price tag, a school that will offer you some support financially. And you don't need $25,000/year during grad school to live on, that's indulgent and silly. Only take out what you need to live, and get a job that helps pay for that so that it's not all on loan. Also, if this is that important to you, haven't you been saving for it, putting a little something aside that can contribute as well? I think you can attack this problem from both sides, by finding a more affordable school and by better preparing yourself for it.

Only in America would anyone ever dream that this is remotely a "possibility".  In the sense that you would be able to have this loan amount and live an actual life, this is not possible.  You should not even consider this an option, because it is not, at all.  

And to the person who said the OP can't get a job b/c s/he doesn't have a professional degree yet - who said the only jobs in the world are architecture jobs?  If you want it that bad, go work some other job for awhile until you can save up enough to make architecture school a possibility.  Again: this deal is not remotely a possibility.

Also, I'm not sure who told you you could make $70k out of school... unless you're thinking of some kind of lifetime average salary?  I'm in my 30s and only one of the architects I know makes that much... he's about mid-30s, licensed, and has worked for a very large corporate firm for about 10 years or so.  I think he's right around $70k or so.  Everyone else I know with about 10 years experience (who is lucky enough to actually still have a job in architecture) makes between about $50k-60k.  And the rest lost their jobs and have permanently left the architecture workforce at this point.  So you'll need to recalibrate your expectations a bit... Do not take on that much debt or you will be miserable for the rest of your life, and pass it on to any unfortunately children you have.

Mantaray: good advice.. I may have to take up a job in a different field and save up until I'm ready for grad school.  Working in architecture doesn't allow me to save up much, let alone working like a CAD monkey and stress.  All I do at this level is adjust walls, line up washrooms, edit ceiling plans - I'd learn more and earn more taking up jobs like a graphic design position or so

I wouldn't do it unless you can find a way to work part-time in an architectural office at a reasonable salary that would help cover living costs. My masters degree has yet to bring me any financial gain. BArch 2004, worked in firm from then until 2007, where I got some very good experience. Went to IIT for grad in fall 2007, landed a new part-time job that paid more, mostly due to Chicago being a bigger market. That was the last real raise I ever got. Finished grad school and managed to stay employed for the most part, but that 3 years working from 04-07 is really what put me in position to survive the recession, and that grad school degree has brought me no value as of yet. Not that it won't eventually, and certainly not that I didn't learn a lot, but you get the point.

Are you a resident of California? If you are is not UCLA or Berkely far more affordable? Both are good schools also. If I were you I would look seriously into those options.

^ so it doesn't matter if you're from the same country?  You pay higher tuition because you're from a different state?  unheard of xD  welcome to America

Yeah I think that's how it works. I am not America so I am not 100% sure. I have heard that "state" schools in California are cheaper for people that are residents of that state.

As an undergraduate at a lot of American schools you will have to pay almost double the tuition if you go to a school in another state that a person that is living in that state. And then some states offer additional scholarships to residents.

I had seen people at the university I went to get a tuition cut because their parent worked for the university, they were already paying low tuition for being an instate student, they got another tuition cut/scholarship for being a minority, and then another I believe for coming out of high school with an alright GPA. All in all he was actually receiving money from the university instead of having to pay tuition, and then failed out of architecture school, blew all the money he got on alcohol, and switched to an english major and got another series of scholarships. So I learned that since I was paying out of state tuition I was partially subsidizing his education, partially funding his parent's salary, and he was just there to have a good time. If I wasn't so naive coming out of high school I would have chosen a different school....me, bitter? maybe....

And then I've also known students from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, whose government pays all of their tuition.

^ I'm seriously thinking of doing grad school in Europe if I can... I believe schools like the IOA in Vienna (infact all universities in Austria) pay your entire tuition regardless of which country you're from as long as you get accepted :)

I had a friend do a year at the ETH and she was given 1000 euros a month...

^ I forgot to mention she is Canadian

Grad school in America is a different financial situation depending on the school (some waive partial, or full tuition depending on their rule set and the program). And also I left out that Cooper Union waives tuition for undergraduates. 

^key word being "some"

some also decide that since MArch is a professional degree that they will give minimum if any financial aid, because professional degrees are supposed to lead to higher paying careers (MBA, JD, etc.)

There is absolutely no reason an architect needs more than 4 years "institutional" education.  To continue to support this nonsensical system is to be complicit in it's crime.  Many an architect own and run their own practices on far less education with better results.  

Is SCI Arc that expensive? :O I thought it cost about 40k. Am I wrong? I know LA is expensive city, but 60K a year? wow...

I think wild card here is that with Sci Arc degree you are most likely to end up with a job that pays in moon-space dollars. So it could be worth it if the austerity measures on Mars are successful.

Sci-Arc is a good school that can get you places. However UCLA is far cheaper especially if you are a resident of California and is very similar to Sci-Arc. So if I were in your position I would take the a year off, become a resident of California and try for UCLA. 

Tee002, it's important to include living expenses in your calculations. The original poster specified that the tuition is $35000, so he is budgeting $25000/year for his living expenses and assuming he won't work for any of it.

From a pure investment (return on capital) standpoint, a MARCH degree is a poor use of your time and money. Based on changes in starting salary and employment upon graduation, most top-tier MBA programs would be a better bet - i.e. you'd stand to earn more immediately upon graduation. Most MBA grads get signing bonuses and well paid summer internships while they are in school.

Private schools like SCI Arc are great but in 15-20 years, I don't believe that a potential client or employer is going to hire you because you attended SCI Arc vs. a state school.
What you do with your degree is ultimately more important than where you received it and once your licensed most people don't really care where you went to school.
Also, in California, you can get licensed with a 4 year degree so I'd even challenge the need for a MARCH degree.
 

People who give advice on forums are often blind to the reality that attending both undergrad and graduate school in the states is extremely expensive. I think it's usually  it's older people whose children didn't experience this mess, or it's foreigners. Even wealthier families are starting to feel the large burden of education costs. As I am planning for school, I just look at what I could realistically survive on (assuming a salary of 40K within 6M after school). You would have to live an ascetic lifestyle with 180K in debt, and it almost definitely would not be worth it. 

If you're going to pay 1,515.77 every month for twenty years, is it worth it? I'm not offending anyone from SA. Just try to crunch some number. I'm pretty sure life will be really tough for about 5 years after graduation. I assume you've to be paid at least 3000 a month after tax. It is the only possibility that you're going to have some breathing room. Besides, everything in life has to be almost perfect. Your job security, health, family …..I don’t think I can manage to do that.

" I assume you've to be paid at least 3000 a month after tax"

that would be roughly a $50k/year job in NYC (3 types of taxes). I know a few registered architects in NYC that make that or less. Assume you'll make at least $1,515.77 every month and go from there.

It is possible that economy recovers one day, and salaries go up, but don't hold your breath.

I'm about to go to Yale, I'm having major second thoughts as well, and I'm not accruing any debt.

If I was graduating with your debt it would be way easier --I wouldn't go. 

Just a personal comment that is unrelated for the most part. I'd rather get dept from Yale than Sci-Arc, in large part to the differences in networks.

RZTZ: how much does it cost each year to attend Yale?

Anyone know if the fees for most grad schools in US are quite similar?  How much is it to attend GSD or Columbia?

Depends which program you're going into, if you have a 4 year architecture degree, 5 year, or neither. That means tuition can be around 50k total without aid or well over 100k without aid for the whole program.

but you have to remember that GSD and Columbia aren't "most grad programs in the US." They are top-ranked private schools. On the other hand, public schools can have tuition of $10,000 or in some cases less, are more likely to offer TAships or fellowships, or have a plethora of other on-campus jobs. 

As a post graduate it would be cheaper for me to go to GSD than Yale or Columbia and a lot of other school's really. GSD somehow has made their program affordable comparatively (emphasis on the word comparatively). And Rice is a great program that would most likely be cheaper than most. And others offer teaching assistanships or fellowship like rationalist said. You really have to look at each school and its individual programs, their alumni, their region, their staff, and their current student work.

$25,000 a year for living expenses is so out of line. If this is why grads are coming out of school with tremendous amounts of debt, then I don't feel sorry for them. College is expensive, like daycare! And you don't even get a degree for attending daycare. You probably get snacks at daycare though.

accesskb: Yale can be generous in aid. GSD and MIT in my experience can also be generous if you truly show talent. 

In my experience Columbia is by far the most expensive school to go to. But it does seem enjoyable overall. 

Most private/ivy league schools without aid will be 50k+/year. Once again nobody should endorse taking out more than 60k total debt for an architecture degree. Your odds at becoming the next Bjarke Ingels are really not that great. I'd imagine the monthly debt payments when you're trying to raise a 2 year old daughter will be pretty detrimental to your happiness. 

or the more new graduates in dept who cant find a place to live because they cannot afford it and therefore cannot work, means less competition among the already overcrowded employee pool....hm....

I'm still waiting on all those legions of upper management that are "supposed" to be retiring...supposed to be...

I don't know how the typical graduate will come out with anything less than 60-70,000 including undergrad. This of course doesn't factor in if they have an assistantship. If you look at the realistic figures, the average undergrad (from any bg) is coming out with around $30,000-35,000 when you factor in all additional private loans that may not be counted in data and credit card debt. Even if you attended one of the cheapest in-state programs in the country, and worked part-time, there is absolutely no way you wouldn't  walk out with another 15,000 in loans. Factor in interest over that time and you're close to 60K.

3 years ago, people thought that higher Ed was a good idea if you had no job. Ride out the recession, get a higher paying job when it's over in a couple years. But we're still in a recession.......

I had just a bit over $60k in debt when I graduated and it has been very difficult to pay down.  I have been very lucky and have almost always had continuous, moderately-paying employment so I've never had to defer the loans, but I am still looking at years stretching ahead of me to pay them off.  My calculations suggest that my children will be going to college themselves at the time that I will finally make the last payment.  This means a) I am having trouble saving for a house, so that I am not sure when I will be able to buy one (and I'm in my 30s!  Everyone else I know owns a house already.)  (For an architect, owning a home means being able to experiment/showcase your own work right there, so to me it would be a help to my practice...so I feel stymied professionally that I can't afford one.)  and it means b) that I can't afford to be without work, so that I had to take time off from the profession during this recession in order to continue paying my bills - that decision of course may have repercussions for my future employability.  and c) it means I won't be able to save easily for my children's future tuition.  

Debt = shackles.  Do not voluntarily put yourself in unnecessary shackles.  Some debt is unavoidable for higher education in the states, to be sure - but understand that you will have severely restricted opportunities for a good portion of the rest of your life, corresponding to the amount you take out.  With just over $60k in debt I have been paying $500/month for years.  That is a LOT of money out of your monthly income.  With $1500 payments you will need to bring home at least $3500 a month after taxes, assuming you live in a medium-priced city, rent-wise, and do NOT have a family or ANY dependents to support.  This means a yearly salary of minimum $55,000, every single year, from the day you graduate till the day you pay off your loans with no interruption in employment.  That is not realistic in this industry.

Any liability you take on to make an investment needs to balanced against the expected return that investment can generate to pay down and remove the liability. It also should not be so big that marginal fluctuations in income can be catastrophically multiplied by debt leverage.

Borrow a concept from our clients, the real estate guys, and think about it using capitalization rates. You want to purchase an education which will qualify you to obtain an annual income stream via employment. After deducting all your other projected annual expenses, costs, taxes, etc. that you spend to live your life, that income stream will annually generate a certain amount of profit for you. That's the maximum amount that will be available to pay down the loans. That amount in dollars divided by the amount of the loan principal yields a percentage. That's the "cap rate" of your education, qua investement. Of course, there is interest on the loans as well, but we'll set that aside for a minute.

A cap rate under 10% is going to be very difficult to justify from internal returns as an investment unless you are a speculator depending on capital appreciation (in this case, that would mean expecting consistently big raises as you go along). Depending on capital appreciation for gains is a gamble, not an investment. So, as a rule of thumb, it would be extremely foolish to take student loan debt in excess of the gross amount you can expect to earn in your first year of full-time work out of school. That assumes that you can probably swing paying down 10% of the student loan principal per year out of your income without causing a major hardship or introducing a major risk of default.

Since entry-level architects typically can expect to make somewhere around $35K to $45K right out of school right now, there's your answer. Any penny you pay over that amount in student loans to get an architecture degree is extremely risky to your personal financial well being. Don't do it.

IBR

I second that - Don't do it